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SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 19th 2019, 10:19 pm
THIS DEBATE HAS FINISHED. THE VICTOR, @DC77, WILL ADVANCE TO THE NEXT ROUND.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Tyrann10
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This thread is apart of a larger tournament between ten Suspect Insight members. You can read the other debates here:

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Darth Caedus as of Legacy of the Force - Invincible. Darth Vader as of Episode VI - Return of the Jedi.

Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. There will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

  • Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

[hideedit]


Last edited by Suspect Insight on October 5th 2019, 1:55 pm; edited 9 times in total
NotAA3
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on April 20th 2019, 10:11 am
TAEP.
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 20th 2019, 6:23 pm
Money is on Ethan, but my gut tells me DC77 TAEP
ScionOfSkywalker77
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 20th 2019, 6:44 pm
Your gut would be correct in this instance ISV, especially since Ethanion is likely not to post.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) 228124001
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on April 20th 2019, 10:24 pm
Ethan, vader needs defending...
ScionOfSkywalker77
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on April 21st 2019, 5:20 pm

1) Comparison Of Power


A) Maul~Vader


Let's kick this off with a bang. There's a wealth of evidence favouring Jacen in this matchup from superior feats to comparisons of power but let's start with the most obvious comparison that heavily benefits Jacen. Vader has explicitly been labelled as relative to Maul and Dooku in power.

“And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.”
-George Lucas, The Cult Of Darth Vader

Just so there's no misinterpretations being thrown around about this statement, let's look at what the statement is actually about. The entire passage is in reference to Vader's power across the course of his life so when Lucas is talking about Vader being as strong as Sidious and then losing his limbs which makes him become like Maul or Dooku he's obviously referring to them being relative to Vader. Anything else would be a tangent and not relevant to the topic at hand.

B) Caedus>Maul


So why don't we examine the implications of Maul being on Vader's level in power? When it came to his clash against Sidious Maul was overwhelmed by Sidious's speed in their engagement the second Sidious ramped up his power and became more serious which is a stark contrast to how Jacen performed against Luke.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.
-Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Jacen managed to parry a blow despite not having his lightsaber drawn when it began and even physically tag Luke with a kick in combat. Now, I shouldn't have to articulate why Grandmaster Luke Skywalker is more powerful than TCW Darth Sidious but if you are in doubt of it substantiation will be provided in my next post of the debate.

Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.
Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.
But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.
The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.
Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.
-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

In any case the conclusion here is that Jacen is a comfortably more powerful combatant than Maul somebody who is relative to Vader based off him performing better against a much more powerful foe.

2) Feats


In terms of feats Vader lags quite far behind Caedus as well. If we examine what Caedus can do this should become apparent fairly quickly.

A) Illusions


Jacen has several great feats of conjuring up illusions. He's managed to repeatedly fool Luke with them, despite Luke obviously being one of, if not the strongest non entity character in the mythos.

"Mara?" Now Luke's voice was frightened. "What's wrong?"
"Good question," Mara said.
She turned to Jacen, but he only held a finger to his lips and moved his hoverchair closer to Luke. R2-D2 emitted a confused whistle and raised a hydraulic extension with a medical sensor at the end.
"Mara!" Luke turned and hit the emergency summons button next to Mara's bed, but Jacen made a motion with his hands and the button did not depress. Luke did not seem to realize this. He turned back to Mara and placed his fingers to her throat, checking her pulse. "I can't feel a pulse. Artoo, call an EmDee droid. Tell her to hurry!"
R2-D2 spun toward the data jack to obey, but Jacen used the Force to disable the power to the droid's treads.
Mara caught Jacen's gaze. "All right, Jacen. This has gone far enough."
Not yet. The message reverberated without words inside Mara's head. He must learn.
Mara felt another wave of Force energy pass over her, and Luke cried out in horror and looked toward R2-D2. "Artoo, what's taking you so long?"
R2-D2 issued a frustrated whistle and spun an accusing photoreceptor toward Jacen. Luke could take it no longer. He raised a hand and began to fill it with life-giving Force energy.
"Jacen, we can't wait. We have to revive her ourselves." He pointed at the emergency respirator hanging on the wall. "Get the respirator."
Luke leaned over Mara and started to place his hand on her chest-until Jacen raised an arm and pushed him away.
"Jacen!" Luke screamed. "What's wrong with you?"
"Nothing," Jacen said calmly. "And there's nothing wrong with Aunt Mara."
Luke's gaze swung back to Mara, and she could not decide whether he looked more stunned or relieved. "You're . . . you're alive again!"
"I was never dead," Mara said. "I think Jacen is trying to make a point."
-Dark Nest: The Swarm War

Jacen cloaked Lumiya in a Force illusion and projected his own unconcerned calm as Luke approached. It was an exhausting manoeuvre, nothing beyond him when dealing with ordinary people, but something that took all his strength when deceiving a Jedi Master of Luke's stature.
Luke strode toward them and glanced back over his shoulder a couple of times as if someone were following him. He acknowledged Jacen stiffly and paid Lumiya no more than polite attention, as if his mind was more on what was down the corridor.
Jacen strained to hold the Force illusion steady, like a ball of heat within his chest that he had to balance to keep it from touching his rib cage. That was exactly how it felt. And Lumiya . . . Lumiya, somehow nestled in miniature within that ball of heat, felt not vengeful or trying to disguise her intentions, but genuinely worried about being discovered before her work was complete.
-Legacy Of The Force: Bloodlines

He's also managed to create illusions potent enough to convince Fondor shield guards to lower the shields despite not even being on Fondor at the time, or even knowing where they were, whilst also simultaneously enduring a backlash of negative emotion from the battle link he established with his crew aboard the Anakin Solo that was weakening his force powers and blocking his senses.

The dam burst in him, but it found a river channel. Caedus saw what the Fondorians operating the shield facility might see; he had no idea what the actual location looked like, but he didn't need to waste his strength projecting his consciousness to actually observe. Any imagined scene would do to focus him as the torrent of anger and raw nerves of a hundred or more commanders poured back through him. He pictured the shield generator plant, the control room, imagining it much as any other power plant in the industrialized galaxy: a wall covered in readouts and status lights, and rows of consoles around him where other workers kept an eye on the integrity of the shield and ensured that a constant power level fed it. There would be a message system, possibly an illuminated board updating staff on the security alert level, too. The exact details didn't matter, he knew, as long as he could imagine enough about what was happening in their minds to be able to latch on to some breeze of a thought in the Force, and slip into their world.
It was like listening for a particular noise or vibration when tuning a speeder drive. He always knew which sounds were normal, and which-however faint, however close to the threshold of his hearing-shouldn't have been there and indicated a problem. Once he heard that sound, it was the only one he could hear, blanking out all others.
Caedus dropped into that white noise of the feelings and thoughts of billions on Fondor, and heard the one repeating note out of kilter with the rest. He focused. In seconds, it filled his head to the exclusion of all else.
He was aware of solid, real beings moving around him on the ship, but he was now more aware of the shield generator facility five kilometres east of Oridin and the minds of the control room team.
There were more of them than usual, he could feel that. There was a sense of having strangers around, as if they'd called in extra staff and were running emergency operations, which fitted a facility that probably ran on standby with droids and a caretaker crew most of the time.
The fleet needs to shelter.
Caedus concentrated on projecting an impression that the GA Fleet and its allies had been driven off, and now ships needed to return to base under the protection of the shield. There was urgency in it, because many of the vessels were damaged and needed to land before atmosphere vented or hulls gave way.
Open up. Let us in.
He flooded the operators' minds with an urge to get the ships to safety as soon as possible, all kinds of worries and concerns about family members who might be on board, a burning sense of saving people, of pulling out all the stops...
Now. Drop the shields, we're going to crash, let us through, for pity's sake help us...
"Shields down!" It wasn't Nevil's voice, but that of the weapons officer. Caedus was still drifting in that fog of minds, drowning in their panic and urgency, and not here with the ship that was going to unleash their worst night-mare. "Cone section, fire when ready..."
-Legacy Of The Force: Revelation

B) Force Barrier


Jacen has a variety of great feats in regards to shielding himself from danger. The first example of this would be shielding himself from a barrage of about twenty bolts of cannon fire from an assault cruiser. Note that the full force of a single blast on a lightsaber blade could drive Zekk to his knees.

A blue cascade of cannon bolts began to sweep across the dune, its deep thump-thumping an almost gentle counter-point to the crashing roar of the turbolasers. Jaina and Zekk stood expectant for what seemed an eternity. There was no use trying to run or take cover. Drop ship weapons systems were designed to spread a carpet of death around their landing zones. Often, they laid fire as thick as twenty bolts a square meter.
...
Zekk took a cannon blast full on his blade and was driven to his knees.
...
Jaina spun away from another attack and glimpsed Jacen and Tahiri standing back-to-back, Jacen holding his hand above their heads, cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before.
-Dark Nest: The Swarm War

Jacen has also managed to shield himself and his vehicle from an explosion that damaged or ripped apart every building in a two hundred meter radius.

Jacen jerked his head around, suddenly seized by such a powerful sense of immediate danger that his instinct was to fling himself on Niathal and wrap the taxi tight in a Force shield. The vessel bucked hard as if it had been hit by a tidal wave. There was a second of silence before a deafening whump shook it like a box and they were caught in an instant blizzard of what seemed to be glittering snow. It hammered the hull as Jacen fought to hold the taxi steady, oblivious of the pilot's efforts.
Shattered transparisteel.
It seemed to go on for minutes. The pilot was shouting. Jacen straightened up, staring into the rapidly blinking eye of a shaken Niathal, and knew that they had caught the tail end of a huge explosion.

Jacen could feel what had happened, but it was still a shocking sight. Ahead of them, the skylanes seemed to be a gaping hole of nothing-as if a whole mass of speeders had fallen out of the sky, which they clearly had-and for a hundred meters the buildings on either side were like jagged, open mouths. Each transparisteel frontage had been blown out. The Force was torn with anger and fear and shock. The unnatural silence was broken by emergency klaxons and echoing shouts. Jacen realized the taxi's screens had collapsed into the cabin, although still in one piece.
-Legacy Of The Force: Bloodlines

C) Telekinesis


To establish a baseline for Jacen's telekinetic abilities he's managed to ragdoll Y-wings without difficulty.

Jacen reached out and pulled a handful of air toward him. Simultaneously the Y-wing's ion jet pods skidded backward across the duracrete, sending up showers of sparks, just until the starfighter's nose slid off the barrier and crashed to the ground, facing directly into the duracrete.
Then he added a twisting motion, and the Y-wing rotated along its long axis, crashing onto the taxiing strip upside down.
-Legacy Of The Force: Betrayal

However, that's barely scratching the surface. Jacen has been able to hold the Falcon together as it dealt with atmospheric re-entry and a damaged drive that would have otherwise caused cracks to spread without even being present at the time, but rather projecting his telekinetic strength through Leia, a feat that was so impressive it shocked Luke.

That was what he needed to know. He was certain now that his mother was using the Force to stop the cracks in the drive housing from spreading and ripping the Falcon apart as the ship reentered the atmosphere. It was a massive task. She needed help.
Jacen filled his lungs with a long, slow breath and centered himself to try something he had never attempted before.
Mom, I hope you can handle this.
He pictured Leia sitting in the copilot's seat. Her emotions and her presence in the Force washed over him and he visualized himself in her place, behind her eyes, seeing what she saw. For a moment he was simply observing; but then a feeling like a sigh drained out of him and it was as if he were exhaling an infinite breath into his mother-no, through his mother. Now he was no longer sitting in the alcove between two topiary bushes, but staring at an array of lights and readouts and at hands that weren't his. Beyond the console, Coruscant loomed in the viewport.
If Jaina had joined the effort, she was hardly detectable. He had drowned out her presence in his own mind with the sheer strength of the telekinesis he was projecting.
Take this, Mom. Use me. Use the Force I'm channeling through you.
He heard her say "Uh!" as if something had startled her. Then he could feel pressure in his lungs as if he were running hard and fighting for breath. He had no idea how long it lasted. But he had the sense of clutching something tight to his chest, and an awareness somewhere outside his mind and yet at its core showed him the Falcon enveloped in the Force, the hull around her drive assembly compressed instead of expanding catastrophically.
He was sure he wasn't seeing what his mother was actually looking at, because he had none of the images of entering the atmosphere or landing. The scenes inside the Falcon's cockpit were being supplied by his memory. He was simultaneously aware both of that rational fact and that his Force power was being funneled through his mother, helping her hold the drive assembly in place by telekinesis.
Then relief swept over him like a wave, making his scalp tingle and his heart pound. The Falcon was down safely. He knew it. Now he could open his eyes. When he did, he was almost surprised to find himself still in the grounds of the Temple in broad daylight.
-Legacy Of The Force: Bloodlines

Furthermore, when entering a hangar, Jacen managed to slow his StealthX which was accelerating rapidly whilst simultaneously holding it steady to avoid a crash, an excellent display of telekinetic strength and skill.

The orange tunnel rushed up to meet him faster than he expected and he jerked the yoke back. Nothing snagged him; he didn't feel it, anyway. He couldn't look back. But he felt Luke's moment of horror at a near hit, buying him seconds that he needed to shoot underneath the Star Destroyer and come back along its length toward one of the hangar decks.
"Anakin Solo, emergency landing, damaged StealthX One-One-open Five-Alpha Hangar..."
He could have sworn he snapped off the tip of a commmast. He was holding the fighter steady as much by the Force as by its controls, and trying to slow it with the Force as well, because the braking burn wasn't enough. He had to drop into that slot just right or he'd take the section out with him.
I could have activated the transponder, let them track me for the last few seconds, but I can't pinpoint the Jedi...
Too late.
Caedus stopped thinking and felt. He was braking with everything he had. Coming out of the blackness of space, the hangar lights were sudden and blinding, and then he realized they were sparks. He was skidding across the hangar deck. The bulkhead filled his view; the arrester baffle caught him. He was flung against what felt like a permacrete wall. As the lights around dimmed and he couldn't see through the canopy any longer, he had a foolish moment of thinking he was dying.
No, you've done that. Doesn't feel like this.
-Legacy Of The Force: Revelation

To wrap things up Jacen has showed decisive telekinetic superior to his sister Jaina while in critical condition (He had a hole in his shoulder, a shattered kneecap, a crushed ankle, only one arm and a wound in his gut).

The invisible fist of a Force blast slammed Jaina in the chest and sent her flying back, her breath groaning from her lungs and her lightsaber hissing free of Caedus's stomach. From the fight on Nickel One, she had learned the dangers of letting her head snap back on impact. She tucked her chin, then fought to hold it there as she struck the durasteel wall on the far side of the corridor.
...
Letting his lightsaber deactivate and drop to the floor, he reached toward her, making a twisting motion with his hand.
Jaina felt her chin twisting around and went with it, using the Force to accelerate her whole body into a spin, still leaping toward Caedus, bringing her lightsaber around in a clearing arc.
...
Caedus didn't even try. He simply glanced toward the open mouth of the fusion incinerator. In the next instant Jaina felt herself rushing toward its searing heat, and it took all her Force strength to pull herself aside the half meter that saved her life.
But the durasteel into which she slammed was still scorching, and the pain of impact was nothing compared to the sizzling shock of merely contacting the furnace exterior. She dropped to the floor screaming in rage and anguish, her nostrils filled with the stench of singed hair and charred skin, the black GAG utilities still burning on her back.
...
All she needed was to get past his lightsaber and attack the armless side of his body-before she collapsed herself, or he recovered enough to kill her with one last Force blast.
-Legacy Of The Force: Invincible

3) Conclusion


I think the result of this matchup is fairly obvious, aside from the direct comparison of power (There are others as well but as of now this should be sufficient) Jacen also has much better showings of force power (Some of which have been saved for subsequent posts), and to be entirely honest Vader is out of his league here.
That's all for now folks, hope you enjoyed my opener.


Last edited by DC77 on April 21st 2019, 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
ScionOfSkywalker77
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 21st 2019, 5:21 pm
Transferred.
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 21st 2019, 5:33 pm
Solid opener, looking forward to the rebuttal.
ScionOfSkywalker77
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 21st 2019, 5:43 pm
@ILS Thanks.
Reynard (Ethanion)
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on April 21st 2019, 10:04 pm
Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith



This post is going to try and cut down on dumb bullcrap, so I’ll make my core argument, and address things relevant to the fight in question. (BTW thanks for making the Sheev apprentice comparison, that helps a wee bit).

Luke Skywalker using the Darkside is more powerful than Knightfall Vader, deal with it.
“He rushed to his father with a frenzy he had never known. Nor had Vader.”
Pg 158, Return of the Jedi novelization

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-5639158
Return of the Jedi comic book
Luke attacks Vader with a frenzy that Vader had not known, either had Luke, meaning of course it’s self inclusive. “But that’s only an emotional frenzy”.
Okay. Sure. What exactly are the requirements for Anakin to become so powerful?
“A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker’s mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too. It is that simple, and that complex. And it is final.”
Pg 81, Revenge of the Sith novelization
“But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.”
Pg 82, Revenge of the Sith novelization

What then are the requirements for Knightfall Vader? “I mean there’s no way that just some emotional state can result in a being so powerful, right?” Maybe so, but I see no other requirement, yes his power did in fact grow, but the implication is that it is do to his intent and lack of restraint, both of which Luke possesses.

I really don’t see what else you need here, but even if you read the scenes they are the same story, same thing is happening. Like feel free to add some other bullshit requirement to Anakin’s power, but it’s made fairly clear what that requirement is, and Luke meets it as well. Like, identify the requirement and explain why it matters if you like, but I doubt there is anything to be found. But anywho, just compare the fights.
“Each stroke of Luke’s saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.”
Pg 159, Return of the Jedi novelization
“When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto’s fist cracks out from Anakin’s childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.
When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker’s gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.”
Pg 83, Revenge of the Sith novelization
You can not tell me these are not the exact same thing, and if you can, do it, I dare you.

Despite this, Vader deals with this reasonably well.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) 1300-5639159
Return of the Jedi comic book
Especially of course, considering he is hindered.
“Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised.”
Pg 157, Return of the Jedi novelization

Compare Vader’s defense being powerful and relentless to, if anything, someone stronger than the Anakin Dooku fought (considering again, Vader is hindered) and you’ll see why this is a big deal.
“Dooku’s decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless.”
Pg 82, Revenge of the Sith novelization

At this point I'm done, I was going to address Caedus and crap, maybe add some feats but whatever, I can do that next post.
This post was only to address DS ROTJ Luke, I need to collect some more info before I can properly address Caedus, because as it seems atm, this scaling would benifit Caedus as well, I'll explain why this is not the case in my next post.
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on April 21st 2019, 10:31 pm
Post was decent.
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on April 21st 2019, 11:54 pm
Disappointing Ethan. Not because of the quality of the post. Not at all, but because you and I have literally spit-balled more supporting evidences back and forth, as the creator of this idea that ROTJ luke > KFV I can tell you for sure with certainty that this argument is way more supported, and can be substantiated far better IMO.

With that said, aside from the lack of what this post could have been, a fine post nonetheless. SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) 1289255181
ScionOfSkywalker77
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on April 23rd 2019, 11:43 am
Rebuttal will be up later today.
ScionOfSkywalker77
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on April 23rd 2019, 4:52 pm
Forget it, rebuttal will be up tomorrow.
dark-sith123
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on April 23rd 2019, 4:58 pm
It's a good start. Interested to see how this debate will go down.
ScionOfSkywalker77
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on April 24th 2019, 1:50 pm

1) Rebuttals: Addressing The ROTJ Luke Bullshit


A) Congratulations And Reflection


First off I'd like to congratulate Ethanion for making my job easy with his post, the non existent logic really helped the rebuttal proceed without issue. How one can craft a post absent of any thought process was previously lost on me until I saw this post. I'd like to point out the most obvious part about Ethanion's post, that it contained no actual rebuttal to my scaling which as far as I'm concerned is still as valid as they come. I could realistically leave this post as a blank wall and I'd still be winning this debate because not only has no actual counter been provided but there's no connection between what's present in Ethanion's opener and Caedus, like none at all. Furthermore I'd like to call attention to the second, rather obvious factor present in Ethanion's post, that being the fact that ROTJ Luke absolutely curbstomped Vader (The fight was over in 40 seconds, during which Vader spent the entire time backpeddling) so even if I agree to his arguments in favour of ROTJ Luke his post is still worthless. Essentially he wasted a post establishing... absolutely nothing. However everything he said about ROTJ Luke was wrong regardless so let's go over this.

B) Response


To begin Ethanion's argument was based on the idea that Luke is greater than KF Vader as of ROTJ because of the following:

>He's stated to be in a frenzy Vader's never known before.
>Said frenzy is self inclusive.

How Ethanion got the conclusion that ROTJ Luke is KF Vader+ because of him being in a greater frenzy is beyond me. A frenzy is a state or period of uncontrolled excitement or wild behaviour (Source: Google). Does that sound like it's power related to you SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) 1668617588? The idea here is that Vader has never seen such erratic or uncontrolled behaviour from an individual assaulting him before, not that he's never seen anybody this powerful before. Which brings me onto my next point...

Why would Vader's thoughts on Luke's frenzy be self inclusive, Luke is thinking from the perspective of the person in the frenzy (Obviously given he's the one in said frenzy) while Vader is thinking from the perspective of someone witnessing the frenzy (Given he's the one seeing it first hand and is being brutally assaulted by Luke), ergo Luke's never been in such a frenzy before and Vader's never witnessed someone in a frenzy like Luke's before. Just because Luke is thinking of himself doesn't mean Vader is given their respective roles.

2) New Arguments: The Power Of Kyle Katarn


A) Jerec


I'd like to provide a second method of comparison between Caedus and Vader, a backup of sorts (There might be another in my third post as well). Jerec has explicitly been noted as a rival to Vader in power "His embrace of the Force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's" (Source: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2 Game Manual).

B) Kyle Katarn


Despite this he is unable to achieve anything against Kyle with the force despite catching him off guard, "The Dark Jedi drew upon the energy that leaked out of the Valley, gave it shape, and hurled the construct at Kyle's chest. The blast threw the Rebel backward onto the loading ramp. He staggered and had just managed to re-establish his footing when a second, more powerful explosion hurled him back into the cargo ship. The lock sensed his presence, and the hatch started to close. The ramp disintegrated." (Source: Dark Forces: Jedi Knight) indicating that while Katarn may not be Vader tier he's far from fodder to Vader or Jerec. Note that this is while Kyle is fodder with barely any training or experience. It follows that with proper experience Kyle would be Vader/Jerec level.

C) Darth Caedus


And now we're at an end. Katarn was of course defeated by Caedus despite having the backing of an entire strike team, each of which he was capable of coordinating with seamlessly. Throw in the fact that Caedus was still a week or so off recovering from his duel with Luke which occurred mere days before and caused him to have his stamina drained within 40 seconds of fighting to the point where fodder Jedi were capable of giving him headaches and he was getting tagged by blaster fire and it becomes inconceivable Katarn is a remotely close to Caedus alone despite being a solid Vader level lightsaber combatant/force wielder. That plus my original comparison and the feats provided alongside it it (That you've yet to refute) renders the idea that Vader can win this match utterly preposterous.


Last edited by DC77 on April 24th 2019, 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
dark-sith123
dark-sith123

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 24th 2019, 2:53 pm
SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) 1668617588
Promising...
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 27th 2019, 6:54 am
Pretty little rebutal but that work well. Good job @DC77
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 27th 2019, 7:58 am
@xolthol @dark-sith123 Thanks lads.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 27th 2019, 1:20 pm
Very good post.
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 27th 2019, 5:21 pm
TheMuser
TheMuser

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on April 27th 2019, 10:21 pm
This debate is bringing the HEAT. Lets go dude!
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on May 8th 2019, 5:16 pm
Ethanion didn't post and as a result I will be proceeding to the next round.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) 228124001
dark-sith123
dark-sith123

SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on May 8th 2019, 5:30 pm
The man can't even get an extension like twin Homeward Pound did?  🇪🇭
This sounds awfully like someone that would rather run away from the debate rather than be a part of it. Why is that so? I wonder... SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) 1019854026 SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) 1019854026
Azronger
Azronger
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten -  Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion)

on May 9th 2019, 4:16 am
Yeah, looks like Ethanion's time expired. DC77 has the right to claim victory here.
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