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LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Fri 14 Feb - 9:14
Updated the spirit section.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Thu 5 Mar - 11:43
Updated my Malak Addendum:

@LadyKulvax wrote:This quote has been used to claim that Darth Malak is 'far more powerful' than both Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun:
Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 2019-04-25

I personally don't see the quote as having anything like such a meaning:

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

RED: Here we get a very clear description of Malak that already refers to his own 'devastating' dark side power.

BLUE: Here we get a question about what provides him with far greater powers than Freedon Nadd or Exar Kun.

There's a distinction to be made here. Malak himself has devastating power. Something; the Star Forge, is providing/supplying him with far greater powers. Those 'powers' aren't clearly defined, in fact there's no mention of the Force at all. But the assumption is made that it is referring to powers of the Force. Now whilst this is obviously the first thing that comes to mind, it's not exactly about Malak himself but the source of said power. This source is the Star Forge.

The Star Forge is an insanely potent dark side super-weapon that killed off a galaxy-wide civilisation:

Ancient Rakatan Computer, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate."

Whilst we know that Malak managed to control the Star Forge, this would only go so far. As we see above, the Star Forge is ever growing in power. Aware of this fact, we know that even Revan wouldn't have kept the Star Forge because he knew it would end not just him or Malak, but the Force itself, through Bastila Shan who is bonded to Revan and sees into his mind:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith... the end of the Force."

In fact, we see that it's the Star Forge itself that is deemed too powerful to be stopped, not Malak as Bastila admits that she thinks Revan is more powerful than Malak but still deems the Star Forge too powerful for even Revan to stop:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:But you Revan - the power of the dark side is yours to command! You can use it to destroy Malak! With my help you could rule over the entire galaxy!"

"No one can stand against the power of the Star Forge!"

The Star Forge is far more powerful than either Malak or Kun are and it is this that 'provides' far greater powers. In fact, it's not exactly so much as a mega-amp but what we see first-hand is that it more acts like an endless source of energy that can replenish the Force reserves of any dark sider:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"Your strength falters, the light side is failing you while the power of the Star Forge re-energizes me!"

Darth Malak, Star Wars Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs.

So simply put, the Star Forge itself is far more powerful than anyone we discuss here and can end the Force itself. This is providing Malak with powers in a much less literal sense than a strict amp as is assumed. He obtained the Star Forge and uses it in his arsenal to conquer the Republic. Something reflected by Cory J. Herndon in a tweet:

Cory J. Herndon on Twitter wrote:"I think my thoughts at the time were that Malak was in a position to, with Revan, conquer the Republic, and therefore was the most powerful. And I was *definitely* thinking that the Star Forge's power, both in terms of being able to spit out ships and perhaps having a Dark Side connection made him clearly one of the most powerful Sith in history."

In other words, Malak is devastatingly powerful. He has the Star Forge which is far more powerful than either him or Kun or Nadd and in a looser sense provides him powers that are far greater than he himself, Nadd or Kun are. The powers themselves are far greater, Malak isn't.

In comparison to all the above, in the actual KotOR games and source material, which came out after said article. It is established that SF!Bastila Shan is on par with the likes of Vrook Lamar:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:
"The Dark Side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi masters."

Those Jedi Masters include Vrook Lamar per Bastila herself:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:
"Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place."

As well as Zez Kai-Ell and Kavar, who can teach the Force form Force Mastery:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
"It is a great technique that you have learned. Gifted only to the highest of Jedi Masters - and the Sith - this technique makes your Force powers more difficult to resist... and they will last longer as well."

Bastila Shan per her own admission, on the Star Forge, is only as powerful as the aforementioned Jedi Masters, individually. Yet Bastila Shan gives Revan a good fight:

Knights of the Old Republic Official Prima Game Guide wrote:
[/size]Combat is fraught and frantic, but [ends with Revan's] victory.

To such a degree that she can afford to simultaneously close a giant Rakatan door with a 'great' amount of her power:

Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 4420477-2429851518-Krp9o

Knights of the Old Republic wrote:
This door is held closed by some great power.

Bastila also manages to knock back Revan, Juhani and Jolee Bindo in one attack:

Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 4420475-6355540190-Krp9Q

As a Jedi, she also withstands a week of Darth Malak's torture:

Star Wars the Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:Darth Malak tortured the Jedi Bastila Shan for days before she finally succumbed and became his apprentice.

Darth Malak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"You are strong, child. But I will break you."

Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 4420486-3937161875-yal70
Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 4420487-1445163735-vVkpZ

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"I resisted at first. I endured the Sith torments with the passionless serenity of a true Jedi, emptying my mind. But after a week of endless tortures I finally saw the truth."

In fact, it isn't Malak's power that corrupts her. He's incapable of forcing her over. Indeed, as Malak himself puts it:

Bastila Shan & Darth Malak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"You think torture will turn me, Malak? You're a fool."

"Torture? No, dear Bastila. You misunderstand. This is but a taste of the dark side to whet your appetite. When you finally swear loyalty to me. It will be willingly."

So if this incarnation of Bastila is only as powerful as those Jedi Masters are individually, then Traya must dwarf her in power as she was powerful enough to simultaneously Sever Force and Triumvirate Drain all three at once:

SWTOR Codex Entry wrote:
Part of Kreia’s plan involved decimating the Jedi Order. On Dantooine, Kreia severed Masters Vrook Lmar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell from the Force, killing them within the Jedi Enclave.

So not only was Traya more powerful than all three combined, she managed to absorb their power. Yet Darth Traya is not as powerful as Darth Nihilus, by a considerable margin per Traya's own admission:


Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

Perhaps more definitively, we know for a fact that the dark side only gained in power after Darth Malak had died and the Star Forge is destroyed, due to Darth Nihilus' rise in power:

Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Screen36

In fact, if you wanted a direct comparison, the dark side shroud is even stronger during the Dark Wars than it is during the Jedi Civil War:

Bastila Shan wrote:
"We should have felt a disturbance in the Force when the attack came. The fact that we did not is a bad sign. I fear the dark side is growing stronger, casting shadows our vision cannot piece."

Bastila wrote:
"Did you feel that? A disturbance in the Force. The Admiral has sent is message, the Dark Lord knows we are here now. Malak is coming... We better get moving. I can feel the darkness of Malak's presence approaching, and I don't want to be here when he arrives. None of us is a match for the Sith Lord."

In the Dark Wars, the dark side clouded Darth Nihilus, one of the most powerful Sith of all-time, approaching to one of the greatest gatherings of Jedi since the Exar Kun War:

The Conclave At Katarr Codex Entry wrote:
Worse, many Jedi sensed a new Sith threat emerging but could not pinpoint the source. Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order’s Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony.

The dark side was now literally strong enough that it caused palpable terror across the Republic so potent the Sith could feed on it:

The Essential Atlas wrote:
The Sith seemed to have achieved the victory they had long sought. Less than one hundred Jedi, nearly all of them in hiding, survived the Sith's purge. Many citizens took this unimaginable event as proof that the Force had turned malevolent, or that cosmic balance was nothing more than a story for children. Despair was palpable, and many planets offered only halfhearted and ragged defense against Sith attackers. Planets throughout the slice surrendered, and the Sith fed on the psychic misery of a shattered Republic.

Darth Nihilus himself is below or at best, on par with Freedon Nadd. Firstly, Visas Marr his Shadow Hand, deems Nadd 'truly great' merely by sensing his tomb's power:

Visas Marr, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
"I can taste the power of the dark side here. Freedon Nadd must have been truly great to leave such an impact. The echoes of his life are still here."

And furthermore, Kreia states that she fears Nihilus might already be as powerful as some of the ancients whom Nadd is one of the greatest among:


Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
"It is a technique that has been lost for some time. Not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other force sensitives... The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith."

She knows this because she has studied the Telos holocrons:

Chris Avellone wrote:
"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

But even more indicative is that the Triumvirate is actively attempting to resurrect Freedon Nadd:

Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Screen20

Sith Captain, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
"The Sith Master says we'll have reinforcements soon, when I ask for details he says it's a 'surprise'. I hate the ones with a sense of humor."

Darth Nihilus wants Freedon Nadd's power:

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide wrote:
Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight.

Visas Marr, the Shadow Hand of Darth Nihilus, is awe-struck by the power of Nadd's tomb:

Visas Marr, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can taste the power of the dark side here. Freedon Nadd must have been truly great to leave such an impact. The echoes of his life are still here."

Indeed, 'immeasurable' power is granted by Freedon Nadd's taint:

Insider 27 wrote:The Naddists were aided immeasurably by the mystical up welling of the dark-side power of Freedon Nadd still prevalent throughout Onderon.

Even Kreia is impressed:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"Freedon Nadd's power appears to have been underestimated. His legacy lives on within the very stones of his resting place. Anyone attuned to the dark side would have a tremendous advantage here."

Furthermore, a Mandalorian claims the following:

Mandalorian Scout, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"Freedon Nadd was a dark Jedi, he conquered Onderon long ago and became their king. The royal line is directly descended from him. The stories say that he was far worse than Revan and Malak ever were. This place is tainted and the Sith presence here makes the danger great."

And Kreia agrees:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"The soldier is correct. The dark side is strong here... and it will grant its strength to the Sith."

Better yet, Kreia is even more impressed by the Tomb of Marka Ragnos, left in genuine awe:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Script wrote:{barely detectable awe}

“Before you is the tomb of the great Sith Lord Marka Ragnos, a half-breed who possessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the Force."

With Marka Ragnos being more powerful than Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun being more powerful than Ragnos, the demonstratable power makes it clear that even Darth Nihilus, a magnitude above anyone else of his time is likely not even as powerful as Freedon Nadd, and certainly not Marka Ragnos.

Also added a bunch of stuff to the living and spirit parts.
MasterCilghal
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Thu 5 Mar - 11:56
Excellent work.
IG
IG
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Thu 5 Mar - 12:09
Nice job.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Thu 5 Mar - 12:14
Thank you, both.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Sat 14 Mar - 2:54
The first post has been overhauled completely.
Geistalt
Geistalt

Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Sat 14 Mar - 10:20
I'd upvote your Malak quote addendum if I hadn't already spent my two upvotes today.

We can all agree that the only reason Malak has to be comparable to, let alone stronger than, Kun is the Star Forge and its Jedi-draining amp.


I'm reevaluating my position on 3,996 BBY Vitiate in relation to Kun. Kun's meant to be more powerful, at least compared to anyone prior that already existed in the lore at the time TotJ was published. Possibly stronger than Vitiate, if you take supremacy quotes as being "hard caps" the way I do.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Sun 15 Mar - 7:11
Main post further updated with two new quotes.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Tue 17 Mar - 6:17
Added immense quotes, uncovered through my own personal research and Jake's. Including galaxy tier quotes, etc. Please re-read if you've read this before. Thank you.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

on Mon 30 Mar - 8:13
Massively updated the content, added a trove of accolades and feats to both living and spirit Exar Kun posts.
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Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020) - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2020)

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