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IG
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:35 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:funny when we have people who met obi wan say that vader > obi wan

how 
about
that
Funny when we have Leland Chee and George Lucas saying Obi Wan > Vader.

how 
about 
that
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:36 am
funny when u say that, since it makes old obi wan > sheev

how
about
that
IG
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:37 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:funny when u say that, since it makes old obi wan > sheev

how
about
that
That's not what it says... the numbers are just examples for how Ben > Vader kek. Chee himself says Ben > Vader and other sources say Ben threw the fight.
The Dragon Of The West
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:38 am
@Corvinus

It wasn't common knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord at that time. He wants revenge on Palpatine for killing off the Jedi Order with Order 66.

Right, but the fact that Hett proposes he desired new skills to get his revenge on Palpatine implies he knew Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Hett wouldn't need additional skills to kill a politican lol.

Obviously the part about Anakin lol. Did that really need to be explicitly pointed out to you?

I thought it was important to clarify just in case you weren't. Anyway, here's my rebuttal:

And IG brought up Obi-Wan beating Darth Vader.

Uh, no. IG never once referenced pre-suit Vader in his post, he simply said Obi-Wan>>Vader which was likely referring to post-suit given the context (the statement was a direct comparison between Hett and Vader, plus it makes no sense to say Kenobi>>pre-suit Vader when sources clarify they were equally matched on Mustafar).

Except when I said Obi-Wan wasn't going all out?

...which I responded to? It doesn't render the entire duel worthless.

BoD went into more detail on this page about that "duel".

Okay, I guess I'll respond to his post then.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:47 am
IG (Exists) wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:funny when u say that, since it makes old obi wan > sheev

how
about
that
That's not what it says... the numbers are just examples for how Ben > Vader kek. Chee himself says Ben > Vader and other sources say Ben threw the fight.
him saying that already comes from the simple fact that their budget was shit and they needed an explanation as to why no force was used. he says that in the same sentence iirc. meaning that before that, vader > him. and he was trying to defeat vader, so him throwing the fight goes against the point of the duel lol. not only that, we know that vader is stronger than him and that he couldnt stop vader from sensing him either.
The Dragon Of The West
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:53 am
@BoD (away)

Obi-Wan was trying not to kill Hett while at a decent disadvantage.

You posted several scans to show Kenobi was at a decent disadvantage. I'll address each of them below:

1. Kenobi being worried about not having fought in ages is irrelevant given that he also states he kept up his Jedi exercises and his reflexes hadn't become dull.

2. Obi-Wan not wishing to kill Hett - as explained in my post to Corvinus - doesn't render Hett's performance worthless, he clearly shows he's at the very least somewhat close as a fighter.

3. The desert while obviously being a mitigating factor doesn't really massively destroy the feat, as has been pointed out by people in the past, these are Force-sensitives we're talking about here, something like sand beneath their boots isn't going to massively hinder them. It's one of many factors listed in the duel alongside Hett's "considerable skills" with his own weapons.

When he realised Hett would never surrender or leave, he quickly cut off his arm.

Erm, this isn't some magical revelation Kenobi came to mid duel. The text stating he knew Hett would never surrender partway through the duel does not mean Kenobi just came to that conclusion. Also, you're acting as though Kenobi could have just won the whole time, and that he was toying with Hett, which is clearly false as demonstrated by him taking several physical strikes during the duel and being generally hard-pressed.
Isv
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:33 am
What is this autism
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:40 am
Except that Obi-Wan during that period never went all out. And was PTSD ridden to the point that calling on the force gave him mental aftershocks.
ILS
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:45 am
Yeah... can we all agree to dispense with this habit of presenting pure textual diarrhoea with beautifully formatted headers, bulletpoints and summaries, as if someone isn't going to just strip it down line for line for spare parts?

Morne was a mess just after waking up. She was a seasoned veteran by Legacy and comparing what she did in Dark Times to her and Muur all but fusing into one being with their text bubbles merging comes off as disingenuous as fuck to anyone who has actually read both comics.

Also, BoD even mentioning Morne blasting an unblocking Krayt with lightning after he had just been run through with a fucking lightsaber and then thrown from an over 100-200 foot cliff and still failing to kill him, even though he was already courting death by fighting intensely with the vong coral seeds on the brink of finally breaking him, as if this is either impressive for Morne or beneficial to Vader in anyway, is the height of stupidity. If anything it tells us how hilariously disparate Morne and Vader are from a perpetually hampered and badly weakened Krayt.
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:05 am
@ILS wrote:Yeah... can we all agree to dispense with this habit of presenting pure textual diarrhoea with beautifully formatted headers, bulletpoints and summaries, as if someone isn't going to just strip it down line for line for spare parts?

Not sure whether this was intended to be funny but I laughed so hard while reading it (I agree with it though tbh).
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:15 am
its not even agreeing with it, its more like accepting it as the obvious truth lmaoo
BoD
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:50 pm
Also, BoD even mentioning Morne blasting an unblocking Krayt with lightning after he had just been run through with a fucking lightsaber and then thrown from an over 100-200 foot cliff and still failing to kill him, even though he was already courting death by fighting intensely with the vong coral seeds on the brink of finally breaking him, as if this is either impressive for Morne or beneficial to Vader in anyway, is the height of stupidity. If anything it tells us how hilariously disparate Morne and Vader are from a perpetually hampered and badly weakened Krayt.

...It wasn't meant to say Muur ~ Krayt, lol. It was just me throwing out some feats I could think of, which is why I explicitly said Krayt was wounded. 

Once again, I am not saying 19 BBY Vader > Vong Krayt. I'm saying he's above the near-death Krayt we see in this short period.
BoD
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:50 pm
Will reply to HP later.
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Quorian Debatist

Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:23 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Excellent post! I only have a couple minor nitpicks but besides that, it seems like we agree on most things.  Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 1289255181



BoD (Away) wrote:
Part 1: Celeste Morne's growth


If I am understanding you right, your argument boils down to the idea that Celeste Morne, after fighting Vader, had 156 years to grow. You also argue that she had time to learn how to use the talisman and how to harness it (and thus, Muur’s) power. I’m going to argue that this is not the case. 

You'd be wrong. You'd also be using the biggest outlier in Star Wars history who was basically mainlining the force for decades and grew enough to die to Wrath after talking himself up heavily. The things he did were mighty impressive... losing twice and dying after huge growth.





First, you point to the idea of Morne’s potential, and how 156 years of growth would have logically boosted her power dramatically. However, there are two flaws with this idea:

1. Celeste’s Morne’s time in the Oubliette
You point to Celeste’s 156 years of growth as credible logic for her growing more powerful, and this is a fair conclusion to draw from this. However, you have not taken into account that when Celeste Morne faced Vader, she’d spent four thousand years within a stasis field constructed by Remulus Dreypa, one that was specifically designed to imprison Karness Muur and the powers of the talisman. It would separate the being from the outside world, while simultaneously keeping them completely conscious of their imprisonment:


Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Pasted10

I took the 4000 thousand years into consideration actually. The creator of the oubliette and the guy who altered his talisman so he could survive in the chamber without going insane (likely Muur did as well seeing as he made it so it could house his essence and Dreypa was his enemy while he knew of the oubliettes) was forgetting key details and was forgetting his powers for many hours after exiting the oubliette. The guy with the best possible chance and defenses against the negative effects of it was negatively impacted. He was not a Jedi Knight who had just put on the Amulet.

Dreypa:
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Even more keen is that Celeste Morne was completely conscious the entire time, having nothing to do but (logically) meditate and block out Muur’s mental influence:


Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Pasted15

She was actually asleep the entire time in stasis:

Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Scree124

Considering the oubliette could only be opened by the Force, it's very doubtful she was ever awake inside the box... backed up by it saying she slept for 4000 years. Otherwise, she would have tried to open it at one point in time. If she's not awake, then it's doubtful she's meditating that entire time. She can't use her powers at all. Nothing indicated she could.

Neither her nor Muur were aware of the exact passive of time, and she awoke with Zayne's name on her tongue before even noticing Vader. While she slept btw. She was sleeping. Then she continues talking to Vader like he was Zayne until she realizes it wasn't him. Then she realizes she can still FEEL MUUR which would be an odd thing to note considering she was gabbing it up with him for 4000 years. Muur says "millennia" which is news to Celeste considering they were gabbing it up for 4000 years, but even he seemed surprised at the exact time spent in there.

Spoiler:
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Though I am curious how you reconcile it being a "nightmare" box, that Muur was talking to her for 4000 straight years and she came out perfectly fine almost like nothing ever happened to her and it was just yesterday to her... yet descended into madness after having an entire moon to roam around on with her Rakghoul friends for 20 years due to being betrayed by Vader and feeling trapped? That her losing her mind was attributed to being OUT OF STASIS with Muur as opposed to locked inside with a nightmare box? Was her meditation now failing her?

An easy reconciliation for me is that Muur had failsafes built into his Amulet based on her not suffering in any way from 4000 years of torture - much like Dreypa attributed his Amulet to saving his sanity - and that considering Morne was sleeping, it's not hard to imagine any possible interactions with Muur happening in a dreamlike state where time loses meaning. You can test this theory out by staying up all night and then comparing how much different time seems to flow when you sleep. Yes, you have dreams, but it's not 5-10 hours of dreams. Minutes at best. Morne could have easily gone back in her head and remembered any one of those "dreams" and realized it was Muur trying to speak with her as opposed to waking up in a box and realizing where she was at that precise moment.

And if you're arguing that she actually endured that 4000 years then why would she not atrophy instead considering she didn't do a fucking thing in the oubliette? If you're picking out examples like MASTER WYELLETT then why can't Kenobi work in opposition? The only difference is that Kenobi didn't sit around and do nothing for 4000 years and yet his power still waned. If you're arguing that Celeste was cognizant for the entire 4000 years and did zero lightsaber drills, and experienced no hands-on experience while she was well aware of the entire time-lapse then why would her mind be sharp enough to remember those skills that she hasn't used in 4000 years to her peak? It doesn't matter if her body was up to the task; those skills haven't been mentally honed for 4000 years. There's no practice being had and she woke up and fought Vader.

But then again, why would anyone argue that STASIS would allow you to experience the ravages of time? She couldn't move her entire body but she could open her eyes and fully understand her situation with her brain... then she could call on the Force to meditate and touch the Force all around her in a tiny box that was completely cut off from the outside world.

Your scans:
Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Pasted10 Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Pasted15

Celeste was just creating power from nowhere. Ex nihilo Jedi Knight Force user can just create power from nowhere infinitely. It's when she gets released into the Force rich galaxy that she decreases in power. Yeah.

Morne was under the assumption that she was going to be rescued when she woke up from stasis and thought Zayne Carrick himself had freed her. She was under the assumption that all her problems would cease when she woke up with no heavy lifting on her end. So besides her being cut off from the galaxy, her being asleep/stasis, her having no idea how much time passed, she had no reason to be stuck in a meditation trance for thousands of years when she assumed she'd just go back to her daily life after this was all over.

I would be more willing to accept this if you actually built upon Celeste/Muur strife and didn't gloss over the fact that she would then need sustenance when she exited the box either in the form of hardcore mainlining the Force, or built up her reserves over a period of time. But you didn't, and I'll address that down below.

Now, you might be asking yourself: why is this important? As we have seen throughout SW continuity, beings that are imprisoned, put in stasis or restrained in any other way are able to grow as individuals and in their power. I don’t expect you to take this without evidence, so I’ll raise the first example.

I am not opposed to this idea no. What I am opposed to however is you using three examples; one where the girl is straight-up asleep cut off from everything ever, one where the guy is directly communing with the Force, and one where the guy is fighting a mental war for 300 years. I'm also opposed to you throwing around the numbers like they add up to real-world training and experience. It's not that 4000 theoretical years of mediation wouldn't add a boost to their power, it's that we have no way of knowing if that compares in any way to hands-on experience. You're writing off 150 years of experience and playing around with a mini-nexus around your neck in favor of the larger number of 4000 years based on nothing. Do you believe that Revan with immortality and 300 years of running around fighting and utilizing the Force in real-world situations would be comparable in power to Revan meditating for 300 years? Had Anakin just meditated his entire time as a Jedi, do you think you would have been as good combatively as Knightfall Vader?

The character you absolutely loathe - Luke - meditates more than any Jedi per a comparable timeframe. He has more experience than any other Jedi too. Even FOTJ Luke is sub-Vader to you though.

Yes, meditation is good for Jedi, but it's not going to beat out pure training and experience just because you did it for a long time. Even worse when it interferes with training, eating, and real-life combat. You can't just go into some sort of super-healing trance at full health and expect that to benefit more than going over drills or pushing your own powers to their limits/doing cool wizard shit as Sheev did.

All of this is even more questionable when per your opinion, Celeste with 4000 years of meditation - that made Wyellett and Revan seem like retards in comparison - is basically sub-Roan Shryne. Roan who had his powers diminish from disuse and only had around 2 weeks to get back into his prior form.


Example 1: Master Wyellett.


After being imprisoned in ice for decades, Master Wyellett claimed to have grown considerably in power:


“All these many years, entombed in this rubble, I have fed off the Force and have great insights to impart.”


“In truth, I was the same until being buried on Hoth. Here, I communed with the Force to the exclusion of all else. 


The Force is with me, greater than ever now. I suspect that I could defeat you quite handily. 

This power growth was considerable. Master Wyellett went from being a peer of pre-Sel Makor Baras (fighting him in an extended fight with the help of his padawan, Xerender), to going toe to toe with and almost stalemating end of act 2 EW, who can be argued to have only won due to their youth and thus greater endurance. As we can see here, Wyellett, despite only meditating for decades, underwent huge amounts of growth after being forced to focus only on himself and his spiritual and personal growth. 

Well besides this being a huge outlier, the difference is that Wyellett was specifically communing with the Force directly. Celeste was sleeping in a box entirely cut off from the outside world. Wyellett had the most direct line to the Force he could have and was specifically living off the Force. He was basically eating the Force. Celeste was eating some Zs and woke up with atrophy.

Now, why it's an outlier? Because your body doesn't just live on the Force. We've seen this play out with the Mind-Walkers where Luke Skywalker almost died when he was basically in Heaven in the purest form of Force expression there is for a month. All the Mind-Walkers were dying. Luke needed weeks to recover with food and rest. Sheev needed years (iirc) to recover from ROTJ on a massive Darkside nexus. Valkorion needed to eat a planet... same game no less. Abeloth who was basically a Force Tank apparently never got back to her peak power and was basically eating people and chaos to try and compensate. Yet all this guy did was commune with the Force for decades and didn't need sustenance or rest afterward to capitalize on his gains? He just draws on the Force for decades and his body actually gets stronger a short while later? He must be the greatest prodigy in Star Wars. I hope he didn't spend decades straight acquiring power to get murdered by Act2!Wrath or he might be a bad example to use... besides the lore breaking talent you're using like it's a normal example.

All that being said, however, he still needed more time than Celeste had to recover his own strength. He watched his Padawan die while recovering power after being freed earlier.

Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 I87o6s10



Example 2: Revan. 


Though I don’t like using Revan because I’m terrified I’m going to get something wrong and be crucified for it, he is a prime - and perhaps, the most apt - example of a being undergoing power growth, especially in light of the fact that his imprisonment was very similar to that of Morne’s:


REVAN’S CELL WAS AS MUCH LABORATORY AS PRISON. 


Trapped in a suspended cage of shimmering power, he hovered somewhere between life and death. His paralyzed body was in some kind of stasis, preserved and protected so that even time itself could not touch him. But his consciousness was fully aware. Meetra could sense his suffering. When she had died, she had not become one with the Force. Loyal to the end, her spirit had remained with Revan, an invisible presence hovering just outside his cell. She couldn’t speak with him; whatever arcane Sith sorcery the Emperor had used to bind Revan in his cell made that impossible. She doubted Revan was even aware she was there. Yet even though she couldn’t communicate with him, she was able to offer aid and support, her power trickling through the energy barrier that surrounded him, a lifeline he could cling to in the dark ocean of his imprisonment.


Whenever his thoughts turned to his wife and son, he tried to reach out to them through the Force, offering comfort and strength from the other side of the galaxy. He didn’t know if they ever felt him, but he liked to imagine that they did.


Much like Celeste Morne, Revan was imprisoned using Sith alchemy in a stasis field that protected his body from the passage of time while also stopping Force users or sensors from detecting him. During this period, Revan had two goals: protect his secrets from Vitiate, and mentally influence Vitiate into a course of action that benefited the Republic:


And Revan knew something the Emperor did not. The connection between them went both ways. There were brief moments—times when the Emperor was intently focused on something else—when he could subvert their relationship by planting seeds in the Emperor’s thoughts. He had to be careful, lest his enemy discover what he was doing. But he was able to push and nudge the Emperor’s own thoughts and beliefs, subtly manipulating them in ways that could have profound effects. Revan played on the Emperor’s caution and patience, constantly pushing them to the forefront of his enemy’s mind. He augmented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the Republic was reckless and dangerous.


Revan was certain of one thing, though: for however many centuries his body survived in stasis, he would fight to stop the Emperor from invading the Republic.

You realize you saved me the time from having to look for quotes where Revan's imprisonment wasn't like Celeste's right? Revan was still able to use the Force, the barrier could be penetrated by positive and negative energy drains, he was aware of everything that was going on, and he could direct TP outside the cage, as well as it wasn't impenetrable by outside TP. Celeste was cut off from everything. You can't even prove Celeste was using the Force, let alone any of that.

Revan was being tortured and constantly hovered between life and death as well. Basically Revan was being pushed constantly for 300 years and he was in an environment when he could heal and use the Force so he could be pushed again. Presumably, all of his power is coming back to him so he can fight again in an unending battle. He's constantly pushing his power to the limits to try and survive against Vitiate. Vitiate is constantly feeding off him. He comes back stronger and Revan still manages to stave him off. We've seen many times these beings in Star Wars come out stronger from pushing themselves in battle (once they heal) or overcoming obstacles. Luke post-DE, Sheev post-Windu, Revan getting his memories back, Revan getting his memories back again, all the Jedi/Sith in TCW, Luke healing his body from Abeloth injuries, etc. You even admit here that Revan grows in battle because of the challenge he faces. You are actually on board with Revan growing in power due to being locked in essentially a Force battle for 300 years. This sort of strife is a precipitator for growth. They get to pit their powers against one another and learn from the experience.

So we'll get back to Revan here. Considering you believe Revan grew, then you have to believe there's a reason for it, and I believe this is it. It might not be the most 1 to 1 comparison here, but imagine Revan using all of his power to TK some rocks until he's drained to near death. He then gets refreshed let's say at the end of every day. This happens for 300 years. So, going by Star Wars years being 368 days, we have Revan fully letting loose his power 110400 times and getting refreshed that many times as well. Over time his ability to manipulate the Force would increase, his stamina would increase, his power would increase. He has so much experience using his powers that he knows the ins and outs of it, and he knows his own limits. He knows what he can and can't do, and him being an actual prodigy should experience substantial growth. He's actually learning about the Force via abusing it so much - a reason Luke was stated to grow in power circa 19ABY! - and while he might not be achieving knowledge of all aspects of the Force, he is still learning how to use pure power in the most effective way. He is still learning about the Force, Nevermind the fact that he has now pushed himself to the absolute limits more than any other Force user in history; more than any 2, 3, 4, 5 put together.

Why would that type of experience ever be comparable to 4000 years of simple meditation even believing you? Keep in mind you're arguing that Celeste's growth should be greater than Revan's purely due to time... Revan who was basically the Chosen One pre-Anakin. Also, keep in mind that you're then arguing that this growth - that greatly overshadows Revan's - was incapable of putting Celeste Morne above Roan Shryne to any real degree. Roan Shryne with 2 weeks of recovering > 4000 years of growth. You can't just take the numbers without context and assume it adds up simply because it's way bigger. You can't assume it all amounts to the same type of growth. Otherwise, there's no point in training harder, there's no point in working harder or training smarter. All that matters is time, and Celeste should be the most powerful Force user ever following your logic. If you understand that the quality of training/growth matters then you can spot the issues with your reasoning I hope. It's simply not the same thing that you can build off of.

We'll delve deeper into the BIG FACTS of all of this coming up, but I want you to understand how incredulous this sounds right now.





First, I’m going to address the difference between the two. While it is true that Revan was also being fed upon by Vitiate during this, it’s important to note that he was also being constantly refreshed for 300 years:


As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war. Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay.


It was Meetra’s strength that allowed him to continue fighting. By the time of SWTOR, his strength had begun to drain as his will weakened. 


What’s important here is that even as Revan was drained, he was also renewed. Now, I’d rather not go too in-depth as I don’t know too much about Revan’s time in captivity or the case or his growth, but we know that SoR Revan > his former selves, and while his “death” and rebirth would certainly have helped, there has to be more to it. In this case, Revan’s lengthy time in captivity, where he was forced to channel his power and go deeper than ever before would most likely have a similar effect to Wyllett, where he’s forced to commune with the Force and draw upon reserves he didn’t know he had or which over time became available to him, enabling him to grow during this period. 


However, the difference between Revan and Morne is that not only was Morne imprisoned for far longer (four thousand years to Revan’s three hundred), but she also didn’t have the negative effect of Vitiate draining her knowledge and power to slow this growth, nor was Muur actively trying to take control due to their captivity. Now of course I’m not saying that Morne > any version of Revan, nor am I saying Morne’s growth was necessarily > Revan’s. However, she did have the advantage of far more time to grow and evolve both physically and spiritually, and considering the growth we’ve seen in beings who’ve entered meditative trances for as little as decades (in Master Wyllett’s case) to centuries (in Revan’s case), this Morne would be immensely more powerful than her TOR self. 


If necessary, I’ll provide more examples, but I think I’ve made this part of my point clear for now. Morne had four thousand years of power growth on her already formidable TOR era self. Not only that, but she also had the company of Karness Muur, who could tell her more and more about the amulet. Any growth in the 162 years after this would be fairly miniscule by comparison.

Or in other words, she had absolutely no reason to grow as she wasn't being pushed in any way shape or form? You've just explained a huge difference there, so I'm not sure why you're continuing to state that she had no downsides. She had no upsides either following your logic. However, don't just take your word for it, here is Morne explaining herself that only after she released did she contest Muur for control of her body:

Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Scree119


If you believe that quality matters and that 4000 years might not be better than Revan's, then why can't 156 years be better than 4000? But I'll get back to this later on. If there's anything you did here, you built up Morne's willpower, growth, and Revan's willpower and time served. Mark my words, this will come up again.
 Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 1019854026

Also, Revan weakened because he was actually being tortured the entire time, and he had to actually split his mind into two personas/spirits in order to continue on. Actually created another being with its own power that was key in utilizing his full power. If Revan weakens at 300 years, do you think that helps you prove Celeste weakened within 150 years with nowhere near the trauma? Also, Revan never refreshed again before his release. He came out of stasis limping and holding his side. He then went straight into the Foundry IIRC. He never got time to heal back to full power and get over his injuries/experiences, he just went straight into another "battle" so to speak. It's even implied his strength would stop failing once he was released:

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But he never had time to regather his strength. Just like Wyellett needed time to regather his strength. Just like Morne never had time to regather her strength after stasis if she indeed did grow in power and then wake up.

So, not only are there vastly different factors involved, but both of your examples actually needed time to regather their strength when Morne didn't. You continue to play up the "4000 years of growth" and how it's much more than your cited examples, so why should I believe that she needed zero time to acclimate herself to her new status of being awake? Even if she did grow in power for whatever reason, she would have still time to regather her power per every example you've likened it to.

Like at this stage it's just not happening even if you were correct on half of your points.


Part 2: Celeste Morne vs Krayt


First, I want to say that I made some very stupid comparisons and arguments in this section. However, I do want to examine your discussion of the link between Celeste’s willpower and her raw strength in the Force. 


To begin, I want to examine your point about Muur fighting Krayt throughout the fight, and how it would have meant Morne was fighting a two-front war. Respectfully, I disagree. Morne only takes control at a key part in the fight, which was to command the rakghouls to do his bidding (and slaughter Cade and the others, which Morne would never have allowed).

Muur wasn’t intentionally fighting Krayt. He took over to command the rakghouls to dispatch the others to avoid any distractions or loose ends, but had to do so in the middle of Morne’s fight with Krayt. 


As we see throughout, any effort by Morne to take back control throughout the duel (and even before this) is done with huge amounts of effort on her part:


Muur had no intention of fighting Krayt. He cooperated to lure Krayt into a trap to take over his body and to have Morne killed, not to fight him. The only time he takes control is in order to order the rakghouls to kill Cade and co, which he does as Krayt attacks him. 


Now, why do I keep emphasising this? Well for one, Muur quickly stops trying to take control of her body, despite proving that he can:


You can and somewhat have argued that the reason for this is that Morne’s defences were lowered, but this isn’t the case. Muur wants Krayt to kill Morne and accept him rather than fight him. To do that, he needs to neutralise anyone who might jeopardise his plan (Cade and the others) and make Krayt view him as an ally, not an enemy. To do that, he stops taking control of Morne so Krayt will kill her and accept him to cure himself. This is also supported by Krayt’s words to Morne:


And Muur’s own words throughout the duel:


What?

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you're arguing that Muur's entire plan was to get Morne's body killed and he was willing to stop trying to take control of her to do this? So if he was exchanging lightsaber strikes with him, then wouldn't it behoove him to just not block a saber strike from Krayt? Muur and Krayt seemingly fought off-panel the entire time it took the Jedi to deal with the Rakghouls and for Cade to beat Darth Stryfe. If his entire goal was to die to Krayt and let Krayt take the Amulet, then why wouldn't he have let down his guard that entire fight? If you argue they didn't actually fight but just stood beside each other, then why didn't he telegraph an attack and let Krayt kill him? Muur was in control that entire time and he wanted Celeste to die, yet he didn't allow it to happen when he had full control. The reason why I believe they fought the entire time is that when Morne got control back, they were still exchanging saber strikes. So, they either fought the entire time, or they stood beside each other the entire time. Both would have been perfect opportunities for Celeste to die considering this is the first time that he's been in control of Celeste for an extended period of time besides setting the trap. But no, he didn't take the chance even though you're telling me that's all he wanted to do. And this is right after assuring him that it was entirely Celeste to betray him as well, which is before he ruined all credibility with Krayt. Very curious.

Yes, Celeste is still able to wrest control over Muur. Something she's never had to do before this arc. Muur was catching her slipping or falling prey to her emotions and taking over, but Celeste was still able to overpower his control. It's not simply holding him in check at that point in time, she is taking him and throwing him back into jail after he escaped. It still shows that she's able to exert control over her body even when she slips. Her purposefully ceding control to him for a long period of time time to torture Cade and entrap Krayt doesn't help either. She was allowing him free reign over her body while relinquishing control. This would allow him to get a better foothold over her body. Morne could still overpower his hold over her body, albeit with effort, which she did multiple times. Even after Muur threw a huge Force storm at Krayt she took over right after and he admitted she was "losing control" but that she still retained it.

Muur was "accidentally" fighting Krayt while threatening to kill him. I don't understand your point here. Whether it was his original intention or not, he would still wind up fighting him. It's like saying that Luke didn't even intend to fight Vader and therefore it didn't happen. And no, he didn't take over in the middle of Morne fighting Krayt; last we saw of Muur he was in control and then Krayt got free and they were fighting. Muur then says he will kill him if he must. All Muur did was reach over while he was already fighting Krayt and summon the Rakghouls to attack. You act like it was a massive ordeal but it's no more effort than grabbing something with TK. Afterall, it's not like she had to stand perfectly still and summon a bunch of power to turn people into Rakghouls... Hell, Celeste literally jumps at Krayt and summons Rakghouls to attack Krayt showing how effortless it is and how easy it is for her to control it:

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Yes, Muur was screwing with her there, but that doesn't prove he can take control over her whenever he wants. It also flows back into the redundancy of your whole argument. Muur wants Celeste to die. Muur can take control whenever he wants. Wouldn't it be a sign of good faith to allow Krayt to kill Celeste to build trust? Hell, Muur takes over to attempt to kill Krayt right after that when Morne was on the verge of losing and possible death. She was about to lose so he took over and tried to kill Krayt because he had no intention to fight Krayt except when Krayt almost killed Celeste. You can't ascribe his original motivations to the entire fight when it steps over itself constantly.



Krayt can’t risk killing Muur: Karness is his one chance to save himself. However, he does want Morne dead so he can take the talisman for himself. Muur only wants to goad Krayt into killing Morne, not to fight him. He only tries to take control twice: when angered by the Imperial Knights, and when he intends to kill Krayt. Both times, he does this fairly easily. 

Uh... I want you to reread this entire part back because it contradicts itself and large portions of your post.

---

Did you read it back to yourself yet? Good because I'm going to make fun of it now.

Krayt can't risk killing Muur but he wants to kill Morne so he can take the talisman. IE, Krayt can't risk killing Celeste but he wants to kill Celeste so he can use her power. IT"S A RISK HE CANNOT TAKE!

Muur only wants to goad Krayt into killing Morne, except when he attempts - and almost succeeds - in killing Krayt.

You kept noting that Muur had no intention of fighting Krayt then you casually add-in that he also took over to kill Krayt. What changed besides Krayt being within reach of killing Morne?

IDK BoD, I just don't know anymore.




Now, moving on I want to discuss Morne’s power growth over that 156 years and how it links into her willpower. Aside from the lack of evidence for her power growth, there’s also the issue that, much like Revan and Vitiate, constantly fighting to keep Muur at bay would drain and weaken her, as it would require her raw power as well as her willpower to fight his attempts to take over her body. Revan went through something very similar after 300 years of Vitiate trying to drain him of knowledge, even with Meetra’s help:

“The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for for three hundred years. His strength will fail. Then, he will become the darkness.”

“How did you find me?”
“Your strength fails. You must be free, or all is lost.”

In both Revan and Morne’s cases, their willpower is closely linked to their raw power in the Force. Both hold the Emperor and Muur back, respectively:

As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war. Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay.

Both cases are very similar:


  • Two Force users imprisoned by the will of a powerful Force user.
  • Both hold these darksiders at bay, refusing to (in Revan’s case) give it knowledge, or (in Morne’s case) let it take control.
  • Both hold them off for centuries (Morne when Muur actively seeks control for 156 years, and Revan the Emperor for 300 years with Meetra’s help). 
  • However, both of them find that their willpower and raw power fades over time. As we see with Revan, this mental (and indirectly, Force) battle drained him, with Foundry Revan for example being beaten by either a single act 2 protagonist, or by a team of them (who are still leagues below the likes of FE Malgus). 


In both situations, their power and willpower are closely linked. However, while Revan had the help of Meetra, Morne’s strength and will was already fading by her appearance in Legacy:

Well, as said above Revan's war and end result were a little different. Revan's mind was split because he was so destroyed by the torture, and he was absolutely bananas after it happened. He was physically damaged, and he never got the proper time or energy to heal fully. Revan was broken to a point that to survive he had to create an entire aspect of himself so he wouldn't fully succumb to actual torture. His actual power was getting drained as well many many times. He was also confirmed as weaker after the end result. Not weaker to a point where it caused permanent damage mind you, just weaker after he released and his subsequent death. There's nothing detailing that he couldn't have regained his theoretical full power, just that he was weaker at the moment. Hell, he might not have even regained his full soft capped power for that matter. Without Meetra feeding him, these types of damage take time to heal. Heck, you just argued that time couldn't touch him yet he was sent there immediately after getting zapped to a point where his skin was melting and then zapped again. Hmm.

In comparison, Morne never had to endure any physical aspects of it, nor did she endure any draining of her actual power. She was still very much Celeste Morne, but she was willing to defend herself more. Not with crazy plans that threaten everyone, just anyone that chooses to attack her. if she lost any reserves of power, she could rest or meditate immediately afterwards to try and recuperate. She was not tortured in a place where she was confined and her whims were subject to anyone else, she was just getting called a bitch for many years. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant, but it's not the same as we've seen Vitiate do to Scourge for example by touching him, or getting drained and being physically damaged and weaker.

Not to mention that you just argued that Revan grew in power due to this willpower battle anyway. So, uh...


Morne’s power and will to fight had been fading for 156 years. Constantly fighting Muur for a century and a half would have weakened her considerably. By the time she fought Krayt, her abilities had become so diminished that Muur could easily take control whenever he wanted, and it took Morne immense concentration and focus just to temporarily take control again:


As such, Morne’s power growth over 156 years, if there was any, was drastically depleted in a similar way to that of Revan’s. Like him, the strain it took to actively contain a Muur trying to take control over the 156 years before Legacy would have weakened her considerably, leading to her fight with Krayt and gradually losing (more on that in the next section).

Except he couldn't take control whenever he wanted. He still needed her out of the way and her willpower could still hold him in check.

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You even posted two scans saying she just started losing control as well:

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This means it wasn't a gradual decline the entire time even if you were correct, but I'll get back to that at the end.




But why does her power have to decrease anyway? With Revan we have confirmation/extenuating factors not present in Celeste, and her doing everything in her power to prevent anyone from overcoming her. While her willpower to keep Muur at bay might have ceded recently, her willpower to keep the rest of the universe away was still very much intact. She refused to lose any fight and would go so far as to abuse the Amulet and Darkside if need be. She coveted power to prevent him from getting into the wrong hands and was essentially piloting a zombie virus and would turn anyone and anything into zombies to keep them away. She was not a good person that she would reflect on these things and question what she's doing in a way that would impact her power.

Her ability to call on her own power in battle was never in question. In fact, she was in control of another power source to increase her battle prowess. There was no thought of losing or surrendering to another being that was prevalent in her mind. She needed to win so Muur couldn't win. If she couldn't fight Muur directly, then she would lash out with all she could.

What Muur did was whittle down her resistance to him, but forge her resistance to the rest of the galaxy. For example, imagine your dad just beat the absolute shit out of you every day when you were young. "Dawnarro Fernandez, did you just open the new jug bag of milk when we still have a cup left in the old bag?" And he just lays into you to the body with gloves on so you don't leave bruises. This would naturally make you weak to your father, correct? Your dad would frighten you, and you refer to this as the BreakofDawn. However, this would also toughen you up to the kids on the school ground. You would never accept being bullied or pushed around by these white kids because you get enough of that at home. This would make you meaner and more aggressive if anything to anyone who tried to screw with you. He has hardened you up to the outside world while still being your only fear. Celeste is redirecting all of her hate into another opponent so she doesn't lose to anyone else.

That being said, Muur was seemingly taking advantage of her in moments of intense anger; when she was vulnerable to the Darkside, when she was literally feeding off the Darkside to give her more power. This goes back to her not being a conventional Jedi. A conventional Jedi would question doing this and weaken themselves in the act - much like Anakin did against Dooku. She had no problem using the Darkside however... as even you accidentally showed. She is increasing her power to a point where she becomes easier for Muur to breakthrough by calling on the Darkside. She wasn't giving up and letting him take control. She was giving in to her emotions too much and not defending against Muur. She's gaining power without proper measures against Muur anymore.

So I don't really get why she "decreased in power" when if anything she was willing to abuse the Force more to defend herself.



Part 3: Morne’s respective fights with Vader and Krayt

As I have hopefully proved above, the version of Morne that Krayt fought was weakened after 156 years of actively fighting Muur’s influence and dark side corruption. However, the version of Morne that Vader fights is fresh out of 4,000 years of meditation and growth:

The nature of the oubliette also perfectly preserved the victim’s body, so Morne was in peak fighting condition when she exited the oubliette.

On top of that, a bloodlusted and enraged Morne was drawing upon the dark side throughout her duel with Vader despite refusing to fully give into it, only drawing upon it like other Force users such as Luke:

Even more key is that Morne needed Vader dead. She couldn’t risk him taking the talisman and using it to unleash Muur on the entire galaxy:

However, despite being in peak fighting condition, fresh out of 4,000 years of meditation within stasis, and drawing upon the dark side as a result of her bloodlust, Morne is not only easily overpowered and disarmed by a holding back Vader:

...but also outright admits inferiority, a claim supported by Vader and Muur:

It takes Muur drawing upon the full power of the talisman to drive Vader away, an act that enrages Muur, who had no idea she could do that:

Yes, Vader won the fight. That's not my contention to argue he didn't. I'm saying that she made him work for it at a lower level. I'm saying that she was capable of fighting him for 10 pages before getting disarmed and losing before she had ever tapped into the Amulet. That her level wasn't impossibly below Vader to a point where he can casually and quickly beat her like he did many other Jedi. Do you know how you brag about him one-shotting Jedi or beating them within a page or two? That didn't happen here. If he wanted her on his side, then disarming her without getting thrown, having most of his attacks blocked or parried, or having to defend himself repeatedly would have been preferable. Not having an extended fight would have shown how out of her league he was. As it stands, he just looks markedly above her and he can't take her down on the drop of a dime. It's also heavily implied that Muur is above him in power on his own as well.

Krayt then fights her when she's at a more experienced and higher level as well as Muur. Krayt actually takes on Muur using attacks when he's drawing on the full power of the Talisman, as opposed to running away. Even with all your excuses intact, it still doesn't erase the fact that Krayt was still contending with Muurne that would erase all willpower issues and whatnot. That certainly doesn't help the Vader case.

I can see trying to draw comparisons into how they did against each other sure. But to actually try and delve into the specifics and say Vader > Vong Krayt because of this when you're sweeping away large bits of context and logic doesn't work. To me, it seems much more like a troll post to try and piss off Krayt fans fan. Like lol Vader beats her and Krayt couldn't. Once you start taking it seriously it doesn't add up to me. It seems like something that you should just ignore instead of trying to tie it to Vader.

The other parts here have been addressed ad nauseum in other parts of my post, so not concerned about that.



Even here, the reason for Vader’s retreat is important. Vader at this point has realised that Morne will never submit to him:

If Vader stayed, he’d be facing over a dozen Clones turned into rakghouls who could infect him with a scratch or bite:

Who could also use weapons:

But on top of this, he’d also be facing Morne amped by Muur’s full power.

Vader was quite confident that he couldn't be turned actually.
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In fact, he was just as much in range as those troopers were and watched himself not get turned. Which means he just admitted to dying due to just getting mauled to death. Not only that, but he kept running long past Morne ever trying to catch up to him. He was just running from Rakghouls he didn't think could turn him. Miles away from Morne and he was still running from Rakghouls. He could have killed all the ones that were chasing him and killed her, but he just ran away from Rakghouls.

I also find it funny how you place emphasis on Vader fighting Morne and the Rakghouls but glossed over Morne fighting Vader and the Clones for sections of that fight.

And no, it wasn't Muur's "full power." All she did was open herself up to it to turn people into Rakghouls. A feat she was casually doing throughout the rest of Vector. It was her awakening control over that power, not being able to access his full strength that somehow had something to do with Rakghouls. You also make light of her controlling the Rakghouls and actually tapping into the Amulet for power casually during battle while pretending she's weaker. Yet you wank her standing still and using the Amulet to make Rakghouls in a focused blast. Her control over the Amulet grew to a point where she could transform people from miles away, live and sleep with them, tap into the Amulet for raw power and halt her aging process. She was capable of repeating what she did to Vader with a handwave later on. She had much greater control over the Amulet without falling to Muur. If you think she could tap into it for his "full power" without being possessed, then why wouldn't she be capable of doing it later on when she has much greater control? Even though she used it so much easier and casually, she couldn't use it as well as the first time she opened herself up to its power? What?

If you question that she was using it specifically to create Rakghouls then ask yourself why she didn't lift a finger to chase after him and attack with her full power if her intention was to kill Vader?


Again, this is Vader months before his massive growth upon killing Roan Shryne, yet even here he can utterly dominate Morne in a fight: stomp her, even. 

Nope.

The best I can give you is that the Roan Shryne fight happened 2 months and 2 weeks after Sheev declared himself Emperor:

"No need to threaten us further," C-3P0 said. "I'm certain that Artoo isn't attempting to mislead you. We don't know the palace very well. You see, we've only been with our present master for two local months, and we're not very well acquainted with the layout."

"Where were you before two months ago?" Skeck asked. C-3P0 fell silent for a long moment. "Artoo, just where were we before that?"

The astromech honked and razzed.

---

"Good. Very good." Sidious smiled in satisfaction. "And now you are ready to release your anger."

Vader evinced confusion.

"Your fugitive Jedi, my apprentice," Sidious said. "They are traveling to Kashyyyk." He tipped his head to one side. "Perhaps, Lord Vader, they hope to lay a trap for you."

Vader clenched his hands. "That would be my most fervent wish, my Master."

Sidious clamped his hands on Vader's upper arms. "Then go to them, Lord Vader. Make them sorry they didn't hide while they had the chance!"

Vader then spent weeks training on his way to Kashyyyk, which means at least two, but probably not 8 weeks for instance. He then catches them at Kashyyyk and kills Roan. So we have a timeline of 2 months and "weeks" after ROTS. 4 months 1 week after ROTS it's also confirmed that Roan Shryne is dead in this document:

(16:5:22 is the day of the Purge btw)

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So we know it can't be more than 4 months after ROTS for instance. This is important because it's been 50 days since he's been to Coruscant, or 29 days/4 weeks/1 month since encountering Celeste.

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Which would mean that Celeste would have had to be about 1 month after ROTS and the entirety of Dark Times was condensed into 1 month.  Then Vader visits Sheev 1 week before trying to kill Roan on Alderaan, then visits him a week later. Which certainly isn't impossible though a little convoluted. The problem here is that Celeste's "meditation" awakening happened 3 months and 3 weeks after ROTS, so that timeline doesn't work:

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But no wait, OK, so Vader was told by Sheev to cut them off at Kashyyyk, so he waited 7 weeks to go find them on Kashyyyk after fighting Morne. Then 3 weeks after fighting Morne/Shryne he went to see Sheev when he hasn't seen him in 50 days. What this means is that although Sheev told Vader to go find Shryne immediately, he just went back to Coruscant after 3 weeks to go see Sheev for what? Another mission? To prove he didn't listen to a word he said? We know he phoned Sheev after killing Shryne so he couldn't have lied about that, so I'm failing to understand why he would ever go back to see Sheev?

On the other hand, Vader going to visit Sheev 2 months 3 weeks after killing Shryne, for instance, would work.

But if all that doesn't make sense, then here's a pic that says Shryne got murked a month after ROTS:

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So no matter what, Vader killed Shryne before fighting Celeste. What did you say about that exactly?

But on top of this, he’d also be facing Morne amped by Muur’s full power. Again, this is Vader months before his massive growth upon killing Roan Shryne, yet even here he can utterly dominate Morne in a fight: stomp her, even. 

Rainbows. But thanks for proving that he went into the Celeste fight with MASSIVE GROWTH so I don't have to. She experienced so much growth and he was garbage... turns out she experienced no growth - maybe even lost power - and he had MASSIVE GROWTH.

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You pointed to Krayt’s dispatching of half a dozen or so rakghouls as an example of a flaw in this argument, but I’m not sure you’ve taken into account their respective mentalities and motives here. Vader wanted an apprentice to help him overthrow Sidious. However, he soon realised that Morne would never submit and become his apprentice, and when she drew upon Muur’s full power (something I’m not sure she’d be able to replicate again to the same extent, considering that Muur was clearly taken by surprise) and also turned his dozen+ troopers into heavily armed rakghouls who could infect him with a scratch or bite, he realised his plan had failed and chose to retreat rather than fight a disadvantageous duel where he was outnumbered and facing the combined strength of a 4,000 year old Jedi and an ancient Sith lord.

Muur was taken by surprise because he didn't know she could do that without falling victim to him, not because the first time she uses it it's the best she will ever use it and can't replicate it again. Muur's spent thousands of years possessing people, she's the first to resist him. Obviously it's surprising when she not only can resist him but use his Rakghoul power.

Vader wanted an apprentice/power to help him overthrow Sidious, but ran away when he realized he'd die to Rakghouls. Like the second he was faced with them too. Beings he could have just ragdolled with the Force had him running away for miles.




By contrast, Krayt had nothing left to lose. He needed the talisman to save himself. Whether he was infected by the rakghoul plague or not, Krayt was desperate and needed Muur to save him. At this point, he wants Morne dead simply to save himself, meaning that he’d be operating with tunnel vision and a determination to do whatever it takes to accomplish his goal. The rakghouls would only enrage him, not make him cautious. At this point, he didn’t care if they infected him or not because he already knows the Vong seeds will kill him anyway. Unlike Vader, he had no other choice but to keep fighting, otherwise he’d suffer a far more horrible and painful death at the hands of his implants. Vader’s retreat and an enraged Krayt’s dispatching of the rakghouls attacking him are therefore not really comparable. 


Nope, Krayt already knew how to heal himself by that time:

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And he had a lot to lose like his life and his Empire that he's built for well over a century. He kept fighting. He had nothing to lose except he really wanted to live. He killed a bunch of Rakghouls after getting dogpiled when they turn people in seconds. Vader ran away from a similar number when he had range. Zero confidence in his abilities. Imagine if there was a game where you lost all your Force power and then you willingly traveled to an entire Undercity filled with Rakghouls? That'd be a pretty big hero, right?

Vader would never do that with his full power.



Interestingly, Morne makes no attempt to use the Force offensively against Vader, despite Muur being able to accomplish feats like reducing powerful Imperial Knights like Azlyn Rae to charred husks, one-shotting Antares (one of the top Imperial Knights), leaving a wounded Krayt on the brink of death and defenceless before his lightning blasts, sending Imperial Knights, Shado Vao, and Darth Maladi flying simply with the kinetic shockwave of her lightning attack on Krayt and Azlyn, and so on. 

Yes, very interesting. Almost like she only used it to turn people into Rakghouls and not access his full power.. ?

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here but to instill more doubt into your argument. But yes, it's crazy that Morne was trying to kill Vader but she didn't even attack him while she raised her own power traumatically. She powers up, sics a small force on him to kill Vader, then says "Nah, I can't use all this huge power I just acquired to kill the guy I want to kill. I'll just let him run away here."

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Now, let’s look at the fight with Krayt. First, Morne does incredibly well against him, with her loss being a gradual one despite being weakened by 156 years of constant mental and Force infighting:


So Morne, weakened by 156 years of constant mental warfare that could reduce even beings like Revan into a shadow of their former self (at least temporarily, before his rebirth and renewed mental focus) was able to go toe to toe with Krayt - who was determined to kill her to take the Muur talisman for himself - without Muur’s power, fighting him evenly and only losing “in time”. By contrast, an enraged Morne after 4,000 years of growth and in peak physical form (having just come from fighting a war and having been perfectly preserved by the oubliette) was being stomped by a vastly pre-prime, holding Vader, landing a single blow on him with a push at the very start before being dominated in the Force and then easily disarmed in sabers. The same Morne was then able to go toe to toe with Krayt in sabers, so at the very least 19 BBY Vader is a better swordsman than Krayt (who fought a weakened Morne who had no one to fight against or train with for 156 years), and is most likely more powerful in the Force.

Yes, Morne does do well against him. That's the entire point. That she does well against the most powerful guy in the galaxy. That she does well against a guy who "far outstripped" Wyyrlok III in Force power who only a year later would go on to do incredibly well against Krayt Reborn. She outdoes her previous showings and has reasons that would precipitate large growths in her power to back it up. Celeste's performance against Krayt almost necessitates growth, and then we can look in the lore to understand why this could be possible. With nothing to contradict it besides one tie to Revan's imprisonment, and the entire lore of Force users to back it up, we can assume she grew. That's the difference. You don't have to go far to assume she grew - every character mentioned here grew over time. You don't have to cherrypick one example and only connect it on a surface level. You can contrast her performances and ask why that's possible and go "Oh right, Force users grow over time."

But we'll get back to the implications of your post here while trying to ignore the contradictions.

You're arguing that Roan Shryne > Celeste out of a 4000-year coma. You're then arguing that for 156 years Celeste's power decreased which means that Krayt wasn't far above a very weakened Celeste. If put on a scale chain, this would come out to:

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader > ANH Vader > TFU Vader > MASSIVE GROWTH 19BBY!Vader >> 19BBY!Vader > Roan Shryne > 19BBY!Celeste >> 156ABY!Celeste < Darth Maladi/Vong Krayt

Does that seem a little skeptical to you?


What’s key here is that Morne wasn’t drawing on Muur's power until later in the duel:

Just because that's when it's noted she's drawing on his power doesn't preclude it from happening earlier. In that duel alone she could summon Rakhouls mid-jump. She was revealed to be tapping into its power to halt her aging this entire time as proven when she turned into dust the second she died.

Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Scree123


It was steeped in the Darkside. One would argue that tapping into it for an amp would be the easiest part of using it if they were so inclined. She was very adept at using it with a ton of experience; I'm not sure why her facing 2 Sith blasting her with lightning - while she's using tutaminis with one hand and a saber with the other which is not easy to do at all - would choose the absolute tail-end of the fight to only then start tapping into the Amulet for power? She didn't want anyone to take the Amulet, the idea that she'd be fighting at a lesser level for literally no reason and risk dying seems very foolhardy to say the least.

[hideedit]


Last edited by Quorian Debatist on Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Quorian Debatist

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on Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:26 am
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Conclusion

1. Morne had 4,000 years of growth in similar conditions to the likes of Revan and Master Wyllett, who were able to use their imprisonment to undergo personal and spiritual growth that skyrocketed their power.

2. Morne was forced to actively fight Morne for 156 years in a similar confrontation to that of beings like Revan; a confrontation that could reduce considerably more powerful beings like Revan Reborn into a fraction of their former power levels (Foundry Revan). While Morne was not fighting this war of attrition for as long, she was undeniably mentally drained and weakening by Legacy.

3. An immensely pre-prime, holding back Vader who’d yet to undergo his huge growth from killing Roan Shryne was able to utterly dominate Morne when she was bloodlusted, fresh out of 4,000 years of growth and determined to stop him from taking control of the talisman. 

4. Morne had to tap into the full power of the talisman to even drive Vader away, and even then she had to rely on numbers and her huge amp to accomplish even that. By contrast, a weaker Morne was able to go toe to toe with Krayt, and would have lost in what would have been a war of attrition. 

5. Vader’s retreat in the face of overwhelming odds and the combined power of two millennia old beings and an enraged and desperate Krayt’s dispatching of the rakghouls attacking him with lightning are not comparable. One had other options, the other did not.

6. If an enraged Morne in her mental and spiritual/Force prime was dominated by Vader whereas a weaker version of the same character was able to fight and hold her own against Krayt for a considerable amount of time in a war of attrition, it stands to reason that 19 BBY Vader was considerably stronger than this version of Krayt.

Hope you don’t mind that I haven’t replied to the Krayt tomb argument. It was a stupid point that I raised and it made little to no sense.





Ran out of spaces for paragraphs:

She was cut off from the Force to the rest of the galaxy and asleep the entire time. Both Revan and Wyellett needed time to recuperate after they were released which Celeste had no time to do. "Skyrocketed." Skywalkerted
"Undeniably." Revan had vastly more dire things wrong with him than Celeste had as well as physical aspects to a decrease in power and no time to regather his full power. Celeste's willpower to her duty never wavered and she never wanted Muur to get into the wrong hands. Revan went crazy among other things.
Yes, you make note that she was determined to stop him from getting the Talisman. The problem is that this issue was prevalent throughout Legacy as well which you completely glossed over so I'm not sure how you can add this as a benefit for 19BBY!Celeste but not realize it applies throughout Legacy as well. The Celeste fight also happened after Shryne died anyway. You can't bank on Wookiepedaphile to feed you completely accurate information without looking into it yourself. Otherwise, these threads would just devolve into Wookiepedia citations and screenshots.
Morne tapped into the Amulet, but she didn't increase her power, nor did she test it against Vader even if she had. We don't know if she went overboard, used just enough power, or used too little per us lacking details. It could have been overkill or it could have been a good battle; we don't know. Had she utilized his entire power it would mean she used her full power and Vader ran away, that's it. That doesn't point to a great battle nor does it mean it required his entire power, just that it would have been used. We've seen this in action when Luke's Order joined together to kill Exar Kun. It was overkill, but that doesn't mean that it required every last one of them and nothing less, just that they used that amount of power to kill him. Unless you want to argue that Exar Kun is equal to the entire Order had they lost one random member and therefore above the Swords of Light empowered by any 5 members.
Both had options. One chose to stay and fight and take the fight to the enemy. One chose to run away. We know Krayt can overcome a sudden dogpile and then fight the subsequent Sith who lacks any of your stated downsides, but we don't know if Vader can. We just know he thinks it's death to try.
If any of that were true, I wouldn't exactly disagree. The problem is that none of it works out.
I am not opposed to concessions no, so I don't mind at all.


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Regained the power to paragraph:

But here's the problem. You just wanked her growth due to 4000 years in stasis with Muur. If we apply your same arguments to her willpower outside of the oubliette then wouldn't that speak to an increase in power? You've stated that she logically had nothing to do but "grow stronger both physically and spiritually" but wouldn't that be exactly what she's doing outside the oubliette to ensure no one comes and takes Muur away from her? Wouldn't she be training in isolation to make sure no one can threaten her? We already know she can easily access the Amulet's power, so why would she increase in her control over that but offer zero focus to her own innate power when her training was incomplete? No, it's not 4000 years, but why is it logical to assume she grew more physically and spiritually when she was sleeping than when she could practice her Force techniques and physically move around and train? When she could actually meditate and commune with the Force? Your entire argument was basically a reason that she would actually experience growth as opposed to a stark decline for decades. If your mediation theory is wrong, you were still rallying for growth and indirectly arguing she should experience it. If you were correct on meditation and correct on her power eroding it would still build towards a crescendo until it started decreasing from there, not the entire time. Basically even if you were right on the broad details, your finer details are wrong to a point where you hurt your own argument. She did not decrease the entire time, only towards the end. You just argued that Revan's willpower battle increased his strength until he reached his breaking point which would mean that Celeste now having a willpower battle apparently that entire time would gradually increase until she reached her breaking point, not the entire time.

Even if her willpower did impede her power - based purely on likening her to Revan - that she would have still have experienced 156 years of growth. We know she only started to lose control in her Legacy appearances so we would assume it's not a factor until then. What that means is that your excuses don't come into play until Legacy starts. She didn't decrease in power for 156 years. She only started getting impacted per your reasoning after 156 years. For you to be correct we'd have to conveniently state that any sort of willpower issue destroys all growth and places our characters back at base levels. But what are base levels to someone who's been training in the Force for likely 170 years? How much growth can we erase? Did it conveniently remove all her growth after she would have left stasis? Why did it stop there? Why not 160 years? 169 years? What is so special about her leaving stasis in regards to her power? She has no level she's attached to so there wouldn't be some sort of baseline she'd boomerang back to. If she declines after that growth, there's no reason it erases over 7 times her normal experience and brings her down to the first level seen in comics. She would still experience huge growth but all it would do is cap her from her theoretical "peak" as opposed to hardcap her below her KOTOR levels. You're basically saying that one negative overrides many positives.

Iirc you're an Anakin... KFV fan as well. Would you be of the opinion that Mustafar Vader was actually weaker than AOTC Anakin? That Mustafar Vader who was clouded in rage and making retarded mistakes diminished in power below his self 3 years prior? Was Darth Maul vs Sheev weaker than his TPM self because Sidious scared the shit out of him? Just because someone might hit a wall for a time, that doesn't mean they revert to a power that was never important.

It's like what KoB always says:

"Just because Anakin loses to ROTJ Vader, that doesn't mean he loses to 18BBY! Vader, dawg."

It's not just the common sense that she'd grow in power either - with her potentially completing her Force training and prodding the depths of the Amulet - it's that she never seemed weaker in power either. She was portrayed above everyone she came across aside from Krayt. At no point was her power in doubt against anyone except ceding control to Muur. She wasn't being treated like a KOTOR Jedi Knight, nor was she put up against something that should be beneath her. Even against the only person that had her overmatched, you use her staving off the most powerful being in the galaxy while he has a backup, and you use this concurrently to try and prove she is somewhere below... KOTOR level? Her use of the Force was still portrayed as high, and she could still tap into the Amulet for more power to offset any potential depowerment.

So yes, even if... even if her powers did diminish in any capacity, that's not proof it diminished from her stasis self. It would only lead us to believe she diminished from a possible higher level. It would still make it her peak, but just not as good as she can potentially be. It would make it irrelevant to point out. Luckily Muur taking over her body bypasses that cap entirely.



You argue that Muur could take control whenever he wanted but he needs Celeste out of the way to take control whenever he wanted. If he is now the dominant force, then that's exactly what he wants. He just wants a body he can control so he can spread Rakghouls everywhere. If he can just choose on a moment's notice when to take control then he's won and he never has to go back. Celeste was a problem because he couldn't take control whenever he wants and he was still very much a prisoner. That when she wasn't being forced to draw on anger or get distracted that he'd be locked back away in her mind while she went back to isolation. Arguing that he can take control whenever he wants but he needs her dead are self-defeating points on your end. It can't be both. Yes, he was gaining a foothold but she was still very much the dominant force in that relationship, even per your own arguments.



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So that's all I really disagree with, but besides those minor issues, we pretty much agree here. Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 1019854026

@Xolthol
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

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on Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:42 am
Greysentinel365 wrote:Honestly the Celeste fight might be one of Vader's poorest feats. I have no idea why BoD is trying to draw attention to it.
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The lord of hunger

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on Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:50 am
That was a gigantic post Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 1019854026
xolthol
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

on Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:28 pm
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@Quorian Debatist Why did you tag me ? (Not that I'm not uninterrested by your post but don't understand why)
xolthol
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on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:06 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) Too late, I've seen your post
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on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:08 pm
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Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 Star_w10
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Quorian Debatist

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on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:08 pm
Just screwing around largely to see if I could drag people into threads. Power unrealized will be realized. Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 1019854026
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:14 pm
Well then...
xolthol
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on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:16 pm
@Quorian Debatist Yes and it is the reason why you only tagg me?  Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 2960029119
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Quorian Debatist

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on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:22 pm
I had Decaf tagged but I wanted to save it for another post. I didn't like the way two tags looked at the end, and you were online when I was writing that post is all.

The confusion it caused is entertaining enough to do again. Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett - Page 5 4037459623
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:22 pm
can u answer my question?
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