Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

SnowxElf wrote:Kaan either mind rapes savage successfully or the team loses.

Tybalt wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:Kaan either mind rapes savage successfully or the team loses.

A massively pre-prime Bane can resist Kaan's telepathy.

True, but resisting TP is not necessarily a demonstration of power, Bane's own will power helps him resist Kaan's attempts. Ventress was capable of TPing Savage into a thrall. I could see Kaan's TP being able to affect him.

SnowxElf wrote:

Tybalt wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:Kaan either mind rapes savage successfully or the team loses.

A massively pre-prime Bane can resist Kaan's telepathy.

True, but resisting TP is not necessarily a demonstration of power, Bane's own will power helps him resist Kaan's attempts. Ventress was capable of TPing Savage into a thrall. I could see Kaan's TP being able to affect him.

Ventress never outright Tp'd Savage, she activated his dormant programming that was placed by a group of Nightsisters and Talzin herself. 

Tybalt wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:Kaan either mind rapes savage successfully or the team loses.

A massively pre-prime Bane can resist Kaan's telepathy.

Tybalt wrote:@VictreebelVictr

Bane stayed in the position of supplication until the Dark Lord was well out of sight, then stood up and brushed the dirt from his knees with a grim scowl. He had felt Kaan's efforts to dominate his mind, but they had had no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar. Yet he had seized on the opportunity and delivered a performance worthy of the greatest dramatist on Alderaan.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Tybalt wrote:@Praxis

It's made pretty clear that Maul is taken off guard there. It's kind of the point of the scene. He isn't tapping into the Force to augment his senses like he would during a normal fight. It's similar to when Anakin is watching Mace and Sheev fight in the ROTS novel and sees them as blurs even though he's on their level.

This is patently not true. Maul was in the middle of a training session and actively calling on the Force.

His surprise stems from Sidious interrupting his training session.

Tybalt wrote:Most of these sources are talking about skill, not power, and are contradicted by G-Canon which asserts that Maul is a level eight and Sidious is a level nine on the duelling scale created by George Lucas and Nick Gillard. The difference between the two levels is "enormous" according to Gillard.

"Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous."

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary

Tybalt wrote:As such I will only reply to the two sources that do talk about power.

Tybalt wrote:You have conveniently left out some key information that changes that scene completely. That being that Sidious wasn't even tapping into his Force reserves.

Tybalt wrote:

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

This source doesn't contradict Star Wars: Episode I Journal - Darth Maul. It just doesn't go into as much detail. The context of the scene remains the same though. Sidious "barely deflected" the blows (due to not tapping into his Force reserves) but "Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed."

Do you think he's augmenting himself while Sidious is chewing him out lol? He isn't trying to fight Sheev; Sheev is scolding him and he's taking his licks. Maul let his guard down, he thought combat was over, then Sheev taught him a lesson. It's foreshadowing what happens with Kenobi. If Maul starts augmenting himself then what? Tracks Sheev's movements and evades them and then beats Sheev while unarmed? He's at a disadvantage and isn't going to make any hasty moves like augmenting himself while Sheev is disciplining him since Sheev would be able to sense that and see it as a challenge and then probably kill him since Maul wouldn't have a weapon to defend himself. There isn't any other reason Maul would augment himself besides if Maul planned on fighting Sidious, and it's pretty clear that wasn't in the cards for Maul in this situation.

What do ROTS dueling tiers have anything to do with what we are talking about? We are talking about TPM . Sidious being a nine is his rating in ROTS and has no bearing on TPM.

I'm curious as to why you think "equally formidable" is in reference to just skill

It wasn't an attempt at being underhanded, it was just irrelevant to my point. The fact that you would even suggest that I was being underhanded is pretty insulting and just reflects your lack of understanding. The line about reserves is in reference to their stamina. When Maul had reserves to draw on to replenish his stamina he was pushing Sheev to the brink, but then he lost because going into the fight Sheev was fresh while Maul was tired. Maul's reserves were spent because of his long ordeal on Hypori, unlike Sheev.

The quote makes it clear that when Maul can actually draw on his reserves he can push Sheev to the brink of defeat, but he ran out of stamina quickly because he had spent his reserves earlier. Sheev didn't win because he was better, he won because Maul was already exhausted and wounded going into the fight.

We have quotes saying that when Maul fights Kenobi and Jinn he will the strongest fighter in the galaxy and that Maul is only slightly behind Sheev because of his (lack of) ability to scheme and not his ability in battle. We have the Hypori fight where Maul nearly defeats Sidious when Maul is able to draw on his reserves to restore his stamina and is staggering Sidious with his blows to the point that Sidious was visibly struggling to keep Maul at bay. We also have Darth Sidious saying that Maul's skill with a blade and as a warrior are peerless, and then another quote saying that Maul is the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy - a deadlier warrior than Sidious. Then finally by TPM, we have a quote saying that Maul and Sheev are equally formidable. There is much more supporting parity between Maul and Sheev in TPM than there is supporting a big gap between the two. Don't come at me with weak shit like not even knowing the difference between TPM and ROTS especially when you insult my credibility.

We have quotes saying that when Maul fights Kenobi and Jinn he will the strongest fighter in the galaxy and that Maul is only slightly behind Sheev because of his (lack of) ability to scheme and not his ability in battle. We have the Hypori fight where Maul nearly defeats Sidious when Maul is able to draw on his reserves to restore his stamina and is staggering Sidious with his blows to the point that Sidious was visibly struggling to keep Maul at bay. We also have Darth Sidious saying that Maul's skill with a blade and as a warrior are peerless, and then another quote saying that Maul is the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy - a deadlier warrior than Sidious. Then finally by TPM, we have a quote saying that Maul and Sheev are equally formidable. There is much more supporting parity between Maul and Sheev in TPM than there is supporting a big gap between the two. Don't come at me with weak shit like not even knowing the difference between TPM and ROTS especially when you insult my credibility.

Tybalt wrote:Nowhere did I say that he was going to fight Sidious. What I said was that he had been actively using the Force literally seconds ago as you claimed he wasn't.

Tybalt wrote:However,  shouldn't your assertion that the two are peers mean he should be capable of doing just that? Are they peers or not?

Tybalt wrote:You think Sidious improved his duelling skill between TPM and RotS?

Tybalt wrote:It's a duelling scale, not a power scale.

Tybalt wrote:He mastered lightsaber combat by the time he killed Plagueis in 32 BBY, and there are no sources that state he got more skilled at lightsaber combat between TPM and RotS.

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Star Wars Battle Packs: Sith Lord Attack wrote:Never in its long history have such powers clashed within the walls of the ancient Theed Royal Palace. Three warriors, each a master of lightsaber combat, contest for victory at the heart of the palace, their battle raging along the treacherous edge of a melting pit hundreds of meters deep. For the first time in a thousand years, the light and dark sides of the Force have joined in conflict.

Tybalt wrote:If he was "equally formidable" then he would kill Sidious "in true Sith tradition".

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Tybalt wrote:You’d have me believe that a starving and weakened 17 year old Maul can beat a fresh Sidious only five years off of his TPM self? Really?

Tybalt wrote:The context of the scene makes it clear that Sidious "barely deflected" the blows because he wasn’t augmenting himself.

Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace wrote:Lightsaber clutched in both hands, he stood watching helplessly as Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul battled on the narrow ledge that encircled the melting pit. A stream of electrons was all that separated him from the combatants, but it might as well have been a wall of permacrete three meters thick. Desperately he cast about for a triggering device that might shut the system down, but he had no better luck here than he'd had at the other end. He could only watch and wait and pray that Qui-Gon could hold on.

It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

Star Wars: Jedi Path wrote:When using Form III to fight another saber-wielding enemy, a Jedi should pull all moves close to the body and seldom make sweeps or lunges. This creates a strong defensive cocoon that makes it difficult for an enemy to land more than a glancing blow. But it means that a Form III master is unable to mount a counterattack. Yet the minimalist defense preserves the Jedi’s energy reserves while simultaneously tiring an opponent, and an exhausted enemy will eventually slip up, allowing a Form III master to score a victory.

I, Jedi wrote:In doing all I'd done, I must have burned off most of my personal Force reservoir. I couldn't use it to link myself to the Force, to refresh myself. I was alone and tired, not thinking particularly sharply, but I knew one thing: if I stayed where I was, I'd be found and found out. The Jedi clearly survived the battle with Shala, but there was no way Jenos Idanian could have.

Star Wars Episode I Journal - Darth Maul (2000) wrote:I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

Tybalt wrote:See the above answer. Sidious wasn't augmenting himself which makes Maul's "accomplishment" meaningless.

Tybalt wrote:In fact if Maul had failed to do even that much then Sidious would likely have killed him on the spot. TPM Maul "had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him."

Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Tybalt wrote:Yet Qui-Gon "seemed to anticipate each lunge and jab, as if he knew how Maul would move before Maul himself knew" when they first faced off.

As the boy ran for the Queen's ship. Maul lashed out at the Jedi again and again, but the Jedi blocked each blow. Maul was suddenly aware that the Jedi seemed to anticipate each lunge and jab, as if he knew how Maul would move before Maul himself knew. Maul drew from the dark side of the Force and began to move faster, increasing the speed of his lunges along with his footwork. The Jedi kept up with Maul, but Maul soon sensed...

He's getting tired.

Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at the Jedi. Maul was certain he would defeat his opponent.

He will fall heavily, like a monument.

But the Jedi did not falter. As Maul spun and moved around the Jedi, he saw the Queen's starship lift off. He also saw the boarding ramp was still extended.

Maul leaped over the Jed, blocking his path to the rising ship, as their lightsabers continued to weave and smash into each other. The ship had just moved above their position when the Jedi leaped straight up and landed on the extended ramp, his lightsaber still blazing.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

Are you telling me that Sidious couldn't do the same as Qui-Gon? He'd do far better. He wouldn't tire and he would completely overwhelm Maul.

Yes, Maul then duelled Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan simultaneously but he was defeated by a rage-amped TPM Obi-Wan in the end. If it was Sidious against the duo you could expect something like he later did to Maul and Savage late into the Clone Wars.

Tybalt wrote:There is nothing that supports any sort of parity between the two in Force power, and that you honestly believe that is baffling. Your reliance on skill quotes and a 17 year old Maul pushing an unaugmented Sidious in order to draw a link to parity in Force power is a weak argument at best. Sidious has always been far more powerful and that remained the case even late into the Clone Wars as you can see from the above Youtube video.

lelandp23 wrote:how am i getting destroyed when im not even debating weirdo

I_Like_Chee wrote:It's always amusing to see new members try to act smart while getting destroyed.

Praxis greydolling.

I_Like_Chee wrote:It's always amusing to see new members try to act smart while getting destroyed.

Praxis greydolling.

Tybalt wrote:@Praxis A truly baffling reply. It's as if you don't understand the implications of your own arguments, and you are not really reading my arguments or sources. Your interpretation of them is very curious to say the least. Attacking me at the end just makes your post look even weaker overall. I think I've offended you somehow as you are being very aggressive. Anyway, I've challenged you to an SS, which you haven't answered even though I tagged you.