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EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 2nd 2019, 5:03 pm
What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

This is my list

Anakin Skywalker 
Galen Marek
Jacen Solo 
Kyp Durron
Revan
Vaylin
the Outlander
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 2nd 2019, 5:05 pm
Anakin, Vailyn, and the Outlander
BreakofDawn
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 2nd 2019, 5:06 pm
Anakin would surpass him. The only one who'd come close is probably Sidious. The Outlander might come close eventually but not for a long time and only if something happens in SWTOR, e.g. the Ones are introduced in some form. Valk was pretty close regardless.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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November 2nd 2019, 7:11 pm
galen, jacen, and vaylin are the only ones. anakin is above him for sure.
BreakofDawn
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November 2nd 2019, 8:11 pm
What's with the Jacen hype all of a second? How could he match GM Luke in potential?
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 2nd 2019, 9:10 pm
they have similar power growth, i think, abeit luke's is surely higher.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 2nd 2019, 9:16 pm
Anakin Solo, Maybe Alana Solo, Anakin Skywalker ofc, and Macial Recognition
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 2nd 2019, 9:25 pm
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Anakin Solo, Maybe Alana Solo, Anakin Skywalker ofc, and Macial Recognition
The only real answer, tbh.
IG
IG
Level Four
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 2nd 2019, 9:46 pm
Anakin and Jacen Solo, Allana Solo, Ben Skywalker, Vaylin, Outlander, maybe Revan, Valin Horn
KingofBlades
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 2nd 2019, 10:00 pm
Nah about Revan. He was already experiencing diminishing returns by the time of SWTOR as its mentioned that soon he wouldn't be able to resist Vitiate's TK. Which would only happen if he was no longer growing in lock step with Vitiate, meaning he was experiencing diminishing returns. So SoR Revan is somewhat close to full potential revan
BreakofDawn
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November 2nd 2019, 10:15 pm
Pretty sure SoR Revan is full potential Revan. You could make the argument that not having light side Revan with him somewhat limited him from his true mental (not power) potential, but that's about it.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 3rd 2019, 2:37 am
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Anakin Solo, Maybe Alana Solo, Anakin Skywalker ofc, and Macial Recognition

What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Haah

Why are you disrespecting Macial by saying there is a "full" potential version of him?
The Adventurous Jedi
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November 3rd 2019, 11:15 am
What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? 1289255181

OT - Galen, Vaylin, The Outlander and Anakin.
DarthAnt66
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November 3rd 2019, 12:23 pm
Anakin Solo and maybe Allana Solo.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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November 3rd 2019, 12:25 pm
i have a question- is vader's suited potential higher than palpatines still? they had an equal growth rate of power after he got the suit, but doesnt that mean that when vader reached the same age as palps (80-90s or something), he wouldve been stronger than palps was at that point?
IG
IG
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November 3rd 2019, 12:34 pm
No.
caffeineandshiny
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November 4th 2019, 3:06 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Not making an argument one way or the other about Revan surpassing GM Luke but he certainly wasn't his full potential in SoR. That was the whole reason Vitiate focused on splitting his mind, Revan was weaker with just one half of himself than he was whole.

We never saw what Revan could accomplish whole.

Revan Reborn's showing was immediately after being on Force blocking drugs for 3 years, on top of being tortured, starved, and unable to exercise (or even really move). Plus, being on one of the most powerful darkside nexuses in the universe (and he only used light side and neutral attacks). Plus, he only recovered his memories hours prior, there was no time for the two halves to smoothly merge much less time for Revan to practice with his newfound balance.

Even then he was STILL able to block 99% of Vitiate's fully charged lightning attack (1400 degrees F internal temperature is what a human body will cremate at, aka Nyriss' lightning. Vs humans will die if their internal temperature reaches over 120 degrees. Third degree burns occur when skin is heated to 160 degrees, and people will die in moments when the air temperature is over 200 degrees)

And AFTER Revan was hit, Scourge had a Force vision (aka it wasn't his opinion) that it was "impossible" to determine who would win, the team or Vitiate. And within the context of the novel, both Meetra and Scourge were sub Nyriss.

He was immediate after captured again and then was bombarded mentally by Vitiate and the Dread Masters for 300 years. After they discovered they couldn't break him they focused on splitting him in half so he could never reach his full potential.

Revan wearing out after 300 years wasn't him diminishing  permanently. That's like saying that Sidious was diminished just because he was worn out after facing Yoda. Revan would have recovered if he had had the time, and hadn't been split in half mentally. The entire time he was using his (and Meetra's) energy supply with no time to rest or recover any energy. Vs Vitiate who was able to rest and wasn't being held in a prison that constantly siphoned energy (energy that went to Vitiate). That doesn't mean that that energy was gone permanently, any more than any other exhausting exercise means you will never get your energy back.

SoR Revan was superior to Revan Reborn and Foundry Revan, and that was without being whole (which was emphasized time and again that that loss of his light side greatly reduced what he WOULD be capable of).

His fight on the Foundry was done when he hadn't had time to recover really (as shown by the fact that his dark half was vastly superior to this showing after being given a couple of years to recover from, you know, 3 CENTURIES of being force drained) and he was at war within himself (his light half didn't really care about fighting anymore).

Consider that the first time he used both halves at all, in the most rudimentary way possible (and mere hours after recovering his full memories, AND greatly weakened), he sent Vitiate flying to land in a heep (yes, this was with Vitiate concentrating on dominating Revan but by the same turn Revan would have been distracted by at least holding Vitiate's mental attack in check until Revan could use his physical attack).

I'm not saying Revan's potential matches the chosen one or GM Luke (who was stated to have Anakin's potential) but people are definitely selling him short.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 4th 2019, 3:43 pm
As for my vote, only Anakin would rival GM Luke if he reached his full potential.

Only beings like Abeloth actually surpass.
BreakofDawn
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November 4th 2019, 4:03 pm
Not making an argument one way or the other about Revan surpassing GM Luke but he certainly wasn't his full potential in SoR. That was the whole reason Vitiate focused on splitting his mind, Revan was weaker with just one half of himself than he was whole.

No, it was because it unbalanced him and nearly saw Vitiate's rise and triumph:

"His efforts will only strengthen the Emperor, not destroy him."
"Hatred fuelled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see."

We never saw what Revan could accomplish whole.

Irrelevant. Having his light side self would only have made him more restrained and cautious.

Revan Reborn's showing was immediately after being on Force blocking drugs for 3 years,
Which was essentially mitigated after.



on top of being tortured,
Stopped months before he was freed.



starved

I don't remember this being stated.


, and unable to exercise (or even really move).

Also not true. He was allowed to move within the confines of the cell.


Plus, being on one of the most powerful darkside nexuses in the universe (and he only used light side and neutral attacks).
Also not true. Even within the novel he draws upon the dark side.



Plus, he only recovered his memories hours prior, there was no time for the two halves to smoothly merge much less time for Revan to practice with his newfound balance.
He was imprisoned for months/years.



Even then he was STILL able to block 99% of Vitiate's fully charged lightning attack (1400 degrees F internal temperature is what a human body will cremate at, aka Nyriss' lightning. Vs humans will die if their internal temperature reaches over 120 degrees. Third degree burns occur when skin is heated to 160 degrees, and people will die in moments when the air temperature is over 200 degrees)

You're applying real life physics to a completely different type of energy.


And AFTER Revan was hit, Scourge had a Force vision (aka it wasn't his opinion) that it was "impossible" to determine who would win, the team or Vitiate. And within the context of the novel, both Meetra and Scourge were sub Nyriss.

He also said about 3 pages later that Vitiate would have won anyway.


He was immediate after captured again and then was bombarded mentally by Vitiate and the Dread Masters for 300 years.
With help from Meetra, he resisted. Vitiate was also distracted throughout this time, so it was largely just the DM who failed to dominate an act 2 Darth Nox/EW.



After they discovered they couldn't break him they focused on splitting him in half so he could never reach his full potential.

Source? Because this wasn't their intent, only a side effect.


Revan would have recovered if he had had the time, and hadn't been split in half mentally.
There's literally no evidence he was weaker without LS Revan, only that he was a moron.



The entire time he was using his (and Meetra's) energy supply with no time to rest or recover any energy.
Meetra's energy constantly refreshed him, so he basically never ran out until the 300 years ended.



Vs Vitiate who was able to rest and wasn't being held in a prison that constantly siphoned energy (energy that went to Vitiate).
You mean the Vitiate who was constantly distracted building Zakuul, raising a family and fuelling wars?



That doesn't mean that that energy was gone permanently, any more than any other exhausting exercise means you will never get your energy back.

We know this.


SoR Revan was superior to Revan Reborn and Foundry Revan, and that was without being whole (which was emphasized time and again that that loss of his light side greatly reduced what he WOULD be capable of).

Except he wasn't reduced at all. If anything, he was more lethal than ever before. His death allowed him to use his powers to a greater intensity and with less restrictions.


His fight on the Foundry was done when he hadn't had time to recover really (as shown by the fact that his dark half was vastly superior to this showing after being given a couple of years to recover from, you know, 3 CENTURIES of being force drained) and he was at war within himself (his light half didn't really care about fighting anymore).

No one disputes this? However, his light half wasn't trying to stop him fighting, only accepted his death when it happened versus his dark half which clung to life.


Consider that the first time he used both halves at all, in the most rudimentary way possible (and mere hours after recovering his full memories,
Months to years, not hours.



AND greatly weakened),
By what, lol? The serum caused the effects of the drugs to wear off, the torture stopped months beforehand, he had the room to exercise, and he could still meditate and centre himself.



he sent Vitiate flying to land in a heep (yes, this was with Vitiate concentrating on dominating Revan but by the same turn Revan would have been distracted by at least holding Vitiate's mental attack in check until Revan could use his physical attack).

Not if Revan attacked first enough that protecting his mind didn't matter, which is what he did.


I'm not saying Revan's potential matches the chosen one or GM Luke (who was stated to have Anakin's potential) but people are definitely selling him short.

We're not. As far as we've seen, SoR is his full potential, or damn near close to it. While it's certainly nothing to scoff at (he's above the likes of Vader, Dooku, pre-EoKOTET Outlander, chained Vaylin, etc), he's still inferior to the ROTS titans, the Outlander, unchained Vaylin, or unhindered MFV.
dark_globe
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What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential? Empty Re: What characters would rival/beat/be on par with GM Luke if they reached their full potential?

November 5th 2019, 5:25 pm
no one really .
closest to him are sidious and valkorion
(these two even reached their full potential i believe but it is not enough to beat GM luke ,
that being said they are the 2nd and 3rd most powerful "mortal" force users ever)
vaylin is a wild card , she probably had a potential to be >= valkorion which is huge .
unfortunately she never reached the hights of her talents .

anakin is the only one with the potential to surpass luke and all the others for that matter .

i don´t believe galen , jacen or revan had a potential to ever be in the same league as valk , DE sheev and GM luke .
The Adventurous Jedi
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November 5th 2019, 5:30 pm
Galen's stated to have that potential though.
BreakofDawn
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November 5th 2019, 9:18 pm
Immortal Emperor wrote:Galen's stated to have that potential though.
Source?
The Adventurous Jedi
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November 5th 2019, 10:35 pm
Sidious has stated Galen could have been his "successor," his "equal" which is backed up by Insider 100 stating Galen has "the potential to be the most powerful Force User ever" and that he represents “what Luke would have become if he had joined his father” i.e. his potential is at worst equal to Sidious, at best better than Sidious's and comparable to Luke Skywalker's.
BreakofDawn
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November 5th 2019, 11:25 pm
Found the "most powerful Force user ever" quote. For one, it sounds like Hayden overplaying his creations, as the context suggests:

"The Apprentice is the photo negative of Luke Skywalker. He's been raised by Darth Vader, and is what Luke would have become if he had joined his father. Vader's not a very nice daddy. This guy has been raised to be a Jedi. When the Jedi use the Force, they respect it and don't overuse it. The bad guys—the Sith—keep testing their limits. Vader discovered this person who had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever. He's up there with the top tier. He's extremely powerful. Vader has trained him in such a way that he just kept pushing his limitations, seeing how far he could use the Force. So, where a normal Jedi might use the Force to trick his way past a few stormtroopers, the apprentice might use the Force to bring down an adjacent building on top of those stormtroopers. He's extremely confident in everything he does. He's been trained by Vader to be an assassin, an unstoppable force."


He's either hyping up Starkiller (Insider #100 was published in March 2008 and the game was released in September 2008) or they decided to tone it down. Either way, I'd take it with a grain of salt. It's possible he might have had potential equal to TFU Sidious, but to be > GM Luke based on a single source while quite clearly intending to hype up the game? He's basically saying "come feel like the most powerful, evil Force user ever!". 

Not to mention TFU Sidious believed that his powers would most likely peak at him being his equal, and I don't need to tell you that there's a huge gap between TFU Sidious and GM Luke.

All in all, it's a pretty suspect accolade.
caffeineandshiny
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November 6th 2019, 12:32 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
WalkingInCircles wrote:
Not making an argument one way or the other about Revan surpassing GM Luke but he certainly wasn't his full potential in SoR. That was the whole reason Vitiate focused on splitting his mind, Revan was weaker with just one half of himself than he was whole.

1. No, it was because it unbalanced him and nearly saw Vitiate's rise and triumph:

"His efforts will only strengthen the Emperor, not destroy him."
"Hatred fuelled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see."


We never saw what Revan could accomplish whole.

2. Irrelevant. Having his light side self would only have made him more restrained and cautious.

Revan Reborn's showing was immediately after being on Force blocking drugs for 3 years,
3. Which was essentially mitigated after.



on top of being tortured,
4. Stopped months before he was freed.



starved

5. I don't remember this being stated.


, and unable to exercise (or even really move).

6. Also not true. He was allowed to move within the confines of the cell.


Plus, being on one of the most powerful darkside nexuses in the universe (and he only used light side and neutral attacks).
7. Also not true. Even within the novel he draws upon the dark side.



Plus, he only recovered his memories hours prior, there was no time for the two halves to smoothly merge much less time for Revan to practice with his newfound balance.
8. He was imprisoned for months/years.



Even then he was STILL able to block 99% of Vitiate's fully charged lightning attack (1400 degrees F internal temperature is what a human body will cremate at, aka Nyriss' lightning. Vs humans will die if their internal temperature reaches over 120 degrees. Third degree burns occur when skin is heated to 160 degrees, and people will die in moments when the air temperature is over 200 degrees)

9. You're applying real life physics to a completely different type of energy.


And AFTER Revan was hit, Scourge had a Force vision (aka it wasn't his opinion) that it was "impossible" to determine who would win, the team or Vitiate. And within the context of the novel, both Meetra and Scourge were sub Nyriss.

10. He also said about 3 pages later that Vitiate would have won anyway.


He was immediate after captured again and then was bombarded mentally by Vitiate and the Dread Masters for 300 years.
11. With help from Meetra, he resisted. Vitiate was also distracted throughout this time, so it was largely just the DM who failed to dominate an act 2 Darth Nox/EW.



After they discovered they couldn't break him they focused on splitting him in half so he could never reach his full potential.

12. Source? Because this wasn't their intent, only a side effect.


Revan would have recovered if he had had the time, and hadn't been split in half mentally.
13. There's literally no evidence he was weaker without LS Revan, only that he was a moron.



The entire time he was using his (and Meetra's) energy supply with no time to rest or recover any energy.
14. Meetra's energy constantly refreshed him, so he basically never ran out until the 300 years ended.



Vs Vitiate who was able to rest and wasn't being held in a prison that constantly siphoned energy (energy that went to Vitiate).
15. You mean the Vitiate who was constantly distracted building Zakuul, raising a family and fuelling wars?



That doesn't mean that that energy was gone permanently, any more than any other exhausting exercise means you will never get your energy back.

16. We know this.


SoR Revan was superior to Revan Reborn and Foundry Revan, and that was without being whole (which was emphasized time and again that that loss of his light side greatly reduced what he WOULD be capable of).

17. Except he wasn't reduced at all. If anything, he was more lethal than ever before. His death allowed him to use his powers to a greater intensity and with less restrictions.


His fight on the Foundry was done when he hadn't had time to recover really (as shown by the fact that his dark half was vastly superior to this showing after being given a couple of years to recover from, you know, 3 CENTURIES of being force drained) and he was at war within himself (his light half didn't really care about fighting anymore).

18. No one disputes this? However, his light half wasn't trying to stop him fighting, only accepted his death when it happened versus his dark half which clung to life.


Consider that the first time he used both halves at all, in the most rudimentary way possible (and mere hours after recovering his full memories,
19. Months to years, not hours.



AND greatly weakened),
20. By what, lol? The serum caused the effects of the drugs to wear off, the torture stopped months beforehand, he had the room to exercise, and he could still meditate and centre himself.



he sent Vitiate flying to land in a heep (yes, this was with Vitiate concentrating on dominating Revan but by the same turn Revan would have been distracted by at least holding Vitiate's mental attack in check until Revan could use his physical attack).

21. Not if Revan attacked first enough that protecting his mind didn't matter, which is what he did.


I'm not saying Revan's potential matches the chosen one or GM Luke (who was stated to have Anakin's potential) but people are definitely selling him short.

22. We're not. As far as we've seen, SoR is his full potential, or damn near close to it. While it's certainly nothing to scoff at (he's above the likes of Vader, Dooku, pre-EoKOTET Outlander, chained Vaylin, etc), he's still inferior to the ROTS titans, the Outlander, unchained Vaylin, or unhindered MFV.

I apologize as I am unable to figure out how to put my response under each part, so I added numbers to each part that I am responding to. And let me just say, thank you for spending the time to respond.

1. Yes, it most certainly did make Revan weaker than he would have been. "That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together/ The Emperor split you apart because you were strongest when you were together."


That is on top of the fact that, until his bodily death at the Foundry, he very much had the body of a 40 year old man. The idea that his growth would cap out there, considering all we know about Revan, is about as accurate as saying that Mace/Dooku capped out at age 40. In some ways, considering his insatiable desire for knowledge, it is even MORE untrue about Revan.

2. It is baffling to me that you would dismiss wisdom and caution as "irrelevant", even if it is shown that that was NOT all that Revan lost. As we see time and again, those can make or break a fight (Yoda vs Palpatine, Obi Wan vs Anakin, etc.). Furthermore, we have direct statements that Revan wasn't "nearly" as good as he would have been if he had been whole. On top of that, we see what light side Revan was capable of through the fight against both strike teams. The idea that something that could levitate large stone staircases, resurrect/revive party members, block dark Revan's attempt to disable the Outlander, etc would add "nothing" or "next to nothing" is provably untrue.

Even among the Sith, wisdom is highly coveted and treasured. "Did ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?" So even if it were true that he wasn't stronger when he was whole, wisdom lost is nothing to scoff at. Wisdom has a direct impact on current power, as well as a huge impact on potential.

3. The drug reference was to the fact he basically hadn't used the Force in any significant way beyond meditating and small influences for 3 years. He was kept drugged to the "edge of unconsciousness" in order to keep him helpless and unable to escape. Even if it was mitigated by the antidote, he only had hours without it in his system before he faced Vitiate. Even then Scourge merely said the antidote would "help" (pg. 293). Not that it would restore him to 100%.

4. Torture isn't something that you recover from instantly in a situation where you are still a captive. Do you really think Nyriss cared about any lasting damage she did to his body? The fact that he shrugged it off is a testament more to him than it is an indicator that what he went through was 'not that bad'.

5. "Starved" was a poor choice of words on my part. What I meant by it was not that he was being killed by lack of nutrition, but that he was receiving the bare minimum. Which certainly has an impact on health and general fitness.

6. The amount of drugs that they had Revan on kept him "drugged to the edge of unconsciousness" (Revan pg. 197), in which state Revan was STILL able to call on the Force. And Nyriss, or Scourge, would've never let his mind clear beyond that (especially when it is mentioned that they changed drugs regularly so that he wouldn't develop a resistance to them), as shown by the fact that practically every time Revan speaks it is stated just how muddled his mind was. The "not being able to move really" was in reference to that, as shown several times in the novel.

"Revan struggled to his feet, battling the mind numbing effects of the chemicals coursing through his veins" (Revan pg. 287).
"Revan briefly contemplated making a grab for the blaster, but the drugs slowed him physically as much as mentally" (Revan pg. 288) For reference this is when facing an ordinary guard that is standing right in front of him.
Then, from merely standing for a little bit and using the barest amount of Force power (amplifying the fear of the already terrified guard) he "reeled" and Meetra was forced to catch him. "With Meetra's help he lowered himself to the floor. His heart was pounding and his head was spinning...he wasn't strong enough to keep it up any longer, and now his body was responding with an acute overreaction" (Revan pg. 291).

But yeah, I'm sure that it was a great comfort to Revan that was physically free to move around his cell, even if merely standing was a monumental effort and something he didn't do except under the most dire of circumstances.

7. The only time in the entire fight he drew on the darkside was when he was using the Force in its purest form. It was described as "twin rushing rivers" (pg. 327): he was drawing upon the light side in an equal amount to what he was using from the dark. So even if he COULD have drawn on more darkside energy by using the nexus, by using the lightside in an equal amount he was limited to what he could draw on from the light. The rest of the time he was using pure light side.

8. Yes he was imprisoned for 3 years. Which has no bearing on the fact he recovered his full memories hours before the fight with Vitiate.So my point still stands that he went into the fight having just, for the first time in his life, been able to merge all his current memories with all of his past memories (especially those of his darkside). And immediately after he was captured, and he was never allowed to smoothly merge his mind, Vitiate actively exploited it and split him in two.

"...as much as he  could remember, at least. He revealed that the Jedi had wiped away most of his early memories, including all traces of what had happened to him in the Emperor's dungeons" (pg. 226).
"A million images- years upon years of forgotten people, places, and events- flooded his consciousness simultaneously. In his weakened state it was too much to take. As his brain went into sensory overload, his body went limp" (pg. 292).

9. Yes, I am applying real life physics. Much like people apply real life physics by saying that a character can move "faster than the human eye can track" or "survive an explosion". And yes Sith lightning is more than just heat...but the heat part of it can be analysed at least between Nyriss and Vitiate. Both used it with the same intention (vs say Dooku's intention to throw Ventress out a window with it), and heat is very much a part of it.

Furthermore, the assessment is backed up by statements from the writers and developers that Revan was a legitimate threat to Vitiate in the same breath as saying Vaylin was a real threat, or that players in SoR should get the sense of a "struggle" between Revan and the Emperor.

I was crudely demonstrating that those comments are backed up by feats.

10. That is why I specifically mentioned how the Force vision is not an "opinion". It is a vision of likely futures. Vs Scourge's later assessment is an opinion. And, it is the context of Scourge assuring himself that he did the right thing by betraying Revan.

Which do you consider to be a more reliable source? So many force visions showing both Revan's triumph and defeat that "there was no way to know which was the most likely outcome" (pg. 331) or Scourge reassuring himself that he isn't a scumbag traitor right before he gets granted eternal life?

Especially considering that Revan's own opinion, after being defeated, reinforced the vision that Scourge had (and at this point in time Revan wasn't cocky, he actively embraced his death for the good of the Republic). "It was impossible to know what would have happened if Scourge had not betrayed them in the throne room...there was no way to be sure, and no point in dwelling on the past" (pg. 339).

So we have 3 statements: 1 from the Force in favor of a 50 50ish fight, 1 from Scourge trying to reassure himself, and 1 from Revan who had a pipeline directly into the Emperor's mind at this point.

11. Meetra provided strength to him ("As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her" (pg. 338)) but that strength was compared to a "trickle". Basically she helped him to gain some energy back from that which he lost to the Emperor through the draining. But it was Revan who was mentally warring against the Emperor and the Dread Masters.

Furthermore, it wasn't even just the DMs and the Emperor. Revan's cell was "as much laboratory as prison" and the Emperor's will and link to Revan was maintained by "the infernal machines powering the cell". Even when the Emperor wasn't actively focusing on him, that didn't give Revan rest. The Emperor was constantly draining him to "sustain his own twisted existence", even when he was doing other things. It was described as a "never-ending mental war", one that the Emperor did not have to fight alone any more than a group of prison guards beating on a prisoner who is hog tied.

12. Source? Once again I will direct you to this quote. "So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart..." "That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together/ The Emperor split you apart because you were strongest when you were together."- Revan and the Outlander, SWOR

It was 100% the Emperor's desired result. When he discovered he couldn't get past Revan's defenses, he focused on splitting him in two.

13. So I guess Bizzaro is just as good as Superman in a fight? Beyond the fact that a) I've proven several times that Revan wasn't "nearly" as good separated, b) you are vastly downplaying the effect that wisdom has on one's fighting ability and, especially, future potential, and c) you are ignoring the feats that light side Revan did (post mortem), by himself.

14. Meetra the never ending Energizer Bunny, always fully fresh and ready to rumble. No but seriously, this goes back to number 11. where it was quite clearly shown that she was providing him with a "trickle" so that he didn't utterly burn out. He was still doing the vast majority on his own and ALL of the actual mental warfare on his own. All she was doing was refreshing his reserves, much like the Emperor was using Revan to power his own reserves (and, you know, the Emperor not being in a prison cell that kept one in suspended animation and constantly drained one's power. And having the DMs to switch out with).

15. See 14.

16. The reason I mention it is because the talk before seemed to imply that some people thought that. Not that they did, it just seemed that way.

17. That's kinda my point...SoR Revan clearly showed that he was even more lethal than before when he was, again, not nearly as good split as he was whole. If, split from his wisdom and his true potential, he was STILL able to become deadlier than ever doesn't that kinda speak volumes about what he COULD have done?

18. In the Foundry he was already experiencing the effects of the Emperor having all but split him in two. With only half of him interested in fighting, that would greatly reduce what the other half could do. I wasn't saying that his light half was trying to "stop" him from fighting (not at this point at least) but that it had no interest in helping out.

19. I said hours and I meant hours. He recovered his full memories (see number 8) hours before facing the Emperor in the throne room, when Meetra handed him his mask, and basically had little more than a few dreams of his time as Darth Revan up until this point, never mind his memories of his first time going through Jedi training being basically gone.

20. The serum got rid of the drugs or at least "helped" (pg. 291) with them and Revan can be assumed to have purged the rest, but that doesn't change the fact that he hadn't practiced in years, or even had more than the most base level of mediation that he was able to use. Torture can take years to recover from even under the best of circumstances, so the fact he was relatively okay is more a testament to him than it is an indicator that Scourge and Nyriss didn't use every technique they knew (pg. 196/7) for several months straight (pg. 225). I have already shown how he was unable, physically, to exercise and even if he had been a normal person who didn't need drugs at all to keep him a prisoner, a prison cell is hardly adequate for exercise (as you seem to imply). He was also weakened by the darkside nexus, and as shown he only used the darkside in conjunction with the light, so the dark would be limited to what he could draw from the light. Revan Reborn was also actively agaiinst using the dark side only (as shown by him preaching at Scourge constantly) (this obviously had changed 300 years later).

21. Yes he responded to a mental attack with a physical attack that was so quick that Vitiate didn't even had time to brace himself much less pull his mind back from the mental assault and form a shield. Pretty damn fast if you ask me, and also shows just how little Revan prepped the attack to unleash it that quickly.

22. Yes, people are selling his potential short. Maybe not his abilities as much as his potential (as I do greatly appreciate that you list him above Vader, Dooku, the Outlander etc) although you are still low balling his fight against Vitiate, and what he managed to accomplish. And I agree that from what he showed (actually showed, not speculation on what he COULD have shown had fate given him a different path) he isn't on the same tier as Vitiate, Palpatine, Yoda, GM Luke (I disagree with putting unchained Vaylin on this list, because while her potential might be greater, her actual power achieved is not imo. But, don't respond to that here because I'll get back to that in a minute with further detail in a second post). I would place Revan as a high nine, while I would put Vitiate and Yoda as solid 10s, DM Palptine as a 10.5 (yes, on a scale of 1 to 10), and GM Luke as an 11. Then Abeloth as like a 20 (I'm exaggerating with her but you get what I mean).


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 6th 2019, 12:55 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Incorrect tense)
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