Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

Tenebrae is not capped to G-CANON and it doesn't exist anymore. As per demonstrated feats and D6 sourcebooks, Tenebrae surpassed all Sith in his capacity to use the Force and he is second-to-none in destructive applications. This is the new reality. It's like some people choose to be in denial and do not want to admit the obvious.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Luke as of DE, is stated to be stronger in the Force than Sheev. Luke as of JAT is stated to be stronger than ever, including DE Luke amped by Force Harmony. That's 11ABY Luke. 8 years later he grows vastly in power and mentally overcomes all prior hinderances. That's Luke 6 years before the NJO era even starts. Luke goes through a ton more Skywalker growth until he achieves such a strong connection and understanding that he can, at will, achieve a state of oneness. Then Luke goes through Legacy of the Force era, and then he goes through FOTJ.

Your arms are just too short to box with Luke.

Oh really? He was that strong but got his ___ handed to him by the Force spirit of Exar Kun which isn't his prime incarnation as of NJO by the way.

And Luke Skywalker had this to say about Marka Ragnos:



Tenebrae surpassed Marka Ragnos circa 4999 BBY and continued to increase his strength and hone his abilities afterwards. My arms are much longer than any argument you can make for Exar Kun.

I am not sure how you perceive Luke's advances but he is repeatedly asserted to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at maximum in majority of the sources. Below is something more:

"It was not a flaw-no senseless accident had caused its loss, but rather a fight with one of the most powerful Jedi who had ever lived." - Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Ascension

He isn't a one-man show and he doesn't have near-infinite strength and abilities - only in FANON minds I would say. Even Anakin Skywalker doesn't quality for this view anymore because of what happened in Dark Empire.

Why are you using Exar Kun when he's very unlikely to be capped by Tenebrae anyway? Kun's so powerful in his prime that he tanked the combined light-side energy of tens of thousands of Jedi; including Thon and Nomi Sunrider, and survived. The gap between pre-ritual Kun and ritual Kun is magnitudes. He drained thousands of Massassi all made powerful with the dark side by Naga Sadow's achemy and enhanced far further in their ability to use the Force with Kun's conversion of them into dark-side abominations using his own DNA. That's besides an unknown amount of dark Jedi noted in KotOR.

All of your power growth is null and void when he's only even arguably beyond Ragnos as of Malgus's attempt at Emperor.

SnowxElf wrote:

G-Canon = stories told by George Lucas*
C-Canon = stories told by others

*What Lucas had to say about his characters is in regards to his works only. Things changed in the EU starting with Dark Empire in which Palpatine does things which are beyond the capacity of most (now Legends continuity) and Leland Chee have stated repeatedly that there are no absolutes whereas Lucas have excused himself.

Otherwise:

"I’ve left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That’s because there isn’t any story. I mean, I never thought of anything! And now there have been novels about the events after Episode IV, which isn’t at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn’t come back to life, the Emperor doesn’t get cloned and Luke doesn’t get married …" - George Lucas

False impositions are all rejected.

LadyKulvax wrote:
Why are you using Exar Kun when he's very unlikely to be capped by Tenebrae anyway? Kun's so powerful in his prime that he tanked the combined light-side energy of tens of thousands of Jedi; including Thon and Nomi Sunrider, and survived. The gap between pre-ritual Kun and ritual Kun is magnitudes. He drained thousands of Massassi all made powerful with the dark side by Naga Sadow's achemy and enhanced far further in their ability to use the Force with Kun's conversion of them into dark-side abominations using his own DNA. That's besides an unknown amount of dark Jedi noted in KotOR.

All of your power growth is null and void when he's only even arguably beyond Ragnos as of Malgus's attempt at Emperor.

You held so much promise but now.... I study these characters and know much about him. I was willing to entertain the notion of him being next to Tenebrae in LIFE but I might revisit my calculus. There are hints that the Sith became more powerful and capable under Tenebrae than they ever used to be before as a whole and BioWare is telling stories of really powerful ones. Historical underpinnings suggest that there are losses and gains over time. It is important to respect new updates and make an effort to accommodate them. This is standard practice worldwide.

You do not understand Tenebrae's advances through the years because you are looking for answers in sources which cannot provide you any. It took me a short while to cap Luke Skywalker and it will take me a short while to dismantle your Ragnos's statement as well. These guys are nothing to Tenebrae. Heed my advice and not push your luck with unsubstantiated statements. SWTOR is the only source which provide updates on the ancients and it have RETCONNED some things in older publications. Understand the meaning of RETCON, right? Please check google. Sigh.

So in other words you concede, cool.

LadyKulvax wrote:So in other words you concede, cool.

No, I have conceded nothing. I am still in the process of revisiting scaling chains and will disclose my findings at the time of my choosing. You are talking rubbish by the day on the other hand. This is the point.

You are a good and talented individual I am sure but you are not making much sense anymore. I rarely ever felt the need to respond to your statements but now.

I pointed out that Kun has a better showing of power than anything Tenebrae has displayed comparatively. As well as how ritual Kun is a massively different ball game to pre-ritual Kun.

And your response to that was that you're too busy re-evaluating your stance on living Kun. Then going on a tangent about Ragnos with no substance to be found anywhere.

You talk a lot of hype and yet not a single time have you ever actually managed to prove a point against me.

Do you understand the difference between IU and IU omniscient yet? Last time you didn't.

LadyKulvax wrote:I pointed out that Kun has a better showing of power than anything Tenebrae has displayed comparatively. As well as how ritual Kun is a massively different ball game to pre-ritual Kun.

And your response to that was that you're too busy re-evaluating your stance on living Kun. Then going on a tangent about Ragnos with no substance to be found anywhere.

You talk a lot of hype and yet not a single time have you ever actually managed to prove a point against me.

Do you understand the difference between IU and IU omniscient yet? Last time you didn't.

You outright dismiss presented evidence(s) and you are telling me that have I actually managed to prove a point against you? Talk about delusions. It is important to RECOGNIZE presented evidence(s) first and foremost and only then a conversation can be productive. This is how things work in life. Those who never learn, become irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Everything around us is changing in passing years - do you realize this? Perhaps you will one day. USA was the sole superpower of the world not long ago but China is now ascending and American establishment is cowering. Things will never remain the same in reality and also in the works of fiction. Just look at what have happened to the Star Wars lore under Disney. You better wake up.

LadyKulvax wrote:Why are you using Exar Kun when he's very unlikely to be capped by Tenebrae anyway? Kun's so powerful in his prime that he tanked the combined light-side energy of tens of thousands of Jedi; including Thon and Nomi Sunrider, and survived. The gap between pre-ritual Kun and ritual Kun is magnitudes. He drained thousands of Massassi all made powerful with the dark side by Naga Sadow's achemy and enhanced far further in their ability to use the Force with Kun's conversion of them into dark-side abominations using his own DNA. That's besides an unknown amount of dark Jedi noted in KotOR.

So much wrong in all of that.

Exar Kun did not exactly TANK the WALL OF LIGHT but escaped dissolution:

"Seeing that the Jedi fleet in the skies above him was poised to destroy him, Exar Kun opted for a somewhat risky escape. Utilizing the alchemical apparatus he used to mutate the Massassi, Exar Kun divested himself of his physical body and took refuge within one of his temples, knowing that his spirit would live forever and waiting for the day when he could take his vengeance on the Jedi." - Star Wars - D20 - The Darkside Sourcebook

+

Each dark side spirit has a focal point of power that anchors it in the physical world. For example, the interred Sith Lords of Korriban use their burial sarcophagi to hold their spirits for millennia after death. Freedon Nadd clung to his tomb for countless centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to turn his successor to the dark side. Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4. - Star Wars - D20 - The Darkside Sourcebook

+



From Star Wars - D6 - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

THE CATCH was that he lost his strength in the process:



From Star Wars - D6 - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

+

Cornered in his lair by an ancient Jedi battle fleet, Exar Kun chose to shed his physical form and preserve his spirit. After millennia of waiting for his revenge, he was rewarded with an opportunity too perfect to believe: The new Jedi Master, Luke Skywalker-the last Jedi in the galaxy-chose the Massassi ruins on Yavin 4 as the site of his school for training new Jedi. Skywalker's new Jedi academy would be located in the Great Temple-the very place where Exar Kun once mutated the primitive Massassi and planned the overthrow of the Old Republic.

But as a nonphysical spirit, there was little Kun could do directly. He contented himself with corrupting Skywalker's students, starting with the temperamental youth Gantoris. Under Exar Kun's dark tutelage, Gantoris's anger grew, until finally he assembled his own Lightsaber and challenged Skywalker to a duel. Gantoris failed to defeat the Jedi Knight, however, and Kun was forced to punish him. The other students found Gantoris's blackened corpse the next morning. - Star Wars - D20 - The Darkside Sourcebook

- and was reliant on the energy of living beings to do his bidding. He became very powerful - courtesy of Kyp Durron - whose potential and raw power was remarkable:



- and managed to defeat Luke Skywalker while he was already preoccupied with Kyp Durron - this was like 1 versus 2 dynamic. Luke was literally CAUGHT in a web of dark powers and couldn't maneuver to safety.

See the difference? You give your own spins to what is stated in the sources so that you can hype your favorite character beyond measure as if he was nigh-omnipotent and superior to all - you conveniently forget that there was no need for a world-scorching expression of power to vanquish him in direct confrontation:



The purple highlight in one of the quotes above help explain why Lightsabers could affect him. You tend to ignore the CONTEXT in your interpretations by and large. Luke Skywalker is also capped by statements - I posted one in this thread.

Do I have to explain to you the meaning of the word DEFINITIVE, like again? SWTOR-E is the most up-to-date licensed and published reference material for the ancients in the Legends continuity (co-written by multiple authors and approved by all branches of authorities including LucasFilm). It is not an account of historians but IU-OMNISCIENT (DEFINITIVE). Your protests won't make the source invalid.

Imagine being ignored by everyone for so long that it takes LeGenD to finally set you straight

ILS you got roflstomped by Elm, Ant and even DC. The fact you've shown your face again is a disgrace. Now leave before you die again like your sub-Exiles reborn Krayt.

USA was the sole superpower of the world not long ago but China is now ascending and American establishment is cowering.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:I pointed out that Kun has a better showing of power than anything Tenebrae has displayed comparatively. As well as how ritual Kun is a massively different ball game to pre-ritual Kun.

And your response to that was that you're too busy re-evaluating your stance on living Kun. Then going on a tangent about Ragnos with no substance to be found anywhere.

You talk a lot of hype and yet not a single time have you ever actually managed to prove a point against me.

Do you understand the difference between IU and IU omniscient yet? Last time you didn't.

you are telling me that have I actually managed to prove a point against you? Talk about delusions.

I'm glad you realise this delusion.  

S_W_LeGenD wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Why are you using Exar Kun when he's very unlikely to be capped by Tenebrae anyway? Kun's so powerful in his prime that he tanked the combined light-side energy of tens of thousands of Jedi; including Thon and Nomi Sunrider, and survived. The gap between pre-ritual Kun and ritual Kun is magnitudes. He drained thousands of Massassi all made powerful with the dark side by Naga Sadow's achemy and enhanced far further in their ability to use the Force with Kun's conversion of them into dark-side abominations using his own DNA. That's besides an unknown amount of dark Jedi noted in KotOR.

So much wrong in all of that.

Exar Kun did not exactly TANK the WALL OF LIGHT but escaped dissolution:

"Seeing that the Jedi fleet in the skies above him was poised to destroy him, Exar Kun opted for a somewhat risky escape. Utilizing the alchemical apparatus he used to mutate the Massassi, Exar Kun divested himself of his physical body and took refuge within one of his temples, knowing that his spirit would live forever and waiting for the day when he could take his vengeance on the Jedi." - Star Wars - D20 - The Darkside Sourcebook

+

Each dark side spirit has a focal point of power that anchors it in the physical world. For example, the interred Sith Lords of Korriban use their burial sarcophagi to hold their spirits for millennia after death. Freedon Nadd clung to his tomb for countless centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to turn his successor to the dark side. Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4. - Star Wars - D20 - The Darkside Sourcebook

+



From Star Wars - D6 - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

THE CATCH was that he lost his strength in the process:



From Star Wars - D6 - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

+

Cornered in his lair by an ancient Jedi battle fleet, Exar Kun chose to shed his physical form and preserve his spirit. After millennia of waiting for his revenge, he was rewarded with an opportunity too perfect to believe: The new Jedi Master, Luke Skywalker-the last Jedi in the galaxy-chose the Massassi ruins on Yavin 4 as the site of his school for training new Jedi. Skywalker's new Jedi academy would be located in the Great Temple-the very place where Exar Kun once mutated the primitive Massassi and planned the overthrow of the Old Republic.

But as a nonphysical spirit, there was little Kun could do directly. He contented himself with corrupting Skywalker's students, starting with the temperamental youth Gantoris. Under Exar Kun's dark tutelage, Gantoris's anger grew, until finally he assembled his own Lightsaber and challenged Skywalker to a duel. Gantoris failed to defeat the Jedi Knight, however, and Kun was forced to punish him. The other students found Gantoris's blackened corpse the next morning. - Star Wars - D20 - The Darkside Sourcebook

- and was reliant on the energy of living beings to do his bidding. He became very powerful - courtesy of Kyp Durron - whose potential and raw power was remarkable:



- and managed to defeat Luke Skywalker while he was already preoccupied with Kyp Durron - this was like 1 versus 2 dynamic. Luke was literally CAUGHT in a web of dark powers and couldn't maneuver to safety.

See the difference? You give your own spins to what is stated in the sources so that you can hype your favorite character beyond measure as if he was nigh-omnipotent and superior to all - you conveniently forget that there was no need for a world-scorching expression of power to vanquish him in direct confrontation:

Literally none of what you have stated is new to anyone because you're quoting a source from the 90s. And none of what you have said is in any way contradictory to my sources. Your sources generalise the over-all attack. But lack the details. Kun after getting hit had lost his power to it and required the temples to survive. Yes, correct. But that doesn't negate the rest of the context provided in vastly more up to date sources:

I, Jedi wrote:I let Streen fill Kun with our resolve to unite and defeat him, but Kun's contempt for us came rolling back along the line like an echo. He had faced fleets of ships and all the known Jedi. He had slain his own master. His power was unrivaled. He had defeated our Master and beyond our resolve to fight, we had no operative plans and nothing with which to challenge him. We were snacks he would devour at his leisure, not morsels that might choke him.

'The Exar Kun War' Timeline, Star Wars the Old Republic wrote:The Republic drove Kun back to Yavin 4, where the Dark Lord enacted a ritual, sacrificing his armies to keep his spirit alive. Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison Exar Kun's spirit in the temples on Yavin 4. From what we know, it remains there to this day.

The above proves that Kun was close to becoming too powerful for even the combined order to stop. Also that Kun prides himself on having faced the Order in combat, that wouldn't be the case if it was a total smackdown. Then better yet, it's even stated that their attack was incapable of defeating him entirely.

See, here's the issue. You think you have conflicting sources but when you reconcile them they actually compliment each other to a form a larger picture:

1.Kun was close to becoming too powerful for the Order to stop.

2.Kun faced a direct salvo of light-side energy from the entire known Jedi order; stated in KOTOR:CG to consist of tens of thousands, which must be closer to the 20-30k range given that SWTOR: Revan states tens of thousands of Jedi died at the hands of the Sith Triumvirate. Nevermind all the deaths in the three wars fought beforehand.

3.Kun survived the attack which was stated to be incapable of defeating him fully. He survived it to such a degree Kun prided himself on this feat from this point forward.

4.Kun's energy was spent thus he had to encyst himself within the temples he'd had built or face disillusionment.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:You tend to ignore the CONTEXT in your interpretations by and large.

You're absolutely incapable of understanding that there are sources you are unaware of. Which is ironic since you clearly went through my respect thread and couldn't even understand that.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:Luke Skywalker is also capped by statements - I posted one in this thread..

He's also canonically > DE Sheev by that point, so that's not a counter.

S_W_LeGenD wrote:Do I have to explain to you the meaning of the word DEFINITIVE, like again? SWTOR-E is the most up-to-date licensed and published reference material for the ancients in the Legends continuity (co-written by multiple authors and approved by all branches of authorities including LucasFilm). It is not an account of historians but IU-OMNISCIENT (DEFINITIVE). Your protests won't make the source invalid.

There are a dozen sources I can think of off of the top of my head that are all IU and claim to be definitive. This does NOT make them omniscient, not even in the slightest.

Now if you were bright enough you'd have noted, as DarthAnt66 has, that the SWTOR:E knows far too much for any group of historians to possibly have written this. Meaning we have to fall back on the idea that it is omniscient. Unfortunately...

USA was the sole superpower of the world not long ago but China is now ascending and American establishment is cowering.

True actually, The Left (primarily) in the US is well on its way to destroying the country.

Well that explains a lot

SnowxElf wrote:

USA was the sole superpower of the world not long ago but China is now ascending and American establishment is cowering.

True actually, The Left (primarily) in the US is well on its way to destroying the country.

No.

I was awaiting your presence BoD

Imma be blunt, why do people think Tenebrae scales from "everyone he ever wronged" dude got BTFO when that happened. I don't even think he partially scales to it, although I might need to rewatch it since I might have missed something.


That being said, Tenebrae being called the most destructive force in history is pretty open to high tier wank. Could scale him above the World razer if we take that at face value.

LadyKulvax wrote:ILS you got roflstomped by Elm, Ant and even DC. The fact you've shown your face again is a disgrace. Now leave before you die again like your sub-Exiles reborn Krayt.

Don’t forget Snowxelf

LadyKulvax wrote:I'm glad you realise this delusion.  

It is not good practice to dismiss presented evidence(s) because you risk alienating your potential allies in the process; do not do this. There is no harm in accepting a mistake or conceding - this doesn't make you less of a debater but makes you a better person in comparison to those who never learn. Nobody is infallible in his judgement all the time. Whatever you are trying to tell me - I am listening, and I will not counter you on something that is correct. There are contents which can be used to hype Exar Kun and there are contents which can be used to burst his hype bubble - your peers are never short on cards to pull in this discussion. It is important to put things in their PROPER CONTEXT and not push boundaries unnecessarily - continue to read below.

LadyKulvax wrote:Literally none of what you have stated is new to anyone because you're quoting a source from the 90s. And none of what you have said is in any way contradictory to my sources. Your sources generalise the over-all attack. But lack the details. Kun after getting hit had lost his power to it and required the temples to survive. Yes, correct.

Thank you. This is your FIRST concession and a good start  .  Now, I shall address the but part below.

LadyKulvax wrote:
But that doesn't negate the rest of the context provided in vastly more up to date sources:

1. The sources that I have highlighted are among the CORE ones for discussing Exar Kun - each covers the original Tales of the Jedi comics and also the Jedi Academy Trilogy. New contributors may expand on Exar Kun in different respects but the CORE aspects of his story will remain the same by and large.

2. You are invoking the OOU card now which is acceptable practice - you have the right to do so. However, am I not telling you to respect SWTOR sources? This practice extends both ways (valid for YOU and valid for your PEER) - this is one of the fundamental points of mine all along.

Now, I shall take a look at what you have to say below, in fairness.

LadyKulvax wrote:
I let Streen fill Kun with our resolve to unite and defeat him, but Kun's contempt for us came rolling back along the line like an echo. He had faced fleets of ships and all the known Jedi. He had slain his own master. His power was unrivaled. He had defeated our Master and beyond our resolve to fight, we had no operative plans and nothing with which to challenge him. We were snacks he would devour at his leisure, not morsels that might choke him.

Let us consider this statement in the larger context shaping it:

EXPANDED INFORMATION:

Emphasis mine. So a bunch of Luke Skywalker's students (half-trained apprentices as of this point in time) are discussing Exar Kun and it is rather obvious from their statements that they are SPOOKED by their experiences with the Sith Lord insofar because he managed to live through the onslaught of an ancient Jedi fleet, and defeated their master in a battle fought earlier. Under these circumstances, the students are on the verge of loosing hope but Corran Horn is an exception in the bunch - he is giving hope to others and telling them that they can succeed where others failed. They just have to believe in themselves. He is calling out to Streen in particular.

So what happens?



From Star Wars - D6 - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

Double-check with information in the relevant novel:

HOW IT ENDS:

Emphasis mine. Luke's students were SPOOKED and were making 'misinformed subjective judgements' but Corran was the VOICE of REASON among them and helped them think this through. Characters are in the process of LEARNING in their efforts to SOLVE a PUZZLE themselves - a common theme. For example: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t4189-a-revisit-to-the-dialogues-in-the-swtor-shadow-of-revan-expansion-set

To cap this discussion:



From Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Key takeaways:

1. Kun did not exactly TANK the WALL OF LIGHT but escaped dissolution; THE CATCH was that he lost his strength in the process.
2. Kun's shadow was now bound to the Massasi Temple where he completed his ritual (his anchor), and was now reliant on the energy of living beings to do his bidding but he could not draw this energy from across the moon akin to Tenebrae's dark persence when he was on Yavin 4; the living beings should be at close proximity to Kun's shadow for the needful which happened by chance in the Jedi Academy Trilogy. This is in SYNC with the fact that Kun's shadow could not benefit from Revan's war on Yavin 4 in any capacity.
3. Kun's shadow became very powerful on Kyp Durron's hate, and managed to defeat Luke with his support. This battle took a lot out from Kun's shadow as well.
4. A bunch of half-trained students bridged their minds (sort of) to prevent Kun's shadow from breaching the mind of either and cornered him; this activity fueled the Light side energy around them and the Force spirits of Vodo-Siosk Baas and Luke materialized by extension.
5. Two students Kirana Ti and Streen stepped forward with a Lightsaber in the hands of each, and shredded Kun's shadow with these weapons.
6. Streen blew the final shreds of Kun's shadow into the winds with a touch of Alter Environment.

The DOTS connect very well when you concentrate on the bigger picture. The sourcebooks that I have highlighted in my previous post, and also in this post, are among the CORE ones for discussing Kun - each covers the original Tales of the Jedi comics and also the Jedi Academy Trilogy, and revelations are IN SYNC with each other.

Nitpicking from among 'subjective character statements' to make a point can lead to misinterpretations which in turn do not stand up to potential scrutiny. Kun wasn't a match for the entire Jedi Order in his time in person (more on this part below) - there was no need for a world-scorching expression of power to vanquish him in a direct confrontation. Kun have never demonstrated powers to affect a fleet of starships in destructive capacity - only the Dread Masters, Tenebrae and Palpatine have demonstrated powers to this effect. Yes, Kun lifted a starship from the surface once which is very impressive feat on his part but there are more who have done the same and then there are resulting scaling chains. Kun is capped and topped by some in the lore as it continues to expand. These developments are making you uncomfortable? Kun remains among the strongest Sith to ever exist regardless - this was always the case - so why are you upset?

Do not forget Malak bandwagon as well - they have a case for capping Kun as well but I have stated before that a debate is possible in this context. Your attempts to hype Luke as of The Jedi Academy Trilogy to the benefit of your Kun wank will not do either because his prior victory over Palpatine is circumstantial (he could not defeat Palpatine all by himself and needed allies for the needful). Luke also believed that he would need allies to defeat Marka Ragnos should he return with his proper strength. Nevermind Tenebrae.

LadyKulvax wrote:

'The Exar Kun War' Timeline, Star Wars the Old Republic wrote:The Republic drove Kun back to Yavin 4, where the Dark Lord enacted a ritual, sacrificing his armies to keep his spirit alive. Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison Exar Kun's spirit in the temples on Yavin 4. From what we know, it remains there to this day.

The above proves that Kun was close to becoming too powerful for even the combined order to stop. Also that Kun prides himself on having faced the Order in combat, that wouldn't be the case if it was a total smackdown. Then better yet, it's even stated that their attack was incapable of defeating him entirely.

None of that contradicts what I have stated and shared in my previous response. The Jedi were able to defeat Kun but not entirely and this is correct because Kun escaped dissolution:

Seeing that the Jedi fleet in the skies above him was poised to destroy him, Exar Kun opted for a somewhat risky escape. Utilizing the alchemical apparatus he used to mutate the Massassi, Exar Kun divested himself of his physical body and took refuge within one of his temples, knowing that his spirit would live forever and waiting for the day when he could take his vengeance on the Jedi. - Star Wars - D20 - The Darkside Sourcebook

+

Each dark side spirit has a focal point of power that anchors it in the physical world. For example, the interred Sith Lords of Korriban use their burial sarcophagi to hold their spirits for millennia after death. Freedon Nadd clung to his tomb for countless centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to turn his successor to the dark side. Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4. - Star Wars - D20 - The Darkside Sourcebook

+



From Star Wars - D6 - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

Kun SURVIVED by extension - another way to state the obvious.

- - - -

Kun could never defeat the entirety of the Jedi Order even in the form of an unchained spirit of pure darkness. Even those Force-users who utterly dwarf Kun in strength and demonstrated powers such as Tenebrae and Abeloth will fall short in this matter:

She would be opposed down to the final breath, the last drop of blood, of nearly every Jedi in the galaxy. And in that battle, even so ancient and powerful a being as Abeloth could not stand. - Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Ascension

The Jedi Order would have found a way to undermine and destroy Kun one way or the other. Just because the Jedi decided to band together and defeat Kun on Yavin 4 and he was able to escaped dissolution in turn, doesn't suggest that there was no other way to stop him - there are possibilities - always. There are different techniques - I have information in this regard. But I am holding back for now.  

In the face of Force-users who could consume entire planets - the Jedi understood that it would be a mistake to maintain their presence in just planet where they could be wiped out in force by a single deadly being - the incident of Katarr is but a reminder. The Jedi Order maintains its presence across many planets for good reason. It takes a destructive galactic war to undermine the Jedi Order by and large. Palpatine also felt the need to do this. Understand the difference.

LadyKulvax wrote:
See, here's the issue. You think you have conflicting sources but when you reconcile them they actually compliment each other to a form a larger picture:

1.Kun was close to becoming too powerful for the Order to stop.

2.Kun faced a direct salvo of light-side energy from the entire known Jedi order; stated in KOTOR:CG to consist of tens of thousands, which must be closer to the 20-30k range given that SWTOR: Revan states tens of thousands of Jedi died at the hands of the Sith Triumvirate. Nevermind all the deaths in the three wars fought beforehand.

3.Kun survived the attack which was stated to be incapable of defeating him fully. He survived it to such a degree Kun prided himself on this feat from this point forward.

4.Kun's energy was spent thus he had to encyst himself within the temples he'd had built or face disillusionment.

Addressed above.

LadyKulvax wrote:You're absolutely incapable of understanding that there are sources you are unaware of. Which is ironic since you clearly went through my respect thread and couldn't even understand that.

Am I? You need to get a grip on yourself instead of giving far-fetched spins to 'subjective character statements' from which you tend to nitpick, and even amend, to draw FALSE conclusions from them. My sincere apologies but I have noticed this problem in your respect thread, and when I attempted to correct you on just a part of it, you became nervous and lashed out at me. Your Exar Kun respect thread is appreciate-worthy compilation and effort - credit where due - but you are mistaken if you think that somebody will not notice your "mistakes" and pinpoint them, and that your Kun-exclusive wank can be "endless." This is not the correct way forward.

You reached out to me once but it looks like you have derailed yourself - you are unable to see things beyond Kun's shadow. Heed my advice and apply breaks. There is a much better way to move forward with all of this, with mutual deliberations in the mix. I can provide you the way forward.

LadyKulvax wrote:
He's also canonically > DE Sheev by that point, so that's not a counter.

You keep saying this but do not present evidence.

I will make a case for Palpatine nevertheless. He became more powerful than ever before in times of the Dark Empire while he spent time on Byss - he was siphoning the life-force of the population of Byss to fuel his strength and abilities all along. G-Canon impression was that Anakin Skywalker could become TWICE as capable as Palpatine in OT times?, but this is no longer the case with Palpatine as in Dark Empire who is doing things that G-Canon wouldn't entertain.

"His Force skills have increased significantly in the six years since he was last seen in Return of the Jedi." - Star Wars - D6 - The Dark Empire Sourcebook

"He say so himself: "You've grown very strong in the Force since we last met… But then, so have I!" - Palpatine

Therefore, Palpatine in Dark Empire times managed to close the gap with Anakin Skywalker's implied peak to significant yet debatable extent. If Luke could become what his father was supposed to, this would be the case in FOTJ times - his implied peak. Leia was able to make it possible for Luke to fight more effectively than he could in Dark Empire times on his own. Luke disarmed Palpatine but the Jedi still needed to do something more to defeat Palpatine which was possible via Force Harmony. Therefore, this is circumstantial victory for Luke in the end. I wouldn't say that he was a non-factor to Palpatine in these times but he couldn't defeat Palpatine all on his own. This much is obvious.

Palpatine's problem in Dark Empire was that he couldn't be consistent in his abilities in FLESH due to his clones being imperfect forcing him to shift from one to next and so on. With his last clone in decline, his fight with Leia took a lot out of him and while he was able to kill two Jedi Padawans and mortally wound two more including Jedi Knight Brand, he needed to take over infant Anakin Solo more than ever. Unfortunately for him, Jedi Knight Brand stopped him in his tracks when he attempted Transfer Life on the infact. Palpatine's powers were still not on the level of... the one with many names...in the end.

LadyKulvax wrote:
There are a dozen sources I can think of off of the top of my head that are all IU and claim to be definitive. This does NOT make them omniscient, not even in the slightest.

Now if you were bright enough you'd have noted, as DarthAnt66 has, that the SWTOR:E knows far too much for any group of historians to possibly have written this. Meaning we have to fall back on the idea that it is omniscient. Unfortunately...

Good. This... is the way forward.  

Majority of the sources are advanced as an account of historians as far as I have noticed; TSWE, TOTJC, TCSWE, JSTEGTF, and SWFTCR are notable examples. I can mention more names as well.

SWTOR-E was put together by multiple authors and its contents were approved by all authoritative branches including LucasFilm and it is strongly advanced as the DEFINITIVE consultation material for the Legends continuity. This isn't to say that this publication leaves no room for debates because WE follow OOU route in practice and it is important to respect updates, but this is one of the foremost publications out there, and its findings complement as well as RETCON older publications in some aspects - historian accounts in particular (the ARCHIVES are never assumed to be complete for historians of any age). This publication will remain valid for a long time because SWTOR updates continue to complement its revelations with codex entries and cut-scenes. BioWare also seems to draw from BOS-SFTDS publication which is advanced as the compilation of original recordings of 5 noteworthy predecessors of Palpatine - lot of interesting stuff in this publication. It helped me put a lot of things in proper context as well. It gave me focus, made me stronger.

SnowxElf wrote:I was awaiting your presence BoD

I'm a typical Brit: we see another culture/view, we have to conquer it.

SnowxElf wrote:

USA was the sole superpower of the world not long ago but China is now ascending and American establishment is cowering.

True actually, The Left (primarily) in the US is well on its way to destroying the country.

Disagreed. Rednecks are much worse than SJWs.

HellfireUnit wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:

USA was the sole superpower of the world not long ago but China is now ascending and American establishment is cowering.

True actually, The Left (primarily) in the US is well on its way to destroying the country.

Disagreed. Rednecks are much worse than SJWs.

How do you define a redneck?

LeGenD, as usual, almost none of what you've said bares any relevance. I'll focus on the actual points of consequence.

1.The I, Jedi quote's external context is completely irrelevant. What matters is what the source of Exar Kun's pride is, which telepathically rebounds onto the students.

Point being Kun prides himself on tanking the combined light side energy of tens of thousands of Jedi. If he'd simply been stomped then the opposite effect would've occurred.

2.Again, you haven't contradicted anything. You've thrown around supposed limits of environmental feats and acted as if cross-media showings of environmental damage will be consistent across many authors. This is not and has never been the case. This is why we don't appeal to feat wars in general, it's an ultimately flawed means of comparison.

Unless you can provide a reason as to why the three sources I've brought up don't mean what they say. Hell, you wouldn't even be scratching the surface. The inability of the Order to permanently vanquish Kun is made even more clear when the Jedi establish an underground city immediately after this, specifically to gaurantee Kun doesn't return to full power.

Like, this isn't a rebuttal.

Again, Kun used a ritual to drain thousands of dark-side abominations and Dark Jedi and became so powerful that he was nearly too powerful for the entire known Jedi Order to defeat.

Feel free to show me where exactly Kun is capped by the power showings of Tenebrae considering Kun's own is absolutely on par with anything Tenebrae has done. And if you point to fleet destroying again, you can drop your argument right now. Because that isn't one.

^^^

1. You need to understand the difference between TANKING and ESCAPING first and foremost.

Consider this. A grenade is thrown towards a soldier but he manages to survive with his evasive maneuvers albeit with injuries. TANKING would suggest that he doesn't have to do anything and can handle the explosion.

Exar Kun "resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4" - the environment helped him. If this luxury is taken away, he would have no chance.

2. There are techniques to destroy a Force spirit. I haven't expanded on this part yet because I am choosing to respect you and the character. The No limits fallacy doesn't apply to any character whatsoever. It is logical to assume that the Jedi would have a found a way to destroy him one way or the other. They are a resourceful bunch and able to find a solution for problems which look virtually impossible to address initially - consider the case of Lord Vivicar's Plague for instance. There are so many sources to take cues from but you are not getting the memo lately.

3. Tenebrae surpassed every Sith in different aspects and it is very easy to establish that he surpassed Kun by leaps and bounds. In order to realize this, you first need to step out from the No Limits fallacy bubble that exist in your mind, respect and recognize a new set of scaling chains (SWTOR), and also consider the fact that historian ARCHIVES are never complete in any era. Dismissal attitude won't do. I do not have unlimited time to waste.

You keep using that source but it doesn't mean what you think it does. Kun became a spirit to escape Yavin IV and cross the cosmos. That's written on the original page. His plan for becoming a spirit was to be able to go rampant across space and become basically unstoppable. The Jedi sensed what Kun was doing and reacted accordingly. They bombarded the planet and Kun lost so much power in the attack that he was forced to encyst himself in the temple focal points. So this whole idea that Kun just dodged the attack isn't support in the source material: