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The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 9th 2020, 9:47 pm
Vader. He's too physically strong for Kenobi.
Underachiever599
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 9th 2020, 9:58 pm
Vader, almost no contest. He's killed far more impressive Jedi by 18 BBY.
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 9th 2020, 10:28 pm
Ma'kis'shaalas was "one of the most brutal combatants of the Jedi Order" by the Clone Wars and was also considered one of the greatest Morgukai ever trained (a culture that produced warriors that could "sometimes" be a match for Jedi knights) even before he became a Jedi. Morgukai with the Force were said to be "unstoppable" given time, and Ma'kis'shaalas joined the Jedi Order around 30 BBY, meaning he had at least 11 years (3 of constant warfare) to fulfil this potential.
Vader stomped him a month after Mustafar while massively hindering his power growth and ability to use what he already had, and when having to use the Force "to move from place to place", and while also fighting another veteran Jedi simultaneously.
Vader smacks the everliving crap out of Kenobi.
Sources for the stuff said about Ma'kis'shaalas are below:
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Vader stomped him a month after Mustafar while massively hindering his power growth and ability to use what he already had, and when having to use the Force "to move from place to place", and while also fighting another veteran Jedi simultaneously.
Vader smacks the everliving crap out of Kenobi.
Sources for the stuff said about Ma'kis'shaalas are below:
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HeartoftheForceLevel Two
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 9th 2020, 11:09 pm
Honestly Kenobi. Don't even need Lucas for this one.
NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 9th 2020, 11:21 pm
Kenobi is superior according to Lucas.
- Underachiever599
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 12:25 am
What's your argument? Vader has objectively better combat feats while vastly pre-prime, starting barely a month after he got off the table.HeartoftheForce wrote:Honestly Kenobi. Don't even need Lucas for this one.
- HeartoftheForceLevel Two
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 12:58 am
Despite all those he still lost handily to TPM Maul. The same Maul that TPM Kenobi was able to to match for longer than Qui-Gon Jinn despite being hindered by rage and Maul feeding on said rage to become more powerful. Not mention being at an environmental and nexus disadvantage also. Nevertheless Kenobi was able to destroy Maul's weapon and in auxiliary material match his TK. I can see him doing the same to Vader, overwhelming him with speed and then taking him down.Underachiever599 wrote:What's your argument? Vader has objectively better combat feats while vastly pre-prime, starting barely a month after he got off the table.HeartoftheForce wrote:Honestly Kenobi. Don't even need Lucas for this one.
SithSauceLevel One
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 4:47 am
@Heartoftheforce Are you serious? He never lost "handily" to Maul. The fight went on for a few pages and was described as an equal confrontation.
Dark Side Prophets: Intriguing... They are more evenly matched than we suspected.
And Maul vs TPM Kenobi definitely wasn't an equal confrontation. Kenobi pretty much got his ass kicked at all turns.
While Maul was able to best Vader in saber combat. Vader still managed to split his saber in half and win through superior power which the prophets admitted. So really Vader's bout with Maul proves he is above TPM Kenobi more than anything
Dark Side Prophets: Intriguing... They are more evenly matched than we suspected.
And Maul vs TPM Kenobi definitely wasn't an equal confrontation. Kenobi pretty much got his ass kicked at all turns.
While Maul was able to best Vader in saber combat. Vader still managed to split his saber in half and win through superior power which the prophets admitted. So really Vader's bout with Maul proves he is above TPM Kenobi more than anything
Latham2000Level Three
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 5:05 am
Kenobi's rage is what allowed him to slice Maul's weapon in half, and it is stated by two sources to have caught Maul off guard, hence why he matched him blow for blow, because Maul's instincts and tactics were accustomed to the tempo of a much slower and less aggressive Kenobi, so he was mentally unprepared for Kenobi's rage because he didn't know what to expect from him, whereas Kenobi knew what to expect from Maul. And even then Maul still adjusted and it was stated that Kenobi's rage i.e. "frantic determination" fuelled him, meaning that he's stronger than standard TPM Kenobi, not weaker, and the nexus would've boosted Kenobi even further, and even then Maul was stated to be stronger and more powerful than the rage fuelled Kenobi, who for all intents and purposes experienced a Force LSD in the form of a Dark Side boost. Kenobi's rage only hindered him in the context that it left him vulnerable to getting Force pushed in into the shaft, but even then Maul didn't have to Force push him, in TPM comic he opts to kicking Kenobi down the shaft, in the novel all he pummels him down the shaft just by exchanging blows with him, so Force pushing him wasn't the only viable option that Maul had. TPM Kenobi and TPM Maul throwing objects at each other for a short while in pre-movie depictions isn't a TK stalemate because we don't know how many objects they threw at each other, we don't know the size of the objects they threw at each other, we don't know what proximity they had when throwing objects at each other and we also don't know how much of their Force reserves they used.
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 10:39 am
Lmao, somebody still thinks ressurection is just 100% useable.
If you go for the intent based argument with res. it's still just an argument, but everyone else disagrees with the premise of it being canon.
...and there's that little thing the prophets say about Vader potentially having the power to destroy the prophets and Maul at once with the force but it would be too "dishonorable" and would displease his master so he opts for Sabers
If you go for the intent based argument with res. it's still just an argument, but everyone else disagrees with the premise of it being canon.
...and there's that little thing the prophets say about Vader potentially having the power to destroy the prophets and Maul at once with the force but it would be too "dishonorable" and would displease his master so he opts for Sabers
The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 11:48 am
> Korriban wrote:Lmao, somebody still thinks ressurection is just 100% useable.
If you go for the intent based argument with res. it's still just an argument, but everyone else disagrees with the premise of it being canon.
...and there's that little thing the prophets say about Vader potentially having the power to destroy the prophets and Maul at once with the force but it would be too "dishonorable" and would displease his master so he opts for Sabers
- SithSauceLevel One
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 11:59 am
Exactly the Resurrection argument is practically useless if you want to debate TPM Kenobi is>ANH Vader, as it does more to favor Vader
Ziggy
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 1:57 pm
Vader gave Resurrection Maul a TPM Kenobi-like match - getting slapped around and winning via upset.
I guess the prophets have a loose understanding of what it means to be evenly matched and would spectate the duel of fates in a similar vein.
Either that or Vader is above TPM and below AOTC.
I guess the prophets have a loose understanding of what it means to be evenly matched and would spectate the duel of fates in a similar vein.
Either that or Vader is above TPM and below AOTC.
O-Siri
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 2:19 pm
TPM Kenobi. I can see 19 -17 BBY Vader winning maybe even TFU Vader but ANH - RotJ Vader is firmly placed below Jinn, Kenobi, and Maul. Everything hastily trained Luke can do seasoned TPM Kenobi can do better by basic logic.
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 2:33 pm
O-Siri wrote:TPM Kenobi. I can see 19 -17 BBY Vader winning maybe even TFU Vader but ANH - RotJ Vader is firmly placed below Jinn, Kenobi, and Maul. Everything hastily trained Luke can do seasoned TPM Kenobi can do better by basic logic.
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 2:41 pm
Vader beat Maul in a similar fashion as TPM Kenobi yeah... Similar, but not precisely the same. TPM Kenobi used a surprise attack against a gloating Maul who was too confused to realize what Kenobi was doing because of arrogance. Vader however, stabbed himself whilst stabbing Maul, who was trying to deliver the final blow.
- O-Siri
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 2:59 pm
Vader was firing on all cylinders during the Purge. That imo was his true peak in the suit. By the time of the OT era for whatever reason, be it age, dark side degradation, depression, hubris, complacently, lack of motivation, stagnation, ect he isn't as good as he was 20 years prior.The lord of hunger wrote:O-Siri wrote:TPM Kenobi. I can see 19 -17 BBY Vader winning maybe even TFU Vader but ANH - RotJ Vader is firmly placed below Jinn, Kenobi, and Maul. Everything hastily trained Luke can do seasoned TPM Kenobi can do better by basic logic.
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 3:15 pm
O-Siri wrote:Vader was firing on all cylinders during the Purge. That imo was his true peak in the suit. By the time of the OT era for whatever reason, be it age, dark side degradation, depression, hubris, complacently, lack of motivation, stagnation, ect he isn't as good as he was 20 years prior.The lord of hunger wrote:O-Siri wrote:TPM Kenobi. I can see 19 -17 BBY Vader winning maybe even TFU Vader but ANH - RotJ Vader is firmly placed below Jinn, Kenobi, and Maul. Everything hastily trained Luke can do seasoned TPM Kenobi can do better by basic logic.
Dark Side degradation would hardly be a factor because he's more machine than man, most of his body is made out of incredibly advanced and powerful cybernetics. Vader has always had depression, in fact Fightsaber says that as of ESB he has largely freed himself from pain, so his depression thereby has lessened as of the OT. Hubris is not something that would've applied to specific points in his career because he's a Dark Sider, I don't know what your basis is for OT Vader having hubris, but purge Vader lacking that hubris. I don't know what your basis is for him lacking motivation and being stagnant comes from either, Vader had little to know competition during ANH, and by ESB he was zealous enough to think about trying to turn his son to the Dark Side to overthrow Sheev, in this match up he'd be incredibly motivated to win because he's fighting Kenobi, the mere sight of any version of Kenobi would fuel Vader's blood lust.
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 3:25 pm
that was not his true peak in the slightest the lore indicates that it was at the time of rotj where he feel more powerful than ever before and where did you literally take the idea that he isnt as good as 20 years prior? the guy was constantly sharpening his skills with different opponents and such.O-Siri wrote:Vader was firing on all cylinders during the Purge. That imo was his true peak in the suit. By the time of the OT era for whatever reason, be it age, dark side degradation, depression, hubris, complacently, lack of motivation, stagnation, ect he isn't as good as he was 20 years prior.The lord of hunger wrote:O-Siri wrote:TPM Kenobi. I can see 19 -17 BBY Vader winning maybe even TFU Vader but ANH - RotJ Vader is firmly placed below Jinn, Kenobi, and Maul. Everything hastily trained Luke can do seasoned TPM Kenobi can do better by basic logic.
- Latham2000Level Three
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 3:39 pm
On topic, Vader absolutely crushes the life out of Kenobi if he doesn't fool around with him, he's that much more powerful that he can Force choke him and Kenobi isn't nearly powerful enough to resist a choke hold from Vader, but it's possible he will prolong the fight for his own sadistic enjoyment. Vader is stronger, tougher, more resilient, more skilled, more unorthodox and more versatile. Kenobi is a faster paced and more energetic duelist, plus he's also more agile and athletic, but Vader has plenty of experience dealing with acrobatic fighters, and he obviously retains his familarity with Kenobi's skill set, including his personalised version of Ataru, thanks to having sparring matches with him dating all the way back to his padawan years, so he'll know what to expect from TPM Kenobi. However, I think Kenobi will be a nuisance in duelling only, but Vader is so strong Kenobi will burn out in 30 seconds and die.
- O-Siri
Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi
April 10th 2020, 3:41 pm
@The lord of hunger
The RotJ novel quote is outdated. Lucas made clear OT Vader and Luke isn't as good as Jinn, TPM Kenobi, or Maul who represent the prime of the Jedi, do to Vader along with ANH Kenobi and Luke being old and washed-up and inexperienced.
Vader's feats and overall performance level pre-OT is just simply better, that in addition to Lucas's statements is where I get the impression a younger more driven Vader is superior to older resigned to serve Vader. So in essence it's a combination of creator statements, feats, and speculation based on logic. All just my opinion of course.
The RotJ novel quote is outdated. Lucas made clear OT Vader and Luke isn't as good as Jinn, TPM Kenobi, or Maul who represent the prime of the Jedi, do to Vader along with ANH Kenobi and Luke being old and washed-up and inexperienced.
Vader's feats and overall performance level pre-OT is just simply better, that in addition to Lucas's statements is where I get the impression a younger more driven Vader is superior to older resigned to serve Vader. So in essence it's a combination of creator statements, feats, and speculation based on logic. All just my opinion of course.
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