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EmperorCaedusLevel Three
Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 11:25 am
Dooku as of RotS
Vader and Luke as of RotJ
Who wins?
Vader and Luke as of RotJ
Who wins?
lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 11:39 am
pretty much this. dooku being a better duelist is already arguable by itself, while the only sure advantage that he has is agility, but vader has fought people even agile than dooku before. many of them in fact.HellfireUnit wrote:Vader solos
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 11:51 am
Vader can solo. While Dooku has more applicable technical skill, lightning and is more agile, Vader has experience, strength, an unconventional fighting style, and comparable raw power on his side. He's also shown resistance to powerful lightning via Starkiller. It could go either way but I'd probably back Vader 5.5/10.
Latham2000Level Three
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 11:55 am
BoD wrote:Vader can solo. While Dooku has more applicable technical skill and is more agile, Vader has experience, strength, an unconventional fighting style, and comparable raw power on his side.
This, and in addition to that, Vader is more more brutal, more durable and has intimiate knowledge of Dooku's tactics and technique.
- MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 12:03 pm
BoD wrote:Vader can solo. While Dooku has more applicable technical skill, lightning and is more agile, Vader has experience, strength, an unconventional fighting style, and comparable raw power on his side. He's also shown resistance to powerful lightning via Starkiller. It could go either way but I'd probably back Vader 5.5/10.
There's so much wrong with this, I don't know where to begin.
AlakanSpacewalker
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 12:16 pm
Either Luke or Vader solo. Vader is way too strong and resilient, if Anakin can casually body Dooku than Vader who can use both the light and dark sides of the Force with better control over both sides, more sophisticated and versatile dueling than Anakin. Luke also solos because he’s basically Vader with less experience and not requiring a hindering suit to sustain himself since he could stalemate Vader while he himself was holding back because it was his father meanwhile Vader was trying to kill him in order to fully submerge himself in the Dark Side. Vader even has feats and author statements to put him above Dooku and Luke scales off of them.
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 12:23 pm
Meatpants wrote:BoD wrote:Vader can solo. While Dooku has more applicable technical skill, lightning and is more agile, Vader has experience, strength, an unconventional fighting style, and comparable raw power on his side. He's also shown resistance to powerful lightning via Starkiller. It could go either way but I'd probably back Vader 5.5/10.
There's so much wrong with this, I don't know where to begin.
Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 12:26 pm
Thats a sudden change in public opinion of Vader's skill and power
Corvinus
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 6:39 pm
Either one beats Dooku. Both is a slaughter.
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 7:02 pm
Probably because the CV driven anti-Vader behaviourist sentiment is lessening.Cheth wrote:Thats a sudden change in public opinion of Vader's skill and power
SeturnaLevel One
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 7:07 pm
Ye ROTJ luke ain’t beating dooku lol
IGLevel Four
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 7:44 pm
Hm. Vader can use light and the dark? I'm calling horseshit here.AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Either Luke or Vader solo. Vader is way too strong and resilient, if Anakin can casually body Dooku than Vader who can use both the light and dark sides of the Force with better control over both sides, more sophisticated and versatile dueling than Anakin. Luke also solos because he’s basically Vader with less experience and not requiring a hindering suit to sustain himself since he could stalemate Vader while he himself was holding back because it was his father meanwhile Vader was trying to kill him in order to fully submerge himself in the Dark Side. Vader even has feats and author statements to put him above Dooku and Luke scales off of them.
Unless either Luke or Vader are literally equal to Yoda at this point, they aren't touching Dooku lol. Vader has statements pinning him at Ben level or below--per Lucas, "we've never seen a real Jedi yet", implying Luke doesn't have the skill, and/or power of a "real Jedi", including the likes of even Qui Gon, and he's said that not using the force for a while on a daily basis (training with it) will make you regress (kind of like Ben on Tatooine, huh?). Meaning that Ben, in both power and skill with a saber is vastly inferior to his ROTS Self. Dooku ragdolls ROTS Kenobi and annihilates him in a duel. GG.
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 8:09 pm
Ooh-kay, let's deal with the latest IG lowballing post:
Why is this relevant?
You don't need to be Yoda level to tag Dooku, nor do you need to be Yoda level to gain an advantage over him. You also don't need to be Yoda level to be above Dooku since he's not Yoda level.
And? Vader also has many statements putting him > Ben, and also has the advantage of virtually every single depiction of the fight showing him as superior.
If you bothered to read the full quote, you'd know he was talking about choreography:
"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas: TPM: Fights Featurette
This was for promotional purposes. He then later retconned this to be purely logistical, not a representation of their abilities:
Just how restrictive was that costume?
He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England.
At best, you could argue ANH Vader < Qui-Gon as a duelist, because Lucas makes it abundantly clear that Vader's costume was the reason for the slow fight in ANH. He then makes it clear that Luke and Vader are "Jedi" and "supposed to be quite active". So no, ROTJ Luke (and ROTJ Vader, considering the two are = in saber skill) is not < Qui-Gon.
Proof Ben wasn't training in the Force? ROTS' ending clearly contradicts this, and his training with Qui-Gon also suggests otherwise.
Proof Ben <<< ROTS Kenobi in power?
Many different cases depict him as either landing a kick or surprising Obi-Wan with the ragdoll. The film likewise has Obi-Wan clearly surprised by it:
Except he doesn't. He hasn't managed to "annihilate" Obi-Wan since AOTC.
Hm. Vader can use light and the dark? I'm calling horseshit here.
Why is this relevant?
Unless either Luke or Vader are literally equal to Yoda at this point, they aren't touching Dooku lol.
You don't need to be Yoda level to tag Dooku, nor do you need to be Yoda level to gain an advantage over him. You also don't need to be Yoda level to be above Dooku since he's not Yoda level.
Vader has statements pinning him at Ben level or below
And? Vader also has many statements putting him > Ben, and also has the advantage of virtually every single depiction of the fight showing him as superior.
--per Lucas,"we've never seen a real Jedi yet", implying Luke doesn't have the skill, and/or power of a "real Jedi", including the likes of even Qui Gon,
If you bothered to read the full quote, you'd know he was talking about choreography:
"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas: TPM: Fights Featurette
This was for promotional purposes. He then later retconned this to be purely logistical, not a representation of their abilities:
Just how restrictive was that costume?
He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England.
At best, you could argue ANH Vader < Qui-Gon as a duelist, because Lucas makes it abundantly clear that Vader's costume was the reason for the slow fight in ANH. He then makes it clear that Luke and Vader are "Jedi" and "supposed to be quite active". So no, ROTJ Luke (and ROTJ Vader, considering the two are = in saber skill) is not < Qui-Gon.
and he's said that not using the force for a while on a daily basis (training with it) will make you regress (kind of like Ben on Tatooine, huh?).
Proof Ben wasn't training in the Force? ROTS' ending clearly contradicts this, and his training with Qui-Gon also suggests otherwise.
Meaning that Ben, in both power and skill with a saber is vastly inferior to his ROTS Self.
Proof Ben <<< ROTS Kenobi in power?
Dooku ragdolls ROTS Kenobi
Many different cases depict him as either landing a kick or surprising Obi-Wan with the ragdoll. The film likewise has Obi-Wan clearly surprised by it:
and annihilates him in a duel.
Except he doesn't. He hasn't managed to "annihilate" Obi-Wan since AOTC.
- LOTL
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 8:12 pm
IG wrote:AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Either Luke or Vader solo. Vader is way too strong and resilient, if Anakin can casually body Dooku than Vader who can use both the light and dark sides of the Force with better control over both sides, more sophisticated and versatile dueling than Anakin. Luke also solos because he’s basically Vader with less experience and not requiring a hindering suit to sustain himself since he could stalemate Vader while he himself was holding back because it was his father meanwhile Vader was trying to kill him in order to fully submerge himself in the Dark Side. Vader even has feats and author statements to put him above Dooku and Luke scales off of them.
Unless either Luke or Vader are literally equal to Yoda at this point, they aren't touching Dooku lol. Vader has statements pinning him at Ben level or below--per Lucas, "we've never seen a real Jedi yet", implying Luke doesn't have the skill, and/or power of a "real Jedi", including the likes of even Qui Gon, and he's said that not using the force for a while on a daily basis (training with it) will make you regress (kind of like Ben on Tatooine, huh?). Meaning that Ben, in both power and skill with a saber is vastly inferior to his ROTS Self. Dooku ragdolls ROTS Kenobi and annihilates him in a duel. GG.
Bro?
Shioz
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 11:21 pm
Corvinus wrote:Either one beats Dooku. Both is a slaughter.
The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 11:26 pm
>Can vader use the light and the dark
-IG
-IG
"Though he retained his knowledge of the Jedi arts he felt uncertain as to his place in the force."
Underachiever599
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 7th 2020, 11:49 pm
Vader solos.
I've always stood by the opinion that Vader was Palpatine's best apprentice, despite the setback of being placed in the suit. He has all the knowledge and skill of Anakin, and many sources imply that Vader as of RotJ may in fact be stronger in the Force than Anakin as of RotS (with RotJ Vader being considered Vader in his prime by several sources, which should make him stronger than RotS Pre-suit Vader). On top of this, Vader should be physically stronger than Anakin, and is unquestionably more durable. And of course, he'd have intimate knowledge of Dooku's fighting style, given Anakin's prior experience against the Sith. Dooku may be a touch more quick (even that's debatable, given some of Vader's speed feats), and his Force lightning gives him a minor edge against Vader, but I just don't see him ultimately beating Vader for a majority.
Throw in Luke, who is equally skilled and powerful as Vader, but far quicker and more agile, and Dooku just doesn't have a chance here. Now, I don't believe Luke would necessarily defeat Dooku 1v1, due to Dooku's far greater experience and wider variety of Force abilities, but he's definitely a strong enough opponent that Dooku couldn't reliably beat Luke while also having to deal with the likes of Vader.
I've always stood by the opinion that Vader was Palpatine's best apprentice, despite the setback of being placed in the suit. He has all the knowledge and skill of Anakin, and many sources imply that Vader as of RotJ may in fact be stronger in the Force than Anakin as of RotS (with RotJ Vader being considered Vader in his prime by several sources, which should make him stronger than RotS Pre-suit Vader). On top of this, Vader should be physically stronger than Anakin, and is unquestionably more durable. And of course, he'd have intimate knowledge of Dooku's fighting style, given Anakin's prior experience against the Sith. Dooku may be a touch more quick (even that's debatable, given some of Vader's speed feats), and his Force lightning gives him a minor edge against Vader, but I just don't see him ultimately beating Vader for a majority.
Throw in Luke, who is equally skilled and powerful as Vader, but far quicker and more agile, and Dooku just doesn't have a chance here. Now, I don't believe Luke would necessarily defeat Dooku 1v1, due to Dooku's far greater experience and wider variety of Force abilities, but he's definitely a strong enough opponent that Dooku couldn't reliably beat Luke while also having to deal with the likes of Vader.
- Underachiever599
Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke
February 8th 2020, 12:07 am
I've seen several people post their arguments for Vader. Would you mind posting your argument for Dooku, for the sake of conversation? You claim there's several things wrong with our arguments for Vader, so I'm curious to see what your argument actually is.Meatpants wrote:
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