Who would win sabers only? Dooku or Vader?

ThelittleGreenFriend99 wrote:@dark-sith123 Is there any evidence to suggest Ben Kenobi grew weaker in the force? If he indeed got stronger,  I don't see how this fight can  be used to lowball Vader.

I believe there are quote(s) attesting Ben grew stronger in the Force, though I am unable to cite any from memory.

His fighting skills likely stagnated, but not to a point where it would make him far weaker than the likes of Dooku or even Kenobi's RotS incarnation. Vader was also immensely pre-prime when he fought Ben, so even if the Jedi Master held the upper hand in the engagement (he did not; Vader's blunt superiority has been noted on several occasions) it is hardly a blemish on Prime Vader's combative abilities.

@dark-sith123 I'll respond to all your "wrong" claims tomorrow, including the nonsense you've been telling IJ.

DC77 wrote:@Trayus Marauder

Vader though this would be a fantastic fight. Could honestly see a reasonable argument for either side here.

Good, at least you appear to be open to hearing arguments.

As for my reasons for picking Vader:

-Incredible endurance/strength which would play against Dooku. It is even noted that Dooku's form struggles against severe kinetic force when it comes to dueling

Not a good reason. Sans Anakin (Who's by far the best Form V fighter Dooku's ever seen, capable of using his strength effectively in a way other duellists can't) Dooku's never been shown to have an issue against duellists of superior strength (Grievous springs to mind) due to his superior skill.

-Vader's familiarity with Dooku and Dooku's lack of familiarity with Vader and how he fights
-Vader's overall knowledge of saber forms which would allow him to exploit the weaknesses of Makashi

Neither of which helped him against Kenobi in ANH (Somebody who's beneath Dooku by a clear margin), it's not that significant an advantage.

I'm always open to arguments provided they are of sound quality and can effectively trump/negate my own.

It's not so much about strength alone as it is about the fact that Vader could blend it with his Djem So hybrid form in order to maximise the advantage that form V has over form II.

The ANH Kenobi comparision doesn't really work here seeing as Soresu can't be exploited in the same way that Makashi can via Vader's form.

DC77 wrote:@dark-sith123 I'll respond to all your "wrong" claims tomorrow, including the nonsense you've been telling IJ.

Well, bring it on, tiger. I'm sure we'd all be delighted to hear about how Vader is a Kyle Katarn level scrub.

@Trayus Marauder

It's not so much about strength alone as it is about the fact that Vader could blend it with his Djem So hybrid form in order to maximise the advantage that form V has over form II.

Not sure what you mean here. Sure, suit Vader is a lot more holistic in his approach to lightsaber combat to make up for the huge loss in his augmentation, but this sort of argument really shorthands Dooku. Dooku was a master of every form of lightsaber combat. Even as a Jedi, he was a "much sought after" combat instructor. As a Sith, he only improved his skills. In TCW, we seem him utilising a lot of skills that he's integrated into his own personal style of Makashi, including kicks, acrobatics and application of force powers if need be. The idea that Vader's new hybrid style is somehow superior on a technical level to a style Dooku has perfected over countless decades specifically for lightsaber combat is puzzling. What's more, I've yet to see any definitive proof that Vader's augmentation would allow him to overpower Dooku's defenses.

Everyone supporting Vader is obsessed with RotS Anakin, as if he has so much to do with Vader winning. I fail to see the comparison. I don't see any proof that Vader had re-accquired the same level of augmented strength that Anakin did. For one, his ANH incarnation is virtually outskilled by TPM Maul, who can bladelock Vader with one hand on more than one occasion. Or that same Vader needing to concentrate intensly on Ben Kenobi, who is at the absolute best a somewhat weaker version of his RotS self (though likely markedly weaker combatively). Sure, he increased his lightsaber skills by ESB, but to what degree is debatable and unquantiable for the most part, and the quote of RotJ Vader's growth in the force could easily interpreted as merely being a result of resonating with the aura of the emperor - not a solid bedrock from which to argue substantial growth. On the IH, Anakin was demonstrating a level of augmented strength that even Yoda couldn't achieve on Dooku (as presumably would be the case in RotS well, considering both grew), so the implication from the Vader camp is that Vader can augment his strength above Yoda's or even RotS Sidious' really (considering their approximate parity as of RotS in dueling). So really, this is an argument about whether Vader ever surpassed Yoda and Sidious as they were in RotS, to which the answer is a no. I don't see the evidence. I'm open to changing my mind though.

The ANH Kenobi comparision doesn't really work here seeing as Soresu can't be exploited in the same way that Makashi can via Vader's form.

Dooku has retooled Makashi over countless decades, it took someone stronger than Yoda to actually make him worry about his defenses being kinetically overpowered. This is an irrelevant point unless you can prove that Vader has surpassed tiers 9 like Yoda, RotS Sidious and his RotS self.

Vader wins with the sheer advantage of having hindsight.

Dooku takes it if Legends, but I can be swayed.

Vader takes it if Canon.

Meatpants wrote:@Trayus Marauder

It's not so much about strength alone as it is about the fact that Vader could blend it with his Djem So hybrid form in order to maximise the advantage that form V has over form II.

Not sure what you mean here. Sure, suit Vader is a lot more holistic in his approach to lightsaber combat to make up for the huge loss in his augmentation, but this sort of argument really shorthands Dooku. Dooku was a master of every form of lightsaber combat. Even as a Jedi, he was a "much sought after" combat instructor. As a Sith, he only improved his skills. In TCW, we seem him utilising a lot of skills that he's integrated into his own personal style of Makashi, including kicks, acrobatics and application of force powers if need be. The idea that Vader's new hybrid style is somehow superior on a technical level to a style Dooku has perfected over countless decades specifically for lightsaber combat is puzzling. What's more, I've yet to see any definitive proof that Vader's augmentation would allow him to overpower Dooku's defenses.

Everyone supporting Vader is obsessed with RotS Anakin, as if he has so much to do with Vader winning. I fail to see the comparison. I don't see any proof that Vader had re-accquired the same level of augmented strength that Anakin did. For one, his ANH incarnation is virtually outskilled by TPM Maul, who can bladelock Vader with one hand on more than one occasion. Or that same Vader needing to concentrate intensly on Ben Kenobi, who is at the absolute best a somewhat weaker version of his RotS self (though likely markedly weaker combatively). Sure, he increased his lightsaber skills by ESB, but to what degree is debatable and unquantiable for the most part, and the quote of RotJ Vader's growth in the force could easily interpreted as merely being a result of resonating with the aura of the emperor - not a solid bedrock from which to argue substantial growth. On the IH, Anakin was demonstrating a level of augmented strength that even Yoda couldn't achieve on Dooku (as presumably would be the case in RotS well, considering both grew), so the implication from the Vader camp is that Vader can augment his strength above Yoda's or even RotS Sidious' really (considering their approximate parity as of RotS in dueling). So really, this is an argument about whether Vader ever surpassed Yoda and Sidious as they were in RotS, to which the answer is a no. I don't see the evidence. I'm open to changing my mind though.

The ANH Kenobi comparision doesn't really work here seeing as Soresu can't be exploited in the same way that Makashi can via Vader's form.

Dooku has retooled Makashi over countless decades, it took someone stronger than Yoda to actually make him worry about his defenses being kinetically overpowered. This is an irrelevant point unless you can prove that Vader has surpassed tiers 9 like Yoda, RotS Sidious and his RotS self.

Your entire argument seems to be built around the assumption that Vader would require Yoda+ levels of augmentation in order to exploit as I have described. This is not necessarily the case. I'm sure others might be willing to go for the Vader>Yoda placement but with the point I'm putting forward, it doesn't really matter as much as you are claiming. I'll explain my meaning with the following quote:

"Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

-RotS novel

In this assessment, Dooku is noting how the properties of Djem So are the primary factor which places Makashi at a disadvantage, not necessarily requiring superior augmentation to back it up. Note that in his analysis, he doesn't reference Skywalker's phenomenal augmentation as a crucial factor. Sure, the form V user would require a level of augmentation that is at least close to Dooku but Vader being in the same ballpark as Dooku (at a minimum) can be justified through multiple sources but one would include the following (quote is in reference to Vader):

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-247142/?fbclid=IwAR32Ize66ComSElXKKVkIfW6IyeEcpr-eJKvpuT8ZY6BuAjZ7-mBCO0gQAc

Vader

Dooku. Vader has always been a bit of a chump when it comes to sabers.

Vader in both with mid difficulty at most.

Dooku

I'll give the edge to Dooku in sabers. Vader is probably more powerful though

Vader isn't the pressure fighter Anakin was so I don't see him wearing Dooku down or nullifying his offense. Dooku's king when it comes to the technical battle. He might get tired if it drags on but if that happens I can see Dooku successfully creating distance through a distraction and rejuvenating himself with the Force.

Dooku shreds.

Contention with Yoda across the Clone War>>>post-RotS Vader

I'd say Vader wins because he has instinctive knowledge of Dooku's tactics and technique, but if we remove that knowledge, Dooku probably wins because he's more skilled and has extensive experience with juggarnoats.

Dooku barely holds his own against a serious Clone Wars Anakin's strength and stamina which are nothing compared to Vader's stats and with the latter's saber mastery.

yeah lol vader isnt worse duelist hahaha

With knowledge, Legends Vader could maybe take a majority. Take it away though, and he loses hard. Legends Vader is good, but not that good.

In canon, it could go either way.

I don't think Vader can exploit his knowledge in a means to victory. Dooku is an A-class instructor with extensive instructional knowledge of all the forms, he'll get the measure of Vader's style in no time, which should level the knowledge field.

Also true. He'll pick up the elements of Vader's hybrid form and work out its weaknesses. If the likes of Galen and Roan Shryne can do that, so can Dooku.

What weaknesses? Vader has a direct advantage when it comes to form due to his strength and style. His defenses aren't any different which contains the elements of Soresu. He can quickly change his stance due to his personal style even if Count can block his strikes and counter attack. Dooku struggles against the brute strength of a younger Anakin and Savage. Vader simply overpowers him once again. I also doubt he is as fast as Vader.

yeah, anakin won against dooku by using power, something which vader has even more now. him being less agile means shit, since his Djen So, which was less agile back then, btw, also had that same problem, and he still beat dooku.

Dooku still slaps. Vader has no feats on par with contending with Yoda, in fact, all of his feats suggest he couldn't replicate Dooku's performance, namely:

-Struggling with ESB Luke.
-Stalemating Old Ben.
-Getting slapped by TPM Darth Maul.

You get the idea.

-Struggling with ESB Luke.
-Stalemating Old Ben.
-Getting slapped by TPM Darth Maul.

Nice to see the inaccurate lowballing hasn't stopped. Brb, starting a Savage > Dooku train to go with it.