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KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 7th 2019, 9:46 pm
Whenever Plagueis is brought up in a vs matchup with someone close to him in power, I often see the argument that he wins via MM. However Plagueis has only been shown using it in "combat" against Veruna. I don't see anything showing it would be useful in a fight against a powerful force user.
Praxis
Praxis
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 7th 2019, 9:50 pm
Yeah this is something I've been contemplating. Can't you just take the MM argument and say Plagueis beats everyone including the Ones? Whats the limit?
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 8th 2019, 1:57 am
He uses it to heal himself against Sidious's lightning at point blank range without otherwise defending himself, only failing because his breathing apparatus broke.
Shioz
Shioz

Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 8th 2019, 2:00 am
Plagueis demonstrated that he could easily kill creatures with no connection to the Force. For example, he did this with Veruna. I do not think that Plagueis can also kill powerful Force users, but its power allows it to deprive the Jedi of their abilities. In this case, midichlorian manipulation's are similar to the sever Force technique.

Darth Plagueis wrote:“Let me explain what is happening to you,” Plagueis said. “The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you.”
Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? The_bo10
Darth Plagueis could defend himself against TPM Darth Sidious's Force lightning without even using a barrier or tutaminis. By simply manipulating the midichlorians, he can defend himself against a Force user that is comparable to him. I note that Sidious, in an attempt to kill Plagueis, plunged deeper into the Force than ever, but the Muun could still defend himself for a long time.
Darth Plagueis wrote:Crackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun’s breathing device. Plagueis’s eyes snapped open, the Force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who had survived assassinations and killed countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn’t be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place. Momentarily taken aback, Sidious stood absolutely still. Was Plagueis so self-deluded as to believe that he had achieved immortality?
The question lingered for only a moment, then Sidious unleashed another tangle of lightning, drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had.
“Let’s go over the second part of the speech, shall we,” he said, smoothing his tousled cloak. “You useless old fool.”
Darth Plagueis wrote:Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. “Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis.” He held his thumb and forefinger close together. “Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you.”
I would say that MM is a very powerful trump card that Plagueis can use to seriously weaken the enemy (or cut off from the Force) and as its additional defense. imo, basically these abilities could allow him to compete with the RotS titans.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 8th 2019, 2:30 am
Plagueis is on the same conventional power level as Sidious. MM is just a bonus on top of that.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 8th 2019, 3:45 am
Plagueis used it against Sidious defensively, and as he notes, using it offensively is even easier. I'd say he could one-shot anyone who doesn't have sovereignty over their midi-chlorians with it so long as they leave a gap in their Force defenses.

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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Sheev_sig_3
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 8th 2019, 4:44 am
Azronger wrote:Plagueis used it against Sidious defensively, and as he notes, using it offensively is even easier. I'd say he could one-shot anyone who doesn't have sovereignty over their midi-chlorians with it so long as they leave a gap in their Force defenses.
So would he be able to one shot GM Luke despite Luke's massive power advantage?
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 8th 2019, 12:12 pm
Why exactly do we assume Plagueis can apply it against Force Users more powerful than himself? I don't doubt he can use it in combat, but to what degree is it effective? He's never been shown to use it against anyone more powerful than himself, so I don't get why we should just assume he can.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 9th 2019, 6:18 pm
Azronger wrote:Plagueis used it against Sidious defensively, and as he notes, using it offensively is even easier. I'd say he could one-shot anyone who doesn't have sovereignty over their midi-chlorians with it so long as they leave a gap in their Force defenses.
Plagueis notes that the ancient jedi were also capable of doing this offensively(wall of light/sever force technique) but that they didn't know the science behind what they were doing. Since there are examples of individuals resisting the sever force technique(Exar Kun comes to mind) I don't think you can say that Plagueis can one shot virtually anyone in the mythos using MM.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 9th 2019, 6:45 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
Azronger wrote:Plagueis used it against Sidious defensively, and as he notes, using it offensively is even easier. I'd say he could one-shot anyone who doesn't have sovereignty over their midi-chlorians with it so long as they leave a gap in their Force defenses.
So would he be able to one shot GM Luke despite Luke's massive power advantage?

If Luke slips up, yes. If he keeps his barriers on, though, no, Plagueis wouldn't be able to do much to him.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 9th 2019, 6:48 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:Why exactly do we assume Plagueis can apply it against Force Users more powerful than himself? I don't doubt he can use it in combat, but to what degree is it effective? He's never been shown to use it against anyone more powerful than himself, so I don't get why we should just assume he can.

Because power levels are irrelevant in manipulating midi-chlorians unless the other person is actively trying to prevent it.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 9th 2019, 6:53 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
Azronger wrote:Plagueis used it against Sidious defensively, and as he notes, using it offensively is even easier. I'd say he could one-shot anyone who doesn't have sovereignty over their midi-chlorians with it so long as they leave a gap in their Force defenses.
Plagueis notes that the ancient jedi were also capable of doing this offensively(wall of light/sever force technique) but that they didn't know the science behind what they were doing. Since there are examples of individuals resisting the sever force technique(Exar Kun comes to mind) I don't think you can say that Plagueis can one shot virtually anyone in the mythos using MM.

Nah, casting a wall of light isn't the same as tapping into the midi-chlorians directly: the description of the ability is completely different. Also, Plagueis' speculation on how the techniques of ancient Jedi worked is just that - speculation. We know that it's possible to passively regain the ability to use the Force after Force sever (Meetra and arguably Ulic are examples of this), so it's not something as permanent as reducing the Jedi's midi-chlorian count.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 9th 2019, 6:56 pm
Plagueis and Sidious were the only ones who knew about manipulating them. Sever Force is completely different than MM.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 9th 2019, 7:13 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Plagueis and Sidious were the only ones who knew about manipulating them. Sever Force is completely different than MM.
While the techniques may be different based off of the description of the two techniques, the fact that Plagueis and Sheev were the only ones to study MM isn't. If you read Plagueis's portion of the Book of Sith, then you see him go on about how the jedi order was and continues to shroud everything in a cloud of mysticism. This is a critique he extends to the Sith preceding him as well. Plagueis wants to understand the science behind the force and its techniques instead of the mystical interpretation that was the norm. Sever Force could be an example of this; of Jedi cutting off individuals from the force without realizing they were actually causing the necrosis of the individual's midichlorians. Of course as Azronger has pointed out,the description of sever force is seemingly quite different from MM. I'm gonna have to think on this point some more.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 9th 2019, 7:48 pm
@Azronger so some of my thoughts:
1. The Sever force technique is stated to be capable of causing temporary or permanent blockage to someone's connection to the force. This could explain the instances of force users regaining their powers after having the technique used on them. 

2. The permanency of MM used in this fashion is unknown. Neither the Plagueis novel nor his portion of the Book of Sith offer examples of anyone having their connection to the force cut off. For all we know after a period of time a person's midichlorian count restores itself.

3. The sever force/WoL technique has the potential for being fatal. The Jedi coalition that trapped Exar Kun on Yavin IV were actually attempting to destroy him with the technique. In fact his physical body was actually destroyed by the WoL. So it is possible to use the technique to kill off living/organic matter. 

4. The description of the Sever Force technique Odan Urr gives Nomi Sunrider is by no means an accurate description of what is happening from a scientific perspective. We don't know what it actually means to block someone's connection to the force with a wall of light. Theoretically, the Sever force technique could in all actuality be a case of causing the necrosis of a person's midichlorians to block their connection to the force and actively preventing the regeneration of new ones when used permanently.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

on September 9th 2019, 8:24 pm
It's effective for withstanding attacks but useless in employing them as far as I can tell.
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Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat? Empty Re: Midichlorian Manipulation's usefulness in combat?

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