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Latham2000
Latham2000

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 19th 2019, 7:20 am
BoRotS Obi-Wan duels suited Vader in wherever his prime is supposed to be.


  • Canon and Legends feats allowed. Whichever one is stronger takes precedence.


  • Vader has his knowledge of Obi-Wan’s fighting style, technique and tactics.


  • No CIS, arrogance, high ground, BFR etc. allowed.


  • No offensive Force powers allowed, including electronic manipulation.


  • Fight takes place in Palpatine’s office.


  • No amps.


Last edited by Latham2000 on October 19th 2019, 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total
dark_globe
dark_globe

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 19th 2019, 7:56 am
KF vader wins (if he is not hindered and there is no high ground) ,
RoTJ vader might have a shot .
any other version of vader loses .
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 19th 2019, 8:15 am
KFV: Wins.
ANH: Loses in a good fight.
ESB: Not sure, leaning Kenobi.
ROTJ: Wins, though Obi-Wan's agility and speed might clinch it for the Jedi.
Word Salad
Word Salad
Level Two
Level Two

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 19th 2019, 9:00 am
KF Vader wins. Any suited version loses.
Latham2000
Latham2000

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 19th 2019, 9:34 am
Forgot to this this is suited Vader.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 19th 2019, 10:05 am
Suited Vader loses in sabers. If it was Force, I think he’d possibly have a chance.
SithSauce
SithSauce

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 19th 2019, 10:20 am
Vader loses in a duel, wins in force
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 19th 2019, 3:18 pm
Vader's best feats tend to be Force-related, not saber-based. I'd give this to Kenobi, solidly. Now, if Vader could use the Force here, it'd be his game with little difficulty.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 20th 2019, 2:42 am
Seriously, what evidence is there for Suited Vader being considerably above Kenobi in the force?

OT: Kenobi with moderate difficulty.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 20th 2019, 3:07 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Seriously, what evidence is there for Suited Vader being considerably above Kenobi in the force?

OT: Kenobi with moderate difficulty.
OP said Canon feats are allowed.

This gives Vader casual AT-ST chucking, AT-AT crushing, repelling the crushing force of being hurled to the bottom of the Mon Calamari ocean, shielding himself from a tidal wave of lava, and tons of other super impressive TK feats that are all magnitudes more impressive than any Force feat Kenobi has. And I'm only touching on a handful of the comics here. Canon Suited Vader>>>>RotS Kenobi, Canon or Legends. Kenobi has just never really been depicted as a heavyweight when it comes to his use of the Force, outside of augmentation.

All that said, I reiterate, Kenobi wins this match up. Removing Vader's ability to use the Force easily swings this battle in Kenobi's favor.
KingofBlades
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on October 20th 2019, 3:35 am
I won't argue canon Vader since I don't know much about Disney canon but in terms of legends Vader is below Ben Kenobi in the force as of ESB per Lucas. So unless you can prove Vader somehow went from sub kenobi to considerably above him in the span of a few months, Vader's feats don't prove anything.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 20th 2019, 4:10 am
@KingofBlades wrote:I won't argue canon Vader since I don't know much about Disney canon but in terms of legends Vader is below Ben Kenobi in the force as of ESB per Lucas. So unless you can prove Vader somehow went from sub kenobi to considerably above him in the span of a few months, Vader's feats don't prove anything.
Again, the OP said canon is available. Even if Legends Vader is below Ben Kenobi per a hypothetical Lucas quote (Even Lucas didn't have solid numbers there, and was just attempting to explain away a minor plot hole in the quote), none of this matters. The OP stipulates that we should use whichever version of the character is stronger. Canon Vader is considerably more powerful than Legends Vader, so Ben's superiority to Legends Vader is not relevant to the discussion.

If you don't know much about Disney Canon, and Canon Vader, I can give you a quick run-down of some of Vader's insane Canon feats. 
He casually lifts and throws an AT-ST into lava at the end of Castle Vader.
He casually lifted two AT-DPs dropped on top of him in Rebels.
He's briefly pinned Palpatine in place with a Force wave (there's some debate over this feat, but it's objectively above anything he could do in Legends, as the RotS novel explicitly tells us that Vader couldn't touch Sidious with the Force.)
He's halted the explosion of a Grenade and held the explosion in place long enough for a pair of Clone Troopers to have a rather wordy conversation, and then simultaneously choked out both Clone Troopers while holding the explosion at bay.
He's parted the water of a massive dam when Infil'a opened the sluice gates in an attempt to drown him. He's also twice Force choked Infil'a, and casually dropped the Jedi Master with a ton of telekinetically hurled stones. (Though this may be considered an anti-feat for Infil'a, I suppose.)
He's casually crushed part of the structure of a massive dam, leading to the destruction of an entire city.
He's easily defeated the Grand Inquisitor, who has proven himself to be a Jedi Council-level combatant when he beat Jocasta Nu (who once sat on the Jedi Council).
He was thrown to the bottom of the Mon Calamari ocean (we see his feet touch ocean floor, and we know the ocean was deep enough for several Mon Calamari cruisers to stand on end beneath its surface), and used the Force to shield himself from the crushing water pressure. By my calculations, he repelled a bare minimum of over 4,200 tons of water pressure (based on water pressure pounds per square inch, at a depth of at least 1,500 meters [length of an MC80], factoring in Vader's rough surface area). For what it's worth, an AT-ST is only about 13 tons. An AT-AT should only be a couple hundred tons, based off real world equipment of a similar size.
While buried beneath the Mon Calamari ocean, he also beast tricked a giant squid, at the same time he was repelling the immense water pressure.
He's both Force pushed and Force choked Eeth Koth, who was stated to be stronger during his fight against Vader than he'd ever been as a Jedi Council member.
He's casually dominated two Inquisitors at the same time with TK, manipulating their bodies to force them to stab each other.
He's been thrown under a tidal wave of lava deep enough to fully submerge an AT-AT, and repelled the lava in a similar fashion to how he repelled the ocean. At the same time, he also pulled the head of the AT-AT toward himself through the lava, to give him something to jump off.
He crushed the restored Sith Lord, Momin to death with a stone column. 
He's moved his body with TK after having it shut off by the man who designed the suit. 

And these are just most of the feats I recall from the Darth Vader comics. I'm planning on re-reading Lords of the Sith, Tarkin, and Thrawn Alliances soon to get a more complete list of feats for Vader. But from what I recall, Lords of the Sith has a quote confirming Suit Vader>Anakin, which by default means Suit Vader>Obi-Wan, who has repeatedly admitted that Anakin has surpassed him. 

Oh, and lastly, From A Certain Point of View has a story from Ben's perspective as he fights Vader. And the story makes it abundantly clear that Vader>>>>Ben, as it's taking everything Ben has to simply hold his own for a time. So any argument that Ben>Vader can be tossed out the window thanks to that story, as far as Canon is concerned.
SithSauce
SithSauce

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 20th 2019, 5:29 am
@KingofBlades wrote:I won't argue canon Vader since I don't know much about Disney canon but in terms of legends Vader is below Ben Kenobi in the force as of ESB per Lucas. So unless you can prove Vader somehow went from sub kenobi to considerably above him in the span of a few months, Vader's feats don't prove anything.
That ESB quote is outdated af.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 20th 2019, 5:51 am
I agree that the quote is outdated in general, though I guess you can make certain arguments for its canonicity under the guidlines we use for official debates (quotes don't expire unless contradicted). Whether or not that be the case, however, doesn't mean Vader necessarily has Force showings that trump Kenobi's (unless you try and scale from Starkiller potentially). There's no indication Kenobi decreased in actual power during his exile, and like Vader, no doubt his Force capabilities were disproportionate to his saber ones. If we're talking about RotS Kenobi in power levels, I'm not sure what levels of argumentation Vader has to match/supercede that.

@SithSauce got any ideas you want to parse?
SithSauce
SithSauce

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 20th 2019, 1:43 pm
@Meatpants I'd like to add that the quote goes under the original conception that the darkside uses the force as their weapon while the Lightside uses the force for th exact opposite. That's why we get an explanation by Lucas on why Vader did not use force powers against Kenobi rather than an explanation on why Kenobi didn't use any force powers on Vader. But this then gets contradicted in later movies, as we've seen jedi use the force as their weapon in many instances, such as Luke choking gamorrean guards or Yoda oneshotting 2 royal guards with the force. Evidently jedi can use the force as their weapon, so we now need a plausible reasoning for why Kenobi didn't use the force on Vader too. We can't use "the holding back" excuse", as that doesn't pertain to the idea that he still could've used the force on Vader. Plus there was no evidence that he was holding back. So the most logical conclusion is that they were indeed equals as of ANH.
O-Siri
O-Siri

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 20th 2019, 5:13 pm
The ANH Kenobi >> ANH Vader in Force quote shouldn't be taken seriously. As mentioned previously, it's just a clumsy attempt to reconcile a perceived 
"plot-hole" the filmmakers were irrationally worried the audience would see - why didn't Vader used the Force on Kenobi like he did Luke? Well from an audience standpoint it was because there were no objects to throw around, pretty straightforward. It doesn't even fit into their own system. If two tiers are all it takes to dominate one with the Force why didn't Obi-Wan do so to Vader who was above Luke by the same amount, according to them? They just created even more plot holes with that shortsighted explanation. 

Fact is ANH Vader was winning in their duel on the Death Star in all relevant sources. Performances should always take precedence over internally inconsistent statements.
ILS
ILS

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 20th 2019, 5:39 pm
You're forgetting Ant's Law:


The Official Manual of Star Wars Versus Debating, Volume XXXXXXIIIIIVVVVV, Collector's Edition wrote:"Should a retarded piece of shit quote nobody should care about surface, discard it. The sole exception to this rule is if the quote shits on Darth Vader. If a quote meets this exception, it should receive the highest possible authority in the law of Star Wars debating."
DoA
DoA

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 21st 2019, 12:49 am
@Underachiever599 wrote:
Lords of the Sith has a quote confirming Suit Vader>Anakin, which by default means Suit Vader>Obi-Wan, who has repeatedly admitted that Anakin has surpassed him. 
Vader's opinion is hardly compelling proof  Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) 1220391476

I've yet to see anything from Canon Vader that matches Anakin's curbfondling of Tyranus
Latham2000
Latham2000

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 21st 2019, 7:58 am
@ILS wrote:You're forgetting Ant's Law:


The Official Manual of Star Wars Versus Debating, Volume XXXXXXIIIIIVVVVV, Collector's Edition wrote:"Should a retarded piece of shit quote nobody should care about surface, discard it. The sole exception to this rule is if the quote shits on Darth Vader. If a quote meets this exception, it should receive the highest possible authority in the law of Star Wars debating."

I would like to read that entire manual Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) 228124001
Latham2000
Latham2000

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 21st 2019, 8:02 am
I can vaguely remember Leland Chee saying what Lucas thought of in the 1970s doesn't necessarily hold up to his 2000s vision for Star Wars. Does anyone else see something like that?
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 21st 2019, 11:53 am
Unless you can find evidence that Lucas changed his mind in regards to Vader and Ben the quote stands.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 21st 2019, 1:44 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Unless you can find evidence that Lucas changed his mind in regards to Vader and Ben the quote stands.
Again, the quote is irrelevant when we consider Canon. The OP stipulated we can use Canon or Legends, whichever is stronger. Canon Vader is factually too strong for Old Ben to deal with. We see this in "Time of Death," Ben's short story in From A Certain Point of View. So in Canon, the quote does not hold true, and instead we have to compare feats. Quite frankly, all of Vader's Canon feats blow Kenobi's Legends feats out of the water, since Kenobi has never been depicted as a powerhouse in the Force.
KingofBlades
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Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only) Empty Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Vader (duelling only)

on October 21st 2019, 2:45 pm
I was addressing the previous post that talked about Lucas's vision supposedly changing.
BreakofDawn
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on October 21st 2019, 2:47 pm
Lucas changed his mind and opinions on specific topics to fit the times and technical constraints. That BS ESB "Ben is a six, Vader is a four" quote doesn't stand up to a lot of what Lucas said, considering that Lucas:

> Explained that he only accepted the "old, half-machine" view because of their limited tech and choreography (contrasting this with ESB),
> Was clearly promoting the Prequels when discussing their age during the TPM featurette (unless, of course, you have Qui-Gon or padawan Obi-Wan >> ROTJ Luke),
> Supported Ben being driven back throughout the original ANH novel and in the film and being under strain within the script, all of which was written before the forms were even a concept, so Ben was definitely losing either through skill, physicals or power,
> In the earlier ESB scripts, Vader claimed Luke was giving him a better fight than Ben did (can't remember which draft).

But, you know, one unofficial conference discussion automatically >> all other original pieces of information.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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on October 21st 2019, 5:31 pm
All of Lucas's statements and systems are G canon, whether you like it or not, unless you can show they have been retconned by a later source. Though if we do role with the premise that certain statements have other motives not related to lore and that these motives matter in regards to their value, then the ranking system still holds.  One was done for marketing reasons, the other was done for keeping the continuity consistent. Hardly the same thing.
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