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Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? Empty Is there a link between telepathy and raw power?

on January 11th 2020, 8:45 pm
Title.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on January 11th 2020, 8:48 pm
i think it depends on the feat? but i dont think so, personally. TP seems to be about skill more than TK ever was. TK is something thatn can be unleashed with a lotta power without skill whatsoever, even by accident, while good TP is due almost always not just power but mostly skill
KingofBlades
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on January 11th 2020, 11:18 pm
As long as a character isn't disproportionately adept or inept at telepathy, then it can be used as an indicator of raw force power. However TK is generally a stronger indicator, so if TK feats are available, then use that as your primary proxy for power.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on January 11th 2020, 11:27 pm
i agree. for example, cronal is said to be as strong in the force as Kar vastor, but his TK is shit compared to Kar's, while kar's TP is shit compared to cronal's
DarthAnt66
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on January 12th 2020, 3:02 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:As long as a character isn't disproportionately adept or inept at telepathy, then it can be used as an indicator of raw force power. However TK is generally a stronger indicator, so if TK feats are available, then use that as your primary proxy for power.
DC77 (Reborn)
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on January 12th 2020, 3:40 pm
My answer: No, as I've explained a multitude of times. That being said there's certainly a case to be made that it is.
DarthAnt66
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on January 12th 2020, 3:49 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:My answer: No, as I've explained a multitude of times. That being said there's certainly a case to be made that it is.

Why not? That seems like a controversial take.
Azronger
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on January 12th 2020, 3:57 pm
TP is no different from any other type of feat.

_________________
Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? Pumpki11
IG (Exists)
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on January 12th 2020, 4:06 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:My answer: No, as I've explained a multitude of times. That being said there's certainly a case to be made that it is.

Why not? That seems like a controversial take.
It's so that we can't lowball Caedus < Kun.
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on January 12th 2020, 4:09 pm
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on January 12th 2020, 4:13 pm
Vitiate's TP =/= his lightning. Furthermore, said lightning was charged (moreso than Revan's defence) and Revan manages to negate 99% of the attack, transforming it from lethal (so much so that it'd dust him) to giving him only 3rd degree burns. One's TP has to be related to their raw power as it's determined by their midichlorians. Vitiate charging a TK attack and him charging a lightning attack are going to have different results. Revan is capable of easily deflecting Vitiate's normal lightning as well. Vitiate was also enraged (after his lightning was deflected at him).
DC77 (Reborn)
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on January 12th 2020, 6:26 pm
@IG (Exists):

Vitiate's TP =/= his lightning.

That's kind of the point isn't it... that TP isn't proportionate to one's raw power in the force, something that lightning represents.

Furthermore, said lightning was charged (moreso than Revan's defence)

The difference was minimal, not convinced it would have tipped the balance, or even close.

and Revan manages to negate 99% of the attack, transforming it from lethal (so much so that it'd dust him) to giving him only 3rd degree burns.

A) Proof it would dust him?

B) I don't care if he partially mitigated it, that is of 0 importance to the actual comparison.

Vitiate charging a TK attack and him charging a lightning attack are going to have different results.

If they're proportional then why would the results be different?

Vitiate was also enraged (after his lightning was deflected at him).

Proof this remotely amplified his capabilities in any way?
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on January 12th 2020, 6:37 pm

Do you want me to respond to that? Asking since that's from an SS.

@Azronger wrote:TP is no different from any other type of feat.

Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? 1289255181
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on January 12th 2020, 6:40 pm
@DarthAnt66:

I was thinking we could discuss it in a Discord DM upon my return, if that's cool with you since I'd prefer an informal setting away from prying eyes, though if that's not ok (I'm aware that you're insanely busy atm) we can do it here.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on January 12th 2020, 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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on January 12th 2020, 6:41 pm
My return will be on Wednesday or Thursday btw if you're wondering.
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on January 12th 2020, 7:26 pm
@IG (Exists)
Furthermore, said lightning was charged (moreso than Revan's defence)

Incorrect. Vitiate begins gaining his strength, Revan notices about a second later, then raises his hands and his defences to counter.





and Revan manages to negate 99% of the attack,



Baseless statistic.



transforming it from lethal (so much so that it'd dust him)



Zero evidence of this. If you're going to use Nyriss, she barely had any defence up versus Revan having several seconds to raise his own.



to giving him only 3rd degree burns.


Revan was also saved by his droid and needed considerable time to recover. He was helpless against the onslaught.



Revan is capable of easily deflecting Vitiate's normal lightning as well.



Considering that a casual blast of lightning from Vitiate stopped Revan dead in his tracks, it wasn't "easily" deflected.

DarthAnt66
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on January 12th 2020, 7:54 pm
@BoD

Incorrect. Vitiate begins gaining his strength, Revan notices about a second later, then raises his hands and his defences to counter.

Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? 39523600

Ergo, "said lightning was charged (moreso than Revan's defence)," as IG said. Vitiate was also transfixed in rage.

Baseless statistic.

The statistic itself is baseless and debatable, but its meaning of Revan mitigating almost all the energy is significant for comparisons between the two.

Zero evidence of this.

Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? 3948126588

IG said Revan's tutaminis turned something that would ash him into something that just gave him burns (note the metal armor). How's that a zero evidence claim?

If you're going to use Nyriss, she barely had any defence up versus Revan having several seconds to raise his own.

Follow me here:

- Nyriss throws up an active Force barrier. Note active Force barriers are generally thrown up as an attack is happening, so none of that "barely" nonsense.
- Nyriss' super-charged Force lightning tore through her active Force barrier "unabated," meaning it was so much more powerful it wasn't even diminished.
- Vitiate's super-charged Force lightning is "infinitely" more powerful than Nyriss' super-charged Force lightning.

I'm not sure what you're arguing, but I figure it's contesting that Nyriss would be insta-ashed by Vitiate's Force lightning. There's no way she wouldn't be.

Revan was also saved by his droid and needed considerable time to recover. He was helpless against the onslaught.

Vitiate poured so much of his power into his initial super-charged Force lightning attack that, despite wanting to kill Revan, his following long stream of lightning basically did no lasting harm against a Revan that wasn't even defending anymore or, per you, "helpless." That's a drop-off from insta-ashing Nyriss-tiers to not even causing third-degree burns on a "helpless" human trapped in metal. So, yes, Revan wholly exhausted his power supply and became "helpless," but Vitiate very-almost did as well.

Considering that a casual blast of lightning from Vitiate stopped Revan dead in his tracks, it wasn't "easily" deflected.

How's Vitiate spamming Force lightning bolts while on his knees to prevent Revan from slicing off his head after being blasted backwards "casual"? Vitiate's "serious" the entire fight, as made clear by being so freaked that Revan almost struck him down at the start that he then instituted the Emperor's Voice. The 'primal-state-of-hatred, breaking-of-thousand-year-Force-philosophy, eyes-flashing-red' stuff is of an extra-ordinary Vitiate, yet Revan took that Vitiate on and did pretty damn good.
DC77 (Reborn)
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on January 12th 2020, 8:11 pm
So, Ant, what's your decision?
DarthAnt66
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on January 12th 2020, 8:18 pm
@Azronger wrote:TP is no different from any other type of feat.
@KingofBlades wrote:As long as a character isn't disproportionately adept or inept at telepathy, then it can be used as an indicator of raw force power. However TK is generally a stronger indicator, so if TK feats are available, then use that as your primary proxy for power.

Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? 1289255181

I might even disagree that TK is necessarily a stronger indicator given we commonly ignore many lower-end TK feat performances / discrepancies.
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on January 12th 2020, 8:44 pm
Ergo, "said lightning was charged (moreso than Revan's defence)," as IG said. Vitiate was also transfixed in rage.

The difference of a second or two would be largely minimal since apparently a Force barrier is at the same strength no matter what. Or does that only apply to Nyriss, and Revan gets special treatment?


The statistic itself is baseless and debatable, but its meaning of Revan mitigating almost all the energy is significant for comparisons between the two.

So more or less a fraction of that lightning superheated (iron superheats at over 2000 degrees Celsius, btw) Revan's mask, dropped him to the ground and left him convulsing, and left him helpless before the onslaught as Vitiate continued to pour more power in (so it wasn't even his full power that dropped Revan) until T4 saved him. 



IG said Revan's tutaminis turned something that would ash him into something that just gave him burns (note the metal armor). How's that a zero evidence claim?

What kind of mere "burns" are you seeing that superheat metal and melt flesh? 


Follow me here:

- Nyriss throws up an active Force barrier. Note active Force barriers are generally thrown up as an attack is happening, so none of that "barely" nonsense.
- Nyriss' super-charged Force lightning tore through her active Force barrier "unabated," meaning it was so much more powerful it wasn't even diminished.
- Vitiate's super-charged Force lightning is "infinitely" more powerful than Nyriss' super-charged Force lightning.

Now that is fascinating. Let's take another look:

- Nyriss did not expect Revan to block her lightning and frozen in surprise, making zero move to continue her assault.
- Active Force barrier =/= your strongest barrier. A barrier takes time and power to put together at full strength.
- Revan explicitly released her attack against her, something that also shocked her. Not "her own attack, stronger than before". Her attack. So what you're basically arguing is that Nyriss is fodder to her own lightning, even when summoning a barrier which you act like would instantly be at full strength. So Nyriss' lightning >>> Nyriss. 
- Do you really think Nyriss went from toying with Meetra and Scourge to a mindset where she expected an opponent to casually launch her lightning back at her? 


Vitiate poured so much of his power into his initial super-charged Force lightning attack that, despite wanting to kill Revan, his following long stream of lightning basically did no lasting harm against a Revan that wasn't even defending anymore or, per you, "helpless."

He was barely under that power for more than a few seconds.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been. Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him. Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan. The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Also, "no lasting damage"? He's not even able to move. It took him a minute or two just to be able to stand up again.

Right after the lightning: He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.

-


The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan’s wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength. Helpless, he could only stare up at the Emperor as he raised the lightsaber to deliver the killing blow.


A minute or so later: 

As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp.

Revan was barely standing and was wounded enough that a quick lightning blast from Vitiate on a distracted Revan downed him right afterwards. Says something about how much damage he took from Vitiate's attack and that he was barely standing. 



 That's a drop-off from insta-ashing Nyriss-tiers to not even causing third-degree burns on a "helpless" human trapped in metal



Do you even understand what 3rd degree burns are? 


- Flesh can "melt" at 250 degrees Celsius.
- Third degree burns can occur at around the 65 degrees Celsius mark if exposed skin is held in water of this temperature for around two seconds.
- Revan's flesh was melting with his defences up:


Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.


So: third-degree burns? Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit. It may have temporarily reached a third-degree burn territory, but it far surpassed this as it continued. It would have killed Revan, and Revan would have been helpless to stop it at a fraction of its power. 


If we go by this logic, a fraction of novel Vitiate's power is ~ pre-ROTJ/DE Darth Sidious' lightning, whose best feats with lightning are reducing people (mainly NFU) to charred husks. So either you're wrong about him negating most of the attack, or ROTS Sheev > Vitiate is bullocks.  




So, yes, Revan wholly exhausted his power supply and became "helpless," but Vitiate very-almost did as well.

Rightttt, so Revan's entire power supply was exhausted in a matter of seconds whereas Vitiate was able to continue pouring "more and more power into him" without any sign of stopping...and you think the two are comparable? 



I'm not sure what you're arguing, but I figure it's contesting that Nyriss would be insta-ashed by Vitiate's Force lightning. There's no way she wouldn't be.

I agree.


How's Vitiate spamming Force lightning bolts while on his knees to prevent Revan from slicing off his head after being blasted backwards "casual"?

Casual in comparison to his full power.*




Vitiate's "serious" the entire fight, as made clear by being so freaked that Revan almost struck him down at the start that he then instituted the Emperor's Voice.



Poor comparison. It's because he thought no one with murderous intent could get in the same room, past dozens of royal guards (who the Dark Council feared) in the heart of the Empire's strength. Not a reflection of his power. 



The 'primal-state-of-hatred, breaking-of-thousand-year-Force-philosophy, eyes-flashing-red' stuff is of an extra-ordinary Vitiate, yet Revan took that Vitiate on and did pretty damn good.

Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? 3948126588

So this:

Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? Screen63
is also an example of a massively amped version of a character because he was angry and his eye colour changed from brown to yellow, like Vitiate's turned from black to red? Good to know.
DarthAnt66
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on January 12th 2020, 11:44 pm
@BoD: To my current complete disillusionment, I wrote up an entire post then the Wifi shorted out when I submitted it, so I'll have to respond tomorrow.
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on January 13th 2020, 12:09 am
Oof, my condolences.
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on January 13th 2020, 12:11 am
Btw, sorry if I came across as pissy in my post.
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on January 13th 2020, 11:26 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@BoD: To my current complete disillusionment, I wrote up an entire post then the Wifi shorted out when I submitted it, so I'll have to respond tomorrow.[hideedit]

Since you're "away" anyway, I'll hold off responding until tomorrow since I want to listen to Dan Carlin tonight. Is there a link between telepathy and raw power? 1289255181


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EmperorCaedus
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on January 14th 2020, 12:00 am
TP can often be misconstrued as indicators of combative capability in a 1 on 1 duel. A notable example of this is Bastilla Shan’s Battle-meditation. Her BM feats are truly amazing and she is regarded as “peerless” in her era concerning TP/BM. But she still gets stomped by Malak in a 1 on 1 duel. So while TP feats are good and dandy, TK feats overall are better indicators of combative prowess.


This in itself is an indicator to stay away from TP feats when concerning 1 on 1 engagements. Determining the outcome of a fight based on their TP feats alone will not ultimately not hold up.
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