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The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 3:24 am
LadyKulvax wrote:Except Traya's giga-drain is quite literally something you can't defend against. It's a very potent technique by itself. Regardless of how powerful the wielder is.

And Malak allegedly has haxxed powers that are disproportionate to his overall power, and thus would allow him to defeat Exar Kun even if he weren't generally stronger, hence why the quote says that his powers are "far greater than" Exar Kun.

You brought up the Traya analogy by ridiculing the notion that Traya could just gigadrain everyone, but now you're saying that Traya can basically gigadrain everyone, thus contradicting yourself and rendering your own analogy pointless? Are you now saying that Traya and Malak aren't analogous cases?

You have still consistently danced around the fact that if Exar Kun could overwhelm whatever Malak's powers are, it would make no sense to refer to his powers as FAR GREATER in an article dedicated to combat stats! Not "Malak's regeneration power is far beyond Exar Kun's" - Malak's powers are far greater than Exar Kun!

Can we have a concrete answer for this?

Malak doesn't win because he's not 'far greater' than a canonically Sheev tier combatant per a good six sources.

But the source literally says that his powers are far greater? Regardless of whether those are overall powers or haxx, they're still far greater.

Are you going to try to nitpick semantical loopholes in the in-universe opinions of one-week trainees as part of your "good six sources"?

Heritage of the Sith is not an in-universe source, it is written as if in-universe, but the source itself is stated to be a 'definitive' source of information on the Sith.

That sounds like something an in-universe source would claim. As I noted, it contains inaccurate information that you would expect an in-universe source to speculate on.

It contains information that no one in-universe could know.

Like what?

More importantly, it obviously knows what it is talking about because Drew Karpyshyn wrote it.

That's not how in-universe sources work. By that logic, every in-universe source is OOU.

I said the powers i.e. knowledge/techniques gained are far greater because the Star Forge is the holy grail of Rakatan Force-powered tech.

Then why do you think Exar Kun would win? Didn't you also claim that Exar Kun was far greater than the Star Forge?

You can't seem to decide on whether you want to acknowledge that the Star Forge >> Exar Kun. When confronted on this, you tried to argue that it just has more *knowledge* than Kun, but that doesn't even fit with your own interpretation which deals with its granting Malak nigh-invulnerability.

But as I made clear, every primary source on the matter prioritises Malak's ability to keep draining life-force and essentially achieve virtual immortality.

No, they don't.

- Draining power from others doesn't mean the main benefit is healing; indeed, numerous Force techniques drain power and most aren't primarily about healing
- Mentioning life energy doesn't mean it's "prioritized", not when other sources mention other benefits
- You once again ignored the fact that the very source we're discussing goes on to elaborate on the amps of the mysterious power source. You decided to ignore that, and instead focus on a single ability that had to do with damage reduction. This is like the third time you've ignored this part of the article. I wonder why...

Let's repeat it here:

Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

Where did you get the idea that it was primarily about healing?

The problem is that you are saying we should automatically assume that 'powers' means Malak's Force power.

And you automatically assume that "threat" refers to "power level relative to a hidden superweapon", funny how that works eh?

Whether it refers to overall Force power or a set of Force powers, and whether it belongs to Malak or is just coming from elsewhere, it's stated to be far greater than Exar Kun.

The question is simple, does a cybernetic life-support system amplify your Force powers? Obviously, not. Does hidden armor? Again obviously, not. So how does your interpretation make sense? Mine does.

But the same article then explicitly states that Malak gets extra Force powers because of that same source? So even if you think armor is a stupid explanation, that doesn't negate the fact that the same article doesn't hide that the source affects Force power. It doesn't pretend that those (deliberately inaccurate) explanations were good ones anyway.

BTW, you can't necessarily say that armor can't amplify Force powers; objects can be Force imbued, and you have examples like the orbalisks, etc.

Furthermore, why would it repeat itself in the same paragraph when it's already referred to his own power separately literally a sentence prior and described it as 'devastating'?

You're just begging for straws now. It's OK for someone to write "Tom Brady is an amazing quarterback. His skills at the position are legendary", and people recognize that a little bit of redundancy is OK. Furthermore, it's not "repeating" itself because it's adding new information - that it's more power than Exar Kun, and that it may have a mysterious source.

Why bother listing Freedon Nadd when Exar Kun is much more powerful, rendering Nadd redundant? 

The straws have run out and you're grasping at hay now, I see. Someone can write "Jeff Bezos is much richer than Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg" without getting accused of redundancy.

The references are to the Star Forge, and the main plot-twist to the final boss of the Star Forge, per both Malak and the Databank, is Malak's newly-revealed ability to drain Jedi and gain their life force to replace what he loses in battle. Then the references to the possible explanations of life-support, hidden armor and physical enhancement via Sith alchemy as being responsible culprits, throughout the article, is clearly a reference designed not to spoil the end plot twist. But to still reflect and implement this within the character's adaptation to this game.

Bolded the part where you pretend that draining energy necessarily means the primary benefit is healing.

Malak doesn't still win, because it essentially delays the inevitable.

Then why is it mentioned as "far greater than" Exar Kun?

No, 'threat' does not equate to 'who would win in a fight. It is a blanket statement about being the biggest enemy the galaxy has faced in 20,000 years. But perhaps more importantly, the quote is practically a reworded restatement of this classic quote from the same source:


Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

Beyond your incredulous appeals to a no-limits fallacy, as far as I can see, the quote is merely designed to say that as of 2008 the guy is still a big deal just as he was when the comics first came out. Kun's a big victim of power creep, but in 2008 they twice went out of their way to establish him as the primary powerhouse of his time via this Omnibus and the TCSWE entry for him.

Amazing. You can't take "powers" to mean "Force powers" when the article literally mentions that Malak gets extra Force powers, but you are willing to do this:

- take a quote that refers to the galaxy facing a "threat"
- take "threat" to mean "power" because it might be (?) a grossly reworded version of an earlier, very different quote that mentions he's the "darkest" power, because apparently "darkest" is closer to "Force power than "powers" in reference to Force power is
- pretend that "threat" and "darkest" also account for inactive superweapons, and are apparently comparing Exar Kun's personal combative ability to a massive starship factory (as I noted, I guess he's also more powerful than the dark side itself? The heat death?)
^ btw, by that same logic, "darkest power" must be referring to Abeloth as well

This is so absurdly convoluted that it's difficult to convey how ridiculous it actually is.

Oh and the Empire wasn't only maybe aware of it at the time, they knew about all four Rakatan stations as they discovered them all in the first place:

But...what matters isn't whether Vitiate is aware of it, because Vitiate isn't the one "facing" the threat?

Oh and given all indications in terms of feats, standings, accolades and scalings, there's a strong argument to be made for Kun > Vitiate at this time anyway. Vitiate doesn't even get a proper quote confirming that he may be > Kun until 350 years after Kun's ascension and imprisonment.

I could go on about all the reasons why Kun > Vitiate is very plausible, but I'd prefer to save time.

Do you buy the quote that says Palpatine was "the most powerful force of evil the galaxy has ever known?" Something tells me you don't, because yay double standards.

You're dancing around the issue. You have yet to give a coherent answer to why:


  1. If Exar Kun could overcome the Star Forge's haxx, that haxx would be labeled "far greater than" Exar Kun.
  2. The article gives Malak additional Force abilities because of the Star Forge amp.
  3. You think "powers" in the context of Force abilities can't refer to Force power, but "threat" and "darkest power" must be referring to Force power despite being significantly vaguer.


Maybe you should wait until you are at a computer so that you don't accidentally drop more points because you can't quote.
AncientPower
AncientPower
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 9:05 am
My entire point with the Traya notion is that having a far more potent power to use in combat does not mean you're actually more powerful. In terms of Malak, his haxx is that he can sustain himself in combat far longer than he could do normally. That absolutely doesn't mean he wins a fight with Kun, it just means Kun will be saying:

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Shit-at-dying

Nah, the good six sources are these, but given you apparently reject I, Jedi outright then I'll drop that. Kun is as 'dire and powerful' as the Emperor. Kun is a dark side nexus, worthy of listing next to the Emperor. Kueller is stated to have power that Luke hadn't sensed in a living being since Palpatine, but Leia states that Kueller's Force capability was stronger than anyone she'd encountered since before Exar Kun, with Kun as an exception. Tom Veitch, author of Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi, confirms Kun's relativity to the Emperor:


Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

Specters of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

New Rebellion wrote:[size=32]The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain.[/size]


[size=32]****[/size]


She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

Tom Veitch wrote:Yes, Exar Kun was as powerful as Palpatine

Heritage of the Sith cannot be an in-universe source because it encompasses literally everything to do with the Sith up until ROTJ. Including subjects that aren't historically known in-universe. It's only outdated on the Darth title, not incorrect. Nor is the Darth title the point here. The point is that much of Darth Revan's power came from the Star Forge. Thus Malak can't be referring to the amp when he claims Revan was ignorant of the SF's power. He literally tells Revan what he was ignorant of, that the Star Forge can taint Jedi essences, not letting them become one with the Force. Instead he can feed on it. That is what Malak is saying Revan was ignorant of.

It really isn't that hard, the Star Forge is a dark side superweapon that is naturally the center of Rakatan Force knowledge the Sith and the Jedi have never replicated. Thus Malak obviously obtains powers no one else would have. There's no conflict in my statements. This is my point from the beginning.

You keep claiming I'm ignoring the 'Enhanced Force Powers' section despite the fact I'm not at all. I never doubted or ignored this. I never doubted the Star Forge amp. My point is that the original quote is not referring to this.

I'm not saying that 'threat' = 'power relative to a superweapon'. I'm saying that the statement is all-encompassing, and that the Star Forge is not excluded from it.

My points of redundancy aren't me saying they are individual detractors to the quote, only that the wording in and of itself indicates my interpretation is the more correct one.

You're conflating my point and making it seem more outlandish than it is. Stop lowering the quality of your argument for cheap shots. I see the 'threat to the galaxy' quote as more indicative of the idea that the 'darkest power in the galaxy' quote(which is confirmed to refer to strength in the Force in literally the very next sentence) is not somehow out-of-date as of 2008 just because it was published a decade prior. That quote, coupled with his TCSWE quote in the very same year tells me he's still the boss powerhouse of his era.

I take the 'threat to the galaxy' quote as all-encompassing, not specifically referring to one thing. My only argument being that a dark side nexus-powered station that is still a dark side nexus at the time, is not excluded from this quote.

How is Vitiate not facing the threat when he sends Revan and Malak to make sure no one can use it against him? He clearly knows of it and the three others, and wants to make sure they're not used against him. Which is exactly what Revan does with two of them.

I take the Sidious quotes with varying value depending on which one.

I'm not saying that it can't refer to that, I'm saying it more likely doesn't. Based on the following logic. A life support system is stated to be a possible, but too simple, an explanation for the 'powers' being referenced. A life support performs what function exactly?


Oxford wrote:the use of specialized equipment to maintain a person's essential physical functions when they are very ill or in an environment such as space or under water.

The above is not a logical boon to one's Force power. Because it isn't. The reference is to the Star Forge. What is the Star Forge's primary function as it pertains to Malak?


Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.


The only context provided for these 'powers' is that they could possibly be provided by life support. Life support obviously supports one's life whilst in a state that otherwise would result in their death. It is not a source of power that can provide Malak enough power so as to be 'far greater' in Force power than Exar Kun. The actual source of these powers is not provided by life support, it is provided by the Star Forge which could support Malak's life when he was severely injured, by providing him with life force to replenish himself with.

/thread
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 12:09 pm
Elm ragdolling.

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1076326320
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 12:11 pm
No kids in the adults area.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 1:22 pm
Given you have the mental maturity of a 5 year old toddler one would question your presence here if you're upset with "kids" being present. Elm ragdolling.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 1:32 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Given you have the mental maturity of a 5 year old toddler one would question your presence here if you're upset with "kids" being present. Elm ragdolling.
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1076326320
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 7:09 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Given you have the mental maturity of a 5 year old toddler one would question your presence here if you're upset with "kids" being present. Elm ragdolling.
You literally only exist to obsess over me.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 8:56 pm
My entire point with the Traya notion is that having a far more potent power to use in combat does not mean you're actually more powerful.

But that entire point was that one doesn’t have to be more powerful overall to win...?

I see that you’ve ignored the question yet again. You haven’t explained why the powers would be called “far greater than Exar Kun” if Exar Kun would overcome them anyway. Note that it does not say “far greater than Exar Kun in certain areas”, or “far greater than Exar Kun’s marching abilities” - it says “far greater than Exar Kun” AS A WHOLE.

You might also try to argue that Malak’s powers are far greater in a non-combative sense, which would be silly in the context of an article primarily dedicated to talking about combat abilities.

It is now the fourth time in a row that you have refused to answer this simple question. Is this deliberate?

Before we continue with the rest of the discussion, can you actually give an answer here?
AncientPower
AncientPower
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 26th 2019, 10:31 pm
Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or is cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Malak's arsenal of powers, that are not strictly bound to combative feats, are far greater than Exar Kun's. Is by no means a reason Malak wins over-all. Being genuinely more powerful equates to Kun being stronger in conventional means.

However, as I have already proven, Malak's far greater powers amount to having an external source of energy to replenish his life force which was what made him almost unstoppable. This does not mean Malak would win the fight.

I literally already explained this. Stop trying to pidgeon hole.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 4:29 am
@LadyKulvax You're getting a warning for calling someone else a "kid" in a condescending manner.

_________________
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Sheev_sig_3
AncientPower
AncientPower
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 6:31 am
So people troll me constantly but you target me for a warning? Kek.
HellfireUnit
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Level Six
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 6:45 am
🇪🇭
AncientPower
AncientPower
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 12:19 pm
So, I thought I'd stop here on the whole Malak deal, assuming of course that Ellimist didn't go full-essay mode. Though I do believe I have the debate on lock down.

I could stop, I'm not gonna.

So let's just establish somethin':

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1527lp10
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Xo6bzf10
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Screen25
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 S2efyz10
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Mv2qiy10
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Dfchtx10

The Emperor was super-amped by Byss, yet Byss was one of the planets noted to have a naturally strong Force signature tens of thousands of years before he was even born, hence why it was originally a Rakatan world:

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Zs0nms10
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 O6lzfu10

Even during the construction phase under Sheev, prior to any meddling, Byss greatly amped Vader and the Emperor:

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Uy5vmb10
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Oxo1va10
Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Kandre10

Yet the Star Forge is stated to be the literal center of power for the Infinite Empire:

Ancient Rakatan Computer, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:The Star Forge is the glory of the Builders, the apex of their Infinite Empire.

The Rakatans could control and thrive on Byss, but the Star Forge was so powerful that they succumbed to its influence:

Ancient Rakatan Computer wrote:In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate.

So given that the Star Forge >> Byss. I guess we can say SF-Amped Malak > DE Sheev. Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1076326320
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator | Champion of the Light
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 12:28 pm
🇪🇭
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 1:04 pm
Sidious was already far more powerful than Malak. So yes, the Star Forge amped Malak more than Byss amped Sidious, but that in no way means SF Malak>DE Sidious.

Just stop wasting everyone's time.
The Ellimist
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 6:31 pm
LadyKulvax wrote:Malak's arsenal of powers, that are not strictly bound to combative feats, are far greater than Exar Kun's. Is by no means a reason Malak wins over-all. Being genuinely more powerful equates to Kun being stronger in conventional means.

As I have noted, the article clearly focuses on combat, so it giving Malak powers "far greater than" Exar Kun certainly gives one reason to think he has greater combat applicable powers, especially since both the bonuses given in the article and your **own** interpretation of nigh-invulnerability are both highly combat-relevant. Are you saying Malak was boasting about his nigh-invincibility to Revan because he could avoid accidental injuries?

Furthermore, the "greater powers doesn't necessarily mean so-and-so would win in a fight" also applies to comparisons of overall raw power, and indeed may actually apply more in those cases. This scrutiny is by no means confined to Malak having greater powers than Exar Kun. If you want to argue that Exar Kun will overcome that disparity with his greater technical skill, then that's a separate argument - he likely can't overcome them with his raw Force power, or else Malak's powers wouldn't be called "far greater".

I'd like to add once again how hilarious it is that you are taking "threat" to seriously refer to personal combative ability, yet not "powers".

Let's look at your alleged Kun quotes:

If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

The irony in trying to void the SF Malak quote for vagueness while parroting a quote like this one is just too off-the-charts to be a mistake at this point.

Kyp's test wasn't about how good at combat Exar Kun was...? That's not what "powerful" means in this context. At the most, this quote falls under ones like "Jaina was as good a duelist as anyone in the order" - not nearly literal and concrete enough to be taken over the explicit quotes putting Palpatine as the most powerful Sith ever.

How are you not aware of how inconsistently you apply scrutiny to sources?

There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

"Two of the greatest" doesn't mean "the two greatest", and even if it did would not say anything about how the two compare to one another.

The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain.[/size]


She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

This has already been debunked in another thread, but even if it hadn't been, it doesn't actually mean that Kun ~ Sidious. If Luke hadn't encountered that power in a living being since Sidious, this suggests that Sidious >= Kueller, but not necessarily = Kueller. "X is the greatest since Y" doesn't mean that X has parity with Y. I suppose to be super-semantically rigorous Luke could've said "since the Emperor, who was even more powerful", but in reality nobody needs to say that Y was actually greater.

Yes, Exar Kun was as powerful as Palpatine

Trying to pass off someone's facebook messages as authoritative or comparable to multiple reviewed and published sources for Sidious is ridiculous and frankly an argument in bad faith.

None of these sources match the numerous explicit statements putting Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord in history as early as TPM, and certainly by RotS. I can guarantee that if the sources were reversed, you would still be backing Exar Kun.

You keep claiming I'm ignoring the 'Enhanced Force Powers' section despite the fact I'm not at all. I never doubted or ignored this. I never doubted the Star Forge amp. My point is that the original quote is not referring to this.

Bullshit. The first part of the article talks about Malak in non-stat, narrative terms. The second part of the article explains the impact of the mysterious power source on game stats. You're trying to say that the article splits the effects between specific healing powers, which are far greater than Exar Kun, and broader powers, which you think are not. But if that were the case, why is the former not emphasized at all in the game stats? There is a single ability that is kind of related to healing, but then all of the rest are much broader and attributed to the same source.

Your in-article justification for this convoluted nonsense is that the article wonders whether this is because of cybernetic life support. As I've noted, it's plausible to wonder whether cybernetics can also enhance one's apparent powers. It can obviously boost you physically, and it can even literally enhance your Force powers (e.g. orbalisk armor, or sith-sorcery enhancements). We see plenty of examples of Sith enhancing their powers with implants; the fact that it happens to be on a life support system doesn't mean that it has to only grant Malak life support related benefits! Furthermore, the article even notes that this may be an inaccurate explanation! You try to say that it's more plausible that life support would grant him healing powers, which might have been somewhat possible if it weren't for the fact that the stat-section doesn't emphasize that at all, and they decide to use the broad phrase "powers" instead of "healing powers".

It would be really awkward and clunky to say "powers", secretly mean "healing powers" (even though they weren't trying to hide the effects at all), and then compare that to two specific characters who weren't known for their healing powers. The most obvious and straightforward explanation is that it's referring to a broad set of "powers". Otherwise it would be like asking whether Gordon Ramsay got [cooking] abilities "far greater than even Brock Lesnar or JRR Tolkien".

You then try to say that the other sources say that the Star Forge's main asset is restoring Malak's life energy. That's not true at all. Some sources mention that it gives him life energy, but others also mention that he is growing more powerful, and at least one mentions that he feeding on its power, which you think means that he's just being healed (??), even though feeding on a power source typically makes you more powerful overall.

But again, all of this is kind of meaningless anyway because the powers are "far greater than Exar Kun", whatever they are.

I'm not saying that 'threat' = 'power relative to a superweapon'. I'm saying that the statement is all-encompassing, and that the Star Forge is not excluded from it.

Why did you decide to avoid defending the link between "threat" and "individual combat ability"?

Your Byss post is kind of incoherent; even if everything you said were true, it wouldn't actually say anything about Sidious relative to Exar Kun. Sidious being amped by Byss doesn't mean that he's weaker than Byss; in fact, we know that Sidious is more powerful of a nexus than Byss even after Byss had been amped by decades of his machinations. Furthermore, Malak likely didn't harness 100% of the Star Forge's power given that his power was stated to have still been growing.

By that same logic BTW, I could note that Exar Kun got amped by his amulet, and unless if you think his amulet > the Star Forge, I guess that means he's weaker than SF Malak too, amirite?
AncientPower
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 7:13 pm
PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Sidious was already far more powerful than Malak. So yes, the Star Forge amped Malak more than Byss amped Sidious, but that in no way means SF Malak>DE Sidious.

Just stop wasting everyone's time.

Base Malak? Sure. SF!Malak is supposedly amped to be 'far greater' than his base self due to the Star Forge, which dwarfs the power of Byss. The natural power of which was already amping Sheev and Vader massively, prior to transforming Byss.
AncientPower
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 27th 2019, 8:32 pm
The Ellimist wrote:
LadyKulvax wrote:Malak's arsenal of powers, that are not strictly bound to combative feats, are far greater than Exar Kun's. Is by no means a reason Malak wins over-all. Being genuinely more powerful equates to Kun being stronger in conventional means.

As I have noted, the article clearly focuses on combat, so it giving Malak powers "far greater than" Exar Kun certainly gives one reason to think he has greater combat applicable powers, especially since both the bonuses given in the article and your **own** interpretation of nigh-invulnerability are both highly combat-relevant. Are you saying Malak was boasting about his nigh-invincibility to Revan because he could avoid accidental injuries?

The article? In a general sense, yes. Though unless you think him being intimidating is somehow a combative power, then I doubt his description is solely referring to his combat abilities.

Then again, I realise now that the only relevant portion is the description. What's sprinkled throughout the article is basically just game mechanic implementation.

The Ellimist wrote:Furthermore, the "greater powers doesn't necessarily mean so-and-so would win in a fight" also applies to comparisons of overall raw power, and indeed may actually apply more in those cases. This scrutiny is by no means confined to Malak having greater powers than Exar Kun. If you want to argue that Exar Kun will overcome that disparity with his greater technical skill, then that's a separate argument - he likely can't overcome them with his raw Force power, or else Malak's powers wouldn't be called "far greater".

Except we literally know what the 'powers' reference can possibly refer to, and no, a life support system which literally compensates for your failing health isn't giving him 'far greater' Force power than Exar Kun.

The Ellimist wrote:I'd like to add once again how hilarious it is that you are taking "threat" to seriously refer to personal combative ability, yet not "powers".

It's not what I've said, though. At all. It isn't referring to combative ability, it is referring to the danger Kun poses to the galaxy and how he is moreso than anything else. Your argument is that the Star Forge doesn't count despite being literally stated to be a galactic threat.

The Ellimist wrote:Let's look at your alleged Kun quotes:

If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

The irony in trying to void the SF Malak quote for vagueness while parroting a quote like this one is just too off-the-charts to be a mistake at this point.

I'm not voiding it, I'm applying basic analytical ability and proving why you're wrong.

The Ellimist wrote:Kyp's test wasn't about how good at combat Exar Kun was...? That's not what "powerful" means in this context. At the most, this quote falls under ones like "Jaina was as good a duelist as anyone in the order" - not nearly literal and concrete enough to be taken over the explicit quotes putting Palpatine as the most powerful Sith ever.

No, it's a blanket statement about the forces Kyp has faced in comparison to Luke's.

The Ellimist wrote:How are you not aware of how inconsistently you apply scrutiny to sources?

It's almost as if I advocate for taking quotes on an individual basis rather than applying a general blanket statement over an inconsistent mythos.

The Ellimist wrote:
There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

"Two of the greatest" doesn't mean "the two greatest", and even if it did would not say anything about how the two compare to one another.

That Luke refers to them as his two greatest triumphs repeatedly throughout the series, then I'm inclined to think otherwise:

Children of the Jedi wrote:The mightiest Jedi in the universe, he reflected bitterly--that he knew of, anyway - come the destroyer of the Sun Crusher, the slayer of evil, who'd defeated the recloned Emperor and the Sith Lord Exar Kun. . .

Not that it's the point, it's saying they are two of the greatest dark side focal points he has ever faced. A considerably more important statement.

The Ellimist wrote:
The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain.

She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

This has already been debunked in another thread,

No, they tried debunking it. They're not right though.

The Ellimist wrote:but even if it hadn't been, it doesn't actually mean that Kun ~ Sidious. If Luke hadn't encountered that power in a living being since Sidious, this suggests that Sidious >= Kueller, but not necessarily = Kueller. "X is the greatest since Y" doesn't mean that X has parity with Y. I suppose to be super-semantically rigorous Luke could've said "since the Emperor, who was even more powerful", but in reality nobody needs to say that Y was actually greater.

I said Exar Kun is on the tier of Sheev, not literally as powerful.

The Ellimist wrote:
Yes, Exar Kun was as powerful as Palpatine

Trying to pass off someone's facebook messages as authoritative or comparable to multiple reviewed and published sources for Sidious is ridiculous and frankly an argument in bad faith.

I'm not trying to pass off anything, I'm taking emails from an author with direct authority on the source material and asking his opinion.

The Ellimist wrote:None of these sources match the numerous explicit statements putting Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord in history as early as TPM, and certainly by RotS. I can guarantee that if the sources were reversed, you would still be backing Exar Kun.

You mean the numerous sources that aren't a Legends OOU, all-encompassing quote? Funny how you instantaneously take all of these to be infallible.

The Ellimist wrote:
You keep claiming I'm ignoring the 'Enhanced Force Powers' section despite the fact I'm not at all. I never doubted or ignored this. I never doubted the Star Forge amp. My point is that the original quote is not referring to this.

Bullshit. The first part of the article talks about Malak in non-stat, narrative terms. The second part of the article explains the impact of the mysterious power source on game stats. You're trying to say that the article splits the effects between specific healing powers, which are far greater than Exar Kun, and broader powers, which you think are not. But if that were the case, why is the former not emphasized at all in the game stats? There is a single ability that is kind of related to healing, but then all of the rest are much broader and attributed to the same source.

I am not saying the amp isn't included, I am saying that the primary quote from his description is clearly contextually relevant.

The Ellimist wrote:Your in-article justification for this convoluted nonsense is that the article wonders whether this is because of cybernetic life support. As I've noted, it's plausible to wonder whether cybernetics can also enhance one's apparent powers. It can obviously boost you physically, and it can even literally enhance your Force powers (e.g. orbalisk armor, or sith-sorcery enhancements). We see plenty of examples of Sith enhancing their powers with implants; the fact that it happens to be on a life support system doesn't mean that it has to only grant Malak life support related benefits! Furthermore, the article even notes that this may be an inaccurate explanation! You try to say that it's more plausible that life support would grant him healing powers, which might have been somewhat possible if it weren't for the fact that the stat-section doesn't emphasize that at all, and they decide to use the broad phrase "powers" instead of "healing powers".

Except that it isn't implicating a hidden ability from the life support, it is saying that a form of life support itself is a plausible, yet possibly too simple, explanation for the far greater powers he is being given. Fortunately, we're all aware of what the actual source is, and it just so happens to also provide him life support. Isn't that an amazing coincidence. Almost as if, it's literally stated by the most canonical source here and is reflected by the biggest plot-twist in the story.

The Ellimist wrote:It would be really awkward and clunky to say "powers", secretly mean "healing powers" (even though they weren't trying to hide the effects at all), and then compare that to two specific characters who weren't known for their healing powers. The most obvious and straightforward explanation is that it's referring to a broad set of "powers". Otherwise it would be like asking whether Gordon Ramsay got [cooking] abilities "far greater than even Brock Lesnar or JRR Tolkien".

Given that Nadd's definitive trait was living for over a century before thriving as a spirit, and that Kun's was using sorcery to sustain himself in spiritual form and survive a nigh genocidal decimation of his planet for four thousand years. You've actually just gone and accidentally supported my point. They're not only the perfect comparisons as of 2003, they're also his closest historical competitors.

The Ellimist wrote:You then try to say that the other sources say that the Star Forge's main asset is restoring Malak's life energy. That's not true at all. Some sources mention that it gives him life energy, but others also mention that he is growing more powerful, and at least one mentions that he feeding on its power, which you think means that he's just being healed (??), even though feeding on a power source typically makes you more powerful overall.

That the most canonical source here refers directly to his ability to restore his life force via the Star Forge as the reason he was almost unstoppable, not the boost to his power growth. Is pretty damn indicative to me. Not that I'm even dismissing the boost to his power, just pointing out that replenishing his life force is literally stated to be the primary reason he was almost unstoppable. Not his power growth.

The Ellimist wrote:But again, all of this is kind of meaningless anyway because the powers are "far greater than Exar Kun", whatever they are.

Thankfully, we know exactly what they are because the context provided tells us.

The Ellimist wrote:
I'm not saying that 'threat' = 'power relative to a superweapon'. I'm saying that the statement is all-encompassing, and that the Star Forge is not excluded from it.

Why did you decide to avoid defending the link between "threat" and "individual combat ability"?

I never claimed it in the first place.

The Ellimist wrote:Your Byss post is kind of incoherent; even if everything you said were true, it wouldn't actually say anything about Sidious relative to Exar Kun. Sidious being amped by Byss doesn't mean that he's weaker than Byss; in fact, we know that Sidious is more powerful of a nexus than Byss even after Byss had been amped by decades of his machinations. Furthermore, Malak likely didn't harness 100% of the Star Forge's power given that his power was stated to have still been growing.

That his powers are stated to be boosted 'exponentionally' prior to his machinations nullifies that he later becomes a dark side nexus greater than Byss. Malak's growth hasn't stopped because the Star Forge is at 300% capacity. (Gotta love how you're accidentally supporting the Kun focal point quote here, and I could drive the point home further, but I'll leave that for next time.)

The Ellimist wrote:By that same logic BTW, I could note that Exar Kun got amped by his amulet, and unless if you think his amulet > the Star Forge, I guess that means he's weaker than SF Malak too, amirite?

The amulet is stated to focus the rage from his own heart into magical Force blasts. So no, he isn't amped. But given Sidious was collecting these amulets, and says himself that he's 'restless' in the knowledge that more are out there. Then I really wouldn't try digging your own grave here.
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August 28th 2019, 2:03 am
LadyKulvax wrote:The article? In a general sense, yes. Though unless you think him being intimidating is somehow a combative power, then I doubt his description is solely referring to his combat abilities.

Something that's obviously describing his appearance is very different from the phrase "powers" used in comparison to two Sith Lords that's then repeated in the context of giving him additional Force feats and abilities. Even if we buy your dubious assertion that this is referring to healing/durability powers, the "far greater than Exar Kun" is no less likely to be relevant to a combative comparison than a generic "more powerful than" statement would be.

So we're left with the conclusion that the powers Malak gets are far greater than Exar Kun.

Then again, I realise now that the only relevant portion is the description. What's sprinkled throughout the article is basically just game mechanic implementation.

The game mechanic implementation provides clear insight into the intended meaning behind "powers", unless if there's an in-game reason why they would refuse to implement the power source as primarily healing-based if that's what they wanted, or if two authors were writing the same article and disagreed or something.

It's not what I've said, though. At all. It isn't referring to combative ability, it is referring to the danger Kun poses to the galaxy and how he is moreso than anything else. Your argument is that the Star Forge doesn't count despite being literally stated to be a galactic threat.

...so if it's not referring to combative ability (or even Force power), why do you keep using it as evidence for Kun?

No, it's a blanket statement about the forces Kyp has faced in comparison to Luke's.

So you don't think "powers far greater than" would be a comparison in a combative context, but "forces as powerful and dire" in the context of trials that were about Kyp's emotional maturity must refer to Exar Kun's combative power? Those forces aren't even necessarily referring to Exar Kun literally; they could easily be about the mental and emotional trials he went through.

Anyway, a vague comparison such as that is more in the tier of "Jaina was as powerful as any in the Order" than "so-and-so is the most powerful of all time" or, even more explicitly, "X is more powerful than Y", especially not when Luke is musing in his head about Kyp Durron's trials and not carefully ranking the power of Exar Kun to the power of Sidious. You really seem to be latching onto incredibly vague accolades to override the extremely explicit ones aligned against Kun.

That Luke refers to them as his two greatest triumphs  repeatedly throughout the series, then I'm inclined to think otherwise:

Children of the Jedi wrote:The mightiest Jedi in the universe, he reflected bitterly--that he knew of, anyway - come the destroyer of the Sun Crusher, the slayer of evil, who'd defeated the recloned Emperor and the Sith Lord Exar Kun. . .

... Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1935072468  So because he referenced those two events while thinking about how to describe himself off the top of his head, they must not only be his absolute two greatest triumphs, but also a direct reference to how powerful in combat the two were, even though Luke didn't even beat Exar Kun by fighting him directly? Seriously?

You think the SF Malak quote is too ambiguous, but him mentioning those two victories in an inner monologue means that they must be his two greatest triumphs and that this also implies they are absolutely the two most personally powerful characters?

How could you possibly type these double standards with a straight face?

Not that it's the point, it's saying they are two of the greatest dark side focal points he has ever faced. A considerably more important statement.

It's almost like you ignored the part where I noted that "two of the greatest" doesn't mean "the two greatest". Why do you keep ignoring critical points?

Oh, and you completely ignored the part where I note that this doesn't say anything about how Palpatine and Kun compare to each other. Why do you keep ignoring critical points?

I said Exar Kun is on the tier of Sheev, not literally as powerful.

And the quotes don't even say that Exar Kun is on the same tier as Sidious. They just say (if they were taken as credible) that Exar Kun is more powerful than anyone he encountered after Palpatine. He didn't encounter anyone close to Palpatine in power between those times anyway.

The Ellimist wrote:I'm not trying to pass off anything, I'm taking emails from an author with direct authority on the source material and asking his opinion.

He doesn't have "direct authority". His published material has direct authority.  

You mean the numerous sources that aren't a Legends OOU, all-encompassing quote? Funny how you instantaneously take all of these to be infallible.

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...  Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1935072468

You have to be trolling me at this point. You literally just gave a giant string of in-universe musings and monologues that not only relied on character opinions, but also of the semantic precision of their musings (e.g. if Luke thinks of two accomplishments, they must be his two greatest), and now you're complaining that the Palpatine quotes aren't out of universe? Are you serious?

(BTW, several of them are indeed out-of-universe, as I'm sure you know. If Exar Kun had even one of them, you'd hang a picture of it on your wall.)

I am not saying the amp isn't included, I am saying that the primary quote from his description is clearly contextually relevant.

It's almost as if you didn't actually respond to what you were quoting. Here it is again:

Bullshit. The first part of the article talks about Malak in non-stat, narrative terms. The second part of the article explains the impact of the mysterious power source on game stats. You're trying to say that the article splits the effects between specific healing powers, which are far greater than Exar Kun, and broader powers, which you think are not. But if that were the case, why is the former not emphasized at all in the game stats? There is a single ability that is kind of related to healing, but then all of the rest are much broader and attributed to the same source.

Given that Nadd's definitive trait was living for over a century before thriving as a spirit, and that Kun's was using sorcery to sustain himself in spiritual form and survive a nigh genocidal decimation of his planet for four thousand years. You've actually just gone and accidentally supported my point. They're not only the perfect comparisons as of 2003, they're also his closest historical competitors.

Yeah, that's totally what the article meant - life expectancy.  And clearly, it deliberately chose those two Sith because they were sith spirits afterwards, and not because they were really powerful. Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1935072468

If the article meant to say that, this would be the weirdest possible way to do it. Here's what it could've said:

"Did it grant him healing powers far greater than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd's?"

or

"Did it grant him the power to defy death to an even greater degree than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd?"

but nope, it generically mentions "powers" and then later attributes to the same source a bunch of general Force amps. And no, the fact that it doesn't bother to mention the offhanded speculation about the life support again in that section doesn't mean it's referring to a different source. It alludes to the Star Forge again; it doesn't need to repeat a random speculative, fake alternative every time it mentions the Star Forge amp for it to be the Star Forge amp. The extra Force skills were the central effect of the Star Forge amp in the article.

Except that it isn't implicating a hidden ability from the life support, it is saying that a form of life support itself is a plausible, yet possibly too simple, explanation for the far greater powers he is being given. Fortunately, we're all aware of what the actual source is, and it just so happens to also provide him life support. Isn't that an amazing coincidence. Almost as if, it's literally stated by the most canonical source here and is reflected by the biggest plot-twist in the story.

...no.

Vader's suit is itself a life support system. Grievous's entire body is itself a life support system. Both amped them in substantial ways beyond life support (Vader's too, even if offset by the losses of the injuries), and neither of those benefits were "hidden". If a sources says "Grievous's life support gave him tremendous abilities", the word "abilities" doesn't have to be confined to his longevity. The "cybernetic enhancement", which is also what it's called in the article, happens to be called "life support", but that doesn't mean its amps are somehow a separate device from the system.

What would you have the article say? "Did a side effect of the life support system having cybernetic parts that granted advantages beyond life support give him powers far greater than Exar Kun"?

That the most canonical source here refers directly to his ability to restore his life force via the Star Forge as the reason he was almost unstoppable, not the boost to his power growth. Is pretty damn indicative to me. Not that I'm even dismissing the boost to his power, just pointing out that replenishing his life force is literally stated to be the primary reason he was almost unstoppable. Not his power growth.

Where is it "literally stated" to be the "primary" reason?

That his powers are stated to be boosted 'exponentionally' prior to his machinations nullifies that he later becomes a dark side nexus greater than Byss.

...how? Sidious doesn't have to be weaker than Byss for it to greatly boost his power.

Malak's growth hasn't stopped because the Star Forge is at 300% capacity. (Gotta love how you're accidentally supporting the Kun focal point quote here, and I could drive the point home further, but I'll leave that for next time.)

...

but then by that logic, even if you could show that Exar Kun > the Star Forge, it wouldn't prove Exar Kun > SF Malak? Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1935072468

The amulet is stated to focus the rage from his own heart into magical Force blasts. So no, he isn't amped. But given Sidious was collecting these amulets, and says himself that he's 'restless' in the knowledge that more are out there. Then I really wouldn't try digging your own grave here.

Sith amulet are stated in multiple sources to boost power. But you're not addressing the underlying point, which is that an amp source doesn't have to be as powerful as the wielder for the wielder to get boosted substantially.
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Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 28th 2019, 3:37 am
The Ellimist wrote:
LadyKulvax wrote:The article? In a general sense, yes. Though unless you think him being intimidating is somehow a combative power, then I doubt his description is solely referring to his combat abilities.

Something that's obviously describing his appearance is very different from the phrase "powers" used in comparison to two Sith Lords that's then repeated in the context of giving him additional Force feats and abilities. Even if we buy your dubious assertion that this is referring to healing/durability powers, the "far greater than Exar Kun" is no less likely to be relevant to a combative comparison than a generic "more powerful than" statement would be.

My point being, you can't shout about the article being about the combatively applicable powers of Malak to apply a restriction on a quote that comes from the character description section of the article.

The Ellimist wrote:So we're left with the conclusion that the powers Malak gets are far greater than Exar Kun.

No we're left with the statement that Malak is being provided with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, with the lone context that some form of life support hidden by his mask could've provided them.

After all this debating you have still failed to prove why it could only mean personal Force power and can't be a reference to something other than that.

The Ellimist wrote:
Then again, I realise now that the only relevant portion is the description. What's sprinkled throughout the article is basically just game mechanic implementation.

The game mechanic implementation provides clear insight into the intended meaning behind "powers", unless if there's an in-game reason why they would refuse to implement the power source as primarily healing-based if that's what they wanted, or if two authors were writing the same article and disagreed or something.

Alright, I concede. But not for your benefit. You probably shouldn't have pushed the issue here. There are a total of two references to the mysterious power source in the game part of the article. Here's why neither of them are supporting your case.

Darth Malak wrote:Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5 -- Darth Malak ignores the first five points of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

This quote is almost an exact repeat of the one in the description. It is asking from what source Malak could take damage.

Darth Malak wrote:Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

This one, which I've politely been waiting for you to fully comprehend and drop, for your own benefit, is far worse for your argument.

It says:

'He gained three additional Force feats' the in-game term for Force powers/techniques which supports the interpretation that the 'powers' in the description is a plural statement, in reference to Force techniques:

Darth Malak wrote:Force Feats: Alter, Burst of Speed, Control, Drain Force*, Force Mind, Force Whirlwind, Hatred*, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Malevolent, Master Defense, Mettle, Rage*, Sense, Sith Sorcery*, Sith Sword Defense*.

The '24 bonus skills points exclusively for dark side skills' is in reference to the mastery of those techniques.

You're literally proving me right by supporting these quotes.

The Ellimist wrote:
It's not what I've said, though. At all. It isn't referring to combative ability, it is referring to the danger Kun poses to the galaxy and how he is moreso than anything else. Your argument is that the Star Forge doesn't count despite being literally stated to be a galactic threat.

...so if it's not referring to combative ability (or even Force power), why do you keep using it as evidence for Kun?

Because Kun is the biggest threat due to his power in the Force.

The Ellimist wrote:
No, it's a blanket statement about the forces Kyp has faced in comparison to Luke's.

So you don't think "powers far greater than" would be a comparison in a combative context, but "forces as powerful and dire" in the context of trials that were about Kyp's emotional maturity must refer to Exar Kun's combative power? Those forces aren't even necessarily referring to Exar Kun literally; they could easily be about the mental and emotional trials he went through.

Nope, the context of the quote and the paragraph is about whether he's overcome Exar Kun's possession and if he can accomplish facing a new force without slipping back.

The Ellimist wrote:Anyway, a vague comparison such as that is more in the tier of "Jaina was as powerful as any in the Order" than "so-and-so is the most powerful of all time" or, even more explicitly, "X is more powerful than Y", especially not when Luke is musing in his head about Kyp Durron's trials and not carefully ranking the power of Exar Kun to the power of Sidious. You really seem to be latching onto incredibly vague accolades to override the extremely explicit ones aligned against Kun.

Nah, I'm not saying they're explicit, I'm saying that he consistently percieves them as the go-to big bads he's faced and they literally appear to him as a warning when he contemplates using his power to shed a Star Destroyer of its hull.

The Ellimist wrote:
That Luke refers to them as his two greatest triumphs  repeatedly throughout the series, then I'm inclined to think otherwise:

Children of the Jedi wrote:The mightiest Jedi in the universe, he reflected bitterly--that he knew of, anyway - come the destroyer of the Sun Crusher, the slayer of evil, who'd defeated the recloned Emperor and the Sith Lord Exar Kun. . .

... Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1935072468  So because he referenced those two events while thinking about how to describe himself off the top of his head, they must not only be his absolute two greatest triumphs, but also a direct reference to how powerful in combat the two were, even though Luke didn't even beat Exar Kun by fighting him directly? Seriously?

I'm saying they are his two biggest enemies, but only as a secondary effect. Oh, and Luke literally joins his spiritual power with Vodo's spirit and the trainees so as to envelop Kun. So he definitely did defeat Kun directly.

The Ellimist wrote:You think the SF Malak quote is too ambiguous, but him mentioning those two victories in an inner monologue means that they must be his two greatest triumphs and that this also implies they are absolutely the two most personally powerful characters?

How could you possibly type these double standards with a straight face?

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying that Luke literally percieves them in a moment when he considers abusing his own powers as a warning of basically what he'd become if he did.

The Ellimist wrote:
Not that it's the point, it's saying they are two of the greatest dark side focal points he has ever faced. A considerably more important statement.

It's almost like you ignored the part where I noted that "two of the greatest" doesn't mean "the two greatest". Why do you keep ignoring critical points?

I'm not ignoring it, I know full well it isn't the same thing. I'm saying that they are literally being noted as a pair of dark side nexuses, and two of the greatest he's ever faced. Given that Luke's realisation that Sheev was a living dark side nexus made him literally give up hope of ever beating him in DE, you can probably see why it's a big deal for me.

The Ellimist wrote:Oh, and you completely ignored the part where I note that this doesn't say anything about how Palpatine and Kun compare to each other. Why do you keep ignoring critical points?

I'm not interpreting it as a direct comparison, I'm saying that this quote aids in the depiction of Kun and Sheev as the NR era's biggest bads.

The Ellimist wrote:
I said Exar Kun is on the tier of Sheev, not literally as powerful.

And the quotes don't even say that Exar Kun is on the same tier as Sidious. They just say (if they were taken as credible) that Exar Kun is more powerful than anyone he encountered after Palpatine. He didn't encounter anyone close to Palpatine in power between those times anyway.

The actual scaling and feats Kun's spirit has at this time, paints a very consistent picture suggesting he is alongside the accolades provided.

The Ellimist wrote:
The Ellimist wrote:I'm not trying to pass off anything, I'm taking emails from an author with direct authority on the source material and asking his opinion.

He doesn't have "direct authority". His published material has direct authority.

He has authority over that material, given he is the one who wrote it all. His opinion has weight, not absolute or infallible, but valuable nonetheless.

The Ellimist wrote:
You mean the numerous sources that aren't a Legends OOU, all-encompassing quote? Funny how you instantaneously take all of these to be infallible.

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...  Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1935072468

You have to be trolling me at this point. You literally just gave a giant string of in-universe musings and monologues that not only relied on character opinions, but also of the semantic precision of their musings (e.g. if Luke thinks of two accomplishments, they must be his two greatest), and now you're complaining that the Palpatine quotes aren't out of universe? Are you serious?

(BTW, several of them are indeed out-of-universe, as I'm sure you know. If Exar Kun had even one of them, you'd hang a picture of it on your wall.)

Nah, establishing Kun as a Sheev tier threat and establishing Sheev as the all-time G.O.A.T are entirely different matters with very different Pandora's boxes to open. Most powerful quotes by themselves require intense investigation. But worst of all, given that Leland Chee doesn't consider them as subjective facts(which was more what I was referring to when I made that jab) that must be abided by, then I see no reason that they apply as some kind of definitive, insurmountable wall of Sheev.

The Ellimist wrote:
I am not saying the amp isn't included, I am saying that the primary quote from his description is clearly contextually relevant.

It's almost as if you didn't actually respond to what you were quoting. Here it is again:

Bullshit. The first part of the article talks about Malak in non-stat, narrative terms. The second part of the article explains the impact of the mysterious power source on game stats. You're trying to say that the article splits the effects between specific healing powers, which are far greater than Exar Kun, and broader powers, which you think are not. But if that were the case, why is the former not emphasized at all in the game stats? There is a single ability that is kind of related to healing, but then all of the rest are much broader and attributed to the same source.

I knew what you were getting at, I was sparing you the trouble of finding out what it all means. I actually play the RPGs, and know what the implications are.

The Ellimist wrote:
Given that Nadd's definitive trait was living for over a century before thriving as a spirit, and that Kun's was using sorcery to sustain himself in spiritual form and survive a nigh genocidal decimation of his planet for four thousand years. You've actually just gone and accidentally supported my point. They're not only the perfect comparisons as of 2003, they're also his closest historical competitors.

Yeah, that's totally what the article meant - life expectancy.  And clearly, it deliberately chose those two Sith because they were sith spirits afterwards, and not because they were really powerful. Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1935072468

If the article meant to say that, this would be the weirdest possible way to do it. Here's what it could've said:

"Did it grant him healing powers far greater than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd's?"

or

"Did it grant him the power to defy death to an even greater degree than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd?"

but nope, it generically mentions "powers" and then later attributes to the same source a bunch of general Force amps. And no, the fact that it doesn't bother to mention the offhanded speculation about the life support again in that section doesn't mean it's referring to a different source. It alludes to the Star Forge again; it doesn't need to repeat a random speculative, fake alternative every time it mentions the Star Forge amp for it to be the Star Forge amp. The extra Force skills were the central effect of the Star Forge amp in the article.

You (re)opened up speculation about the comparisons to Nadd and Kun. I am only entertaining the possibilities, that they just so happened to both attempt immortality is just incredibly coincidental.

I would not rant on about the 'extra Force skills' if I were you.

The Ellimist wrote:
Except that it isn't implicating a hidden ability from the life support, it is saying that a form of life support itself is a plausible, yet possibly too simple, explanation for the far greater powers he is being given. Fortunately, we're all aware of what the actual source is, and it just so happens to also provide him life support. Isn't that an amazing coincidence. Almost as if, it's literally stated by the most canonical source here and is reflected by the biggest plot-twist in the story.

...no.

Vader's suit is itself a life support system. Grievous's entire body is itself a life support system. Both amped them in substantial ways beyond life support (Vader's too, even if offset by the losses of the injuries), and neither of those benefits were "hidden". If a sources says "Grievous's life support gave him tremendous abilities", the word "abilities" doesn't have to be confined to his longevity. The "cybernetic enhancement", which is also what it's called in the article, happens to be called "life support", but that doesn't mean its amps are somehow a separate device from the system.

What would you have the article say? "Did a side effect of the life support system having cybernetic parts that granted advantages beyond life support give him powers far greater than Exar Kun"?

The idea that any cybernetics could afford 'far greater' Force power when they've been constantly shown to only mitigate the damage suffered by debilitating injuries is abdolutely never going to help your case here.

The Ellimist wrote:
That the most canonical source here refers directly to his ability to restore his life force via the Star Forge as the reason he was almost unstoppable, not the boost to his power growth. Is pretty damn indicative to me. Not that I'm even dismissing the boost to his power, just pointing out that replenishing his life force is literally stated to be the primary reason he was almost unstoppable. Not his power growth.

Where is it "literally stated" to be the "primary" reason?

??? Right here:

Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

The Ellimist wrote:
That his powers are stated to be boosted 'exponentionally' prior to his machinations nullifies that he later becomes a dark side nexus greater than Byss.

...how? Sidious doesn't have to be weaker than Byss for it to greatly boost his power.

Not the point.

The Ellimist wrote:
Malak's growth hasn't stopped because the Star Forge is at 300% capacity. (Gotta love how you're accidentally supporting the Kun focal point quote here, and I could drive the point home further, but I'll leave that for next time.)

...

but then by that logic, even if you could show that Exar Kun > the Star Forge, it wouldn't prove Exar Kun > SF Malak?  Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 1935072468

The Star Forge went to 300% capacity because of all of the Sith, not just Malak. It feeds off of dark side energy to generate greater and greater negative energy for itself.

The Ellimist wrote:
The amulet is stated to focus the rage from his own heart into magical Force blasts. So no, he isn't amped. But given Sidious was collecting these amulets, and says himself that he's 'restless' in the knowledge that more are out there. Then I really wouldn't try digging your own grave here.

Sith amulet are stated in multiple sources to boost power. But you're not addressing the underlying point, which is that an amp source doesn't have to be as powerful as the wielder for the wielder to get boosted substantially.

1.Not all amulets are the same, we're literally told the function of Kun's. A general statement on the things collectively doesn't override that. Though there's an argument to be made that the amulets are channelling their inner potential, but that's mostly conjecture.

2.No it doesn't, luckily that wasn't my point. Per the popular logic surrounding Malak. Malak's source of power is much more powerful than the Byss nexus which Sheev was 'exponentially' amplified by. It's the same as the Malak-Jedi Exiles scaling but with Sheev. I think its fvcking retarded but then I'm not amongst those who sees Malak this way so literally.
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 28th 2019, 10:22 am
What? No shitty bait from DC and a random thumbs up from Arkham? I'm honestly disappointed. I thought we had something special.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 28th 2019, 2:32 pm
My talents can be put to better use finishing school essays.
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 28th 2019, 8:44 pm
Fine, we're breaking up.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Exar Kun vs Darth Malak - Page 6 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

August 29th 2019, 6:49 pm
Lol.
IG
IG
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August 29th 2019, 7:16 pm
*snorts*
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