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HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

September 5th 2019, 6:10 pm
Because whenever something is translated, it never can represent the original meaning and content of the text. Even the most basic sentence is liable to this. Some unknown Spanish source pointing out Vader<Kenobi is completely not valid. I also did not see a source for their claim. Ignoring all of these, the quote you presented was meant to be an early draft which was significantly changed between 1973 and 1976.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

September 5th 2019, 6:11 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:I mean if it was English, it still wouldn't be valid since it was the early testings of characters and scaling.
"Early testings of characters and scaling" are only invalid if they were overridden later on. Lucas's opinion was never stated to have changed, therefore it is still valid. Also wasn't the statement made after ANH came out. Meaning they were already past the "early testings of characters and scaling".

And how do you know Lucas' opinion wasn't changed, or they were already past the testings etc.? Based on what? The Spanish quote does not even present a source and it is bold of you to claim that Lucas' opinion stayed the same towards Vader.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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September 5th 2019, 6:13 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Because whenever something is translated, it never can represent the original meaning and content of the text. Even the most basic sentence is liable to this. Some unknown Spanish source pointing out Vader<Kenobi is completely not valid. I also did not see a source for their claim. Ignoring all of these, the quote you presented was meant to be an early draft which was significantly changed between 1973 and 1976.

I'm not exactly following. I assure you the translation is accurate, if that's your concern. And the source isn't unknown. It's from Star Wars Art Treasures 26.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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September 5th 2019, 6:16 pm
Note that Art Treasures is from the same publisher that gives us Fact Files, Official Starships, and Official Figurine Collection -- i.e. three of our most used sources.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

September 5th 2019, 6:18 pm
Isn’t he the one that said the Kamino cloning platforms were only 70kg? Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 3344068304
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

September 5th 2019, 6:19 pm
Maybe because Luke was already a character being discussed in terms of force power. Meaning this has to be after ANH was completed since ANH Luke has sub padawan proficiency in the force. You do realize the burden of proof is on you in regards to whether Lucas changed his opinion? A quote remains valid until it has been retconned.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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September 5th 2019, 6:19 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Isn’t he the one that said the Kamino cloning platforms were only 70kg? :>

Nah, that's from the Essential Guides, IIRC.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

September 5th 2019, 6:25 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Because whenever something is translated, it never can represent the original meaning and content of the text. Even the most basic sentence is liable to this. Some unknown Spanish source pointing out Vader<Kenobi is completely not valid. I also did not see a source for their claim. Ignoring all of these, the quote you presented was meant to be an early draft which was significantly changed between 1973 and 1976.

I'm not exactly following. I assure you the translation is accurate, if that's your concern. And the source isn't unknown. It's from Star Wars Art Treasures 26.

I don't claim that translation was false. However whenever you translate a script or anything and write an article using the translated text, many mistakes and false informations occur. I browse through many SW content translated to my main language and  they fail to not represent the original sentences, ideas implications etc. That is why I am in many SW groups in Facebook of my language and prevent people to spread false knowledge. I mean if you had seen them, you'd burst out a loud laugh I bet.

Besides, I couldn't find anything towards Star Wars Art Treasures 26, or how from based on what they prepared their articles? I also checked it from https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_media Wookipedia and it isn't even listed.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

September 5th 2019, 6:26 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Maybe because Luke was already a character being discussed in terms of force power. Meaning this has to be after ANH was completed since ANH Luke has sub padawan proficiency in the force. You do realize the burden of proof is on you in regards to whether Lucas changed his opinion? A quote remains valid until it has been retconned.

Look, you do not present any quote or text from the original script and reliable sources so I don't know what the hell are you talking about KoB. Everything you say is about this matter is speculation.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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September 5th 2019, 6:31 pm
I don't claim that translation was false. However whenever you translate a script or anything and write an article using the translated text, many mistakes and false informations occur. I browse through many SW content translated to my main language and  they fail to not represent the original sentences, ideas implications etc. That is why I am in many SW groups in Facebook of my language and prevent people to spread false knowledge. I mean if you had seen them, you'd burst out a loud laugh I bet.

The quote's obviously referring to Lucas's original Ben > Vader quote from the Making of The Empire Strikes Back and The Annotated Screenplay though. It's not like the Spanish authors misinterpreted what Lucas was saying or anything. And it's not hard to translate the meaning back into English. 

Besides, I couldn't find anything towards Star Wars Art Treasures 26, or how from based on what they prepared their articles? I also checked it from https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_media Wookipedia and it isn't even listed.

It's not listed on Wookieepedia (not everything is), but it exists. SW.com even mentions it here: https://www.starwars.com/news/the-official-star-wars-fact-files-return-to-our-galaxy . How do you think I found the quote otherwise? (;
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

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September 5th 2019, 6:32 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:It's not listed on Wookieepedia (not everything is), but it exists. SW.com even mentions it here: https://www.starwars.com/news/the-official-star-wars-fact-files-return-to-our-galaxy . How do you think I found the quote otherwise? (;

You are a resourceful person Ant, that I am sure of. :&gt;
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

September 5th 2019, 6:34 pm
Lol

"The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader.George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two."


Admittedly  when I said that these statements were made after ANH, it was speculation based on logic. However you're focusing too much on the least important part of my argument. Now on to the far more important and really only necessary portion of my argument This quote as shown above stands until you prove Lucas changed his mind. This is how quotes work. The burden of proof is on you. 


Edit: Lmfao I just noticed this quote says "the audience might think back to the first film". So yes my original assumption that the quote was made after ANH was correct.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

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September 5th 2019, 6:40 pm
The issue is the ANH novel portrays Vader as Ben's superior, and that was also supposedly based on the screenplay. Luke's opinion of Ben being>Vader doesn't hold any validity as he also admitted Vader could have destroyed him in ROTJ in the Courtship of Princess Leia book.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
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September 5th 2019, 6:42 pm
@SithSauce wrote:The issue is the ANH novel portrays Vader as Ben's superior, and that was also supposedly based on the screenplay. Luke's opinion of Ben being>Vader doesn't hold any validity as he also admitted Vader could have destroyed him in ROTJ in the Courtship of Princess Leia book.
Care to share the quote for your final claim?
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
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September 5th 2019, 6:45 pm
So to clarify:

1) The initial planning phase idea that Ben is somehow > or >> Vader applies but the initial ESB screenplay where Vader can TP attack Luke from across the galaxy (Mustafar to Dagobah) doesn't count.
2) Luke says Ben was > Vader but his belief that Vader could have stomped him doesn't count.
3) Contrary evidence is required to prove that Lucas stopped believing Ben >> Vader but despite a lack of contrary evidence for Vader, TPing a mid-training Luke from across the galaxy is apparently not taken into account when discussing his power level, despite Luke near a potent dark side nexus and only pushing Vader back because he drew on it and his anger. 

Interesting...
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

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September 5th 2019, 6:46 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@SithSauce wrote:The issue is the ANH novel portrays Vader as Ben's superior, and that was also supposedly based on the screenplay. Luke's opinion of Ben being>Vader doesn't hold any validity as he also admitted Vader could have destroyed him in ROTJ in the Courtship of Princess Leia book.
Care to share the quote for your final claim?
She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.
--The Courtship of Princess Leia
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
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September 5th 2019, 6:48 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:So to clarify:

1) The initial planning phase idea that Ben is somehow > or >> Vader applies but the initial ESB screenplay where Vader can TP attack Luke from across the galaxy (Mustafar to Dagobah) doesn't count.
2) Luke says Ben was > Vader but his belief that Vader could have stomped him doesn't count.

Do you actually want a genuine explanation on why your "but"s are different, or do you want to flaunt rhetorical questions in the wind?  Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1220391476
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 5th 2019, 6:48 pm
Also, technically the 1976 ANH novel's depiction of the fight should take precedent over all succeeding sources since, being ghost-edited by George Lucas, it reflected the original artistic intent and thus serves as one of the highest forms of canon authority.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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September 5th 2019, 6:49 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:So to clarify:

1) The initial planning phase idea that Ben is somehow > or >> Vader applies but the initial ESB screenplay where Vader can TP attack Luke from across the galaxy (Mustafar to Dagobah) doesn't count.
2) Luke says Ben was > Vader but his belief that Vader could have stomped him doesn't count.

Do you actually want a genuine explanation on why your "but"s are different, or do you want to flaunt rhetorical questions in the wind?  Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1220391476
Humour me. Also, they're statements, not questions.


Last edited by BreakofDawn on September 5th 2019, 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
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September 5th 2019, 6:50 pm
Thanks for the reinforcement guys, lol.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 5th 2019, 6:51 pm
Honestly tempted to a blog analysis of the Ben Kenobi vs Vader fight at this point...
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
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September 5th 2019, 6:53 pm
Luke's opinion is irrelevant compared to the numerous OOU sources which say he is = Vader.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

September 5th 2019, 6:54 pm
Cool, so his opinion on Ben and Vader is also irrelevant because it's contradicted by the film, screenplay and the 1976 novel.
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 5th 2019, 6:55 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Honestly tempted to a blog analysis of the Ben Kenobi vs Vader fight at this point...

I hope you don't mind if I drop the Vader vs Kenobi discussion in the other thread, so I can concentrate on more recent debates as I really don't care to address it. If you bring it up again in another thread I might respond, but until then I probably won't.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

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September 5th 2019, 6:56 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Honestly tempted to a blog analysis of the Ben Kenobi vs Vader fight at this point...

Well, do that. It'll come handy for my debate with Ant (Pre-Suit Anakin vs Post-Suit).
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