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AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 Empty Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

February 27th 2020, 9:49 pm
Not really because a a stick wielding ESB Yoda has no duelling feats that make him impressive.

You’re forgetting that he still has the Force and if Vader was only Maul level then why couldn’t he have just done this to him

Vader powered through that because the pain of the experience served to enrage him, and Yoda was completely taken by surprise by Vader's rage"

Uggg! You do realize that rage amps are limited right? You aren’t the Hulk with a lightsaber getting stronger and stronger until you could beat any other physical combatant, they’re more like steroids to the user. If Maul had that rage amp, could he have beaten powered through ESB Yoda’s Force Based TP?
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 Empty Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

February 28th 2020, 7:31 am
@AlakanSpacewalker

It’s called using your own argument against you, also the Yoda one was the only one you seemed to have a rebuttal for.

Correction: Its an example of the Tu Quoque Fallacy. You're falsely equating Resurrection with a lightsaber wielding Vader vs a stick wielding ESB Yoda moment, which is fallacious because Resurrection was explicitly confirmed to be published to help the SW fanbase settle on the Vader vs Maul debate, whereas the Vader vs ESB Yoda was moment was never declared be published for that reason. That's literally the reason why it exists; to put Vader vs Maul (TPM Maul specifically) debates to rest. Where do these debates occur? What kind of forums are we on? 

You’re forgetting that he still has the Force and if Vader was only Maul level then why couldn’t he have just done this to him

Terrible example. Ventress is not on Vader's level as a Force user, heck TPM Maul isn't even on Vader's level as a Force user, Vader has been all but confirmed to be more "powerful" than TPM Maul:

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 2019-04-22

How inferior TPM Maul is to Vader is unknown. TCW Yoda is a younger, fitter and less weary version of Yoda than ESB Yoda, and even in the comic you fallaciously cite to discredit Resurrection, Yoda does use the Force against Vader, but for a different method; to conjure phantoms of Ben Kenobi, Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn to psychologically mess around with Vader. It worked initially, and I will address your next rebuttal:

Uggg! You do realize that rage amps are limited right? You aren’t the Hulk with a lightsaber getting stronger and stronger until you could beat any other physical combatant, they’re more like steroids to the user. If Maul had that rage amp, could he have beaten powered through ESB Yoda’s Force Based TP?

Maul is less powerful than Vader in the Force, nice try though. It's possible because a starving and exhausted rage amped 17 year old Maul was able to throw Sidious off guard, if a stick wielding ESB Yoda pissed a 22 year old Maul to the same extent in the same situation, Maul would cut off Yoda's arm like how ESB Vader did, because Yoda doesn't have a lightsaber to block Maul's strike.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 Empty Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

February 28th 2020, 10:37 pm
That quote says Vader is more powerful than Tyranus when Sidious took him on, read it more carefully. Pretty sure Ant debunked this stance ages ago.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 Empty Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

February 29th 2020, 6:56 am
@Meatpants wrote:That quote says Vader is more powerful than Tyranus when Sidious took him on, read it more carefully. Pretty sure Ant debunked this stance ages ago.

I've already responded to Ant's comment.
Jake
Jake
Level One
Level One

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 Empty Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

February 29th 2020, 7:03 am
link?
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 Empty Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

February 29th 2020, 7:55 am
@Jake wrote:link?

It's in this thread:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2673-is-vader-really-tpm-maul-level

Though I wasn't suggesting that Vader is more powerful than Tyranus, just that he's more powerful than TPM Maul.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 Empty Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

February 29th 2020, 3:21 pm
... but that's not how the quote works there kiddo.

If sheev took on more powerful apprentices, Maul, DOOOOOOOKUUUUU!, and then Vader (who you argued to be suited), well... yeah. If you argue it the way you did using the quote as evidence for Vader above Maul, it's evidence for Vader being above Dooku.

You can't have it both ways latham
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only) - Page 5 Empty Re: Starkiller vs Darth Maul (melee combat only)

March 1st 2020, 12:16 pm
Isv wrote:... but that's not how the quote works there kiddo.

If sheev took on more powerful apprentices, Maul, DOOOOOOOKUUUUU!, and then Vader (who you argued to be suited), well... yeah. If you argue it the way you did using the quote as evidence for Vader above Maul, it's evidence for Vader being above Dooku.

You can't have it both ways latham

Sorry grandpa, but the quote explicitly makes a direct comparison between TPM Maul and his successors - Vader and Dooku - both of them were more powerful than Maul, and that Vader was Dooku's replacement, but it makes no effort to compare how Maul's 2 successors stack up to each other in power. Vader being Dooku's replacement didn't expire the moment he got that cybernetic suit, he remained Dooku's replacement until he returned to the Light and betrayed Sidious. I can understand why people think it's saying that Vader is more powerful than Dooku because there are other quotes saying that Anakin is because Anakin was more powerful than him:

Darth Sidious: Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful.

Source 
 Revenge of the Sith.

"Sidious then turned his attention to Anakin Skywalker, knowing that young Skywalker was much stronger in the Force than Tyranus.— The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Sidious is merely playing for time until he is ready to replace Tyranus with a new, more powerful apprentice, who will help him to achieve his ultimate aim: utter subjugation of the galaxy under Sith rule and the formation of a merciless new order — the Galactic Empire." — Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross-Sections

"Re-live the incredible battle between two of the most powerful Jedi of all - as they fight to the finish on a Trade Federation Cruiser! Only the strongest Jedi remains—will it be the light side or the dark side of the Force?" — Battle Arena: Federation Cruiser

"Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand." — Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

And there's a multitude of quotes saying pre-suit Vader is more powerful than Anakin. But forget the quote that I'm citing, is ambigious on how Vader and Dooku stack up to each other, but is clear cut on how Maul stacks up to his successors; they're more powerful than him. We know that Anakin and pre-suit Vader is more powerful than Dooku because there are other quotes explicitly supporting this view.

Even if I conceded that it's saying that OT Vader is more powerful than Dooku (I'm arguing that it's referring to OT Vader because of the page's sidenote text), even though it would be lazy and vague way of saying that, what's so unbelievably shocking and ridiculous about OT Vader being more powerful than Dooku?
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