Suspect Insight Forums

Go down
Latham2000
Latham2000

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 11:50 am
Round 1: ANH Vader.
Round 2: ESB Vader.
Round 3: RotJ Vader.

Does he beat all versions of the old man in the robot suit?
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 11:52 am
Vader definitely takes at least two and three.
Greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 11:57 am
Kenobi sweeps. GL made it clear someone from the prime of the Jedi and a half droid aren’t on the same level.
Word Salad
Word Salad
Level Two
Level Two

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:11 pm
Vader dies. The forum must accept the truth to the GEROGE LUCAS statement that he is sub-TPM Kenobi.

Spoiler:
There isn't any truth in that statement. Vader sweeps all rounds.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level One
Level One

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:16 pm
I disagree. The Lucas quote does not imply Vader is below Kenobi. As if we are to consider feats, Vader winds ll three rounds. I can only see Kenobi putting up a moderate fight against Vader.
O-Siri
O-Siri

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:29 pm
Kenobi. Fact is all of Vader's showings ANH-RotJ are sub-TPM Kenobi. Lucas's statement is consistent with OT Vader's showings. People argue his pre-OT feats and say he grew rapidly. I say Suit-Vader was at his peak in his mid-twenties and went downhill from there. Who says everyone grows with age? Many prizefighters lose their skills and desire when they reach their mid-forties and struggle with journeymen and over-the-hillers, they would have easily crushed in their prime, which is basicly what Vader was doing; struggling with raw and inexperienced Luke and old past it Obi-Wan.
SithSauce
SithSauce

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:38 pm
Vader stomps all 3


Last edited by SithSauce on October 10th 2019, 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Four
Level Four

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:44 pm
@O-Siri wrote:Kenobi. Fact is all of Vader's showings ANH-RotJ are sub-TPM Kenobi. Lucas's statement is consistent with OT Vader's showings. People argue his pre-OT feats and say he grew rapidly. I say Suit-Vader was at his peak in his mid-twenties and went downhill from there. Who says everyone grows with age? Many prizefighters lose their skills and desire when they reach their mid-forties and struggle with journeymen and over-the-hillers, they would have easily crushed in their prime, which is basicly what Vader was doing; struggling with raw and inexperienced Luke and old past it Obi-Wan.

We have quotes stating Vader grew though rendering your point irrelevant.

OT-Vader.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:45 pm
@O-Siri
You're conflating real life fighters and force users in star wars. Force users don't atrophy as they age to the extent people in real life do.
dark_globe
dark_globe

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:47 pm
vader sweeps .
their fight would look much like ESB luke vs vader .
kenobi could make some moves to impress vader but he is vastly inferior in force powers and he is below vader in sabers as well .

make this RoTS kenobi and we have a fight .
O-Siri
O-Siri

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:49 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
@O-Siri wrote:Kenobi. Fact is all of Vader's showings ANH-RotJ are sub-TPM Kenobi. Lucas's statement is consistent with OT Vader's showings. People argue his pre-OT feats and say he grew rapidly. I say Suit-Vader was at his peak in his mid-twenties and went downhill from there. Who says everyone grows with age? Many prizefighters lose their skills and desire when they reach their mid-forties and struggle with journeymen and over-the-hillers, they would have easily crushed in their prime, which is basicly what Vader was doing; struggling with raw and inexperienced Luke and old past it Obi-Wan.

We have quotes stating Vader grew though rendering your point irrelevant.

OT-Vader.
Feats and showings tell the bigger picture. Lucas quotes > secondary sourcebook quotes, particularly when his quotes are actually back up by feats, which they are.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Four
Level Four

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:55 pm
Feats and showings do jack to reach the notion that you're concluding.
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 12:56 pm
@Greysentinel365 wrote:Kenobi sweeps. GL made it clear someone from the prime of the Jedi and a half droid aren’t on the same level.

He said "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi." If TPM is Kenobi's prime, fair enough, but I think most evidence would point to the idea it isn't. Ergo, as he isn't a Jedi in his prime, he isn't necessarily better than Vader. This makes sense as he lost to Darth Maul, who was pressed by Qui-Gon, who isn't a real Jedi as he is older than anyone in the OT. Obi-Wan also struggled with TCW Maul and Grievous, both of whom are "half-droid, half-men" like Vader, so it's likely he didn't surpass Vader until RotS - although even then it's unlikely as he has difficulties with Dooku, an old man, and Anakin, a young boy. It may be Obi-Wan's prime occurred off-screen.

As for this fight, I'm going with Vader myself.
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 1:01 pm
@O-Siri wrote:Kenobi. Fact is all of Vader's showings ANH-RotJ are sub-TPM Kenobi. Lucas's statement is consistent with OT Vader's showings. People argue his pre-OT feats and say he grew rapidly. I say Suit-Vader was at his peak in his mid-twenties and went downhill from there. Who says everyone grows with age? Many prizefighters lose their skills and desire when they reach their mid-forties and struggle with journeymen and over-the-hillers, they would have easily crushed in their prime, which is basicly what Vader was doing; struggling with raw and inexperienced Luke and old past it Obi-Wan.

TPM Obi-Wan got fucked by Maul who was pressured by Qui-Gon who is an old man and not a real Jedi by that standard (Maul is also a young boy in TPM as he is younger than Luke was in RotJ, and in TCW he is a cyborg like Vader). ANH Vader on the other hand was stalemating an old man in Ben and then grew a lot from there.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Level One
Level One

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 1:03 pm
Let's not be silly.

Vader sweeps.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 1:04 pm
I think its fairly obvious Lucas is only referring to the physical primes of the characters. So while RotS Kenobi may not be at his phyiscal peak, his growth in the force makes him more powerful than he was in say TPM
O-Siri
O-Siri

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 1:06 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:@O-Siri
You're conflating real life fighters and force users in star wars. Force users don't atrophy as they age to the extent people in real life do.
I think the biggest inhibitor to OT Vader is his lack of motivation. In the early stages of the Purge he was active in hunting Jedi and hard at work in trying to reawaken his potential. In DLRODV it seemed that there was a chance he could still succeed Sidious, even despite his injuries and loss of potential. But by the time of the OT is was clear to both that he could never aspire to be Sidious's successor. The hard facts could have dampened his desire to improve and slowly regress, much like someone stuck in a dead-end job. As Lucas stated, part of the tragedy and the irony is that he never even became an all-powerful villain, instead, he was something of a flunky.
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 1:18 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:I think its fairly obvious Lucas is only referring to the physical primes of the characters. So while RotS Kenobi may not be at his phyiscal peak, his growth in the force makes him more powerful than he was in say TPM

How is that fairly obvious?
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 1:22 pm
Since Lucas is bringing up physical factors like age. Someone's physical attributes wax and wane with age, someone's connection to the force almost never declines with age.
I'd also like to point out the ramifications of adhering to the interpretation that Lucas was referring to overall primes being concurrent with one's physical peak. That Jedi Dooku is>Sith Dooku, TPM  Sidious>RotJ Sidious, DE Luke>FotJ Luke.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Level One
Level One

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 1:34 pm
Not interested in speculation of decline.
O-Siri
O-Siri

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 2:41 pm
@Azronger wrote:
@O-Siri wrote:Kenobi. Fact is all of Vader's showings ANH-RotJ are sub-TPM Kenobi. Lucas's statement is consistent with OT Vader's showings. People argue his pre-OT feats and say he grew rapidly. I say Suit-Vader was at his peak in his mid-twenties and went downhill from there. Who says everyone grows with age? Many prizefighters lose their skills and desire when they reach their mid-forties and struggle with journeymen and over-the-hillers, they would have easily crushed in their prime, which is basicly what Vader was doing; struggling with raw and inexperienced Luke and old past it Obi-Wan.

TPM Obi-Wan got fucked by Maul who was pressured by Qui-Gon who is an old man and not a real Jedi by that standard (Maul is also a young boy in TPM as he is younger than Luke was in RotJ, and in TCW he is a cyborg like Vader). ANH Vader on the other hand was stalemating an old man in Ben and then grew a lot from there.


You can pick at Lucas's wording, but the context behind his statement is clear and it's back up by performances. It's not a case of a random Lucas quote taking precedence over EU feats which by itself is backward logic, it's a case of Lucas's intent back up by feats and performances in this particular era. It's the big picture that counts not random quotes.

 Jinn is a bit past-prime but still top-tier as he kept himself in great condition and remained active, unlike Kenobi who wasted away in the desert and was prematurely aged by Tatooine's harsh climate. Maul and TPM Kenobi are young but trained from a young age and well seasoned. Luke, by contrast, started his training late and went to Force cram school for a couple of months.

And Vader wasn't just a cyborg he was crippled, unlike Maul who was restored to his former power through Talzin's magicks.
Ziggy
Ziggy

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 4:24 pm
I do see Vader winning this fight, but not easily. 

Harder than ESB Luke, however, but easier than ROTJ Luke. 

AOTC Kenobi is where Vader stops.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Four
Level Four

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 4:28 pm
So, Kilius believes his speculation, which is nothing more than a convoluted attempt at reconciliation between sources that don't even contradict can overrule the primary material? Good shit.
dark_globe
dark_globe

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 4:49 pm
@Ziggy wrote:I do see Vader winning this fight, but not easily. 

Harder than ESB Luke, however, but easier than ROTJ Luke. 

AOTC Kenobi is where Vader stops.

sure he would stop at someone who was affraid to face dooku and got utterly destroyed by him 1v1 in AoTC .
RoTJ vader would give dooku a great fight unlike AoTC obi wan .

so care to provide some actual feats for AoTC kenobi suggesting he could beat ESB or RoTJ vader ?
O-Siri
O-Siri

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

on October 10th 2019, 5:25 pm
So, Kilius believes his speculation,

My speculation that Vader declined as of OT is supported by G-Canon quotes and feats. 


which is nothing more than a convoluted attempt at reconciliation between sources that don't even contradict
18 BBY Vader is faster than 18 BBY Kenobi who is much closer to his RotS prime than ANH Kenobi who is only marginally inferior to ANH Vader. If you can't see the disparity between the two Version then I don't know what to say. 


can overrule the primary material?
The movies, statements from Ben saying he's "too old for this sort of thing", quotes from Lucas, Death Star novel, Shadows of the Empire, aren't primary material? Can you name one feat in the OT era that's on par with Purge Vader? 
Sponsored content

TPM Kenobi vs Vader Empty Re: TPM Kenobi vs Vader

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum