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Meatpants
Meatpants
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on May 25th 2019, 2:26 am
@Kilius

>When you have Fisto higher than Jinn as a duelist

Reasons?

Master Azronger
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on May 25th 2019, 3:05 am
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
Azronger wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
Azronger wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
Azronger wrote:1. Luke Skywalker/Palpatine/Darth Krayt
2. Yoda/Darth Vader
3. Mace Windu/Obi-Wan Kenobi/Darth Plagueis
4. Darth Tyranus/Darth Wyyrlok III
5. Darth Maul/Darth Tenebrous
What makes you put Sidious over Yoda and what is your reasoning for Krayt being so high? (not disagreeing btw, just curious)

The Emperor's clone bodies were stronger than his original, so he could use Force augmentation to a greater extent than in RotS. And with Krayt, it's basically him growing immensely more powerful from already giving peak Kenobi hell.
1. What evidence is there to support that Krayt continued to improve his saber skills and not just his power in the force? Of course being more powerful in the force means better aug but unless he actually continued to improve as a duelist, I'm not sold that he should be top 3 over Yoda

2. Does better aug really cover the gap between Yoda and Palps as duelists tho? Didn't when Yoda go all out he stomped with a blade pretty quickly? That could be incorrect but I recall seeing someone say that
1. Krayt states he "honed his skills in the Clone Wars and [has] killed thousands of opponents since then, and Insider # 113 states "Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades." Furthermore, Force strength and lightsaber prowess are inextricably linked: one affects the other deeply. With Krayt, this can be seen in his respective fights against Cade Skywalker where he stomps a more powerful Cade in just a few moves whereas earlier, still encased in the vonduun armor, he had a decent fight against a weaker, less experienced Cade. Krayt didn't get more skilled between the two engagements, merely more powerful, yet that in itself was enough to create a large difference.

2. Yoda used a concentrated burst of speed to disarm Sidious, and Sidious had an environmental disadvantage. Multiple quotes state they're equals in dueling. By Dark Empire, the Reborn Emperor should definitely have surpassed Yoda.
Fair enough on Krayt. Also how Did Sidious have an environmental advantage? I've seen many people say that but I've never seen anyone actually elaborate on how he had an advantage

No, I just said he had a disadvantage, not an advantage.
Master Azronger
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on May 25th 2019, 3:15 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Azronger wrote:With Krayt, this can be seen in his respective fights against Cade Skywalker where he stomps a more powerful Cade in just a few moves

That fight was anything but a stomp or "just a few moves," lol.
Eh?
Greatest Lightsaber Duelists - Page 2 Krayt_14
They're only seen clashing lightsabers once, and in the next panel Cade is pinned to the floor, and that was the end of the martial portion of the fight. We only saw Krayt make two moves, so yes, that qualifies as "a stomp" "in just a few moves" to me.
Meatpants
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on May 25th 2019, 1:27 pm
List I’ve been thinking about: PREQUEL JEDI

Tier 9
1 & 2. Anakin / Yoda

Tier 8
3. Windu
4. Dooku (Jedi)
5. Kenobi
6 & 7. ???Yaddle / Qui-Gon ???

Tier 7

6 & 7. ???Yaddle/Qui-Gon???
8. Ki-Adi Mundi
9. Fisto / Tiin / Kolar
10. Sharad Hett

Blade_of_Dorin
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on May 25th 2019, 5:26 pm
Azronger wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
Azronger wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
Azronger wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
Azronger wrote:1. Luke Skywalker/Palpatine/Darth Krayt
2. Yoda/Darth Vader
3. Mace Windu/Obi-Wan Kenobi/Darth Plagueis
4. Darth Tyranus/Darth Wyyrlok III
5. Darth Maul/Darth Tenebrous
What makes you put Sidious over Yoda and what is your reasoning for Krayt being so high? (not disagreeing btw, just curious)

The Emperor's clone bodies were stronger than his original, so he could use Force augmentation to a greater extent than in RotS. And with Krayt, it's basically him growing immensely more powerful from already giving peak Kenobi hell.
1. What evidence is there to support that Krayt continued to improve his saber skills and not just his power in the force? Of course being more powerful in the force means better aug but unless he actually continued to improve as a duelist, I'm not sold that he should be top 3 over Yoda

2. Does better aug really cover the gap between Yoda and Palps as duelists tho? Didn't when Yoda go all out he stomped with a blade pretty quickly? That could be incorrect but I recall seeing someone say that
1. Krayt states he "honed his skills in the Clone Wars and [has] killed thousands of opponents since then, and Insider # 113 states "Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades." Furthermore, Force strength and lightsaber prowess are inextricably linked: one affects the other deeply. With Krayt, this can be seen in his respective fights against Cade Skywalker where he stomps a more powerful Cade in just a few moves whereas earlier, still encased in the vonduun armor, he had a decent fight against a weaker, less experienced Cade. Krayt didn't get more skilled between the two engagements, merely more powerful, yet that in itself was enough to create a large difference.

2. Yoda used a concentrated burst of speed to disarm Sidious, and Sidious had an environmental disadvantage. Multiple quotes state they're equals in dueling. By Dark Empire, the Reborn Emperor should definitely have surpassed Yoda.
Fair enough on Krayt. Also how Did Sidious have an environmental advantage? I've seen many people say that but I've never seen anyone actually elaborate on how he had an advantage

No, I just said he had a disadvantage, not an advantage.
Sorry I read that wrong, how was he at a disadvantage then, lol?
DarthAnt66
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on May 25th 2019, 6:00 pm
@Blade_of_Dorin: I would say it's more that Yoda had an environmental advantage, given he could easily exploit his size and agility in the Senate pod.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on May 25th 2019, 6:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
DarthAnt66
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on May 25th 2019, 6:01 pm
Azronger wrote:Eh?
They're only seen clashing lightsabers once, and in the next panel Cade is pinned to the floor, and that was the end of the martial portion of the fight. We only saw Krayt make two moves, so yes, that qualifies as "a stomp" "in just a few moves" to me.

I promised ILS I wouldn't dive into it now, but I'll hold off on extensive commentary until then.
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on May 25th 2019, 6:13 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@Blade_of_Dorin: I would say it's more that Yoda had an environmental advantage, given he could easily exploit his size and agility in the Senate pod.

Yeah um... that also plays to his disadvantage, if we assume Sheev and Yoda are comparable (like any reasonable human being) we have to take into account the fact that he is smaller and therefore more likely to be thrown around, Sheev is striking with the combined strength of Maul and Savage with each blow, Yoda would have to be taking a more defensive stance something we know he doesn't like dueling. For me personally I see both sides as hindered, since Yoda was trying to dance circles around sheev, while not falling off the pod imo.
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on May 25th 2019, 6:14 pm
In-sidiousvader wrote:This is hard, I will not be acknowledging NJO as in my headcanon it never happened, and it just muddies things up.
Theoretically if I were to include the NJO it might take up my entire list, so instead I have opted for a specific way of thinking, I will be ranking duelists during the time-frame of the original 7 star wars films, this includes EU backround but excludes TOR, KOTOR, NJO etc... only TCW, Empire era, and pre TPM and onwards will be analyzed.

Arguable: ROTJ Luke (enraged) but I don't think his victory over Vader really had anything to do with skill, Luke overpowered Vader in a direct Blade lock, for reference Luke was incapable of sustaining a basic bladelock with a holding back Vader, so the amp was significant, not going to get into this, but suffice it to say, Luke may be the Greatest Duelist period even at this stage.
1: The single greatest duelist of the entire Filmverse including EU material is Darth Vader: being more skilled than Anakin skywalker simply puts him here otherwise he would be far far lower.
Honorable mention/1.5: MF Kenobi, Lord Vader have mercy, contending with MFV puts him this high, but if this doesn't prove "the force" is a mguffin what does?
2: Yoda, this guy is breaching Anakin's paygrade but still below him
3: Count Dooku, you think Sheev is tough? you think Sheev is a god tier swordsman? Do some research and you will see Dooku dueling wank is OP
4: Darth Sidious, only this low because Yoda and Dooku have better showings, Dooku specifically facing off against Yoda and doing far better than sheev himself did (Though this was a superior Yoda to the one Dooku fought)
5: Asharad Hett, this guy probably confuses you all and he could easily be moved lower if the MF revelation was a one time amp, but seeing as how it likely carried over, this Tusken did damn fine against the guy who held off MFV... he deserves higher, but I am keeping him low because he is so damn unquantifiable, plus Kenobi was arguably hindered, and holding back perhaps.
6: Asajj Ventress could be above this Mace, to be honest.
7: The General of the CIS
8: Le Mace Windu, ffs why is this character so lame? He's got a neat book that provides an introspective on war, but WHY??? I want to like Mace I want to rank him higher, but without his Vaapad amp he is nothing special.
9: F*cking Maul
10: The stupidity that is Qui-gon Jinn

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on May 25th 2019, 6:23 pm
In-sidiousvader wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@Blade_of_Dorin: I would say it's more that Yoda had an environmental advantage, given he could easily exploit his size and agility in the Senate pod.

Yeah um... that also plays to his disadvantage, if we assume Sheev and Yoda are comparable (like any reasonable human being) we have to take into account the fact that he is smaller and therefore more likely to be thrown around, Sheev is striking with the combined strength of Maul and Savage with each blow, Yoda would have to be taking a more defensive stance something we know he doesn't like dueling. For me personally I see both sides as hindered, since Yoda was trying to dance circles around sheev, while not falling off the pod imo.

Not only that but we also have to consider it was Sidious who choose the to move the fight to the Podium in the first place. Why? Because he was already on the run in his office:

"The thought gave Yoda renewed energy, and he pressed his attack. He drove Palpatine back across the room, into the Chancellors podium.” -RotS JN

"PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space." - RotS Script



(cut to 1:08)

Anyone want to argue Sidious's office is an environmental advantage for Yoda?

It's never been stated in any source Yoda had the environmental advantage and even if he did he already had the advantage in the office anyways. If Sidious deliberately hindered himself or was ignorant of any inherent environmental disadvantage then it only hurts his standing as a duelist.
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on May 25th 2019, 7:10 pm
^^^
SithSauce
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on May 26th 2019, 8:43 am
In no particular order Luke, Sidious, Yoda, Mace Dooku, Vader/Anakin, Obi Wan, Exar Kun, Darth Bane, Darth Malak, Darth Zannah
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on May 26th 2019, 11:05 am
I'll just note down the top 2 in each era.

TOR:

Revan and The Outlander (can't decide which of them is better as there isn't a way to compare them).

PT:

Anakin and Yoda (Anakin is 1 and Yoda is 2).

OT:

Galen Marek and Sidious (can't decide which of them is better as there isn't a way to compare them).

Not knowledgeable enough on other eras to say tbh.
Meatpants
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on May 26th 2019, 11:15 am
How is Galen Marek > Luke???
Sjuttiosju
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on May 26th 2019, 11:30 am
GM Luke is obviously the best.

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on May 26th 2019, 11:33 am
Paddlepants wrote:How is Galen Marek > Luke???

How is Luke > Galen? Given the thread is including Force augmentation and ROTJ Luke obviously doesn't have comparable Force feats to Galen I fail to see how he's on his level.
Meatpants
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on May 26th 2019, 11:53 am
What kind of logic is that? That’s like me saying Sora Bulq > Qui-Gon as a duelist because he’s got better Force feats.
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on May 26th 2019, 11:58 am
A superior connection to the force generally results in better lightsaber dueling ability. Both are connected.

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on May 26th 2019, 11:59 am
Paddlepants wrote:What kind of logic is that? That’s like me saying Sora Bulq > Qui-Gon as a duelist because he’s got better Force feats.

That's not the same thing though. In Jinn's case, he has his performance against Maul to prove he's better than Bulq. In Luke's case, he has nothing close to Galen in terms of Force feats and has no dueling feats against established characters to make up for it.
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on May 26th 2019, 12:00 pm
@LOTL wrote:A superior connection to the force generally results in better lightsaber dueling ability. Both are connected.

Meatpants
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on May 26th 2019, 12:01 pm
Of course, but you have to take a holistic look at a character, rather than just picking one over the other because one has lots of showy Force feats. Again, according to HP’s logic there, Bulq > RotJ Luke because Luke doesn’t have “comparable force feats”.
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on May 26th 2019, 12:09 pm
@Paddlepants

Of course, but you have to take a holistic look at a character, rather than just picking one over the other because one has lots of showy Force feats.

Well if we have no method of comparison between them duelling wise them I'm inclined to back the character with immensely better Force feats and in this case, we don't really have a duelling comparison between Galen and Luke besides Vader but that's not really a good indication of their respective skills due to Vader potentially improving from TFU to ROTJ.

Again, according to HP’s logic there, Bulq > RotJ Luke because Luke doesn’t have “comparable force feats”.

Nah Luke slaps Bulq.
Meatpants
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on May 26th 2019, 12:18 pm
How is Vader “potentially” improving his skills from TFU to RotJ? It’s directly confirmed that he made significant improvement, and Luke is his direct equal as a duelist and as a force user. Vader is generally considered > Maul, and a lot of people think he’s around Dooku level as well (I don’t). Thus, Luke, his direct equal, isn’t a pushover, even for someone like Starkiller.
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on May 26th 2019, 12:24 pm
Paddlepants wrote: people think he’s around Dooku level as well

The majority have him above Dooku, which is where he should clearly be.
Meatpants
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on May 26th 2019, 12:26 pm
The semantics are irrelevant. The point is that Luke scales directly as an equal and or better than RotJ Vader, hence making him a deadly serious threat to people like Dooku and Maul. What HP said was essentially “SK is better than Luke because he has more showy Force feats”.
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