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caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? - Page 2 Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

on November 6th 2019, 12:36 am
This is the part where I try to get back on track with what the OP was asking.

I wouldn't say that Palpatine thinking that Starkiller could equal him, or even surpass him, makes Starkiller's potential greater than Luke's, who was stated to have double Palpatine's potential. And if we are talking Lucas' statement that Palpatine was the strongest Sith ever as "word of god" then we would have to equally take his statement about Luke.

Potential is such a complex term, utterly subjective and loaded with all sorts of "what ifs". It is so much harder to judge a character's potential than it is to even try to compare who would win in a fight between two characters who have never faced each other.

But potential isn't just raw power. It is a combination of many factors, including power, capacity to learn, talent in areas other than just brute force, knowledge, wisdom (cough cough), access to information, etc.

For example, in Game of Thrones when you look at the Mountain, and then look at Oberyn Martell, would you guess that he would be able to stand up to the Mountain's brute strength? Just from looking at him? Much less beat him(until he got over confident, of course). Would you guess that Oberyn Martell's capacity to learn and talent in other areas brought him to a level beyond the Mountain's overwhelming force?

You can't just look at the "muscles" without looking at the rest. After all, "the rest" is what brought Yoda up to the level that he could stalemate Palpatine's raw power and learning even in his old age.

You also have to look at the temperaments of everyone involved. Gandalf and Sauron were "equal and coeval in their beginnings" (Unfinished Tales), yet Sauron's temperament and desire for power and knowledge drove him far, far, beyond someone that was created "equal" to him.

(And yes, I am bringing other fantasy works into a Star Wars discussion. I am just using it to illustrate my point, not to say that the "otherworldy" systems in place are directly comparable).

It becomes infinitely more complex than that when you go into a fantasy world like Star Wars, because not only does it have all those factors it also has factors of "well, you might have a lot of raw power but how well can you resonate with the Force?"

And I maintain that while Vaylin might have approached them (Anakin and GM Luke) in raw power, in other areas she didn't. And over all, I would put her max potential, even unchained, below them. Just as I put Leia well below them, because despite having been born with the same potential as her brother she herself admitted that she would have never put in the time that Luke did to his training. She, like Gandalf, was interested in other things. Which limits her potential, because potential fluctuates constantly throughout someone's life.

Potential is so much more complex than "this person was born with huge muscles". It is inherently unfair, because it means that people like Mace can never become greater than people like Yoda, not because Mace was born so much weaker but because Yoda had access to something Mace didn't: time and learning. And it is inherently unfair in Star Wars in particular, because people like Vitiate and Nihilus (and even DM Palpatine) can steal the energy of others to boost themselves far beyond anything they could have otherwise achieved.

So in some ways, those three had the greatest potential: they were willing to eat the universe, and had the ability to do so.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? - Page 2 Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

on November 6th 2019, 11:36 am
@caffeineandshiny

I wouldn't say that Palpatine thinking that Starkiller could equal him, or even surpass him, makes Starkiller's potential greater than Luke's, who was stated to have double Palpatine's potential.

I never said this... (I'm assuming this is a response to me). I used other statements to put Starkiller with Luke in potential, Palpatine's comment is only meant to provide a baseline, an absolute minimum for how powerful Galen could become.

caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? - Page 2 Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

on November 6th 2019, 1:16 pm
Immortal Emperor wrote:@caffeineandshiny

I wouldn't say that Palpatine thinking that Starkiller could equal him, or even surpass him, makes Starkiller's potential greater than Luke's, who was stated to have double Palpatine's potential.

I never said this... (I'm assuming this is a response to me). I used other statements to put Starkiller with Luke in potential, Palpatine's comment is only meant to provide a baseline, an absolute minimum for how powerful Galen could become.


It was partially in response to you, but more to contest Insider 100's assertion that he could have become the most powerful force user ever.

When we are looking at just hype I personally consider Lucas statements to be greater than other statements (unless the statement was made by the creator of the character).

But that's just me.

And my long winded tangent about what constitutes potential is part of why (while I agree that Vaylin and, to an extent, Starkiller have the same raw power or "force muscles") I place Anakin and Luke so highly. Having raw power isn't the only thing that they have, they have the potential to be above tier 10 in ALL categories that make up potential.

Starkiller and Vaylin only have above tier 10 potential in one category (maybe 2 in Starkiller's case, given the access to information he would have had in Palpatine).

Honestly I think that OP presented a good list, because even if not everyone on it has tier 11+ potential in raw power they have tier 11+ potential in several other areas. (But again I maintain that only Anakin and Luke showed tier 11+ in ALL areas, except wisdom in Anakin's case along with slightly less access to knowledge for which I would nudge him ever so slightly below Luke overall).

That's not even getting into the fact that the Skywalker family's resonance with the Force is even greater than people like Palpatine and Malgus, who were stated to have "oneness" with the darkside. (Not saying Malgus is up there in any other category, just his ability to resonate with the Force)

To my knowledge Starkiller didn't show the ability to do that either. (But please prove me wrong, I love learning new trivia!)

Heck I would maintain that Caedus had higher potential (overall) than Starkiller.
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? - Page 2 Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

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