Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

EmperorCaedus wrote:Check the edit.

The majority of the forum supports the stance that Malak is > Kun due to that quote, nothing much you can do there.

KingofBlades wrote:

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and
holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish
this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely
been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that
the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone
eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to
survive death had been limited to those with a talent for
sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices
actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend
life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect
the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to
saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy,compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate.

So we have Plagueis contemplating the feats of the ancient sith like Exar Kun and Naga Sadow. In order to rationalize the grandeur of these feats he posits that the dark side may have been more powerful back then. The need to rationalize these feats implies that none of the banite sith preceding him ,including Tenebrous, were powerful enough to replicate these feats. Now one might say that one must have the gift for sorcery so this wouldn't be proof of the ancients's superiority over Tenebrous, who did not possess the gift of sorcery. However if this were true and Plagueis thought that Tenebrous was indeed more powerful than the ancients, his theory that the dark side was more powerful back then would not have been needed. So it's very likely that Plagueis believes the ancients were above all of the banite line preceding him.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@EmperorCaedus:

The majority of the forum supports the stance that Malak is > Kun due to that quote, nothing much you can do there.

I don't particularly care about the details of this debate and never have, I think the meaning of the quote in question is fairly clear, but appealing to popularity isn't, and never will be, a suitable substitute for compelling argumentation.

He claimed that I was debunked by others, so I basically said I wasn’t.

Both of your quotes have been debunked, by me

LadyKulvax wrote:I've wrecked you three times on this topic, do you need reminding in every thread?

The Malak quote is either limited perspective or straight up wrong and worse, is from a source that no longer exists because it was removed and replaced, and then its replacement was replaced. Per Herndon himself the entire article is subject to gameplay updates. Better yet, KotOR and KotOR II:TSL's internal scaling results in Malak being sub-Nihilus, who is at best sub-Nadd per his own game. Who is massively sub-Exar Kun.

The Maul quote is from a DK children's book that only covers the duels in the live-action movies. It doesn't cover Legends, it isn't even Legends itself. It's a Canon guide.

How many times must this be explained to you before you stop ignoring these replies and regurgitating the same claim elsewhere?

Wizards of the Coast: Darth Malak wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Handbook wrote:It is clear from the duel [Qui Gon vs Darth Maul] that the sith are alive and more powerful than ever before.

Isv wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:I've wrecked you three times on this topic, do you need reminding in every thread?

The Malak quote is either limited perspective or straight up wrong and worse, is from a source that no longer exists because it was removed and replaced, and then its replacement was replaced. Per Herndon himself the entire article is subject to gameplay updates. Better yet, KotOR and KotOR II:TSL's internal scaling results in Malak being sub-Nihilus, who is at best sub-Nadd per his own game. Who is massively sub-Exar Kun.

The Maul quote is from a DK children's book that only covers the duels in the live-action movies. It doesn't cover Legends, it isn't even Legends itself. It's a Canon guide.

How many times must this be explained to you before you stop ignoring these replies and regurgitating the same claim elsewhere?

I know you've been around awhile and think you are vastly superior to me, but please heed my advice when I say you should stop talking to these people right now, you have better things to do with your time then debate a point you will never convince people on, and no matter how invested you get it only succeeds in hurting you, I speak from the heart AP, I speak from experience. let it go my man

LadyKulvax wrote:Debunking and defeating them in public serves to inspire more open minds to accept Kun into their hearts.

EmperorCaedus wrote:Plagueis saying the old masters are far more powerful obviously extremely biased. Plagueis only had holocrons. Not much you can go off in there. Plageuis is also stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

KingofBlades wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:Plagueis saying the old masters are far more powerful obviously extremely biased. Plagueis only had holocrons. Not much you can go off in there. Plageuis is also stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

Prove Plagueis has a positive bias towards the ancients

EmperorCaedus wrote:

Wizards of the Coast: Darth Malak wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

States as clearly superior to Kun. I don’t care if you don’t like the source, it is what it is.

Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Handbook wrote:It is clear from the duel [Qui Gon vs Darth Maul] that the sith are alive and more powerful than ever before.

Clearly states that the first return of the Sith (Maul) is more powerful than ever before. KotOR and before is included in this quote, while the Revan novel and SWTOR are excluded due to Ant’s shedding limitations. Which means Maul is >> Malak.

Cory Herndon on Twitter wrote:since that supplement is no longer even available in its original form, whatever the current official stance is would be the correct one.

Cory Herndon on Twitter wrote:If there exist hard, LFL-approved stats that say otherwise about Kun and Malak, follow those.

KotOR: Campaign Guide wrote:

[size=30]Darth Malak, Sith Magnus Statistics (CL 20)

[size=30]
Medium Human  Jedi  7/Jedi Knight  5/Sith Apprentice  4/Sith Lord  4

Destiny Points : 2; Force Points : 8; Dark Side Score : 15
[/size]

[/size]

KotOR: Campaign Guide wrote:

[size=30]Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith Statistics (CL 20)

[size=30]
Medium Human  Jedi  7/Jedi Knight  3/Sith Apprentice  5/Sith Lord  5

Destiny Points : 3; Force Points : 8; Dark Side Score : 15
[/size]

[/size]

Champions of the Force Preview 5 wrote:Darth Malak: Four thousand years before the creation of the Empire, the Republic faced many enemies and endured many wars. When the Mandalorians attacked the Republic, the Jedi were split -- join the fighting or stay out of it?
Ultimately, two Jedi ignored the will of the Jedi Council and plunged into battle. Revan and Malak led the Republic forces; the former provided clever tactics, and the latter was relentless and reckless in combat. The two pursued their enemies into the Unknown Regions. They returned as Sith Lords backed by a huge military force from an unknown source.
Darth Malak started as an apprentice but soon became the master. With the Sith forces at his command, he tore through the Republic, razing entire planets. His success was short lived, however, and he fell to an unexpected enemy.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:Darth Malak was not always a model Dark Lord. He was once a compassionate Jedi Knight. In fact, Republic citizens' sufferings so move the young Jedi Alex Squinquargesimus during the Mandalorian Wars that he rebels-along with his good friend Revan-against the Jedi Council's decree of inaction. The young Jedi helps recruit thousands of Jedi to spearhead the war against he Mandalorians, and they drive back the invaders. Yet sweeping victories correspond all too frequently with proportionately devastating moral compromises. Day by day, Alex perceives himself sliding toward the dark side, but sees no alternative. The horrors of war are not a mystery, and he knew he would face this dilemma.
Just as he intends, Alek saves the galaxy. Victorious against the Mandalorians, he realizes that all his efforts may be for naught if a strong hand does not steer the galaxy. In actuality, besides himself, he knows he can trust only the soldiers he had fought alongside, because they are capable defenders. Sharing these thoughts with Revan, Alek finds his brother-in-arms agrees.
Now Alex understands the dark side. It is named from ignorance: the ignorance of never having killed, or never having ordered friends to their deaths, of always thinking today is your day to die-all for wards, unwilling to fight for their own safety-and ignorance of what it means to wield so much power. Revan, or course, understands completely.
After the Mandalorian Wars, Alek and Revan subsume themselves in Korriban and Malachor V's Sith occultism and use the Star Forge super weapon to churn out war material almost limitless. Alek then becomes Darth Malak of the remade Sith Empire, apprentice to Darth Revan. The Republic conquest initially goes well, but in time, Malak ses Lord Revan as soft, resulting in a tension that culminates in a lightsaber duel; Malak loses his lower jaw to Revan's blade, necessitating a metallic jaw guard. Returning the favor, Malak fires on Revan's flagship. Unaware that the Jedi have captured the traitor, Malak assumes the crown of ruling Dark Lord, inheriting the empire. With Admiral Saul Karath, Malak's fleet spreads terror and he cultivates Darth Bandon and Bastila Shan as his pupils. However, Malak faces Revan again, this time as a reconditioned Jedi. In the rematch, Malak's twisted dream of protecting the galaxy dies with him.

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"The Dark Side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi masters."

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place.

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:It is a great technique that you have learned. Gifted only to the highest of Jedi Masters - and the Sith - this technique makes your Force powers more difficult to resist... and they will last longer as well. 

Knights of the Old Republic Official Prima Game Guide wrote:Combat is fraught and frantic, but [ends with Revan's] victory.

Knights of the Old Republic wrote:This door is held closed by some great power.

SWTOR Codex Entry wrote:Part of Kreia’s plan involved decimating the Jedi Order. On Dantooine, Kreia severed Masters Vrook Lmar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell from the Force, killing them within the Jedi Enclave.

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

Bastila wrote:We should have felt a disturbance in the Force when the attack came. The fact that we did not is a bad sign. I fear the dark side is growing stronger, casting shadows our vision cannot piece."

Bastila wrote:"Did you feel that? A disturbance in the Force. The Admiral has sent is message, the Dark Lord knows we are here now. Malak is coming... We better get moving. I can feel the darkness of Malak's presence approaching, and I don't want to be here when he arrives. None of us is a match for the Sith Lord."

The Conclave At Katarr Codex Entry wrote:Worse, many Jedi sensed a new Sith threat emerging but could not pinpoint the source. Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order’s Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony.

The Essential Atlas wrote:The Sith seemed to have achieved the victory they had long sought. Less than one hundred Jedi, nearly all of them in hiding, survived the Sith's purge. Many citizens took this unimaginable event as proof that the Force had turned malevolent, or that cosmic balance was nothing more than a story for children. Despair was palpable, and many planets offered only halfhearted and ragged defense against Sith attackers. Planets throughout the slice surrendered, and the Sith fed on the psychic misery of a shattered Republic.

Visas Marr, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:I can taste the power of the dark side here. Freedon Nadd must have been truly great to leave such an impact. The echoes of his life are still here."

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"It is a technique that has been lost for some time. Not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other force sensitives... The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith."

Chris Avellone wrote:"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

Sith Captain, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"The Sith Master says we'll have reinforcements soon, when I ask for details he says it's a 'surprise'. I hate the ones with a sense of humor."

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide wrote:Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight.