ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

"You could destroy us all with the Force" isn't a direct quotation - the actual quote is just them saying Vader could destroy them all (the Force is never mentioned), but Sidious would think less of him. Why would Sidious think less of Vader for ripping Maul to shreds with the Force? "Congratulations, you destroyed him and proved yourself stronger, but it doesn't count because you used the Force." That seems very in character for Sidious to say... not.

Moreover, the fight was set up to determine who is the stronger apprentice: Vader or Maul, yet it is apparently limited to sabers only? That seems highly suspect.

Ladies and Gentlemen! Boys and Girls! Droids and Jawas! Prepare yourselves for the battle of the century! In this corner, weighing in at 220 pounds, the terror from Tatooine, the'Dark Lord of the Sith, the former Anakin Skywalker-Darth Vader! And in this corner, weighing in at 175 pounds, a killer of Jedi, the 'NabooAnnihilator', Darth Sidious' #1 apprentice-Darth Maul!

Easy. Have him knuckle up against Darth Vader. Maul is vicious, physical, and primal. Vader is focused and calculating… but still has the faintest trace of Humanity. Both have succumbed to the dark side of the Force. Both are ambitious. But Sith law says there's only room for one.

I'd posit another explanation - that being that Maul's life is directly tied to the prophets (they die, he dies), as they created him (assuming he functions like a traditional doppelganger).

That makes far more sense of the statement without jumping to absurd conclusions like Vader being able to destroy Maul with the Force, yet not doing so for basically the whole duel.

 But Sith law says there's only room for one.

Make sure you're here on September 12th, 2001 for the answer to the question on everyone's lips: "Who's tougher? Vader or Maul?" Let the BATTLE begin!

Uprooting from Los Angeles to San Francisco was an easy choice for Filoni and his wife, Anne, a writer and teacher. For the next eight years, he worked side by side with Lucas, telling the battlefield stories of Anakin Skywalker before his transformation into Darth Vader, when he was fighting alongside Obi-Wan Kenobi and nurturing his own Padawan learner, the alien Ahsoka Tano, a young girl with distinctive white and blue “head tails” instead of hair, who was just as defiant and clever as her master. The metaphor couldn’t be more apt. Filoni was persuasive—he could push—and the trust he earned allowed him to translate Lucas’s vision in ways that strengthened them both.

“One day, George said, ‘Do you know why I enjoy working with you?’ And I said, ‘No, I have no idea,’ ” Filoni recalled. “He said, ‘Well, you listen to me.’ ” Filoni lets that sink in. “A lot of people think you need to come and impress someone. They think, I’m going to show you or do better. They don’t always think you impress somebody by listening.”

Lucas brought up the same point when VANITY FAIR asked him about Filoni. “I immediately found him to be very open-minded and a great listener, which are qualities I admire because it opens a person up to new experiences,” he said. Lucas didn’t want to take as much credit for Filoni’s success as Filoni was willing to give him: “I was just giving him advice along the way.” But Lucas guided Filoni to make the series more cinematic, and they shaped each story arc together. The advice he’d give Filoni going forward? “To stay open-minded and realize that there’s still a lot to learn. There’s always something to learn.”

Meatpants wrote:Even if the comic can be used, it still gets one-shot by George Lucas, so it doesn’t matter.

Filoni spoke to IndieWire, confirming that although the series has evolved since George Lucas helmed the franchise, Filoni still tries to keep his Star Wars projects in line with Lucas' original vision."We still talk and if I'm stuck I will bug George for ideas, because he is the canon," He said. Filoni continued, "He created it and I respect that. One of my many jobs and purposes is to keep things as intact as to what George laid down as possible. It is for kids -- George would always say that over the years -- but the beauty is that everyone can watch and enjoy it if you get the show right."

SithSauce wrote:@BOD Do you have the Filoni Vader>Maul quote?

SithSauce wrote:@BOD Do you have the Filoni Vader>Maul quote?

Latham2000 wrote:Filoni probably knows Lucas better than Gillard tbh.

SithSauce wrote:@0-Siri It's highly implausible that Ben would just allow himself to degrade so badly to the point where he is massively below his TPM incarnation when he is supposed to be looking out for Luke

Who says he let himself go? Between the natural aging process, the premature aging caused by Tatooines harsh climate, ring rust, and all the injuries he accumulated in the Clone Wars it’s only natural he took a massive step backwards.

TPM Kenobi is underrated. The guy is 25, he’s fully developed, older and more mature than TPM Maul and RotS Anakin. People act like he’s just a kid who’s barely sprouted wings when really he was probably as good as an offensive duelist as he got. As Jinn says there was very little he could still learn from him. He might even be better than AOTC Kenobi in terms of offense. 

Speculation aside Lucas who directed both movies and created both iterations of the character outright says Ben is inferior to TPM Kenobi.

BoD wrote:

Who says he let himself go? Between the natural aging process, the premature aging caused by Tatooines harsh climate, ring rust, and all the injuries he accumulated in the Clone Wars it’s only natural he took a massive step backwards.

Please prove that these made him drop so much that he's suddenly solidly below TPM Kenobi,
@O-Siri: Simple Lucas says TPM Kenobi is a real Jedi in his prime while Ben is an old man who isn’t a real Jedi.

when we have confirmatio that Kenobi kept up his Jedi training,
did his best to protect Luke (meaning he'd stay in shape as best he could) and who underwent considerable spiritual training during this period

None of that factually prevents decay born from aging. Lots of over the hillers train just as hard but can’t go to the well like they used to. Your  speculation is shot down by both Lucas’s statement and the narrative “I’m getting too old for this sort of thing”. 


Also, please provide sources for how any injuries Kenobi suffered in the Clone Wars would have aged him? 
all you need to do is look at the real world for examples. It’s called wear and tear. The human body isn’t designed for punishment. Injuries, especially grievous injuries and sustained punishment do stack and shortened your prime.

TPM Kenobi is underrated. The guy is 25, he’s fully developed, older and more mature than TPM Maul and RotS Anakin. People act like he’s just a kid who’s barely sprouted wings when really he was probably as good as an offensive duelist as he got. As Jinn says there was very little he could still learn from him. He might even be better than AOTC Kenobi in terms of offense. 

Better than an AOTC Kenobi with 10 years of power, skill and emotional growth? Yeah, I'm calling bull on that.
Its not implausible for Kenobi to have peaked as an Ataru duelist in TPM. Kenobi changed his style and spent the intervening 10 years learning Soresu from the bottom up making him something of a late bloomer.  He’s learning new skills not enhancing his old ones. If it wasn’t for his natural affinity for Soresu he probably would have already peaked overall as a combatant.

Also, please explain how being more mature than TPM Maul (which is honestly not even true) and ROTS Anakin (who's a manchild with the powers of a god) means anything?

Because he’s completed the most important stages of his development both biologically and emotionally. His growth rate after that is going to plateau naturally now that he’s more settled in life unlike someone still going through his formative years like AotC Anakin or ESB and RotJ Luke.

Speculation aside Lucas who directed both movies and created both iterations of the character outright says Ben is inferior to TPM Kenobi.

He says he's not as fast nor as energetic.
And the reason for that being is that Ben is old and past prime.  Not a real jedi.

By that logic, I assume you have Mace and Sidious - whose fight was very slow by comparison - capped below TPM Kenobi because they're not faster, more energetic or more acrobatic.
No because Lucas doesn’t feel the need for an in universe explanation for the choreography. He’s made it clear only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious. 

O-Siri wrote:1. No the reason Vader and Ben aren’t real Jedi is because they are old past prime and half droid. It’s not speculation it’s what he said. It’s not a stylistic preference as you guys are trying to make it out.

George Lucas: The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.

Source -- “All Films Are Personal”: An Oral History of Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace

Maul IS that much better than Vader by feats also. He dominated Vader. Outmaneuvered him out hustled him and plain outfought him. He pierced his guard multiple times without receiving anything back in return.

"He wore down Qui-Gon's defenses and dispatched the Jedi Master with a quick jab to the chest. The act enraged Obi-Wan, who attacked Darth Maul in a rush. Though Obi-Wan's heated assault cut through the Sith Lord's double-ended lightsaber handle, it left him vulnerable to a sudden counterattack." -- Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

Evidence Filini’s opinion of Maul and Vader is derivative of Lucas and not his own? It’s impossible to prove. But I don’t have to prove a negative because I have direct quotes from Lucas which is superior to speculation without evidence.

Dave Filoni: I've shown him Rebels, he's seen it, and he knows that I followed the lessons I was taught as a good Jedi I should, but I'm expanding certain things that I wanted to do, but nothing I feel is out of port with what he would have done, every decision I made on Clone Wars I did, any interview I did, I said "Is this something I would say or do if George was here in the room?" because I so greatly respect that it's his universe and even to this day as I go forward doing things I always ask myself is that something he'd really want? You know the fans want all kinds of things, you can't get caught up in that I'll tell you why: It's because Star Wars is so strong after so many years and people love so many different aspects of it you have to be careful what you're serving so you have to always serve the story of Star Wars and characters of Star Wars and I would say for the Prequel kids who love their Prequel movies they're very hopeful now about all the things they love about it and I love them too and they get a lot of flak, the Prequels, whatever I don't care. There's some of the most exciting moments in those films and I've always been a big supporter of them and I'm still you know, I treat Rebels the same way I did Clone Wars which is if it's something I bring it in. So there's still stuff from the EU, what was called the EU is now called Legends that appears in Rebels from

2.At least 18. The statement regarding his lack of battle hardening is factually false to say the least. Surprise the reality of 1999 with next to no information on the PT is different than the one of today’s.

3. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are. Lucas certainly didn’t sound like he held a high opinion of the three’s fighting prowess.

4. Its still an enormous advantage especially with nothing to counterbalance experience. With Maul all the advantages except  experience were skewed in his favor. It’s the opposite with Kenobi and Luke.

Define real Jedi? According to Lucas someone who isn’t old crippled half machine half droid or young boys who learned from theses old people.

5.Ever heard of the saying “got old overnight”? A lot can change in a year. I’ve seen people look just as good as ever in one fight then they look like **** in the very next.

Maybe it doesn’t make sense but it’s how he is portrayed consistently in the OT era which is why Vader always needs an excuse for low showings, he’s always “massively” pre-prime, hindered, conflicted, ptsd, holding back, etc. His mythical absolute peak only seems to exist in an inaccessible vault never allowed to appear in the source material in full.

6. Ben retaining some of his old skills doesn’t negate the fact that he is, as per Lucas, a washed up old man who is “getting too old for this sort of thing” next to his TPM self. Yeah RotS Kenobi is one level above TPM Kenobi. He’s also miles superior to Ben who’s a walking corpse by comparison.

freethedevil wrote:Interesting. Still, wouldn't it be retconned by TCW? TCW was part of the old eu, no?

Regardless, for all using the fight, this still applies:

Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.

Fodder still gets his neck snapped 

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:Interesting. Still, wouldn't it be retconned by TCW? TCW was part of the old eu, no?

Regardless, for all using the fight, this still applies:

Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.

Fodder still gets his neck snapped 

Sorry for the late reply. No, not really. I don't know what you mean by old EU, if you mean Legends continuity, yes because TCW S1-S5. it's pre-2014 tie in material and SoD comics fall under that continuity because it was T canon and C canon. The only thing that TCW has retconned is the premise that Maul died in TPM, Resurrection's depiction of how these versions of Maul and Vader compare hasn't been retconned