Who would win sabers only? Dooku or Vader?

I agree with everything The Apprentice listed.  I'm also going to have say the aggregate of Vaders fights are much worse than Dooku's.  Lucas' commentary of where Vader stands in the physical arts doesn't help the suited menaces' case.  Savage vs Dooku can be seen as an upset given that TCW isn't made with a properly structured   tier list like the movies were with Gillard, hence why topsy turvy showings are the norm - Cad Bane defeating Kenobi before Vos saves him etc, Pre Vizla standing up to Maul far better than Savage did, not to mention the dog that tackled him.  


The of course we have Vader's equal in SOM Luke getting romped by Karr Vastor in a far less dignifying fashion than Mace did on the planet that gives the savage warrior power, the Fightsaber article claiming ANH Obi Wan is a shadow of his former - AOTC - self, the fact that Luke probably didn't even touch AOTC anakin level until after ROTJ (due to potential and training).  Dooku really does toy with Vader given the mountain of evidence demonstrating his superiority.

 Lucas' commentary of where Vader stands in the physical arts doesn't help the suited menaces' case. 

By that logic, ESB Vader and ANH Vader aren't even comparable:


 By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England. 


Lucas contrasts the "old man vs a half-man, half-machine" with ESB, where Vader was played by "one of the best sword fighters in England." 

Not to mention Vader was winning that fight, despite being emotionally hindered.

Cad Bane defeating Kenobi before Vos saves him

Nothing wrong with that scene. Obi-Wan thought he won and Cad had to land some cheap shots just to temporarily incapacitate him. Kenobi had him beat throughout the entire fight.

Pre Vizla standing up to Maul far better than Savage did

Vizsla has skill, discipline and experience, all of which Savage lacks. Savage is used to relying on his strength, which is his downfall against most combatants. Not to mention Maul wasn't using the Force so it was purely a saber battle. 

The of course we have Vader's equal in SOM Luke getting romped by Karr Vastor in a far less dignifying fashion than Mace did on the planet that gives the savage warrior power,

Vader has a different technique and different physicals to Luke, so who knows how that fight would go down? If we really need to compare, Nick already told us Vader >> Kar, so it's pretty difficult to compare the two.

I'd also say ROTJ Luke only = ROTJ Vader in sabers. 

Also, did they even fight?

"Verisimilitude? I did not defeat Kar Vastor in single combat- I didn't even fight him. He was terrified, and confused, and aside from one, well, bite, he just ran away. I didn't cut off his arms with my lightsaber, and I don't even know what a vibroshield is."
"I did take some liberties," Geptun said. "Call it artistic license."

the Fightsaber article claiming ANH Obi Wan is a shadow of his former - AOTC - self,

Clearly written to explain the poor fighting and was basically retconned by Lucas. Besides which:


Within the armored forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

Once again, ESB Vader >>> ANH Vader. 

the fact that Luke probably didn't even touch AOTC anakin level until after ROTJ (due to potential and training).

I really don't see this being a thing.

Dooku really does toy with Vader given the mountain of evidence demonstrating his superiority.

Not really. Dooku may have the edge in speed, agility and technical skill, but Vader has prior knowledge, overwhelming strength and comparable - if not greater - power in the Force.

Was going to respond to that but thanks BoD. Though there are somethings I'll additionally add later on.

@Breakofdawn thank u for that, albeit, regarding ur last comment about galen and shryne- galen had been traning with vader for 15 years, and also had two lightsabers, against a vader who never went for fatal strikes either, while shryne outdid a vader who did have control over his body well enough just yet, and whose hybrid style wasnt even finished yet, much less perfected. hell, vader get's hit by a jedi in that novel, and gets surprised by it, stating how he shouldve fodderized her, instead of getting hit by her, so his new body 100% came into play in that fight

BreakofDawn wrote:

-Struggling with ESB Luke.
-Stalemating Old Ben.
-Getting slapped by TPM Darth Maul.

Nice to see the inaccurate lowballing hasn't stopped. Brb, starting a Savage > Dooku train to go with it.

If you can give me a reason to dismiss the objective OOU sources stating the fight was equal, and that Ben is still his match, I will concede. Until then, Vader is still = Ben. In total contrast, despite the circumstances being rigged against The Count, the objective OOU sources still support him, stating he held the edge against both of his apprentices.

Are people still going on about that very dated Insider quote?...Come on now, you guys really think it makes any sort of sense with taking into account the material that came later on?

This would actually elevate Ben, given that Vader is shown later on to basically kill much more agile and other Jedi Knights and Masters. So why would this be a low showing for Vader?

In fact, why is it I see this double standard?

No one else brings this up for any other kind of character. I mean Kun for example, has a good fight against Baas who doesn't really have much going for him. Yet people wanna say that Kun is faaar more powerful than what TOTJ shows with other material coming later.

vader was mentally unstable enough that he was literally afraid of fighting cuz of what happened to him last time. he kept thinking that 1 hit was his end, and what not, even though we have seen him literally come back to life, and survive much worse shit, while obi literally admitted inferiority, while vader was still winning the whole time. so yeah, obi wan= mentally unstable vader, who was not actively attacking, who used nothing force based (i heard that shit about him blocking a force push, but it doesnt mean shit unless u can prove that vader actually used some of his full power in that attack), who kept hesitating the whole fight lol