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LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

July 31st 2019, 7:39 pm
NotAA3 wrote:@LadyKulvax It's incredible to me that you still hold to these arguments despite not being able to convince a single soul.
That assumes I care about convincing anyone.
DarthAnt66
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July 31st 2019, 7:41 pm
Well it's debatably malleable given it clearly sets a larger OOU timeline reference at the start. 

The time-frame reference is from the founding of the Republic to 4000 BBY, ergo "since the founding of the Republic."

But no, it means Exar Kun is a bigger threat than the Star Forge and arguably the Emperor given that he existed as of 2008 on SWTOR's website under the original 'The Sith Empire' article.

Neither Vitiate's Sith Empire nor the Star Forge were active threats that the galaxy had to face yet. The quote isn't referring to dormant threats.

"Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!"

Though, as I said earlier, it clearly covers the Star Forge, the source of Malak's power growth which is what the web enhancement is referring to with its question.

I'm not sure how you could quantify Exar Kun vs the Star Forge anyway. 

And again, why is the quote referring specifically to Exar Kun rather than the whole Brotherhood of the Sith and Great Sith War that killed trillions?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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July 31st 2019, 7:47 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:They literally started rage quitting towards the end or refused to counter my posts. Lmfao. Stop pretending you even know what debates I'm talking about.


Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!

GGWP
Is this the whole quote? Because I fail to see how this would apply to threats after Exar Kun

Or why "greatest threat" isn't referring to Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith but Kun specifically.

Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.
DarthAnt66
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July 31st 2019, 7:48 pm
Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.

I'm not following. That has no bearing on whether the quote is referring to him or his entire Sith organization and their machinations as a whole.

And if you look at the next line in the blurb, the emphasis is definitely more on the war as a whole than just Exar Kun:

Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Galactic Republic.

In a time when Jedi were numerous and the Sith Empire but a bitter memory, an ancient evil rose again, corrupting one of the Jedi’s finest and igniting a war that ravaged worlds. The Sith were reborn, ties of friendship and family were betrayed, and the course of the galaxy's future is forever altered.
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July 31st 2019, 7:51 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:
NotAA3 wrote:@LadyKulvax It's incredible to me that you still hold to these arguments despite not being able to convince a single soul.
That assumes I care about convincing anyone.
 
Why do you continue to prop up others failing to convince you of the quote then? It seems lots of others have been swayed, but you remaining unconvinced is a strong point of yours. So why wouldn't failing to convince others strike a point against you?

From the context of this conversation it seems like 4 of the best debaters convinced a whole host of believers with one outlier - you.
You haven't convinced anyone it appears... ?

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NevesYtneves
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July 31st 2019, 7:53 pm
This thread is now bookmarked.
LadyKulvax
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July 31st 2019, 7:54 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Well it's debatably malleable given it clearly sets a larger OOU timeline reference at the start. 

The time-frame reference is from the founding of the Republic to 4000 BBY, ergo "since the founding of the Republic."

But no, it means Exar Kun is a bigger threat than the Star Forge and arguably the Emperor given that he existed as of 2008 on SWTOR's website under the original 'The Sith Empire' article.

Neither Vitiate's Sith Empire nor the Star Forge were active threats that the galaxy had to face yet. The quote isn't referring to dormant threats.

"Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!"

Though, as I said earlier, it clearly covers the Star Forge, the source of Malak's power growth which is what the web enhancement is referring to with its question.

I'm not sure how you could quantify Exar Kun vs the Star Forge anyway. 

And again, why is the quote referring specifically to Exar Kun rather than the whole Brotherhood of the Sith and Great Sith War that killed trillions?

1.I realise that.  Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 2 2960029119

2.Yeah the emphasis is absolutely not on 'faces' in that quote. That they are facing him isn't relevant to the latter statement that he's the greatest threat to the galaxy ever at this point. It's not limited by that wording at all.
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July 31st 2019, 7:58 pm
DC77 wrote:This thread is now bookmarked.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

July 31st 2019, 7:59 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.

I'm not following. That has no bearing on whether the quote is referring to him or his entire Sith organization and their machinations as a whole.

And if you look at the next line in the blurb, the emphasis is definitely more on the war as a whole than just Exar Kun:

Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Galactic Republic.

In a time when Jedi were numerous and the Sith Empire but a bitter memory, an ancient evil rose again, corrupting one of the Jedi’s finest and igniting a war that ravaged worlds. The Sith were reborn, ties of friendship and family were betrayed, and the course of the galaxy's future is forever altered.

You do realise that whether or not it is only him or the brotherhood as a whole, it doesn't really matter, right? He's so far above the rest of the Brotherhood that the Jedi saw that even after they'd easily taken out Ulic on Coruscant, with literally just Vodo and Nomi and a few nubs, they decide they have to attack Kun with the entire Jedi Order using their most devastating power and effectively base delta zero Yavin IV to stop Kun.
DarthAnt66
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July 31st 2019, 7:59 pm
2.Yeah the emphasis is absolutely not on 'faces' in that quote. That they are facing him isn't relevant to the latter statement that he's the greatest threat to the galaxy ever at this point. It's not limited by that wording at all.

Consider this statement here: "The school faces its greatest challenge since 2002." (in reference to a student bringing in a knife to school)

This statement wouldn't include the giant flesh-eating monster hiding in the basement if the school had yet to discover and confront the monster yet.
NevesYtneves
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July 31st 2019, 8:02 pm
Consider this statement here: "The school faces its greatest challenge since 2002." (in reference to a student bringing in a knife to school)

This statement wouldn't include the giant flesh-eating monster hiding in the basement if the school had yet to discover and confront the monster yet.

Dead.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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July 31st 2019, 8:04 pm
That assumes that the ignorance of the school is relevant when the source is OOU. Nor does that work in your favor. Because the galaxy is aware of the Star Forge, because the Emperor literally tells Revan and Malak about it to go and find it. Clearly he is aware of it prior to that point through some source and knows how immensely threatening it is to him, given Revan himself knows he can use it to stop Vitiate's Empire.
DarthAnt66
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July 31st 2019, 8:05 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.

I'm not following. That has no bearing on whether the quote is referring to him or his entire Sith organization and their machinations as a whole.

And if you look at the next line in the blurb, the emphasis is definitely more on the war as a whole than just Exar Kun:

Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Galactic Republic.

In a time when Jedi were numerous and the Sith Empire but a bitter memory, an ancient evil rose again, corrupting one of the Jedi’s finest and igniting a war that ravaged worlds. The Sith were reborn, ties of friendship and family were betrayed, and the course of the galaxy's future is forever altered.

You do realise that whether or not it is only him or the brotherhood as a whole, it doesn't really matter, right? He's so far above the rest of the Brotherhood that the Jedi saw that even after they'd easily taken out Ulic on Coruscant, with literally just Vodo and Nomi and a few nubs, they decide they have to attack Kun with the entire Jedi Order using their most devastating power and effectively base delta zero Yavin IV to stop Kun.

Exar Kun isn't a greater threat to the galaxy than the collective force of tens of thousands of Sith and warships killing trillions across countless worlds.
DarthAnt66
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July 31st 2019, 8:08 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:That assumes that the ignorance of the school is relevant when the source is OOU. Nor does that work in your favor. Because the galaxy is aware of the Star Forge, because the Emperor literally tells Revan and Malak about it to go and find it. Clearly he is aware of it prior to that point through some source and knows how immensely threatening it is to him, given Revan himself knows he can use it to stop Vitiate's Empire.

No, that's not relevant. My statement, "The school faces its greatest challenge since 2002," can be read from an OOU and still be just as true.

And Revan and Malak had already found information on the Star Forge prior to meeting Vitiate. Gnost-Dural's account suggesting Vitiate directed them to find the Star Forge isn't reliable. Regardless, the galaxy never even faced the threat of the Star Forge yet -- especially not ramped up to degree that Malak did -- not to mention, again, there's no way to actually quantify the "threat-level" of Exar Kun versus the "threat-level" of a Force-imbued space station that can produce limitless warships. 
LadyKulvax
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July 31st 2019, 8:12 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.

I'm not following. That has no bearing on whether the quote is referring to him or his entire Sith organization and their machinations as a whole.

And if you look at the next line in the blurb, the emphasis is definitely more on the war as a whole than just Exar Kun:

Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Galactic Republic.

In a time when Jedi were numerous and the Sith Empire but a bitter memory, an ancient evil rose again, corrupting one of the Jedi’s finest and igniting a war that ravaged worlds. The Sith were reborn, ties of friendship and family were betrayed, and the course of the galaxy's future is forever altered.

You do realise that whether or not it is only him or the brotherhood as a whole, it doesn't really matter, right? He's so far above the rest of the Brotherhood that the Jedi saw that even after they'd easily taken out Ulic on Coruscant, with literally just Vodo and Nomi and a few nubs, they decide they have to attack Kun with the entire Jedi Order using their most devastating power and effectively base delta zero Yavin IV to stop Kun.

Exar Kun isn't a greater threat to the galaxy than the collective force of tens of thousands of Sith and warships killing trillions across countless worlds.
Darth Sidious isn't a greater threat to the galaxy than the collective force of tens of thousands of armies and warships killing trillions across countless worlds. Yeah, because all of that happened without a centralfigure causing it all.

They have a few hundred Sith at most, and given that the war and brotherhood needs to be instigated by Kun to become such a threat anyway, it's really not true. Kun at his height doesn't have any allies but the entire Jedi Order turns up when five of them went to take down the only serious contender for Kun there was in Ulic.
NevesYtneves
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July 31st 2019, 8:12 pm
Ant wasting time on AP he could be using to respond to my request on Discord.

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 2 1080668327
DarthAnt66
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July 31st 2019, 8:19 pm
Darth Sidious isn't a greater threat to the galaxy than the collective force of tens of thousands of armies and warships killing trillions across countless worlds. Yeah, because all of that happened without a centralfigure causing it all.

Unfortunately, I'm not following. Though I will say that if the quote referred to the Galactic Empire, I would contest any scaling off Palpatine likewise. 

They have a few hundred Sith at most, and given that the war and brotherhood needs to be instigated by Kun to become such a threat anyway, it's really not true. Kun at his height doesn't have any allies but the entire Jedi Order turns up when five of them went to take down the only serious contender for Kun there was in Ulic.

The images related to the Dark Reaper conflict show hundreds of dark Jedi on a single battlefield. But, I'll go with your few hundreds number:

(A) Those "few hundred Sith," the Krath, the Mandalorians, Corsair, Dark Reaper, and related forces led to the deaths of "trillions" and the destruction of many planets.

(B) Exar Kun, by his own hand, converted twenty-some Jedi to the dark side and killed a few Jedi.

In terms of whether A or B actualized a greater threat to the galaxy on a physical level -- which is what you're arguing -- it's clearly not Kun. And, unless you want to argue Kun's own raw destructive powers could eclipse that of all his forces combined, his potential threat-level isn't greater than his Empire's either. (Note that the Dark Reaper could destroy armies with a single attack and the Corsair could destroy solar systems if manipulated properly, so that would be a very contentious claim). 

And the kicker is that the quote refers to the threat-level of Kun, all his forces, and all his super-weapons.
LadyKulvax
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July 31st 2019, 8:23 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:That assumes that the ignorance of the school is relevant when the source is OOU. Nor does that work in your favor. Because the galaxy is aware of the Star Forge, because the Emperor literally tells Revan and Malak about it to go and find it. Clearly he is aware of it prior to that point through some source and knows how immensely threatening it is to him, given Revan himself knows he can use it to stop Vitiate's Empire.

No, that's not relevant. My statement, "[size=33]The school faces its greatest challenge since 2002," can be read from an OOU and still be just as true.[/size]

[size=33]And Revan and Malak had already found information on the Star Forge prior to meeting Vitiate. Gnost-Dural's account suggesting Vitiate directed them to find the Star Forge isn't reliable. Regardless, the galaxy never even faced the threat of the Star Forge yet -- especially not ramped up to degree that Malak did -- not to mention, again, there's no way to actually quantify the "threat-level" of Exar Kun versus the "threat-level" of a Force-imbued space station that can produce limitless warships. [/size]
But the ignorance of the school is irrelevant in an OOU source that references all of time since the Republic's founding and across the entire galaxy.


The Foundry Codex Entry wrote:The Foundry appears to be at least twenty to thirty thousand years old, built by a long-forgotten alien species. Its specifications resemble those of three other space stations discovered by the Empire, each possessing vast power–one, the “Star Forge,” constructed fleets of warships, while another was capable of xenoforming entire planets. The extent of the Foundry’s production capabilities are as yet unknown, but if history is any guide, the station could change the galaxy.

You're wrong, Gnost-Dural isn't the only source. The Empire discovered the Star Forge first, Revan and Malak were merely sent to recover it in secret on the Emperor's behalf.
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July 31st 2019, 8:26 pm
Going by your logic that the quote applies to all of history. Exar Kun>Darth Sidious,Valkorion, Abeloth
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July 31st 2019, 8:31 pm
Butt out King, Gods are debating, we mortals cannot comprehend this genius.
LadyKulvax
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July 31st 2019, 8:42 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Darth Sidious isn't a greater threat to the galaxy than the collective force of tens of thousands of armies and warships killing trillions across countless worlds. Yeah, because all of that happened without a centralfigure causing it all.

Unfortunately, I'm not following. Though I will say that if the quote referred to the Galactic Empire, I would contest any scaling off Palpatine likewise. 

They have a few hundred Sith at most, and given that the war and brotherhood needs to be instigated by Kun to become such a threat anyway, it's really not true. Kun at his height doesn't have any allies but the entire Jedi Order turns up when five of them went to take down the only serious contender for Kun there was in Ulic.

The images related to the Dark Reaper conflict show hundreds of dark Jedi on a single battlefield. But, I'll go with your few hundreds number:

(A) Those "few hundred Sith," the Krath, the Mandalorians, Corsair, Dark Reaper, and related forces led to the deaths of "trillions" and the destruction of many planets.

(B) Exar Kun, by his own hand, converted twenty-some Jedi to the dark side and killed a few Jedi.

In terms of whether A or B actualized a greater threat to the galaxy on a physical level -- which is what you're arguing -- it's clearly not Kun. And, unless you want to argue Kun's own raw destructive powers could eclipse that of all his forces combined, his potential threat-level isn't greater than his Empire's either. (Note that the Dark Reaper could destroy armies with a single attack and the Corsair could destroy solar systems if manipulated properly, so that would be a very contentious claim). 

And the kicker is that the quote refers to the threat-level of Kun, all his forces, and all his super-weapons.

So you think those collective military assets compare to a dark side super weapon which can create an endless amount of ships and Jedi-slaughtering droids?

Because guess what, Kun is a bigger threat because of his power. Just as the Emperor is, to answer your question of how a person's power compares to the Star Forge:


Star Wars The Old Republic: Encyclopedia wrote:He and Malak had found something. He couldn’t remember what it was, or where it was, but he feared it on a deep, primal level. Somehow he knew that whatever the terrible secret might be, it was a threat far greater than the Mandalorians or the Star Forge. And Revan was convinced it was still out there.

As an individual Exar Kun is the biggest threat and we know he is because he's far more powerful and dangerous than anything else of his time. He's confirmed to be so, he can even scale from the Dark Reaper. It's undebatable at this point.

It actually suits really stupidly well with one of his other accolades:


Dark Apprentice wrote:While the New Republic struggles to decide what to do with the deadly Sun Crusher —a new doomsday weapon  stolen from the Empire by Han Solo —the renegade Imperial Admiral  Daala  uses her fleet of Star Destroyers  to conduct guerrilla warfare on peaceful planets . And now she threatens the watery homeworld  of Admiral Gial Ackbar .
But as the battle for a planet rages, an even greater danger arises at Luke Skywalker's  Jedi academyA brilliant student  delves dangerously into the dark side of the Force  and unleashes the spirit  of an ancient master  of the evil order  that warped Darth Vader  himself. Working together, they may become an enemy greater than any the New Republic has ever fought… more powerful than even a Jedi Master  can face.


In other words, Exar Kun who is confirmed to be a greater threat than Kyp in the same book:


Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

Is a greater threat than Daala's Imperial war machine which can destroy planets. Extremely powerful Sith Lords are bigger and more dangerous threats than any military strength. That's been known since 1977.

The reason it is relevant here is because the Star Forge is a dark side nexus that Malak can drain power from and is the source of his strength. That's the big deal here.
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July 31st 2019, 8:44 pm
Flunky Cyborg wrote:Butt out King, Gods are debating, we mortals cannot comprehend this genius.

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 2 Giphy

nah but forreal if I see a logical fallacy I'm going to comment on it.
DarthAnt66
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July 31st 2019, 8:44 pm
But the ignorance of the school is irrelevant in an OOU source that references all of time since the Republic's founding and across the entire galaxy.

The fact it references all of time or spans the galaxy has no bearing to my point. And it's not a matter of ignorance on the school. It's a matter of the school never confronting the threat of the basement flesh-eating monster in the first place, so the monster wasn't factored into the list of "crazy threats that the school has faced."

You're wrong, Gnost-Dural isn't the only source. The Empire discovered the Star Forge first, Revan and Malak were merely sent to recover it in secret on the Emperor's behalf.

That's . . . a stretch? We know Revan and Malak were following the clues to the Star Forge even before they met Vitiate:

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 2 Kashhy10

And we know they continued afterwards (hence reports of seeing Revan on Dantooine after his disappearance). 

It follows that Vitiate learned of the existence of the Star Forge after peering in Revan's head and then directed him to finish his journey, rather than the Sith knowing about it all along and waiting for two random fallen Jedi to retrieve it for them. And none of this addresses the more pressing point that "there's no way to actually quantify the "threat-level" of Exar Kun versus the "threat-level" of a Force-imbued space station that can produce limitless warships."
LadyKulvax
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July 31st 2019, 8:52 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
But the ignorance of the school is irrelevant in an OOU source that references all of time since the Republic's founding and across the entire galaxy.

The fact it references all of time or spans the galaxy has no bearing to my point. And it's not a matter of ignorance on the school. It's a matter of the school never confronting the threat of the basement flesh-eating monster in the first place, so the monster wasn't factored into the list of "crazy threats that the school has faced."

You're wrong, Gnost-Dural isn't the only source. The Empire discovered the Star Forge first, Revan and Malak were merely sent to recover it in secret on the Emperor's behalf.

That's . . . a stretch? We know Revan and Malak were following the clues to the Star Forge even before they met Vitiate:

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 2 Kashhy10

And we know they continued afterwards (hence reports of seeing Revan on Dantooine after his disappearance). 

It follows that Vitiate learned of the existence of the Star Forge after peering in Revan's head and then directed him to finish his journey, rather than the Sith knowing about it all along and waiting for two random fallen Jedi to retrieve it for them. And none of this addresses the more pressing point that "there's no way to actually quantify the "threat-level" of Exar Kun versus the "threat-level" of a Force-imbued space station that can produce limitless warships."

But the issue is that you're saying it is limited due to the fact they face Kun/the Sith, but them facing him is merely a statement of what happens and not a careful limitation on what 'greatest threat' encompasses.

Well the Codex Entry says the Empire discovered it, not Revan and Malak. So clearly they predated that, regardless of explanation of which there are many. Though honestly that makes sense because we know that they also discovered a third station besides the Foundry which no one else knew about. They clearly found out about the Rakatan super stations in advanced.
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July 31st 2019, 9:15 pm
This isn't all that difficult. Either the quote applies to the time after Exar Kun or it doesn't. If it doesn't then Malak>kun. If it does then Kun becomes>Darth Sidious and Valkorion. I think we can see the ridiculousness of the latter interpretation
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