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The Witness
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on April 21st 2019, 8:36 pm
My picks,
Overrated: Count Dooku, Exar Kun, Anakin Skywalker, Ventress, Ahsoka Tano, Tenebrous
Underrated: Darth Bane, Darth Zannah, Qui Gon, Malgus, , pretty much every KOTOR 2 character, Mace Windu, TPM Maul (or Maul in general)
What are your picks?


Last edited by The Witness on December 13th 2019, 4:54 am; edited 3 times in total
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on April 21st 2019, 8:37 pm
Some underrated ones I'm particularly fond of currently: Qui-Gon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plaguies (to an extent), Tenebrous, Kreia maybe.
Set, The God of Chaos
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on April 21st 2019, 8:43 pm
Literally, no one wanks Dooku besides me and a couple of others lmao.

Anyway, in terms of underrated characters, I agree with your picks (besides Mace). For overrated I'm not sure tbh.
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on April 21st 2019, 9:32 pm
Vader's massively underrated for sure.
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on April 22nd 2019, 1:15 am
Tresina Lobi is extremely underrated. I made a post yesterday on CV to explain how good she is, i think i’ll transfer it here as a blog. I also consider Krieia and Kenobi quite underrated.
As for the overrated ones, clearly Darth Nihilus.
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on April 22nd 2019, 2:37 am
overrated: Sidious, Kun, Vader, Plagueis
underrated Bane, Kreia, Thanaton, Jaina
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on April 22nd 2019, 5:58 am
@xolthol Tbh I've never seen Plagueis or Vader overrated these days. Maybe a couple years ago....


Last edited by DeadlyJedi on April 22nd 2019, 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
ScionOfSkywalker77
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on April 22nd 2019, 7:30 am
Overrated: Sidious, Vader, Tenebrous, Kenobi, Maul, Windu.

Underrated: Caedus, Plagueis, Dooku, Bane Trilogy Characters, Malgus.
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on April 22nd 2019, 8:44 am
Caedus, Plagueis and Dooku are NOT underrated
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on April 22nd 2019, 8:48 am
Lomi Plo and UnuThul are underrated, tbh.
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on April 22nd 2019, 9:22 am
@DeadlyJedi Given after he was debunked Caedus was lowballed for years I would definitely call him "underrated". Sure his current placement is more reasonable than what was held several years ago, that doesn't mean he's not.

Plagueis is underrated by certain people but you're right, in general he's not underrated.

As far as Dooku is concerned given there are people (Including you) that still think he's Maul/Vader tier and not firmly above either (It's not a stomp against either of them, but it's not particularly close either).

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on April 22nd 2019, 9:23 am
He is below Vader lmfao.
'
The mere fact that people still( however few) put him above Vader is proof that he is overrated
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on April 22nd 2019, 9:26 am
@Azronger wrote:Vader's massively underrated for sure.
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on April 22nd 2019, 9:32 am
@LOTL Vader being above Dooku is baseless, Dooku's ability to dismiss Kenobi with TK while DS Anakin is breathing down his neck is leagues ahead of anything Vader has displayed, given he can't even dismiss a weaker Kenobi with TK under more favourable circumstances (Not being attacked 2V1).
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on April 22nd 2019, 10:55 am
Dismissing Kenobi and battling Anakin at the same time is something even Ventress has done. Your point? It is a showing of catching him off guard, not a showing of raw power and not only are there numerous examples in the lore but also a quote that explicitly says that both him and his apprentice do well alone, not in team duels and literally almost every example attests to that.

Kenobi in ANH is not weaker in the force lmfao. If anything, he is stronger. He is weaker in overall combat
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on April 22nd 2019, 11:06 am
@LOTL The quote which states Kenobi performs worse in team duels refers to the start of TCW when they lacked coordination (Their duel against Savage in TCW and Dooku in AOTC being prime examples of this). It makes little sense for this to be referring to ROTS given the numerous points made about their team coordination in Late TCW/ROTS, which is especially clear when they do the inverse of what they did in AOTC in the ROTS duel against Dooku (An example highlighted by your quote). Furthermore there's no indication Kenobi was "Caught off guard" as you nonsensically conclude but rather Dooku was to quick for him to defend against. Kenobi has been dismissed by Dooku's TK thrice, twice in the same duel. It's abundantly clear that all Dooku needs to do is provide an opening for himself (Which he's demonstrated time and time again he can do) to ragdoll Kenobi which explains why Kenobi can parry his force based attacks when employing an active barrier and bracing himself beforehand yet is unable to do so when Dooku off balances him. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

You want the short version: Dooku can and has dismissed Kenobi with TK while at a disadvantage.
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on April 22nd 2019, 11:07 am
DC77 wrote:@LOTL Vader being above Dooku is baseless, Dooku's ability to dismiss Kenobi with TK while DS Anakin is breathing down his neck is leagues ahead of anything Vader has displayed, given he can't even dismiss a weaker Kenobi with TK under more favourable circumstances (Not being attacked 2V1).
Wut?
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on April 22nd 2019, 11:08 am
Underrated. Soara Antana, Yaddle, and Darth Venamis.

Overrated. Can't think of any non-polarizing examples tbh.
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on April 22nd 2019, 11:09 am
@LSDMB I mean technically he wasn't full on Dark Side yet but he was using his fury against Dooku which I'm guessing is what DC77 is referring to.
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on April 22nd 2019, 11:17 am
@LSDMB Couldn't think of a better way to describe him to be honest. But yeah I'm referring to the part where his strength begins to gradually increase over the course of the fight due to his fury.
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on April 22nd 2019, 11:28 am
I'm pretty sure Anakin was beating Dooku even before Kenobi was taken out in the ROTS novel. Dooku even hand to resort to his force powers by throwing chairs and tables at him. Maybe @Darthant66 knows more about it as he is pretty knowledgeable on Anakin.
It's been about a year since I read the ROTS novel, should give it another read some time.
People say Dooku was at a disadvantage during that fight. But his fighting style is suited to taking on multiple oponents. And it's not as if Dooku knew he was at a disadvantage from the beginning, he was perfectly confident to fight them in the first place. Even trying to off balance Anakin with dun moch, which backfired completely.
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on April 22nd 2019, 11:43 am
@DeadlyJedi

I'm pretty sure Anakin was beating Dooku even before Kenobi was taken out in the ROTS novel. Dooku even hand to resort to his force powers by throwing chairs and tables at him. wrote:

In the ROTS Novel sure Anakin was battering him but the passage where this occurs never actually happens in the most thematically relevant depiction of events (the film). Moreover, even if the passage did happen it still isn't particularly relevant given Dooku was incredibly tired by that point anyway as confirmed by the novel and script. As for Dooku throwing tables that happens way before Anakin starts battering him and also once again doesn't happen in the film.


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on April 22nd 2019, 11:43 am
DC77 wrote:@LOTL The quote which states Kenobi performs worse in team duels refers to the start of TCW when they lacked coordination (Their duel against Savage in TCW and Dooku in AOTC being prime examples of this). It makes little sense for this to be referring to ROTS given the numerous points made about their team coordination in Late TCW/ROTS, which is especially clear when they do the inverse of what they did in AOTC in the ROTS duel against Dooku (An example highlighted by your quote). Furthermore there's no indication Kenobi was "Caught off guard" as you nonsensically conclude but rather Dooku was to quick for him to defend against. Kenobi has been dismissed by Dooku's TK thrice, twice in the same duel. It's abundantly clear that all Dooku needs to do is provide an opening for himself (Which he's demonstrated time and time again he can do) to ragdoll Kenobi which explains why Kenobi can parry his force based attacks when employing an active barrier and bracing himself beforehand yet is unable to do so when Dooku off balances him. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

You want the short version: Dooku can and has dismissed Kenobi with TK while at a disadvantage.

Their duel with Savage happened almost into the last year of the war and no, the quote does not say anything about the timeline, only about "why" the Jedi are hindered in team battles on the cases that they work together. The reasons mentioned in the quote apply to ROTS just as much as they do to any point in their timeline, moreover, their team coordination improved considering that they had to face armies of droids, not powerful force users

Nothing about AoTC or early TCW was mentioned in the quote. Only Savage and a logical reason why they are hindered which applies to any point in the timeline.

there's no indication Kenobi was "Caught off guard" as you nonsensically conclude



I don't conclude anything, it is outright stated. I get that you repeatedly spamming "there is absolutely nothing that says abc and blah blah blah is nonsense" is a way to show false bluster but you might want to choose your words more carefully.

Coming to the idiotic assertion that he can dismiss Kenobi because he was faster, obviously he was faster lmfao. All he has to do is gesture with his hands, but Obi Wan has to cover some amount of distance with his legs. Literally who did you think could do that more quickly than the other?

He has only been dismissed by Dooku's tk once. Unless you conclude that force pushing means conventional "dismissing", and the other was when Kenobi left himself open to strike at him.
Tell you what, Ventress has dismissed Kenobi numerous times and you see, even in the cases that had his apprentice battling her. That didn't stop either of them tooling her alone

The "opening" you refer to is not about the Count creating it, it is about Kenobi leaving himself open. That was his mistake. But then again, you see it happen literally almost every time he is in a team duel, but it doesn't happen when he battles solo so maybe, there is a pattern.

To address the Kenobi argument, in universe it is made clear that Kenobi left himself open only because he saw that Anakin alone was more than enough and he could sneak up on the Count and disarm him. He took that approach right until he was on top of Dooku, but Dooku pushed Anakin away and floored him by a kick, for more than 10 seconds

By the time Kenobi realizes this, it is too late. This much is stated pretty clearly.

In a conventional one-on-one situation this won't happen. Because Kenobi does not have to rely on his teammate to be 100% perfect all the time, he will not base his entire attacking strategy in such a way that leaves himself open. He did that only because he assumed that Dooku would still be engaged with Anakin not because Dooku somehow managed to create an opening 10 metres away

Using the logic you ascribe to, Ventress>Vader because she has dismissed Kenobi numerous times and in the battles involving Anakin too. You see, she has even done it to both of them together multiple times simultaneously, and obviously she has exploited openings to do that. Yet, alone, they miraculously tool her and suddenly she is unable to exploit openings( note that her style is similar to Dooku's style). Maybe, it is not so obvious? Maybe the battles are more complex than the simplistic notion you ascribe to?

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on April 22nd 2019, 11:47 am
Oh my lord lmao. It's really tempting to refute this but I'll leave it for our CaV.
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on April 22nd 2019, 12:11 pm
ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:In the ROTS Novel sure Anakin was battering him but the passage where this occurs never actually happens in the most thematically relevant depiction of events (the film). Moreover, even if the passage did happen it still isn't particularly relevant given Dooku was incredibly tired by that point anyway as confirmed by the novel and script. As for Dooku throwing tables that happens way before Anakin starts battering him and also once again doesn't happen in the film.

Posting this as a reminder to respond to this tomorrow afternoon.
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