SS - The Father of Mortis TCWS3 (Gråy) VS Darth Sidious ROTS (Vaelias)

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THE FATHER OF MORTIS (TCWS3)    VS    DARTH SIDIOUS (ROTS)

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                 Gråy    vs    Vaelias

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We’ll start out with the implications inside the narrative, then move to external statements to establish a baseline for the Father’s power:

“Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka Tano investigated the kilometers-wide artifact, and were drawn into a paradise realm inhabited by unspeakably powerful Force-wielders”

This description is unique to the Ones. It suggests that their abilities are on a cosmic or transcendent scale, which is supported by their next description as “God-Like Beings” due to their extraordinary Force abilities and their roles in maintaining the balance of the Force within Mortis. “These god-like beings were locked in an eternal struggle for dominance, which made Mortis the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force.” Eternal speaks more to their immortality, but the next causal phrase underscores just how vast their influence is. In other words, the outcome of the struggle within Mortis has far-reaching consequences that extend beyond the realm itself. Now let’s look at the Father’s descriptions.

“In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can.” This phrase highlights that the Father has a unique and unparalleled mastery of the Force. By stating that no known mortals of the galaxy can wield the Force in the same ways as the Ones of Mortis, it underscores their exceptional nature. It implies that their powers are not only extraordinary but also beyond the reach of even the most powerful mortal Force user in the galaxy.

Here we’re given some indication as to how long they’ve existed for: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1143924818291478803/1145035894861070347/Screen_Shot_2023-08-26_at_12.43.47_PM.png?ex=656b5ec7&is=6558e9c7&hm=eab9ca0d7c5170d3a77a2ababb69baaf9af3692dee58b345362fa1b32dff77c8&=&format=webp&width=1920&height=254

At the bare minimum, 2,000 years. Furthermore, we know why they are on Mortis: “He explains that he and his children can manipulate the Force like no other, which made it necessary for them to withdraw from the temporal world.” This reinforces the idea that they are unique and extraordinary Force-wielders who, because of their unparalleled abilities, chose to isolate themselves from the temporal world to avoid potential consequences or disruptions caused by their power.

Chee is on record stating that the most powerful Force user to date is none other than the Father.

“George sat me down and started explaining to me that they’re these gods and they wield the Force they’re much more powerful than any Jedi Knights and this one can turn into a gargoyle and this one can turn into a griffin.” His statement aligns with their portrayal as enigmatic, god-like beings with unparalleled Force abilities, which is hinted at in the beginning of the episode describing them as beings “more powerful with the Force than any Jedi has seen before.” It was “difficult” for Filoni to work out the logic of the dagger as a weapon that can kill “these ultra-beings.”

It becomes clear that the intent for The Father was to establish him, along with the Ones, as the most powerful beings to ever exist, to the point where they are deified. Now, we can move on to IU statements that support this.

“In this realm are three godlike beings that are physical personifications of Force aspects: The Daughter is the light, the Son is the dark, and their Father is the balance.” In essence, their power is derived from their direct link to the Force's most foundational elements. This connection allows them to exist on a level of power and significance that goes far beyond mortal beings. We see this in Bendu, whom we’ll discuss later.

The dagger of Mortis is stated as “the only weapon capable of killing the three avatars of the Force.” The Ones are “The three most powerful bearers of the Force” capable of “shaping the planet at will, according to their internal state.” Mortis was “home to three improbably powerful Force beings” and could “alter their landscape to suit themselves-or when their mood affected it.”

The Son and Daughter are scaled in a similar manner, and the Father was more powerful than both of them, their biggest indicator of how powerful they were comes from the “realization that they could tear the very fabric of our universe," which goes beyond anything previously encountered. It elevates these characters to a cosmic scale, placing them in a category of their own when it comes to Force mastery.

This would scale the Father above the likes of Bendu, who is “a little more in that realm” and also shows unprecedented Force abilities. Bendu is described as a “life force,” and “He’s not the dark side or the light — he’s something greater.” He’s powerful enough to the extent where he’s compared to “divine forces,” which is supported by Filoni stating he’s comparable in nature to Mortis beings/Force priestesses/extension, and influenced by Tom Bombadil who existed outside the traditional power structure and who was IU beyond the effects of mortals, similar to Bendu. This is tied together by Martin holding all of them as immortal and Bendu being “beyond your power to destroy” (in reference to Thrawn) underscoring the notion of their deified status. Even while holding back, Bendu creates an energy output of 1.32 × 10^11 joules, which is beyond the power of any mortal Force user to endure.

Taking all of these factors into account, it becomes evident that the Father is undoubtedly the most powerful Force user in canon.

So Im gonna go about this a bit differently and rebut your post first because I think it is a good point to take off from with my opener and leads into a few of the things I wish to talk about here, so lets get into the juice...

WHY DARTH SIDIOUS IS FAR MORE POWERFUL THAN THE MORTIS FATHER!  

Gray wrote:“Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka Tano investigated the kilometers-wide artifact, and were drawn into a paradise realm inhabited by unspeakably powerful Force-wielders”

This description is unique to the Ones. It suggests that their abilities are on a cosmic or transcendent scale

I wouldn't say that them being called unspeakably powerful force wielders is something unique to the One's in fact The One's and Darth Sidious’ power both get the same description in Relaunched Fact File 75, The Ones are called impossibly powerful and then a few pages down the same article Sidious gets the exact same accolade, their power is described similarly. And too add to that, technically every character in Star Wars has power “on the cosmic scale” everyone has a cosmic relevance and any moderately strong person can shift the cosmic force by being a bit angry lol

Relaucnhed 75 wrote:

Gray wrote:which is supported by their next description as “God-Like Beings” due to their extraordinary Force abilities and their roles in maintaining the balance of the Force within Mortis. “These god-like beings were locked in an eternal struggle for dominance, which made Mortis the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force.” Eternal speaks more to their immortality, but the next causal phrase underscores just how vast their influence is. In other words, the outcome of the struggle within Mortis has far-reaching consequences that extend beyond the realm itself.

It extends beyond the realm itself because what happens on Mortis is an abstraction of what's happening in the galaxy, all the energy from every living being passes through Mortis and is embodied by the One's, so what's happening in the galaxy has a direct affect on whats happening on Mortis and whats happening on Mortis has a direct affect on the Galaxy, its all synonymous, Sidious' rise in the galaxy has just as much an affect on The Son as the Son does to Sidious, so its not like it goes one way since its all connected.

Gray wrote:Now let’s look at the Father’s descriptions.

“In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can.” This phrase highlights that the Father has a unique and unparalleled mastery of the Force. By stating that no known mortals of the galaxy can wield the Force in the same ways as the Ones of Mortis, it underscores their exceptional nature. It implies that their powers are not only extraordinary but also beyond the reach of even the most powerful mortal Force user in the galaxy.

Yes I agree with this, but if anything it only helps up-scale Sidious as I will expound on further down

Gray wrote:At the bare minimum, 2,000 years. Furthermore, we know why they are on Mortis: “He explains that he and his children can manipulate the Force like no other, which made it necessary for them to withdraw from the temporal world.” This reinforces the idea that they are unique and extraordinary Force-wielders who, because of their unparalleled abilities, chose to isolate themselves from the temporal world to avoid potential consequences or disruptions caused by their power

consequences and disruptions like the ones Sheev caused? Given that its the One's purpose to guard the balance of the Force Id say it makes sense that they leave the Galaxy as to not get anybody else caught up in their fights or damage the balance in any way, Sheev doesn't care about that, but you could say the same thing for him could you not? wouldn't it also be better for the galaxy if he was locked away somewhere. Nothing here that you could not extend to Sheev

Gray wrote:Chee is on record stating that the most powerful Force user to date is none other than the Father.

“George sat me down and started explaining to me that they’re these gods and they wield the Force they’re much more powerful than any Jedi Knights and this one can turn into a gargoyle and this one can turn into a griffin.” His statement aligns with their portrayal as enigmatic, god-like beings with unparalleled Force abilities, which is hinted at in the beginning of the episode describing them as beings “more powerful with the Force than any Jedi has seen before.” It was “difficult” for Filoni to work out the logic of the dagger as a weapon that can kill “these ultra-beings.”

It becomes clear that the intent for The Father was to establish him, along with the Ones, as the most powerful beings to ever exist, to the point where they are deified. Now, we can move on to IU statements that support this.

Chee here is referring to Father in the past when his balance was not so fragile, we know this because in the episode itself The Son is too strong for the Father and becomes more powerful than him, so either Chee is wrong or he is speaking to a version of the Father back in a time of balance.

The father keeps a fragile balance between his daughter, who allies with the light side, and the son, who drifts ever closer to the dark. -Altar of Mortis Script

I will say also that Chee is openly against revealing a lot of these hidden concepts and metaphors pertaining to these Force based story arc's and a lot of what I have to say regarding Palpatine ties directly into those, so I don't think Chee would be at liberty to say anything like Sheev > Father even if it was true, because it unravels a lot of the mystery surrounding Mortis and concepts integrated into the episodes which Ill expand on in a moment, Im also not sure Chee would even know about a lot of the power mechanics that go on within the material tbh and again even if he did, would he reveal whats left there for us to pick apart? No I don't think he would, I also don't think he would approve of using one of his tweets to levy against anything depicted on screen or in any of the material, so that Chee quote doesnt really do it for me there and those other quotes work in my favor as Ill talk about in a sec.

Gray wrote:“In this realm are three godlike beings that are physical personifications of Force aspects: The Daughter is the light, the Son is the dark, and their Father is the balance.” In essence, their power is derived from their direct link to the Force's most foundational elements. This connection allows them to exist on a level of power and significance that goes far beyond mortal beings. We see this in Bendu, whom we’ll discuss later.

Sure, they embody all that energy that culminates on Mortis which is a conduit for the entire force, I don't disagree but lets run through how exactly this works and what link you talk about actually is

"Unlike any other. A conduit through which the entire Force of the universe flows." -Overlords Script

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Relaunched 59 wrote:

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Picture it like threads in a tapestry, and all the threads for every living being cross at Mortis, that energy embodied in the One's. look at the Heart of the Jedi Nexus for some insight for how this works

It was a grid work of uncountable fine threads, running here and there to various points, connecting, linking, crossing, intertwining in a complex woven fabric that seemed to bind all into a whole tapestry. And many threads shot away from it into the surrounding space, as if stretching out to touch other worlds. “It’s the lines of energy!” said Luke. “I can see them!” -Heart of the Jedi

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It is strong with the Force. The threads of energy which interweave to bind all life together have many crossings there. It is a collection point, its concentrated power form a sort of gateway into the pure essence of all being. -Heart of the Jedi

So obviously embodying the energy of every living thing the One's have an affect on the greater galaxy, and vice versa because all that energy comes from those living things, its a deeper abstraction of what's going on, but that link is not exclusive to the One's since it goes both ways

Gray wrote:The dagger of Mortis is stated as “the only weapon capable of killing the three avatars of the Force.” The Ones are “The three most powerful bearers of the Force” capable of “shaping the planet at will, according to their internal state.” Mortis was “home to three improbably powerful Force beings” and could “alter their landscape to suit themselves-or when their mood affected it.”

The One's connection with the planet is because they embody the power that flows through it, so its all an expression of the ones as they personify all the power there, as for your point about the Dagger, all will make sense after you finish reading this post, but I will say now that indeed yes the Father cannot just be killed by a lightsaber, but in the same respect neither can Sidious, his power is still there, he is killed and comes back, my aim is to establish Sidious as vastly more powerful than the Father[/size], who would win in a fight, not who can permanently shut down the other entirely and banish their spirit, The Son for instance smacking Father he is stronger and he can do that to him all day but he wont kill him properly unless he has the dagger, I think Sheev can ragdoll the Father in a similar manor and is far stronger, and that is what I am arguing in favor of here, not that Sheev has the Ones killing abaility of the dagger which has more to do with the nature of the One's being pure energy and not actually bound to a physical form than it does about actual quantity of power there, The Father might keep pulling a Sion and getting back up again and again until he is stabbed with the dagger but I think Sheev in ROTS could just fingerflick him all day long

Gray wrote:The Son and Daughter are scaled in a similar manner, and the Father was more powerful than both of them, their biggest indicator of how powerful they were comes from the “realization that they could tear the very fabric of our universe," which goes beyond anything previously encountered. It elevates these characters to a cosmic scale, placing them in a category of their own when it comes to Force mastery.
This would scale the Father above the likes of Bendu, who is “a little more in that realm” and also shows unprecedented Force abilities. Bendu is described as a “life force,” and “He’s not the dark side or the light — he’s something greater.” He’s powerful enough to the extent where he’s compared to “divine forces,” which is supported by Filoni stating he’s comparable in nature to Mortis beings/Force priestesses/extension, and influenced by Tom Bombadil who existed outside the traditional power structure and who was IU beyond the effects of mortals, similar to Bendu. This is tied together by Martin holding all of them as immortal and Bendu being “beyond your power to destroy” (in reference to Thrawn) underscoring the notion of their deified status. Even while holding back, Bendu creates an energy output of 1.32 × 10^11 joules, which is beyond the power of any mortal Force user to endure.

Taking all of these factors into account, it becomes evident that the Father is undoubtedly the most powerful Force user in canon.

The Father says that they can tear the fabric of our universe and Anakin says he doesn't understand, the father's reason for this is he can only control the One's on Mortis, and the Father follows up with "there are some who would like to exploit our power, the Sith are but One" and then follows up with saying that this can be the undoing of life as we understand it, so in that very scene the Father is saying that the power that can tear the fabric of the universe is being exploited by mortals, which is why Anakin has been called to save the day, which leads me into my opener, considering everything I have said above lets look at why the Episodes themselves allow for future characters to exceed the limits the ones place on past characters, notably Sidious and then why everything you have said fits into my argument, you have established the power of the One's, now Ill show you why Sidious is far stronger than that



So your argument for the Father is essentially that the One's are god like beings who are more powerful than everybody else, and to that I would say... yes I agree, however the Episodes themselves both allow and even set up Sidious being stronger than this threshold, and there is a reason for that, firstly the Father makes it apparent that mortal Force Users could tame one of the children, if you notice the emphasis he puts on BOTH

"Only the Chosen One could tame both my children" -Overlords

Further supported by the fact Anakin is powerful enough to tame one of the children even if he is not the Chosen One, he could just be a regular guy who happens to be very powerful at this point.

"But which one will you choose to save, your master, or your apprentice" -Overlords

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If he is the chosen one, he will discover it here. And if not? Then you must realize with his power, this is a very dangerous place for him to be -Overlords Script

all confirming that you don't have to be the Chosen One to tame one of the children, and of course in a Lucas context who else would this in reference to other than Yoda and Palpatine 


The Ones "guard the power"

“We are the ones who guard the power. We are the middle, the beginning, and the end.” “Glad she cleared that up for us.” Overlords Script

-Clone Wars Comic UK 6.17 wrote:

and there are mortals who wish to exploit this power, which is the given reason why balance is crumbling and why the Chosen One has been summoned to take the Father's place

Then why reveal yourselves to us?  There are some who would like to exploit our power. The sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it. When news reached me that the chosen one had been found, I needed to see for myself. -Overlords Script

And of course the One's die so who is guarding the power ? The power is left unguarded and free for Mortals to exploit and grow into the now unguarded unrestrained power, you can think of the One's as caps to accessible power, and when those caps are lifted the Force goes crazy and there is nobody to stop that power being exploited by Mortals Now, with that power unrestrained and free for mortal usage, it doesn't seem too hard to believe those guys who where previously already capable of taming one of the children individually are now able to tame two (well not really cos they are dead but you get the point) they can now enter that Chosen One realm of power, and on that note Ill quickly talk about the Chosen One. The Chosen One for all intents and purposes is AT LEAST as powerful as The Father demonstrating power akin to him in his showings with the Ones, and I know what everyone is thinking "urrr durrh mortis amp bluhhh" and to that I would suggest looking more into the dialogue in the episode where the Father clearly states that he also must use the Nexus to control them
 

Overlords wrote:"It is only here that I can control them"

And of course as I laid out above that's because Mortis is where all that power flows from all living beings, he embodies the power there it all flows through him both sides, so naturally he needs to use this power to tame the One's. So using use of the Mortis Nexus as an excuse to separate Anakin's power from the Fathers is unfaithful

What have you done? It did not have to be this way. Yes, my child, it did. You and I are tied together, runs through me. This way, I take your power. -Ghosts of Mortis Script

The difference in fact between Anakin and the Father is that Anakin does NOT actually need to use the Mortis Nexus, again if we look at the dialogue in the episode and pay attention to detail, The Father doesnt tell Anakin to "Hey use the Nexus" it is Kenobi who says that.

FATHER: I have ordered my children to kill your friends. The question is, which one will you choose to save: Your masr or your apprentice? You must now release the guilt and free yourself by choosing. ANAKIN:No! ( Gasps ) KENOBI: Their powers are too strong for us, Anakin. Save Ahsoka. ( Growling ) ANAKIN: ( Gasping and groaning ) Let them go. FATHER: Only you can make my children release them. KENOBI: Anakin, the planet is the force. Use it. -Overlords Script

Anakin defies the Father in using the Nexus, meaning that the Father never wanted Anakin to use it, so where else do you think Father wanted Anakin to get the power from ?

-Clone Wars: Secrets Revealed in 3D | Pablo Hidalgo wrote:

The power on Mortis exists within Anakin, and the Father wanted Anakin to free himself by releasing his guilt thus freeing that same power from within,

They, like me, believe him to be the chosen one. You were right. The force within him is stronger than any known Jedi. -Overlords

Obi-Wan says the planet IS THE FORCE which is exactly what is interred in Anakin

The Force as Anakin knew it was interred with him, and inseparable from him. Just as Sidious promised, he was now married to the order of the Sith, and needed no other companion than the dark side of the Force. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

Interred = in place (a corpse) in a grave or tomb further evidence of this is shown by the fact that Anakin's internal imbalance and the Balance of Mortis have the exact same knock on affect on the galaxy, all the threads of power pass through both of them

As his own internal balance was affected, so the galaxy fell to the dark side. the traditional forces of light, such as the Jedi Order, were decimated. Relaunched Fact File 23

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"As the Balance on this world crumbles so too shall war escalate in your Galaxy"
-Overlords

This is why Anakin show's The Son his potential and why controlling Skywalker will mean you control everything

By bringing the chosen one here, you've shown me my potential. You've only yourself to blame. -Altar of Mortis

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With his sister gone, the Son craves freedom even more. He wants to leave Mortis, so his power will be unstoppable. The dark side Force wielder recognizes Anakin as the key to unleashing his power -Clone Wars Secrets Revealed in 3D

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it is unknown but know this, the chosen one is the key, he who controls Skywalker will control everything, we tell you this to guarantee your success -Ghosts of Mortis - Deleted Scene

And the Son can only manifest on Mortis, right, because that is where all the power he embodies flows, but with Anakin he can leave, he can manifest outside of Mortis he can corrupt the Chosen One and control everything with his own little portable Mortis, which is exactly what Sidious seeks to do, Indeed there is almost like a Son vs Palpatine race for the Chosen One narrative set up, also blah blah deleted scene, well this scene was only taken out solely on premise of Sith spirit concerns which Lucas didn't like, the core narrative at play here still stands true. The Sith spirits who essentially act as the voice for the dark side, its will warn The Son that Sidious has been foreseen and that he will control the Universe/possess Anakin, which they say is key for dark side supremacy, they warn the Son telling him to get to Anakin first, its a race for Anakin, and the Sidious that is foreseen is in possession of Anakin, which is something of desire for the Son, and so the Palpatine foreseen is stronger than the Son who at the time is not in possession of Anakin, and it is important to note that the Son at this time has just killed the Daughter with the Dagger of Mortis, so has taken her power, so that is The Son with the Power of the Daughter, and the Foreseen One is stronger, which confirms that indeed you don't have to be the chosen one to be stronger than both children combined once the ones are dead, and of course the Sidious in the vision exists after the One's have died, he is stronger than the combined childrens powers currently embodied in the Son, and who is = to the power of the combined children with both their energies passing through him?... The Father, who is stronger than that... this forseen one aka Order 66 Palpatine in the vision

we stand before you disciples of the dark side intent on its supremacy, it has been foreseen that one lives who will control the universe, where it is unknown but know this, the chosen one is the key, he who controls Skywalker will control everything, we tell you this to guarantee your success  Ghosts of Mortis - Deleted Scene

The Son then acquires Anakin and declares that TOGETHER they will defeat this foreseen one from the visions, and even together they only MIGHT win.

The future by its nature can be changed. Join me, and together we will destroy this emperor you see in your visions. Then we shall end war, corruption, and suffering throughout the galaxy.  Will we bring peace? Of course. -Ghosts of Mortis Script

Altar of Mortis Episode Gallery wrote:

So that is the power of Anakin who is essentially a walking Mortis gone dark expressing the Son's potential + The Son + The Daughter and they MIGHT beat the Foreseen One if they work together, but how is Palpatine so strong, and its because the Foreseen One represents a future Palpatine who exists both after the One's have died and after possessing and turning Anakin to the Dark Side, an Anakin that has grown an actual unimaginable amount since S3 of TCW, I dont want to make this into a big long post about Anakin's growth so Ill keep it brief, from S3 Anakin is stated to 'grow vastly in power' in G-Canon sources and then double from S6 - ROTS alone which is at the very most a 6 month gap and at the very least a few weeks (Thanks TCW Dating retcons)

But Ahsoka eventually became disillusioned and left the Jedi Order, an act which Anakin regretted. The Clone Wars continued, and Anakin became a hero and grew vastly in power. -Anakin Skywalker Databank

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So without going into all of his growth (which I can expand on if you want me to) the take away here is that the Anakin Sheev possesses is well over twice as powerful than the One the Son possesses and the One that showed parity with the Father. Anakin of course being that catalyst for unlocking the dark sides full potential that both the Son and Sidious wish to obtain, and before I hear "urrhh this is Father vs Palpatine not Father Palpatine and Anakin" ill say that if we are not using Palpatine with Anakin, then what Palpatine are we actually using? because Anakin is part of his power, it is largely why he is so powerful in ROTS, using TCW Sidious would also be using Sheev + Dooku by the same logic, Sheev draws power from his apprentices that is how that Sith master and apprentice bond works that is just part of Sheev's power, if we are ranking people without their force bonds and connections then we really have nothing to go off and may as well be ranking them without the Force

Son of Dathomir wrote:

Sheev uses that Living Force connection of his apprentice similar to how Talzin uses Queen Julia's Living Force, he covets Anakin's power and later possesses it entirely

"The hour is far too late to trouble yourself with such matters my dear. It may help you to know however, that I am not a natural force-wielder like the Jedi or Sith. I use dark magic to achieve power, but as a Bardottian you possess a strong connection to the living force. A connection that will now be mine." “Never. I will not succumb to your evil.” -The Disappeared Script

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Much like Darth Sidious seeks to use Anakin Skywalker’s powerful connection to the Force for his own dark deeds, the Great Mother is willing to sacrifice the Queen Julia and so many other harvested souls to attain a power greater than the Sith or the Jedi -The Disappeared Rewatch

-Relaunched Starships and Vehicle Collection 2 wrote:

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Relaunched 108 wrote:

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which is how Sheev is able to become 'fully empowered" in ROTS mirroring the Son needing Anakin to be fully empowered and of course all of this is intended to deepen the concepts in the films acting as one big metaphor, and in regard to the stuff about the link we just went in depth on above, not onky does it not make the Ones supreme in any sense like you claimed but Sidious also possesses that exact same thing through Anakin anyways and not just a link to any one side either, like the son or daughter but a link to all the Mortis power like the father, so it’s not something that can really be levied against Sidious here anyways

you have to think of it like these are three entire episodes that take place in the tree when Luke is on Dagobah, this is all spiritual, this is all metaphor this is all symbolic in some way I can tell you that many things in this arc of stories is a metaphor everything is symbolic of everything that takes place in all six star wars films Dave Filloni Star Wars The Clone Wars Season Three: Altar Of Mortis Featurette

Galactic Files wrote:

On Mortis the Son seeks to steal the Fathers power with the Dagger, but this never happens, and of course The Father and Anakin represent the same thing, the balance of the Force, and Sidious does come to possess that Balance power for himself, so Fully Empowered Sidious in ROTS represents what the Son would have become had he taken that balance power

-Clone Wars: Secrets Revealed in 3D | Pablo Hidalgo wrote:

Sidious is the culmination of all of this power, a representation of what happens when everything that could go wrong goes wrong, when the light is completely destroyed and the power of balance is corrupted and in his hands, he is truly unlimited power! The Father is shown in the episodes themselves to be inferior to Palpatine, it sets up the ones as these ultra powerful beings, sets up their powers being exploited, which is exactly what we see with Talzin who infuses Savage Opress into a dark side monster through application of Ichor from the Essence of the Daughter

Book of Sith wrote:

Bare in mind this happens the Episode before the Mortis Arc, right before they say “there are some who wish to exploit our power” Its through setting up the power of these ultra god like entities and that power being exploited that the threats and stakes are upped tenfold kicking The Clone Wars into higher gear, their way of making these TCW guys the real top bad guys 

"You've watched Jedi battle Sith, Clones battle separatists, and secrets be revealed, but now, everything's about to change. A dark lord's betrayal will set in motion a chain of events that even the Jedi might not be powerful enough to stop, and lead to the creation of a new threat. One who could consume the galaxy with hate. Basically he's no joke. It's time for the Clone Wars to kick into high gear, and nothing will be the same."
-TCW Season 3 Promo

And Sheev in ROTS is just the culmination of all of this, and If you are still in denial of Sheev's ultimate supremacy over the One's then I do urge you to try and find any other alternative deductions from the lines in the episode or in the source material that actually follows through to conclusion and lines up as consistently as what i have presented all things considered, If im not correct then what actually is happening here ? Ive been through it all time and time again and no other possible outcomes lead down any path of such consistency as I have laid out and I invite anybody to contest me on that! Revenge of the Sith Palpatine is more powerful than the Father. also please cite your sources next time sir, could have shit all of those quotes out your ass for all we know, dw I recognise them but still, makes it a lot easier to cross reference etc etc.


Your move my friend

We’re gonna do a little comprehension deconstruction recomposition

Vaelias wrote:I wouldn't say that them being called unspeakably powerful force wielders is something unique to the One's in fact The One's and Darth Sidious’ power both get the same description

It is true that they do not hold the only title of being “impossibly powerful,” the quotes of the Father being "unspeakably powerful" and "impossibly powerful" aren't unique because there's another quote of Sidious being "impossibly powerful." However the context of the quotes appear to be different and may not grasp the full context. "The three impossibly powerful Force entities were able to mold the planet to their mood," and "The brothers fought him together, but the Sith Lord was impossibly powerful." Note the differences concerning who views them as "impossibly powerful." For the Father, it would universally apply, but with Sidious, it appears to only apply to Maul and Savage, which would make sense given the context. So here it looks like their descriptions of being powerful to a point where they transcend ordinary disparity is still an indicator, whereas for Sidious' quote, it's more-so to demonstrate the power disparity between him and the brothers. The Father's descriptions on the other hand are more universal and imply a level of power that goes beyond typical power differentials.

Vaelias wrote:everyone has a cosmic relevance and any moderately strong person can shift the cosmic force by being a bit angry lol

The scope for this is the universe as a whole. I don’t think any characters other than Force entities have valid implications for being capable of destroying galaxies.

Vaelias wrote:Sidious' rise in the galaxy has just as much an affect on The Son as the Son does to Sidious

This is true if we’re talking political dominance or military authority, but how much would the Father affect the galaxy with power alone? If he’s able to affect the galaxy to the point where it would lead to destruction, and Sidious isn’t, I don’t see how the two can be=in consequences.

Vaelias wrote:Sheev doesn't care about that, but you could say the same thing for him could you not?

I would say there is no evidence of Sidious possessing the capability to tear the fabrics of the universe.

Vaelias wrote:wouldn't it also be better for the galaxy if he was locked away somewhere.

It would be better, yes, but is he capable? The Ones are able to separate themselves from the temporal world, meanwhile other characters on the same power of Sidious are unable to remove themselves from the same temporal world, such as Luke. He chooses to distance himself on Ahch-To. I’d argue the act in itself is another indicator that they’re powerful enough to do that because of their knowledge in the Force. This would also extend to inherent limitations associated with mortal’s power, because we see characters less powerful than the Father and more powerful than mortals that are capable of traveling through the galaxy because of their power in the Force.

Vaelias wrote:So either Chee is wrong or he is speaking to a version of the Father back in a time of balance.

I’m using the Father at his best in canon, therefore Chee’s statement would apply to that version. I’m aware of the Father weakening by the time of the Mortis trilogy to the point where his children usurp him.

Vaelias wrote:So obviously embodying the energy of every living thing the One's have an affect on the greater galaxy, and vice versa because all that energy comes from those living things, its a deeper abstraction of whats going on, but that link is not exclusive to the One's since it goes both ways.

Just clarifying this so that I understand, The Ones are a representation of the universe, and vice-versa is what I extrapolated from that information, and then the universe’s power flows through Mortis.

Vaelias wrote:I will say now that indeed yes the Father cannot just be killed by a lightsaber, but in the same respect neither can Sidious

I see where you’re going and I was going to bring up that I don’t think Sidious has to kill the Father to be>him lol. The concept I was trying to emphasize was more-so the fundamental capabilities concerning how their mortality is affected. In canon, was Sidious killed at a time? Yes, but that was retconned with the Rise of Skywalker. However, that required preliminary measures leading up to Sidious’ transition that left him in an even worse body. The Father doesn’t need these measures, which I was trying to get at. Sidious is vulnerable to lightsabers, the Father isn’t, and there is a demonstrated power concept tied to that in a way. “I wanted to convey the idea that Jedi are all very powerful, but they’re also vulnerable — which is why I wanted to kill Qui-Gon. That is to say, “Hey, these guys aren’t Superman.” These guys are people who are vulnerable, just like every other person.” I think you can agree that Lucas took this approach with Sidious, and not the Father. Lucas even took it a step further by describing the Ones as “gods,” which is certainly beyond superman. And that falls into the realm of whether or not Lucas would categorize the Father in the realm of deities, and I think he would because of the power differential. There’s a lot of conceptual evidence to support this too, which is why I brought up what their projected growth should be based on their presentations rather than what we actually see because oftentimes it’s a 1:1 representation.

Vaelias wrote:Further supported by the fact Anakin is powerful enough to tame one of the children even if he is not the Chosen One, he could just be a regular guy who happens to be very powerful at this point. 

I’m assuming you reached this through the interpretations of “"But which one will you choose to save, your master, or your apprentice" and “Then you must realize with his power, this is a very dangerous place for him to be”: Anakin is powerful enough to tame one of the children of the Force on Mortis Anakin may not necessarily be the Chosen One, but instead a person with exceptional power Conclusion: Anakin's power alone enables him to tame the children of the Force, irrespective of whether he is the Chosen One or not. However, there’s a mistake in the interpretation of the first quote, the assumption made is that the Father says which friend will Anakin save, therefore he has the power to save one. It poses a moral dilemma to Anakin rather than implying a specific power attributed to him. If only the Chosen One can tame both of his children, then he has to be tested. The Father then puts him in a situation where he tries to use reverse psychology by asking him to choose in a scenario where, if he's the chosen one, he doesn't have to. He can certainly fail, too, which would confirm whether or not he’s the Chosen One as well, we don't have to jump to "he has to be able to tame one in order to be in that scenario."

Vaelias wrote:The Ones "guard the power"

I’m interpreting this as they are the guardians of the power (The Force) by ensuring that the balance is maintained. They’re acting as custodians of balance in order to preserve life. The Sith want to tip the balance to the Dark Side to gain power.

Vaelias wrote:The Chosen One for all intents and purposes is AT LEAST as powerful as The Father demonstrating power akin to him in his showings with the Ones, and I know what everyone is thinking "urrr durrh mortis amp bluhhh" and to that I would suggest looking more into the dialogue in the episode where the Father clearly states that he also must use the Nexus to control them

Lucas is on record declaring the Father more powerful than any Jedi, as well as the narrator in the Clone Wars, and all the quotes of them surpassing mortals. It also becomes apparent the fact that both of them use the nexus to tame the children isn't necessarily an indicator considering it's a combination of both, it's entirely possible the Father doesn't need to use as much of Mortis as Anakin or that he can't use it at all, considering he can be defeated by the children, who supposedly can't use the nexus.

Vaelias wrote:The difference in fact between Anakin and the Father is that Anakin does NOT actually need to use the Mortis Nexus, again if we look at the dialogue in the episode and pay attention to detail, The Father doesnt tell Anakin to "Hey use the Nexus" it is Kenobi who says that.

This “Chosen One Mortis amp” is unique to Anakin. He tames the children by using his power and Mortis, we can’t assume he does it alone. We can’t conclude he doesn’t need the Nexus because only Kenobi tells him, that’s an argument from ignorance consisting of:
The Father doesn’t tell him to use the Nexus, therefore he doesn’t need the Nexus.

Vaelias wrote:Anakin defies the Father in using the Nexus, meaning that the Father never wanted Anakin to use it, so where else do you think Father wanted Anakin to get the power from?

This is a serious flaw concerning the interpretation of the narrative. The Father is testing Anakin, which means he's not supposed to give him the answers and actually lead him away, this is evident in the Father pressing Anakin with a choice of one or the other, rather than the real answer which is that the choice is an illusion. He defies the Father's declaration of choice, not using the nexus. This fits the statement you sent.

Vaelias wrote:The power on Mortis exists within Anakin, and the Father wanted Anakin to free himself by releasing his guilt thus freeing that same power from within

Your argument ignores the Father stating Anakin would be freed by choosing. This is all a test, Anakin's guilt of choosing one over the other is preventing the act itself, so if he makes a decision to choose one, therefore he is freeing himself. But all in the context of a test, which means it's designed to push Anakin away from the answer, which is the fact that he doesn't have to place master over apprentice or vice-versa.

Vaelias wrote:Obi-Wan says the planet IS THE FORCE which is exactly what is interred in Anakin

The same logic applies to any nexus, object, location etc. The Force is "interred" with all living things, so the claim that "Mortis is the Force, the Force is interred in Anakin, therefore Anakin has the power of Mortis" can apply to every Force user and every planet.

Vaelias wrote:further evidence of this is shown by the fact that Anakin's internal imbalance and the Balance of Mortis have the exact same knock on effect on the galaxy, all the threads of power pass through both of them

This quote that “As his own internal balance was affected, so the galaxy fell to the dark side.” is not evidence of one causing the other. What we do know, however, is that there are greater factors that led both to happen around the same time, and that does not mean the two events are intertwined having direct effects on each other. Even the grammatical structure only highlights that the events are correlated, not cause-and-effect. Because ironically, we can create a similar quote with "As his own internal balance was affected, so the Order 66 was transmitted to the clones." This is just another example of correlation, and not causation. The difference between that quote and "As the Balance on this world crumbles so too shall war escalate in your Galaxy" is identification of two events having similarities, and one declaring what shall happen because of a previous event

Vaelias wrote:And the Son can only manifest on Mortis, right, because that is where all the power he embodies flows, but with Anakin he can leave.

Not necessarily, the dark side exists in the temporal world, and he only needs the ship. Anakin merely acts as a catalyst for his plans. There’s an external factor affecting Mortis, which is why it acts as a “prison.” Plus, they were able to exist within the temporal world before being transported.

we stand before you disciples of the dark side intent on its supremacy, it has been foreseen that one lives who will control the universe

I’ve seen you using this quote to establish an argument for a sort of power mechanic behind this, which there is, we agree on that, but I’d say it’s more than that. Anakin is the key to controlling the universe, but not the only key. He’s a chess piece basically where he alone can’t change the course of the universe.

Vaelias wrote:The Son then acquires Anakin and declares that TOGETHER they will defeat this foreseen one from the visions, and even together they only MIGHT win.

Based on the quote from the star wars databank stating "The Son promises that Anakin's future need not be what he saw in his vision, that if he joins the Son, they might destroy the Emperor and establish peace throughout the galaxy." But this appears to be a misinterpretation since the actual words are "Join me, and together we will destroy this emperor you see in your visions.
"Then we shall end war, corruption, and suffering throughout the galaxy." So here I don't think this argument is necessarily valid because the databank is attempting to paraphrase what the Son says, but got it wrong by switching "might" with "will". You can argue it's an out-of-universe statement attempting to explain the odds of that happening, but that wouldn't align with "The Son promises," he never promises they might win, rather they will win. Therefore, the argument that the duo might defeat the emperor because the databank said so is erroneous due to the nature of the statement.

Vaelias wrote:So without going into all of his growth (which I can expand on if you want me to)

You don’t have to, I’m not even sure if there’s anything to be contested there that would drastically affect the argument.

Vaelias wrote:Sheev draws power from his apprentices that is how that Sith master and apprentice bond works that is just part of Sheev's power,

Not necessarily, there’s a lack of evidence of this concept existing, well, it’s summarized in the Sith becoming stronger because of the dark side. Sheev gets stronger because the dark side gets stronger. This is only hinted at with the dyad, and even then they had to work at it and be in close proximity to share power, something that Palpatine admits he and Anakin couldn’t achieve. It “paled” in comparison.

Vaelias wrote:Sheev uses that Living Force connection of his apprentice similar to how Talzin uses Queen Julia's Living Force, he covets Anakin's power and later possesses it entirely

It is true that both connections to the Force are used for dark deeds, however the difference being Sidious uses Anakin as a weapon, Talzin uses the souls for power. It's also supported in the statement that talks about Sidious coveting Anakin's power, then using that power by having Anakin massacre the temple.

Vaelias wrote:which is how Sheev is able to become 'fully empowered"

For Sidious, this is all designed to tilt the balance towards the dark side, of which Anakin acts as a catalyst.

Pretty sure I’ve found a couple cracks and whatnot, but I think the holistic distinction thus far should point to Lucas+Co’s consistent depiction of Force wielders as beyond mortals considering George opened layers to the cosmology of the Force provided that “it felt removed from the way mortals interact with it.”

Gray wrote:It is true that they do not hold the only title of being “impossibly powerful,” the quotes of the Father being "unspeakably powerful" and "impossibly powerful" aren't unique because there's another quote of Sidious being "impossibly powerful." However the context of the quotes appear to be different and may not grasp the full context. "The three impossibly powerful Force entities were able to mold the planet to their mood," and "The brothers fought him together, but the Sith Lord was impossibly powerful." Note the differences concerning who views them as "impossibly powerful." For the Father, it would universally apply, but with Sidious, it appears to only apply to Maul and Savage, which would make sense given the context. So here it looks like their descriptions of being powerful to a point where they transcend ordinary disparity is still an indicator, whereas for Sidious' quote, it's more-so to demonstrate the power disparity between him and the brothers. The Father's descriptions on the other hand are more universal and imply a level of power that goes beyond typical power differentials.

Eh the context isnt what sticks out to me there, whats interesting to me is that its the same article and its the exact same accolade given to the both of them we could talk about context but Fact File guys are known for sneaking these little tidbits in and drawing little connections throughout their works, Im not so much saying to ignore the context rather look at the comparison in a different light, why do we get this comparison? why do we get the exact same description of their power in the same article? like this is all here for a reason right, I think this is a clear nod to the whole Foreseen One sequence and the exploiting of the One's powers etc, either way both of the impossibly powerful quotes are from the same POV and that’s the Fact File narrator so I don’t think it’s taking a comparison of Maul and Sheevs power disparity into account there, it’s simply labelling Sidious impossibly powerful which it also labels The Ones and I think that just acts as it’s own tier there or outlining a certain threshold, which I think is the Ones range power hence why I think this is a definite nod to the stuff in the episodes about exploiting the ones power which is what they say Sheev is doing, it’s just too obvious a comparison there to brush it off so handily

Gray wrote:The scope for this is the universe as a whole. I don’t think any characters other than Force entities have valid implications for being capable of destroying galaxies.

For one there's an implication for that very thing in the Episodes in fact its the reason why Anakin was summoned there, the Sith are getting too strong and it will be the undoing of life aka The Force aka destroys all the symbiotic circles and destroys the Universe

Then why reveal yourselves to us? There are some who would like to exploit our power. The sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it. -Overlords Script

The Ones clearly aren’t Galaxy busters I really don’t think any of that the universe threat stuff means they could just be throwing galaxies around like dragonball this is evident in the material in fact, Lucas just simply doesn’t think the force works like that, even the Ones are not depicted like this in the episodes, they still very much exist within the grounded Lucas medium and I don't think their main threat level really manifests in a combat sense at all really, but rather in their nature, they command all the energy for each respective side, so any of their actions affects all that energy and the Father says "too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it" if the ones are not sensible then they fuck the galaxy with massive imbalance which is why they are all on Mortis where the Father can control them and keep balance correctly, so really its very similar to how Sheev does end up fucking the galaxy with massive imbalance and clouding which does indeed fold space, rend the fabric of the universe etc etc tearing the fabric of the galaxy is something that both past Sith and Sheev and even his Adepts can do, it’s not so much about quantity of power more the application of it, its the application of Anger + Will concentrated and channelled and unleashed through the vital gate to channel the energies that surround us (aka those dark side threads that pass through all things) to rend the fabric of the universe, its one of the prerequisites for unleashing a Force Storm, and of course the Son is where all those dark side threads meet, he's the embodiment of all of them so it doesn't surprise me that the Son leaving Mortis could do that as the adepts could but it certainly does not mean the Son is supreme since he can do this

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. -Gamer Magazine #5

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'I can unleash the Dark Side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.” -Book of Anger

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Further evidence of the Ones not being these galaxy busters is in the narrative itself


If the Maw possesses the ability to confine entities described as being of the "Architects power", then it stands to reason that it could also confine the Ones, the Maw is a collection of several dozen black holes encircling Abeloth's planet, effectively preventing her escape due to their gravitational force, so clearly beings of the Architects power aren't galaxy busting dragonball entities if they can be imprisoned by normal black holes

Gray wrote:This is true if we’re talking political dominance or military authority, but how much would the Father affect the galaxy with power alone? If he’s able to affect the galaxy to the point where it would lead to destruction, and Sidious isn’t, I don’t see how the two can be=in consequences

I don't know what makes you think Sidious isnt capable of destroying the universe they say that is the threat in the Episode (posted above) The dark side is death so by nature in absence of Light everything just dies, and that's exactly whats happening in the OT and that would be the threat with the Son too, that is how the universe collapses.

Together we can change the balance of the universe, my friend. You must know I will never join the dark side willingly. How simple you make it, light and dark, as if there is one without the other. -Altar of Mortis Script

You have to think of it like these are three entire episodes that take place in the tree when Luke is on Dagobah, this is all spiritual, this is all metaphor this is all symbolic in some way I can tell you that many things in this arc of stories is a metaphor everything is symbolic of everything that takes place in all six star wars films -Dave Filloni Star Wars The Clone Wars Season Three: Altar Of Mortis Featurette

He wasn’t sure if the weakness was in him or if, with the death of every Jedi, the war was leaching some of the Force out the universe. -- Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

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The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the Universe, you my friend are all that's left of their religion -A New Hope

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He had thought of his diminished abilities as a personal failure—owing to the fact that he had lost his faith in the Jedi order, allowed his two Padawans to die, grown thought-bound—when, in fact, it was the Force as the Jedi had known it that had been defeated. The flame extinguished. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

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The Dark Side is reliant on that Light/Living Force because the Dark is not inherently Living Force based, it exists in the Cosmic Force but its corruption of Living Force, and that happens when someone USES the Dark Side, not it simply existing, this is an imbalance, and when it goes too far... well look at the quotes above. when the Living Force is dead then theres nothing left to corrupt and everything dies

Balance is the circle of life present in monolith systems. But beware, the greed of the dark side acts like a cancer on the living force, and the Sith are its chief agents. -Jedi Path

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The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies. -Of Man and Myth | George Lucas

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"The Darkside is always there, it is experienced daily by people. It’s like a huge cancer, alive, festering - both a reminder of the moral state and, at the same time symptom and symbol of a very sick society" ~ George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars”, Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001

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that is the threat that remains consistent for Palpatine and the One's that's the ultimate SW threat, not that the Son's gonna TK the Galaxy or something, that is definitely not what George has in mind.

Gray wrote:`I would say there is no evidence of Sidious possessing the capability to tear the fabrics of the universe.`

There’s plenty of evidence, some i quoted above, many people can do it, it’s not that big a deal in fact the dark side clouding comes from a rend in the fabric of the universe.

Darth Plagueis wrote:One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous’s Twi’lek Master
had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the
dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than
eight hundred years. That had been the inauguration, the
commencement of the revenge of the Sith. And now the time had
come to enlarge that rend into a gaping hole, a gaping wound, into
which the Republic and the Jedi Order would to their own hazard
be drawn.

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Gray wrote:`It would be better, yes, but is he capable? The Ones are able to separate themselves from the temporal world, meanwhile other characters on the same power of Sidious are unable to remove themselves from the same temporal world, such as Luke. He chooses to distance himself on Ahch-To. I’d argue the act in itself is another indicator that they’re powerful enough to do that because of their knowledge in the Force. This would also extend to inherent limitations associated with mortal’s power, because we see characters less powerful than the Father and more powerful than mortals that are capable of traveling through the galaxy because of their power in the Force.`

As outlined above yeah I think they are capable of the same thing, but I don’t think removing themselves from the temporal world has anything to do with how powerful they are more just what type of beings they are, take Sith Spirits for instance, they are only as powerful as their Living Self but are able to teleport around the galaxy come in and out of Chaos etc, and we know the ones are beings of pure energy the forms they take aren’t actual flesh and blood containing midis and organs etc so I think that’s the same thing going on there I don’t see their ability to leave the temporal world as a measure of power it’s just cos they are Celestials

Gray wrote:`I’m using the Father at his best in canon, therefore Chee’s statement would apply to that version. I’m aware of the Father weakening by the time of the Mortis trilogy to the point where his children usurp him.`

Well my aim here is to establish Sidious as more powerful than The Father we actually see and not a Hypothetical Father  who’s only bit of material is that one quote, if you wanna concede S3 TCW Father is weaker but ambiguous prime Father is stronger than I’m fine with that, I also just think Chee is just wrong here anyway based on what the material itself says

Gray wrote:`Just clarifying this so that I understand, The Ones are a representation of the universe, and vice-versa is what I extrapolated from that information, and then the universe’s power flows through Mortis.`

Ye essentially, so if you remember all the threads I talked about, they all flow through the son or daughter and so all the their actions have a knock on affect on all those threads and vice-versa

Gray wrote:`I see where you’re going and I was going to bring up that I don’t think Sidious has to kill the Father to be>him lol. The concept I was trying to emphasize was more-so the fundamental capabilities concerning how their mortality is affected. In canon, was Sidious killed at a time? Yes, but that was retconned with the Rise of Skywalker. However, that required preliminary measures leading up to Sidious’ transition that left him in an even worse body. The Father doesn’t need these measures, which I was trying to get at. Sidious is vulnerable to lightsabers, the Father isn’t, and there is a demonstrated power concept tied to that in a way. “I wanted to convey the idea that Jedi are all very powerful, but they’re also vulnerable — which is why I wanted to kill Qui-Gon. That is to say, “Hey, these guys aren’t Superman.” These guys are people who are vulnerable, just like every other person.” I think you can agree that Lucas took this approach with Sidious, and not the Father. Lucas even took it a step further by describing the Ones as “gods,” which is certainly beyond superman. And that falls into the realm of whether or not Lucas would categorize the Father in the realm of deities, and I think he would because of the power differential. There’s a lot of conceptual evidence to support this too, which is why I brought up what their projected growth should be based on their presentations rather than what we actually see because oftentimes it’s a 1:1 representation. `

I think I mostly covered this above, I agree the Ones benefit from their unique nature as celestials but again I still think amount of force energies is something else entirely which by ROTS I think Sheev has in spades over the Father in TCW, as I explained in my opener Sheev essentially represents a full potential Son, he does everything the Son wanted gets Anakin and has access to the Son's power

Gray wrote:`However, there’s a mistake in the interpretation of the first quote, the assumption made is that the Father says which friend will Anakin save, therefore he has the power to save one. It poses a moral dilemma to Anakin rather than implying a specific power attributed to him. If only the Chosen One can tame both of his children, then he has to be tested. The Father then puts him in a situation where he tries to use reverse psychology by asking him to choose in a scenario where, if he's the chosen one, he doesn't have to. He can certainly fail, too, which would confirm whether or not he’s the Chosen One as well, we don't have to jump to "he has to be able to tame one in order to be in that scenario."`

Well I dont necessarily disagree here but can both not be true ? It seems to be a no-brainer that he could tame one of them it’s not even a question or something the father even considers, and we have Father saying "Only the Chosen One could tame both my children" when looking at the evidence in conjunction I think Its apparent you don't have to be the Chosen One to tame just one, he wants Anakin to free himself to pass the test, as in free him from that "fog of lies" and to do that he has to let go, let go of one or the other.

Gray wrote:`I’m interpreting this as they are the guardians of the power (The Force) by ensuring that the balance is maintained. They’re acting as custodians of balance in order to preserve life. The Sith want to tip the balance to the Dark Side to gain power.`

Yeah exactly they guard it, stop it from being exploited by maintaining a fragile balance, and given all the many major imbalances we have seen throughout history that fragile balance is pretty flexible, as in if the Son is getting stronger rest assured the Daughter will come back, as seen in the imbalances and balance periods throughout history when the One's are embodying the power on Mortis. after their deaths there is no one guarding the power is all completely down to the Sith and other dark side groups etc to mold it shape it and grow it etc, there was still descent for the Son into the dark side

"As the balance in this world crumbles, so shall war escalate in your galaxy. As my son has descended into the dark side, so have the Sith gained strength." -Altar of Mortis Script

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Sheev only continues this descent for the galaxy after the Sons death when the power isnt guarded, then gets the Chosen One on top of that which of course is set up as the be all end all thing for Dark side supremacy, I think comparisons made in Galactic Files make it abundantly with the way they talk about the Son and Sidious, quite funny t read those two together imo

Galactic Files wrote:

And how Sheev gets plenty of quotes directly over the empowered Son

Bunch of Cards wrote:

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So they just make Sheev out to be the far better an these quotes include the Son when they say Sidious is the "most dangerous practitioner of the dark side" "The most dangerous entity" with "Unprecedented power" a being of "supreme evil" all of these are not specifically Sith related but are all inclusive to any entity of the Dark Side, even the empowered Son on Mortis, and of course we know why Palpatine is getting all these quotes now

Gray wrote:Lucas is on record declaring the Father more powerful than any Jedi, as well as the narrator in the Clone Wars, and all the quotes of them surpassing mortals. It also becomes apparent the fact that both of them use the nexus to tame the children isn't necessarily an indicator considering it's a combination of both, it's entirely possible the Father doesn't need to use as much of Mortis as Anakin or that he can't use it at all, considering he can be defeated by the children, who supposedly can't use the nexus.

Sure Lucas is on record saying that, but im saying that the episode itself, which he was involved very heavily with ALLOWS for a certain few people to get around that, and that is by setting up a precedent for these guys tapping in to the powers that are above "any Jedi Knight" or that "any Jedi has seen before" im not in any way disregarding those quotes, they apply, but once the ones are dead and their power can be exploited its a different matter and that's a very intentional thing set up in the Episode by Lucas, and Im not sure he'd be at liberty to talk about those such things that he leaves for us to pick apart

”A lot of the concepts of Star Wars are very hard to, really go into in a simple way because they’re far too complex in the end. You know, I put them out there, a very superficial thing, you’d have to really start pulling it apart, and to spend a lot of time to get to the bottom of what’s really going on, especially in terms of thematic issues that are involved in most of this.” -The Phantom Menace Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

”All the seeds have been planted in these movies, in little moments, little lines, in things that, hopefully, when one sees all six together, will resonate back and forth between all the movies, and reveal things.” The Empire Strikes Back Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

Besides the Father says Anakin is "much more" than a Jedi and that hes like the One's so he's on their level of power even before their deaths, their exemption from this is embedded in the material itself

You're a sith lord! You have a very simple view of the universe. I am neither sith nor Jedi. I am much more... And so are you. -Overlords Script

I don't think its a case of using a certain amount of Mortis to tame the Ones, its half light half dark and the Ones are just a reflection of that energy

We can take many forms. The shapes we embody are merely a reflection of the life force around us. -Overlords Script

The Fathers power is the balance between those two sides hes strong because hes got both sides running through him, I think you'd have to pull on the entirety of either side to tame either one of them, and the entire nexus to tame them both at the same time because they are each 50% of the power there if that makes sense. The Fathers got both sides running through him so he has enough power to tame them.

What have you done? It did not have to be this way. Yes, my child, it did. You and I are tied together, runs through me. This way, I take your power. -Ghosts of Mortis Script

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Gray wrote:This “Chosen One Mortis amp” is unique to Anakin. He tames the children by using his power and Mortis, we can’t assume he does it alone. We can’t conclude he doesn’t need the Nexus because only Kenobi tells him, that’s an argument from ignorance consisting of:
The Father doesn’t tell him to use the Nexus, therefore he doesn’t need the Nexus.

Why is it unique to Anakin, anyone can draw on it, everybody is amped by it, but not everybody has the capacity for all of it.

-Relaunched 59 wrote:

Now to make this make as most sense as possible Ill just talk about the functions of a Nexus rq, and how the Force flows, so remember we talked about how Mortis is where all those threads crossed, and as seen in Heart of the Jedi that is basically like an intersection of the threads, except with Mortis its all the threads of every Living thing. The Force flows in two different ways, It surrounds us and it penetrates us, it exists within and around us

“The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.” -A New Hope

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"You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship. -The Empire Strikes Back

The Force within is typically Cosmic Force, which is where the dark side primarily lives as I covered above and the inward turn is associated with selfishness and the dark, where as the light side is selfless and others, its the Force around, the web of Living Force created by all Living things, to be clear the Light Side does still exist from within because there is a light half to the Cosmic Force, you can unlock the Light power within by letting go.

They think inwards only about themselves and the Jedi don't? The Jedi are selfless, they only care about others -Revenge of the Sith

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Gray wrote:This is a serious flaw concerning the interpretation of the narrative. The Father is testing Anakin, which means he's not supposed to give him the answers and actually lead him away, this is evident in the Father pressing Anakin with a choice of one or the other, rather than the real answer which is that the choice is an illusion. He defies the Father's declaration of choice, not using the nexus. This fits the statement you sent

Now on Mortis all of the power in the universe is very easily accessible, all the threads are converged in that very spot, its not simply that Obi-Wan tells him to use it so it means the Father doesn't want him to use it, its the fact that the Father doesn't mention the Nexus once and its not so much that he just doesn't mention it as its a test and hes not trying to revel what to do, remember the test is simply to see how powerful he is, not to see if he can figure out how to beat them, its a test of his power and the Father tells him exactly what to do to unlock that, he does give him the answers, he tells him to choose one, i.e let go of one of them and unlock/sink into that power from within, lets take another look at this quote

Clone Wars Secrets Revealed in 3D wrote:

Anakin defies the Father by tapping into the Nexus, so the Father explicitly doesn't want him to easily use the force around him this was the easy option rather than letting go to free himself, which Anakin doesn't end up doing until ROTS in his fight with Dooku, but he free's himself by way of an inward turn, which obviously isnt what the Father had in mind, but Anakin passes the test anyways because he still demonstrates the capacity for all the energy there by pulling it from around him. Whats the Father telling him to do? Let go. What does letting go do, free yourself/become one with the power within. How does Anakin DEFY the Father? by using the Nexus, It seems clear to me that if we look into the context and mechanics of the whole situation without just looking at it as blankly as to assume its "he doesn’t need the Nexus because only Kenobi tells him" then it appears that the Father clearly wants Anakin to unleash that same power from within, connect that with Anakin's inner power and the power on Mortis doing the same thing to the galaxy, the Force being interred in Anakin etc, I noticed you talked about that further down so Ill touch on it there, but if none of what I say is true then why is it everything I say always perfectly leads into everything else

It is time to face your guilt and know the truth. ( Loud screech ) Roar!  Whatever he wants, don't do it, master! ( Grunting and gasping ) ( Screeches )  Let them go. I will not play your games.  Oh, but I think you will. I have ordered my children to kill your friends. The question is, which one will you choose to save: Your masr or your apprentice? You must now release the guilt and free yourself by choosing. No! -Overlords Script

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Gray wrote:Your argument ignores the Father stating Anakin would be freed by choosing. This is all a test, Anakin's guilt of choosing one over the other is preventing the act itself, so if he makes a decision to choose one, therefore he is freeing himself. But all in the context of a test, which means it's designed to push Anakin away from the answer, which is the fact that he doesn't have to place master over apprentice or vice-versa.

Think I covered this above mostly, but ye essentially the guilt Anakin feels is set up to be the fog of lies the Jedi created around him, its a prison for him it clouds him its stopping him from balancing himself, the Jedi training served him well but he's more than a Jedi the Jedi didn't know how to train him to be balanced, to not have guilt for stuff contrary to the code like killing the sand people, so they trained him like any other Jedi despite him already having these emotions and attachments etc, this is why Anakin needed Qui-Gon who would have thought him to balance himself from within, Anakin can either free himself via letting go like the Father says or by tapping into his dark side and using those connections, Anakin suffers from possessive love so freeing himself at this point through the light side is a very hard option

Balance is found in the one who faces his guilt -Overlords

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And you blame yourself. Your Jedi training has served you well, Ani, but you are more than a Jedi. Tell me, where is your pain, so I might take it away. I was too late to save you. I failed as a Jedi and I failed you. How so? I tasted only vengeance when I slaughtered so many to avenge your death. It is time you realized that your guilt does not define you, my son. You define your guilt. The only love I feel in my heart is haunted by what would happen should I let go.  Then it is not love. It is a prison. But I... I have a wife. You've met her. She's everything to me.  She is not your destiny. -Overlords Script

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You can love people, but you can’t want to possess them. They’re not yours. Accept that they have a fate. Even those you love most are going to die. You can’t do anything about that. Protect them with your lightsaber, but if they die they were going to die, there’s nothing you can do. All you can do is accept that fact. -George Lucas

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Burning a wedge between him and his dearest, friend and mentor. Obi-Wan Kenobi, is he not the Chosen One, the greatest Jedi to have ever lived? Why then should he be bound by rules designed to limit his power. -Slideshow Star Wars: Anakin Skywalker

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They see your future. They know your power will be too strong to control. Anakin, you must break through the fog of lies the Jedi have created around you. Let me help you to know the subtleties of the Force. -Revenge of the Sith

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A little straight talk might burn through the fog of half-truths and subtle confusions that the Jedi Council had poured into his head. -Revenge of the Sith Novel

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"Soon you will learn to trust your feelings, then you will be invincible" -Attack of the Clones

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Don't fear what you are feeling Anakin, use it! -Revenge of the Sith

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He saw Count Dooku on his knees. He saw lightsabers crossed at the Count's throat. Clouds lifted from his heart: clouds of Jabiim, of Aargonar, of Kamino, of even the Tusken camp. For the first time in too many years he felt young: as young as he really was. Young, and free, and full of light -Revenge of the Sith Novel

And of course this is why Anakin gets > Mortis Anakin statements on the IH, because its actually the first time he has free'd himself, having more than doubled since the Mortis feat.

Gray wrote:The same logic applies to any nexus, object, location etc. The Force is "interred" with all living things, so the claim that "Mortis is the Force, the Force is interred in Anakin, therefore Anakin has the power of Mortis" can apply to every Force user and every planet.

Eh, while I agree ye obviously the Force exists in all things etc, I really don't think thats what is being referred to when they say "The planet IS the Force" we know this because its we indeed get conformation that Mortis is a conduit for all the life energy as covered above, so when it’s “THE force” in these contexts it’s the entire force





and as a result its balance has a direct link to the galaxies, since all those threads run through it which is exactly what happens with Anakin, his internal balance is the balance of the galaxy exactly how its the balance of Mortis, so since we get lines like this...

As his own internal balance was affected, so the galaxy fell to the dark side. the traditional forces of light, such as the Jedi Order, were decimated. -Relaunched Fact File 23

Which are almost identical to lines like this..

"As the Balance on this world crumbles so too shall war escalate in your Galaxy" -Overlords

I really doubt when we also get lines like...

The Force as Anakin knew it was interred with him, and inseparable from him. --Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

That its talking about something that is a given for any living being, by you're logic Han Solo could get a quote like this, but that's clearly not what the quote is trying to convey, Anakin is fundamentally linked to the balance of the galaxy, the balance rests on his decisions, and there is a difference between simply being a living being and having the force within you, and being the point where all the threads cross, embodying the force and that balance point

It was clear to Qui-Gon Jinn that Anakin himself represented the balance between the light and dark sides of the Force. -Relaunched Fact File 23

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The Father wanted Anakin Skywalker to take his place. He recognised that Anakin was powerful enough to maintain the balance between dark and light, but Anakin rejected the offer -Relaunched Fact File 59

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"Terrifies me, this possibility does, though feel fear I know we Jedi must not. If Anakin were ever to fall...the prospects for the galaxy, dire would be. We must hope the balance he brings is for good" -Clone Wars Comic UK #7: Yoda Code

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As war enters its final, dramatic days, the fiery turmoil within Anakin Skywalker gathers strength and threatens to consume him. Localities and agendas rest at him from all sides conflicting demands are made of him and sacrifices begged. Though he knows it, not. The slave become saviour holds the fate of the galaxy in his artificial palm. His choice governs the coming storm, the tempest will either be tamed or it will be unleashed upon the galaxy as an unstoppable scourge. Binding all under the tyranny of the Sith -Slideshow Star Wars: Anakin Skywalker

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-Star Wars Comic Magazine 40 wrote:

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I cannot force you to do this. The choice must be yours. But leave and your selfishness shall haunt you and the galaxy. -Overlords

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He is like the father, the point of Balance connected to all things and this is evident from his birth, he's the embodiment of the Force because his birth is linked to all Living things

Darth Plagueis once boasted to his apprentice that he had found a way to create new life by directly manipulating the Midichlorians present in all living beings through the dark side of the Force. the resulting being would be the very embodiment of the force and be capable of incredible things. -Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 59

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Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.
Darth Plagueis
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Anakin Skywalker was perhaps the living result of Darth Plagueis’ experiments in creating life.He was certainly powerful, joining with Sidious to become Darth Vader even as his master destroyed the Old Republic and became Emperor of the Galaxy -Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 59

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Gray wrote:This quote that “As his own internal balance was affected, so the galaxy fell to the dark side.” is not evidence of one causing the other. What we do know, however, is that there are greater factors that led both to happen around the same time, and that does not mean the two events are intertwined having direct effects on each other. Even the grammatical structure only highlights that the events are correlated, not cause-and-effect.

I completely disagree that this does not imply a cause and affect, Grammatically, the implication that Anakin's internal balance affects the balance of the galaxy is highlighted by the phrase "so the galaxy fell to the dark side." The word "so" in this context serves as a conjunction that indicates a cause-and-effect relationship. It links Anakin's internal balance to the consequence that the galaxy fell to the dark side. The grammatical construction makes it clear that the state of the galaxy is a result of Anakin's internal struggles and choices. the quote implies a cause-and-effect relationship between Anakin's internal balance and the balance of the galaxy. Specifically, it suggests that Anakin's internal struggles and choices have a direct impact on the state of the galaxy, Anakin's fall to the dark side and his internal imbalance are depicted as factors that contribute to the galaxy's descent into darkness and the decimation of the Jedi Order, which represents the traditional forces of light. This cause-and-effect relationship underscores the central role that Anakin plays in the fate of the galaxy and with the emphasis on the significance of Anakin's choices, the narrative reinforces the idea that his internal balance and moral decisions are intricately tied to the destiny of the galaxy, and again thats because all the threads pass through both Anakin and Mortis, they have the same relationship, that same link we talked about above. again we have to look at the evidence in conjunction not take it so much on a case by case as to ignore the obvious implications on a broader scale, and sure I agree that there are other factors that cause that to happen, but from a force perspective that doesn't preclude Anakin's fall being synonymous with all the other stuff that happens, its explicitly all linked exactly how the son getting angry is synonymous with a galactic imbalance, its all a cause and effect all happening at the same time because all of life is connected to Anakin and to Mortis, it’s the same link, taking the other supporting material I posted above into account I think this looks fairly clear

Gray wrote: Because ironically, we can create a similar quote with "As his own internal balance was affected, so the Order 66 was transmitted to the clones." This is just another example of correlation, and not causation. The difference between that quote and "As the Balance on this world crumbles so too shall war escalate in your Galaxy" is identification of two events having similarities, and one declaring what shall happen because of a previous event

Except we don't get told that order 66 is linked with Anakin, they don't activate when Anakin goes dark but the dark side does, "As his own internal balance was affected, so the Order 66 was transmitted to the clones," differs in its context and meaning. Order 66 is a specific directive issued by the Sith to execute the Jedi, and it is not directly related to Anakin's internal balance. Therefore, this comparison does not follow the same thematic pattern as the original quote and doesnt undermine the idea of causation between Anakin's decisions and the galaxy's fate. but eh technically speaking anyways, looking through that same lense the clone army causes a massive boost in dark side from all the evil deeds and killing so in a sense that can still be correct right, because we've talked about this link, its all synonymous, and we established that Anakin works the same as Mortis, so we can just look at how Mortis works with something like this, The Son's actions on Mortis cause an immediate increase in strength for the Sith, so his actions are directly synonymous with something the Sith are doing at that time which could be like a ritual or something like Order 66 for example, that would be abstracted in the Son going crazy on Mortis killing the daughter or something etc, exactly the same thing applies to Anakin, whats going on in the galaxy is abstracted within him and vice-versa, So I don't think this is reason to dismiss the quote, it all seems to line up fine with the functions of this concept

Gray wrote:Not necessarily, the dark side exists in the temporal world, and he only needs the ship. Anakin merely acts as a catalyst for his plans. There’s an external factor affecting Mortis, which is why it acts as a “prison.” Plus, they were able to exist within the temporal world before being transported.

Why does he just need the ship if he can fly? and is apparently universal and why does he need Anakin to fly the ship, couldn't anyone do that? if he's got these so called withdrawing from the Temporal world powers you mentioned above then why doesnt he just change realm rq or teleport to another planet? Remember what I talked about above, the Ones are a reflection of the energy around them, the energy on Mortis. He needs that energy to manifest, and that energy exists on Mortis, or within Anakin, which again is why Anakin unlocks the Son's full potential and is key to unleashing his power, It acts as a prison because it locks his power there, previously before they left the temporal world their power was not locked there. sure there is Dark side in the temporal world, I have no doubt he could manifest on say Korriban, but he needs that convergence of dark power to manifest fully, which is why he's after Anakin. Your interpretation ignores the whole narrative of Anakin unlocking the Son's full potential and leaves a lot holes as mentioned above.

Gray wrote:I’ve seen you using this quote to establish an argument for a sort of power mechanic behind this, which there is, we agree on that, but I’d say it’s more than that. Anakin is the key to controlling the universe, but not the only key. He’s a chess piece basically where he alone can’t change the course of the universe.

Sure I agree that Anakin is a Chess piece in a sense but Id say that works in tandem with what I am saying too, it doesn't exactly preclude my claim, but I would definitely disagree on the part where you say "he alone can’t change the course of the universe" I think some of the quotes above speak for themselves in regards to this "his choice governs the coming storm" "upon whos decisions rest the fate of the galaxy" "as his own internal balance was affected so the traditional forces of light where decimated" is it all just a coincidence that all of this lines up? furthermore if we stop narrowing down on this one quote and look at it in comparison with the others such as these...

By bringing the chosen one here, you've shown me my potential. You've only yourself to blame. -Altar of Mortis

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What do you want with Anakin Skywalker? He is the key to everything To bring balance to the force? To destroy

• The Phantom Apprentice
  

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Clone Wars: Secrets Revealed in 3D | Pablo Hidalgo wrote:

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Then it becomes apprent there is something more going on with Anakin than him simply being a chess piece and not a vessel through which to unlock the fullest potential of the dark side, and we talked about corruption above right, if the power within Anakin is the same as Mortis, and he can be used to unlock the Son's full potential outside of Mortis, and the balance of the galaxy is his internal balance, both sides passing through him like the Father, light and dark, then its paramount to the Sith to corrupt that, because through Anakin is pretty much the only way they can corrupt the entire force, so in corrupting Anakin completely, Sidious turns the light dark he got what the Son wanted, I noticed you talked about the Master apprentice relationship further down and this leads on to that so ill get to that in a moment

Relaunched 108 wrote:

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this is what you do’ and basically you sell your soul to the devil. When you do that, and you’re afraid and you’re on the Darkside and you fall off the golden path of compassion because you are greedy George Lucas Interview with wife Mellody Hobson - Virtual Speaker series, 2021

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Gray wrote:`Based on the quote from the star wars databank stating "The Son promises that Anakin's future need not be what he saw in his vision, that if he joins the Son, they might destroy the Emperor and establish peace throughout the galaxy." But this appears to be a misinterpretation since the actual words are "Join me, and together we will destroy this emperor you see in your visions.
Then we shall end war, corruption, and suffering throughout the galaxy." So here I don't think this argument is necessarily valid because the databank is attempting to paraphrase what the Son says, but got it wrong by switching "might" with "will".  You can argue it's an out-of-universe statement attempting to explain the odds of that happening, but that wouldn't align with "The Son promises," he never promises they might win, rather they will win. Therefore, the argument that the duo might defeat the emperor because the databank said so is erroneous due to the nature of the statement.`

Eh, I dislike having to label things a mistake or wrong or anything like that, I think its much more likely that quote is very intentional, besides it doesn't actually seem unlikely given the evidence I have laid out anyway so we have no real reason to dismiss it tbh, I wouldnt say its erroneous simply because it doeant allign with what the son actually says, I think Its different coming from an OOU description of the episode and the son trying to persuade Anakin, its like Vader telling Luke "join me son and together we will destroy the Emperor and bring order to the galaxy" Its what Luke wants to hear he isn't gonna be like "come on Luke I think we might have a shot at this" where as the OOU description is talking from a factual perspective, that they might win, but they might not, and again when looking at this quote don't take it on its own, consider all the other stuff we talked about and how it ties in perfectly to it all, how it actually makes sense when examining whats going on here. there's an awful lot of coincidences here don't you think


You don’t have to, I’m not even sure if there’s anything to be contested there that would drastically affect the argument.

Well mainly just the fact Anakin's power is at least ~ Father in S3 and then his growth highlights the gap between his S3 self and ROTS self whom Sheev is = to, through his possession of him. And that gap is insane he like quadruples.


Not necessarily, there’s a lack of evidence of this concept existing, well, it’s summarized in the Sith becoming stronger because of the dark side. Sheev gets stronger because the dark side gets stronger. This is only hinted at with the dyad, and even then they had to work at it and be in close proximity to share power, something that Palpatine admits he and Anakin couldn’t achieve. It “paled” in comparison.



It is true that both connections to the Force are used for dark deeds, however the difference being Sidious uses Anakin as a weapon, Talzin uses the souls for power. It's also supported in the statement that talks about Sidious coveting Anakin's power, then using that power by having Anakin massacre the temple

I have to strongly disagree there again, let me explain the concept in a bit more depth, the dark side needs bait and a vessel, so remember how we talked about corruption, well the bait is to corrupt, to draw power from, Sheev is the vessel his apprentice is the bait and he draws power from his apprentice, the Living Force bait, he doesn't just use his apprentices as weapons, yes they do act as his ig you could say physical half, but he also draws on his apprentices Living Force connection

Even Vader was unaware of the shrine’s existence. But it was here that they would one day work together the way Sidious and Plagueis had to coax from the dark side its final secrets. In the intervening years he had actually come to appreciate Plagueis for the planner and prophet he had been. Such perilous machinations required two Sith, one to serve as bait for the dark side, the other to be the vessel. Success would grant them the power to harness the full powers of the dark side, and allow them to rule for ten thousand years. -Tarkin

Son of Dathomir wrote:

Which is basically exactly what we see happen with Sheev in TROS, its the same concept at play here that these Sith vessels need to find a way to compensate for their degeneration, Sheev uses his apprentices Living Force connection to keep his healthy form






We see Jerec do this with the Valley of the Jedi, which is basically another infinite well of power same as Anakin

Jerec is powerful enough already - just check his Health stat of 2000! - but now he has an eternal source of regeneration. The Dark Master has learned how to tap into the Force Energy flow at the core of the Valley -Dark Forces II Official Strategy Guide

"The hour is far too late to trouble yourself with such matters my dear. It may help you to know however, that I am not a natural force-wielder like the Jedi or Sith. I use dark magic to achieve power, but as a Bardottian you possess a strong connection to the living force. A connection that will now be mine." “Never. I will not succumb to your evil.” -The Disappeared Script

Much like Darth Sidious seeks to use Anakin Skywalker’s powerful connection to the Force for his own dark deeds, the Great Mother is willing to sacrifice the Queen Julia and so many other harvested souls to attain a power greater than the Sith or the Jedi -The Disappeared Rewatch

if the quote was trying to convey a point about Sheev using Anakin as a weapon I don't think it would quite be worded like this he isnt exactly using Anakin's Living Force connection as a weapon he is using Anakin as a weapon, not specifically his force connection, now sure Anakin is his weapon too but it’s more than that he is using his apprentice same way the Son wanted to, remember it’s all a metaphor, he needs him to take form and unleash the dark side in its fullest, as covered above, and again lets look at all of this in combination, draw these connections and establish the functions and mechanics, don't just take each bit of evidence on its own, again notice how this all ties in and each concept im talking about feeds into the other, or is it just one big coincidence?

Gray wrote:For Sidious, this is all designed to tilt the balance towards the dark side, of which Anakin acts as a catalyst. 
Pretty sure I’ve found a couple cracks and whatnot, but I think the holistic distinction thus far should point to Lucas+Co’s consistent depiction of Force wielders as beyond mortals considering George opened layers to the cosmology of the Force provided that “it felt removed from the way mortals interact with it.”

Sure Anakin acts as the catalyst, because of the bonds he shares that can be corrupted, Sheev can unlock the dark sides fullest potential by corrupting him, which he does, I think you are underestimating the significance that catalyst plays I agree the Force users power is beyond Mortals I very much concur with the idea that they are supreme beings, but I think the episode itself sets up and allows for other later threats to enter that realm of power, through exploiting their power and exploiting Anakin's too who is also established as someone on their level of power to begin with, the ones are supreme but their death changes the power dynamic and all hell breaks loose. I take it we are doing 3 posts a side so make your last move my friend...

Vaelias wrote:I think this is a clear nod to the whole Foreseen One sequence and the exploiting of the One's powers etc, either way both of the impossibly powerful quotes are from the same POV and that’s the Fact File narrator so I don’t think it’s taking a comparison of Maul and Sheevs power disparity into account there, it’s simply labelling Sidious impossibly powerful which it also labels The Ones and I think that just acts as it’s own tier there or outlining a certain threshold

Well grammatically we see why there’s two different modifiers within the quotes, which gives us evidence of who it applies to concerning "who" views them as impossibly powerful. Since these are from the same source, the narrator views both as impossibly powerful, but on two different scopes. In the first quote, the Ones are described as "impossibly powerful Force entities" in a more general sense. In the second quote, the Sidiouis described as "impossibly powerful," but it's more specific and focused on the confrontation between Maul, Savage Opress, and the Sith Lord. We can switch around the second and phrase it as “The Sith Lord was impossibly powerful, but the brothers fought him together.” This illustrates who perceives Sidious as impossibly powerful more clearly, since the second phrase is always connected to the first. The grammatical technique used is called juxtaposition to convey the contrast between the Sith Lord's power and the brothers'. The simplest explanation is Sidious' power isn't impossibly powerful in general, but in reference to his power gap above the brothers. And to recap, this is supported by other entities similar to the Ones having power beyond the regular “layers of cosmology” that are inexplicable, beyond mortals, etc. So if you take all the quotes and combine them together, you have the Father being described as unspeakably powerful, God-Like, able to wield the Force in ways no known mortal can, can manipulate the Force like no other, much more powerful than any Jedi Knights, more powerful with the Force than any Jedi has seen before, ultra-being, most powerful bearers of the force, improbably powerful. I don’t think any other characters have this much of an overwhelming consensus of indicators regarding their power as transcendent as this.

Vaelias wrote:For one there's an implication for that very thing in the Episodes in fact its the reason why Anakin was summoned there, the Sith are getting too strong and it will be the undoing of life aka The Force aka destroys all the symbiotic circles and destroys the Universe.

That’s an indirect consequence, not attainable through their power alone. The Sith start a chain reaction that catalyzes the destruction of life, but never reaches that point. They had to achieve it through other means (military, alliances, etc.)

Vaelias wrote:it certainly does not mean the Son is supreme since he can do this

Considering they had to withdraw from the temporal world, and their numerous other indicators concerning their nature , the Father’s testimony alone is sufficient. Sidious in the movies is shown as a strategist who isn’t capable of handling the tasks alone, which is why he has to rely on the Death Star. Even in ROTJ, he’s below the likes of Bendu who, while holding back, outputs 1.32e11 level attacks. The Son is leaps and bounds beyond that because he’s not bound by the same limitations as regular individuals. "You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe." The simplest interpretation is he has the capability to directly destroy the fabric of the universe.

Vaelias wrote:Further evidence of the Ones not being these galaxy busters is in the narrative itself

That doesn’t bind the version of the Son I’m using nor Lucas’ narrative, therefore it’s not applicable.

Vaelias wrote:I don't know what makes you think Sidious isnt capable of destroying the universe

Let’s see, he has to rely on the Death Star, isn’t powerful enough to stop his body from being destroyed by the reactor, has a staggering lack of feats to support that implication in the movies, not the narrative pushed forward by Lucas, and him being below multiple other Force entities who have the power to destroy mere city blocks. Also the simplest evidence, he hasn’t destroyed it. Directly he can’t, indirectly, he can, but that does not place Sidious as having the capabilities to do such if he has to rely on external measures to achieve that goal. All of the evidence you sent points to the dark side destroying the universe, not Sidious himself. An argument can be made that this applies to the Son too, however as the Father notes, it applies to the both of his children, therefore their capabilities being an inherent trait regardless of Force affinity.

Vaelias wrote:I don’t see their ability to leave the temporal world as a measure of power it’s just cos they are Celestials

In canon there’s a connection between having enough power to transcend and then retaining the power that exists within that next layer, which George talks about and aligns with that existence on a transcendent scale, which inherently has a power dynamic behind. That’s why their abilities, some connected to power, are thematic representations of that. If you’re going to be the representative, consistently, then it logically follows you have to be the most attuned to that theme. Characters like Bendu can appear and disappear because of their connection. The same can be said for the Ones who, despite their unique existence, had that ability to withdraw from the temporal world, and there appears to be a power aspect behind why they can’t leave, which means the cause is also power-related. Sith spirits and Force ghosts can travel because of their existence, which in a way entails a power aspect that doesn’t translate to their actual power, more-so hax that comes with the existence. With the Ones, it becomes clear it's a combination of their inherent power and their unique relationship with the Force that enables them to transcend conventional limits.

Vaelias wrote:I think I mostly covered this above, I agree the Ones benefit from their unique nature as celestials but again I still think amount of force energies is something else entirely which by ROTS I think Sheev has in spades over the Father in TCW, as I explained in my opener Sheev essentially represents a full potential Son, he does everything the Son wanted gets Anakin and has access to the Son's power

The dark side is significantly stronger than what it was in season 3, and Sidious benefits from that post 66. But not to a point where he grows leaps and bounds, which is reflected in Gillard’s system. So if we look at would Lucas put that version of Sidious beyond Superman, I’d say no. And it goes back to Lucas portraying the Ones as gods, concepts beyond Superman. Basically our version of God attuned to the special energy. That’s why we see a stark difference in how they fight, they never use physical weapons such as lightsabers. post-Mortis, Anakin consistently shows relativity against small armies of droids, the likes of Dooku who can’t defeat 30 pirates with the Force alone via Filoni, outmaneuvered by Magna Guards, energy whips, a holding back Obi-Wan no lightsaber who hasn’t shown any noticeable growth since Mortis, can’t break through steel doors with the Force, and many other anti-feats that dispel the notion of this Anakin being any different than pre-Mortis.

Vaelias wrote:It seems to be a no-brainer that he could tame one of them it’s not even a question or something the father even considers, and we have Father saying "Only the Chosen One could tame both my children"

There’s no evidence that he can tame them, that’s where the disjunction is. At best it’s a test of his capabilities based on rumors, and from those rumors we can conclude the Father is testing whether or not he can tame both of the children. He has no background knowledge to support his assessment other than the test himself. Can you draw the implication that Anakin can tame at least one based on the quote "But which one will you choose to save, your master, or your apprentice", yes of course, but it runs contradictory to what we know. That logic is essentially 1. Anakin is placed in an ultimatum. 2. Anakin must be able to fulfill at least one part of the ultimatum because he's placed in the ultimatum. The conclusion (point 2) is essentially restating the premise (point 1) without providing any meaningful evidence to support it, which is a circular reasoning fallacy. We also have to consider why he’s asking him to choose one, there’s no evidence to support the Father making him choose one because he knows he’s powerful enough for at least one.

Vaelias wrote:So they just make Sheev out to be the far better an these quotes include the Son when they say Sidious is the "most dangerous practitioner of the dark side" "The most dangerous entity" with "Unprecedented power" a being of "supreme evil" all of these are not specifically Sith related but are all inclusive to any entity of the Dark Side, even the empowered Son on Mortis, and of course we know why Palpatine is getting all these quotes now.

I'd say the first quote speaks more to his position as emperor given the context, since the majority of it focused on his ascension throughout the war, and we know his power isn't unprecedented when we see the likes of Anakin match it, and the other Force entities transcending said "unprecedented power." The second quote talks about Order 66-onward, which doesn’t apply to anyone before said event. The third quote only really says he possesses supreme evil which is fine, that’s a moral judgement. The last quote calls Sidious the most dangerous practitioner of the Sith, if it said the dark side, then it would apply if the context wasn’t during ROTJ.

Vaelias wrote:Besides the Father says Anakin is "much more" than a Jedi and that hes like the One's so he's on their level of power even before their deaths, their exemption from this is embedded in the material itself

He’s not on their level of power just because he’s more than a Jedi or Sith. If we take for example, Yoda, he’s a Jedi, yet more powerful than Anakin. If the argument is “Anakin’s on the level of the Ones because they both possess different views,” then it leads to a disconnect. The Father’s emphasizing that there is more to the Force and their role in the galaxy than simply aligning with one of these two opposing orders, specifically when it comes to balance. All they’re doing is recognizing the false dichotomy that there’s only the Jedi and Sith views.

Vaelias wrote:Why is it unique to Anakin, anyone can draw on it, everybody is amped by it, but not everybody has the capacity for all of it.

Because it’s an isolated event never replicated on top of Hidalgo clarifying nexus interactions “are not guaranteed.” Neither Kenobi nor Ahsoka acknowledge their amped Force power, nor is there an observed difference in their performances, we only see it with Anakin.

Vaelias wrote:remember the test is simply to see how powerful he is, not to see if he can figure out how to beat them, its a test of his power and the Father tells him exactly what to do to unlock that, he does give him the answers, he tells him to choose one, i.e let go of one of them and unlock/sink into that power from within

That in itself is the Father pushing Anakin to lose. If he lets go and picks one, he fails the test. It can’t be simplified to “a test of power” because the test Anakin confronts is both strategic and psychological on top of power. The Father could’ve easily made Anakin fight both of them and press Anakin to tame them, but he doesn’t. Or even during the test, he could’ve told Anakin to choose both, but he doesn’t. That’s why it’s not just about power, it’s a test of strategy. And surprisingly, Anakin realizes he can use Mortis to save both of them.

Vaelias wrote:Anakin defies the Father by tapping into the Nexus

There’s no evidence to support the Father being against Anakin tapping into the nexus. If the reason is because he doesn’t tell him to, that’s an argument from ignorance. The show itself displays the Father with a neutral stance concerning the Nexus. In order to defy an action, the action itself has to be made clear. The only action he concretely defies is making the choice which was given to him by the Father, the quote states it, the show confirms it. On the contrary, the set up is for him to use Mortis by creating the false dichotomy.

Vaelias wrote:the Father explicitly doesn't want him to easily use the force around him this was the easy option rather than letting go to free himself

He fails the test by freeing himself? That means releasing the guilt by choosing who lives, that means sacrificing one for the other, going against exactly what the Father wants. If only the chosen one can tame both of his children, it defeats the purpose of choosing.

Vaelias wrote:So when it’s “THE force” in these contexts it’s the entire force

That would only apply to Kenobi’s statement, that wouldn’t bind any others due to that specific context, especially since half the quotes predate the concept itself of a planet existing outside spacetime being a conduit for the Force.

The Force as Anakin knew it was interred with him, and inseparable from him.

I’ve been looking at this quote the wrong way for a while. Anakin's former relationship with the Force, particularly his identity as a Jedi and his adherence to the light side, has been was buried & no longer the dominant aspect of his identity, yet remains an integral part of who he is.

Vaelias wrote:there is a difference between simply being a living being and having the force within you, and being the point where all the threads cross, embodying the force and that balance point

Anakin’s the catalyst, not the cause, of balance. His own actions lead to a chain reaction because Anakin brought balance by destroying the Sith, not by his own internal emotions changing. The same way Anakin brought imbalance by destroying the Jedi.

Vaelias wrote:I completely disagree that this does not imply a cause and affect, Grammatically, the implication that Anakin's internal balance affects the balance of the galaxy is highlighted by the phrase "so the galaxy fell to the dark side." The word "so" in this context serves as a conjunction that indicates a cause-and-effect relationship. It links Anakin's internal balance to the consequence that the galaxy fell to the dark side. The grammatical construction makes it clear that the state of the galaxy is a result of Anakin's internal struggles and choices. 

Since we know it’s objectively not a cause and effect relationship grammatically. There’s a relationship between Anakin's inner turmoil and the events unfolding in the galaxy, without necessarily specifying a clear causal link. The conjunction "so" is used here to create a correlative conjunction structure, indicating a relationship between the two clauses. However, the relationship is not one direct causation but parallelism. And as we know, correlation doesn't inherently mean causation. Imagine a study that finds a strong correlation between the number of ice cream sales at a beachside ice cream parlor and the number of drownings at the nearby beach. During the summer months, when ice cream sales are high, the number of drownings also tends to increase.While there is a clear correlation between these two factors, it would be incorrect to conclude that eating ice cream causes drownings or vice versa. There's no reason to establish or imply a causal relationship. The entire disconnect lies in the “The word "so" in this context serves as a conjunction that indicates a cause-and-effect relationship” because it's a correlative conjunction, not a causal conjunction. All it’s missing is the word “shall”, like the Father’s quote possesses, which is a predictive causal relationship.

Vaelias wrote:Your interpretation ignores the whole narrative of Anakin unlocking the Son's full potential and leaves a lot holes as mentioned above. 

The good thing is it’s not my interpretation: “He needs your ship to leave the planet. You must leave before he can take it.” From this, we can conclude the Son’s power only extends to Mortis because of its “prison” aspect, and that the ship can give him access to the temporal world without Anakin’s help.

Vaelias wrote:I think some of the quotes above speak for themselves in regards to this "his choice governs the coming storm" "upon whos decisions rest the fate of the galaxy"

He can have all of these quotes and still lack the capability to change the course of the galaxy alone, which we see happen. And the storytelling emphasizes the collective efforts and interactions of various characters and factions in determining the galaxy's fate, rather than attributing it solely to one individual's actions. Take ROTJ when Anakin brings balance, he does it, but not by himself.

Vaelias wrote:Then it becomes apparent there is something more going on with Anakin than him simply being a chess piece and not a vessel through which to unlock the fullest potential of the dark side.

All he’s shown to be thus far is a means to an end. Anakin catalyzes galactic domination plans consistently. Even as Vader, he ends up being a chess piece even though Sidious is leagues beyond him. I guess you can compare Sidious to the Son in that way, they both recognize Anakin is their greatest tool. That’s why he immediately converts him as his ally.

Vaelias wrote:Eh, I dislike having to label things a mistake or wrong or anything like that

I feel like this is a very crucial mistake though, not as significant as say Lucas’ Force speed in TPM, but it’s not the first time the Databank has messed up IU information either. They messed up Kanan telling the Inquisitor he let go of fear and put “attachment,” they said Maul sent the hyperdrive into the orbit of a moon instead of a planet, said Palpatine predicted Anakin would become a great Jedi instead of foresaw, etc. It’s probably human error most times but nonetheless relevant as we have to consider the hypothetical “if they saw the correct quote would they enter it?”

Vaelias wrote:its like Vader telling Luke "join me son and together we will destroy the Emperor and bring order to the galaxy" Its what Luke wants to hear he isn't gonna be like "come on Luke I think we might have a shot at this"

The funny thing is they actually get that quote right, they don’t enter a “together they might defeat the emperor.” But taking the Son at his word alone would also be erroneous due to the context, he’s trying to coerce Anakin into taking his side, and that all goes back to the nature of the Databank itself. It’s an OOU description with incorrect information, therefore it’s illogical to accept the statement. All the statement itself is recording is what the Son said. Verbatim, “The Son promises.” You can also think of the Databank as a lens if we want to reconcile the IU difference, since it’s not infallible. If the Databank wants to think the Son promised Anakin they might overthrow the Emperor, and the show itself doesn’t, then we take the show’s version. If the Databank just said “together, they might overthrow the Emperor” then I’d concede that statement, but its description is trying to restate what the Son said, not what he’s capable of.

Vaelias wrote:Well mainly just the fact Anakin's power is at least ~ Father in S3

How is Anakin~The Father in S3 when the Ones have supremacy quotes within the same season/episode? For that to work you’d have to ignore the quotes, then assume the feat Anakin does by using the nexus solidifies him on that level, but then you’d also have to bring in the assumption it takes equal effort, equal use of the nexus, etc. Which goes against Occam’s Razor big time. “Anakin tames the Ones using Mortis, The Father can also tame the Ones using Mortis, therefore they must be on a similar power level” just appears to be a false equivalence but Anakin’s anti-feats post Mortis also reinforce that.

Vaelias wrote:Sheev is the vessel his apprentice is the bait and he draws power from his apprentice, the Living Force bait, he doesn't just use his apprentices as weapons, yes they do act as his ig you could say physical half, but he also draws on his apprentices Living Force connection 

This scenario seems to be negligible in a lot of scenarios, mainly on the basis I’m pretty sure the movies/shows ignore this concept. So if we’re going off the premise Sheev draws power from the apprentice, and the apprentice dies yet Sheev grows stronger, what’s the relevance? It doesn’t seem significant nor have I witnessed any high ranking sources imply it.

Such perilous machinations required two Sith, one to serve as bait for the dark side, the other to be the vessel.

This seems to fit the physical aspect I was talking about with Anakin, his actions strengthen the dark side, Sidious gains from it. The apprentice entices the dark side to emerge/grow, and the master gains from that. “And what of the Sith?” Obi-Wan said. “Dooku’s death should have at least begun the weakening of the darkness, but instead it feels stronger than ever. I fear Master Yoda’s intuition is correct: that Dooku was merely the apprentice to the Sith Lord, not the Master.” Strong, this Sith Lord is, Yoda thought as their lightsabers whirled and clashed and whirled again. It should not have been a surprise. With the strength of the dark side growing, the Sith must, logically, have grown stronger.

Vaelias wrote:if the quote was trying to convey a point about Sheev using Anakin as a weapon I don't think it would quite be worded like this he isnt exactly using Anakin's Living Force connection as a weapon he is using Anakin as a weapon, not specifically his force connection

The overarching theme here is exploiting Force-sensitives for power and manipulation, the methods in which the exploitation occurs is different, but that wouldn’t change the comparison. It all lies in the

Much like Darth Sidious seeks to use Anakin Skywalker’s powerful connection to the Force for his own dark deeds

the most accurate explanation of this quote is that both the great mother and sidious exploit force connections to further their goals. The Great Mother actually is trying to attain the Cosmic aspect combined with the living through sacrifice, Sidious is trying to attain galactic domination through Anakin’s power as his warrior.

Vaelias wrote:I agree the Force users power is beyond Mortals I very much concur with the idea that they are supreme beings, but I think the episode itself sets up and allows for other later threats to enter that realm of power, through exploiting their power and exploiting Anakin's too who is also established as someone on their level of power to begin with, the ones are supreme but their death changes the power dynamic and all hell breaks loose. 

The only other entities that I’ve seen that come close to that realm is the Priestesses, their portrayal/hype up as manifestations of the Cosmic Force itself is more than enough to speak to their capabilities, but even if we look at it from a conceptual standpoint, none of the mortals should come close to the entities because of their nature, that would just take away from their nature, significance, uniqueness etc. Especially since they have layers of the Force that they and only they can access, on top of the multiple descriptors of being like gods/divine, if you’re going to put a mortal against a god, the god would absolutely smite the mortal. In a logarithmic sense, the layers of the Force should increase in complexity, and with that power, which is a very consistent theme.
That’s why Luke’s projection is unprecedented in movies thus far due to it tapping into multiple aspects of the Force. If there was a quote of Anakin acting as god that would be neat, but this all goes back to the difference between the entities and mortals being that Superman aspect that Lucas talks about. Most of the meta-Force concepts rely on too much unnecessary assumptions, which is why I think you’ll find most of my refutations closely align with Occam’s Razor even though it’s an interpretation. Here’s a TL;DR:
Premise 1: The Father is consistently described in the narrative as unspeakably powerful, god-Like, and much more powerful than any mortal.
Premise 2: The Father's power is characterized as being beyond the reach of even the most powerful Force users in the galaxy, and he is recognized as one of the most powerful bearers of the Force by Lucas himself, as well as Chee, indicating a solemn SG placement.
Premise 3: Sidious, while formidable, lacks the same level of hype, evidence, credibility, and transcendent power attributed to the Father. Sidious' power, while vast, is rooted in multi-sourced jumbled interpretations that contain multiple fallacies and quasi-unkown meta-Force concepts not recognized in prevailing source material.
Conclusion: Therefore, based on the consistent descriptions of the Father's unparalleled power and his transcendent nature, it can be reasonably concluded that the Father is more powerful than Sidious.

THE POST THAT MADE YOU PUT SHEEV > THE FATHER

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Gray wrote:Well grammatically we see why there’s two different modifiers within the quotes, which gives us evidence of who it applies to concerning "who" views them as impossibly powerful. Since these are from the same source, the narrator views both as impossibly powerful, but on two different scopes. In the first quote, the Ones are described as "impossibly powerful Force entities" in a more general sense. In the second quote, the Sidiouis described as "impossibly powerful," but it's more specific and focused on the confrontation between Maul, Savage Opress, and the Sith Lord. We can switch around the second and phrase it as “The Sith Lord was impossibly powerful, but the brothers fought him together.” This illustrates who perceives Sidious as impossibly powerful more clearly, since the second phrase is always connected to the first. The grammatical technique used is called juxtaposition to convey the contrast between the Sith Lord's power and the brothers'. 

Both quotes are from the same Fact File Narrator, so its a consistent narrative voice. Both these quotes are in the exact same issue a few pages apart from eachother, the consistency suggests that the narrator is using the same language to draw connections, describing characters within one set context, the Fact File's/ The Author's. The narrator's description of both the Ones and Sidious as "impossibly powerful" probably isnt intended to highlight a power disparity between Maul, Savage, and Sidious. Instead, it's emphasising that these characters exist in a realm of power beyond the norm considering all I have laid out regarding the exploiting of the One's power and the whole vision sequence with Sidious who they just "might" beat, It's more plausible to consider that the consistent use of the phrase serves a broader thematic purpose, the author is drawing a direct parallel between the two, the idea that the description of the Ones as "impossibly powerful Force entities" is more universal while Sidious being described as "impossibly powerful" is specific to his confrontation with Maul and Savage Opress is an interpretation based on a selective analysis of the context. your assuming that the author is making nuanced distinctions, and changing contexts and perspectives, if we consider the consistency of the narrator's language thoughout all of Fact File, and that there is a lot of evidence pointing in the direction of Sidious having One's like power, it becomes apparent that a broader thematic point is being made. Now I know its not the strongest bit of evidence but I believe the initial point you made here was "This description is unique to the Ones" and I know it was the 'unspeakably powerful" quote and not the impossibly powerful one, unspeakably/impossibly same difference, the point here is that accolades like that are not only not exclusive to the ones at all, but are also used to draw thematic connections and parallels to Sidious in the same source material. This point does not stand either way you look at it

Gray wrote:The simplest explanation is Sidious' power isn't impossibly powerful in general, but in reference to his power gap above the brothers. And to recap, this is supported by other entities similar to the Ones having power beyond the regular “layers of cosmology” that are inexplicable, beyond mortals, etc. So if you take all the quotes and combine them together, you have the Father being described as unspeakably powerful, God-Like, able to wield the Force in ways no known mortal can, can manipulate the Force like no other, much more powerful than any Jedi Knights, more powerful with the Force than any Jedi has seen before, ultra-being, most powerful bearers of the force, improbably powerful. I don’t think any other characters have this much of an overwhelming consensus of indicators regarding their power as transcendent as this.

The simplest perhaps, but would I say its the most true all things considered, but definitely not, again we have to look at all the evidence in conjunction, notice these patterns and draw the same parallels that are set up by the authors, not hyper focus on technicalities to favour the most simple interpretation when there is clearly a lot more to it than whats on the surface level, you actively have to brush off some of the dialogue to favour these simple interpretations I entirely disagree with the notion that no "other characters have this much of an overwhelming consensus of indicators regarding their power as transcendent as this." as Ive talked about previously there's explicit functions in the episode set up to allow for other people surpassing the One's power, and Sidious gets many quotes that are exactly the same, and even quotes putting him above the One's as I shared in the last post, anything the One's get Sidious gets 3x over

Gray wrote:That’s an indirect consequence, not attainable through their power alone. The Sith start a chain reaction that catalyzes the destruction of life, but never reaches that point. They had to achieve it through other means (military, alliances, etc.)

I think you are misunderstanding that whole convo with Anakin, The Father likens the very reason the One's had to leave the Galaxy to the current situation with the Mortals, its the same issue going on, they are exploiting that same power the key issue is too much power in the galaxy, which is why the One's left the Galaxy in the first place and now the same things happening with the Mortals, so they need help. 

(I've taken out the filler parts where Anakin is like Huh What Uhhh so to get to the core of the conversation make it a little more clear)

Overlords wrote:My children and I can manipulate the force like no other, therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites.

they could tear the very fabric of our universe.

Then why reveal yourselves to us?

There are some who would like to exploit our power. The sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it. When news reached me that the chosen one had been found, I needed to see for myself.

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I made a video on this topic, ill just add it here might get the point across a bit better, help visualize

Gray wrote:Considering they had to withdraw from the temporal world, and their numerous other indicators concerning their nature , the Father’s testimony alone is sufficient. Sidious in the movies is shown as a strategist who isn’t capable of handling the tasks alone, which is why he has to rely on the Death Star. Even in ROTJ, he’s below the likes of Bendu who, while holding back, outputs 1.32e11 level attacks. The Son is leaps and bounds beyond that because he’s not bound by the same limitations as regular individuals. "You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe." The simplest interpretation is he has the capability to directly destroy the fabric of the universe.

Well as I said above beings that want to maintain balance in the galaxy having to withdraw from the temporal world to maintain balance doesn’t say much, they had a moral obligation to leave for the sake of the galaxy, the stronger you are the more moral obligation you have to stay balanced so that you dont push the Force out of whack, take the Jedi or the One's as an example, but Sidious doesn't have any Morals, none of this says anything for Sidious because he IS fucking up the balance and he doesn’t care, im sure it would be best if he left too if he cared about that lol. again that's the issue mortals are exploiting this power that was strong enough to require the wielders of it to leave the galaxy for the sake of balance. 


Sure Sidious doesn’t have an immediate destructive capacity to destroy a planet straight up like the Death Star, that’s the whole thing in the OT is that the Force doesn’t allow for shit like that within that medium and the ones exist within that medium too, and as I explained i don’t think the ones can do anything like that either it’s not even a thing the force can do for Lucas, but it still pales in comparison to the force which in the end can yield the same sorta thing on a greater more cosmic scale like tearing the fabric of the universe etc. "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force"


Yes that might be the simplest interpretation but as we covered above the simplest interpretation here is probably not the most sincere, since if we take a look at what tearing the fabric of the galaxy actually is it’s not something that’s unique to the Ones in any capacity and in fact it’s actually a primary function of dark side clouding, which many people can do of whom are directly credited with being able to tear the fabric of the galaxy, like Tenebrous' no name master. so it’s best to not take quotes like this at face value because when you look a little deeper your simple interpretation becomes completely wrong. just because there exists a simple interpretation doesn't mean its the correct one nor does it preclude further depth, in this case there clearly is further depth (much like there is dark side depth for Palps to plunge post Son death kek) which the ignorance of requires ignorance of a lot of the dialogue in the episodes and greater lore 


And sure I’d agree with some of the stuff you said here like them not being bound by the same limitations, they are pure energy right, they are connected to each respective side of the force, they aren’t limited by flesh, and to that extent yes they obviously have some advantages over a mortal, but again my aim is not to establish Sheev as somebody who’s better in every way possible, just that he is far more powerful in terms of amounts of energy he embodies wields and controls etc, the ones are always going to have unique advantages due to their nature, but that’s nothing you can’t compensate for in a fight by being far more powerful, hence why I think Sidious could replicate something akin to what we see the Empowered Son do to the Father, only he could probably toss him around a whole lot more. I noticed you said “even in ROTJ” as if ROTJ Sheev is stronger than ROTS and that he’s below Bendu, well for one I believe the only comparison between The Emperor and Bendu we get is when Vader says that Bendu “pales” in comparison.

Thrawn Alliances wrote:“But understand this. All the strength of the creature you faced on Atollon pales in comparison with the power of the Emperor. Are you truly willing to risk his anger?”

furthermore remember how Sheev draws power from Anakin who’s basically a Dark Mortis, well what happens to Anakin ?? He gets crippled loses a lot of power, but he’s the embodiment of the force so that damage is sustained to the force itself and of course to Sheev who’s drawing on Anakin, they are both weaker at this point, and this ties into the whole master and apprentice relationship too, this is why Sheev starts to decay, he doesn’t have a healthy strong living force connection to draw on to sustain himself, Sheev in the OT is a zombie drawing on a cripple. And needless to say I don’t think extrapolation of power output like Bendu having 1.32e11 attacks (whatever that means) is relevant at all to power, that’s some Vs Wiki scaling shit imo, besides wouldn’t that be more because he’s a massive big gorilla monster thingy anyway lol either way I don’t see how this is relevant to Sidious and the Father in any sense

Gray wrote:That doesn’t bind the version of the Son I’m using nor Lucas’ narrative, therefore it’s not applicable.

I think it’s very applicable given that the team worked directly with Dave Filoni for like everything regarding Abeloth, these guys do speak and work with each other to connect these things, it’s all one universe that they’ve kept consistent, you aren’t gonna get something as out of place as that, it’s no coincidence every time we’ve seen a celestial they’ve been in some sort of prison, and it’s obviously not a universal scale prison lol, and it’s no coincidence that none of the lines in the episodes contradict that either and all actually fit in perfectly with dark side clouding mechanics etc, for any of what you are saying to be true it would have to mean everything I’ve talked about is just one big happy coincidence. The Mortis Arc and later FOTJ Novels where largely crafted around one another, made to fit in, are we really gonna pretend that The Ones are not universal in Legends but are in canon just because this quote isn't part of Disney's timeline, I really don't see that mattering

Troy Denning Interview - Scum and Villainy Podcast (2014) wrote:We were about a week into it and Leland says there’s something I need to tell you so he told us a little bit about the ones and we said well uh that sounds interesting sounds a lot like what we are doing with Abeloth and he said… yeah, and then he started asking questions and he said let me check, and then he came back and said ok well Dave says this and we said oh cool that’s really cool that ties in, can we do this ? Uhh let me check we had a lot of back and fourth and then after a period of about three of four weeks, we finally had enough of the story of the Ones, Dave could see that this was yeah this was actually tying into what he was doing in a big way It was very clear everybody needed to tie it in and so we asked you know can we do this can you leave us room to do this and Dave very graciously said yeah we can leave you room to do that and basically she became kinda the Mother figure um and he left us room to do that, but we didn’t want to you know I was worried about where he might wanna take, what he was going to do next with the ones

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Gray wrote:Let’s see, he has to rely on the Death Star, isn’t powerful enough to stop his body from being destroyed by the reactor, has a staggering lack of feats to support that implication in the movies, not the narrative pushed forward by Lucas, and him being below multiple other Force entities who have the power to destroy mere city blocks. Also the simplest evidence, he hasn’t destroyed it. Directly he can’t, indirectly, he can, but that does not place Sidious as having the capabilities to do such if he has to rely on external measures to achieve that goal. All of the evidence you sent points to the dark side destroying the universe, not Sidious himself. An argument can be made that this applies to the Son too, however as the Father notes, it applies to the both of his children, therefore their capabilities being an inherent trait regardless of Force affinity.

I covered the Death Star stuff above, not letting your body be destroyed is not relevant to being able to destroy the universe, that’s just one of the many downsides of being of flesh which of course the ones aren’t, an neither is Sheev really, that doesn’t even kill Sheev anyway, if the ones where made of flesh and blood no doubt that form would also be destroyed in a reactor shaft too lol, I don’t think feats are relevant to his power destroying the galaxy, his lack of feats is no evidence of the contrary, as I explained above his destructive power isn’t in being able to one shot planets, neither is the Son’s I think we all need to dispel that notion entirely when talking about Star Wars namely Lucas stuff, it’s just not a thing, just not how the force works at all, and it’s such a cringe ComicVine / Anime way of thinking, and when you say no feats support Sheev being able to destroy the galaxy what do you mean exactly ? What were you expecting, Sheev destroying the galaxy with TK or something ? It’s a thing he’s actively doing with his power with his imbalance, it’s happening on a deeper level, which is exactly what the Son would do and was doing, they even get that same “destroy the fabric of the galaxy” line, there’s no feat the Son has either, nothing the Son gets that Sheev doesn’t in this regard. And again I don’t really care about how much city blocks people can destroy because that’s all frankly “insignificant compared to the power of the force” that line btw I think communicates the extent of the medium pretty well, Death Star can destroy planets but Vaders follow up isn’t him implying that the Force can actually throw galaxies and destroy Suns, so the Death Star is insignificant, he’s getting at the fact that the Force can be even more impactful on a more abstracted spiritual level.


Where is this distinction you talk about “directly he can’t, indirectly he can” I don’t see any disconnect to any of this, it’s all synonymous in a force context, he is the imbalance, he is the corruption, it’s his power that’s actively destroying the galaxy, exactly how the Son’s would, the Son didn’t either and him escaping is a metaphor for Order 66, he gets away with Anakin(which I explained the mechanics for above) what it’s not is a metaphor for the immediate end of the Universe, everything the empowered Son does is a metaphor for something Sheev later does do and to a greater extent. Like are you just expecting the Son to like TK the whole galaxy apart or something? That wouldn’t be in keeping with the metaphor nor would it fit within the limitations of the medium. external measures such as what? Using Anakin ? That’s what the Son does, or using the Death Star to inspire fear to cause more corruption, in the end it’s all still just his power, and yes it’s the dark side that’s destroying the universe and who embodies that dark side ? It’s all his power he’s the disturbance, and it’s a greater disturbance than ever before that includes the empowered Sons very energies and the corrupted Dark Side Fathers energies in KFV.

Gray wrote:In canon there’s a connection between having enough power to transcend and then retaining the power that exists within that next layer, which George talks about and aligns with that existence on a transcendent scale, which inherently has a power dynamic behind. That’s why their abilities, some connected to power, are thematic representations of that. If you’re going to be the representative, consistently, then it logically follows you have to be the most attuned to that theme. Characters like Bendu can appear and disappear because of their connection. The same can be said for the Ones who, despite their unique existence, had that ability to withdraw from the temporal world, and there appears to be a power aspect behind why they can’t leave, which means the cause is also power-related. Sith spirits and Force ghosts can travel because of their existence, which in a way entails a power aspect that doesn’t translate to their actual power, more-so hax that comes with the existence. With the Ones, it becomes clear it's a combination of their inherent power and their unique relationship with the Force that enables them to transcend conventional limits.

Well I mean… are you gonna show any evidence for this lol? U gave me nothing to rebut I’m gonna need a quote that says the reason Bendu can appear and reappear is because of his connection to the force or something lol, and from a certain angle I agree that is true, but it’s not amount of power that allows this it’s connection to that place you are coming in and out of, and how deep that connection runs, you see that with the Dyad and again that’s the same as how it works with spirits where they can manifest in strong light or dark side focal points they have a connection to it’s not “your so powerful you can teleport anywhere” it’s more “your so deeply connected with that place that you can teleport there” but again stuff like that can be limited by physical form too, so yeah with celestials etc I think it is just that, a unique relationship with the force but that doesn’t = amount of power and that’s what I’m arguing here, it is all just a hax thing to do with their nature, same with spirits, but either way you’ve not shown any evidence for this so I can’t do much with it

Gray wrote:Gray Wrote:
The dark side is significantly stronger than what it was in season 3, and Sidious benefits from that post 66. But not to a point where he grows leaps and bounds, which is reflected in Gillard’s system. So if we look at would Lucas put that version of Sidious beyond Superman, I’d say no. And it goes back to Lucas portraying the Ones as gods, concepts beyond Superman. Basically our version of God attuned to the special energy. That’s why we see a stark difference in how they fight, they never use physical weapons such as lightsabers. post-Mortis, Anakin consistently shows relativity against small armies of droids, the likes of Dooku who can’t defeat 30 pirates with the Force alone via Filoni, outmaneuvered by Magna Guards, energy whips, a holding back Obi-Wan no lightsaber who hasn’t shown any noticeable growth since Mortis, can’t break through steel doors with the Force, and many other anti-feats that dispel the notion of this Anakin being any different than pre-Mortis.

Well I mean should I just take that as a concession then lol? Because I think you are missing that Sheev embodies that dark side and unleashes it fully in ROTS, This is very self contradictory, because if you acknowledge that the Dark Side has grown significantly between S3 and ROTS, and that power is no longer guarded by the Son at the Fragile Balance threshold, then I literally don't see how you can say The Son would be stronger than Sidious, you are making an unnecessary distinction between The Sith and the Dark side, Sidious doesn't just benefit from the Dark Side post Order 66, the Dark Side IS Sheev's power growing from S3 up to ROTS and then Order 66 is when he gets Anakin, corrupts the balance and kills the Light Side and becomes even more OP, again ignoring this requires you ignoring lines like "By bringing the Chosen One here you've shown me my potential" and "The Chosen One is the key, he who controls Skywalker will control everything" an then in S7 where Maul says Anakin is key to destroying the Force "He is the key to everything, to bring balance to the Force? To destroy"

Dave Filoni - Secrets of Mortis wrote:Everything is symbolic of everything that takes place in all six Star Wars films

You're entire argument is ignorant of a large portion of the lines and mechanics in the episode, why would the Chosen One be the key for the Son if he was anything less than functionally The Father??? how would he destroy the force if not its embodiment, how could he affect the whole galaxy if he doesn't bare the connections necessary to affect them? I don't think this is even up for debate tbh, so aside from the One's powers being exploited and becoming available for Sidious, you have Anakin there as Sheev's link to higher powers beyond the cap you seem to put on him (and again yeah that's ignoring the exploiting the power stuff) 

Sheevs growth with Order 66 is equivalent to the Son’s growth had he left Mortis, and you seem to think that would trigger like an instant galaxy death or somethin so your logic doesn’t follow there, furthermore the power on Mortis is the power in the galaxy, Mortis is a place where ALL of it flows but it’s the same energy, so if you admit the dark side is stronger in ROTS than S3 then your admitting Sheev who embodies that stronger power (vs the Son the smaller amount of power) is stronger, again it’s the same energy, and as we talked about above there’s no one guarding it it’s all Sheevs an he can take it beyond what was possible prior to the Ones deaths. Yes I would definitely say that Lucas would put that version of Sidious above Superman and I’d say him having those lines about exploiting the ones power are how he allows for that in the episodes and then you’ve got him saying Sidious is literally Satan and all of that. I’d say it’s clear that the S3 + guys are the big bads of all time exploiting the power of the gods and Sidious is the Dark Prophet which I think is visually apparent in Yodas cave vision in S6, this is all further evident when you consider Lucas says Maul was to be like Superman and then he has Sidious slapping Maul 

I doubt that’s the reason we see a difference in how they fight given that Lucas says Yoda “became superman” in AOTC when he brings out his lightsaber, the difference in how they fight doesn’t even matter, the Jedi are only fighting like that in the first place because of war, they aren’t meant to fight at all and that’s how balance is preserved, and the Sith only use lightsabers to fight the Jedi, the ones fighting is just a clash of energies that’s what it symbolises, I don’t think there’s any sorta reliable indicator of power through them not using sabers, all Sith are credited with not having to use a lightsaber, I don’t think that would be a sufficient enough appeal to counter everything I’ve brought up, the ones are just more like OT Yoda and Sheev, both of whom are weaker than their saber wielding PT selves, and in fact one of the main things in the prequels was that the saber fights were proof that these guys are stronger than their OT selves who are more like the Ones, connect that to Yoda becoming superman when he pulls out his saber, I have to fundamentally disagree with you there, the way they fight is not relevant to their power level at all

“To be really honest with you, I was scared to death of this sequence, of how I was going to pull this off, cause this was the biggest risk in the whole movie, could I make this realistic enough to be believable or would it just be this most ludicrous joke. And so I able to add the humor of him being an old man that became ‘Superman’ and went back to an old man. I was able to have fun with it but not make it look silly, which is what I was afraid was going to happen, but I was worried right up to the point where the animators showed me the shot where he walks in and looks tough. Suddenly Yoda in his acting and the way Frank Oz played it, I believed that this was a tough character that you have to watch out for, you know it’s not a transition where you do ‘Oh give me a break’ it’s like ‘oh yeah, this is what we’ve been waiting for’.”
-George Lucas, Attack of the Clones Commentary

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George Lucas: There's a power vacuum so gangsters, like the Hutts, are taking advantage of the situation, and there is chaos. The key person is Darth Maul, who had been resurrected in The Clone Wars cartoons—he brings all the gangs together.

Paul Duncan: Was Darth Maul the main villain?

George Lucas: Yeah, but he's very old, and we have two versions of him. One is with a set of cybernetic legs like a spider, and then later on he has metal legs and he was a little bit bigger, more of a superhero. We did all this in the animated series, he was in a bunch of episodes.

-The Star Wars Archives

Well of course there’s an element of mindset and circumstance in every engagement, I don’t think Anakin’s unleashing his furnace gate on small armies of droids etc, 30 pirates who could all shoot at Dooku omnidirectionally yeh sure I think if the Son was there and he was flesh then he’d worry about that too, these “anti-feats” aren’t gonna change the functions of everything I’ve laid out if we know Dooku is > The Son and Dooku gets stopped by 30 pirates unless there’s an explanation or a circumstance or what have you then you just apply that same thing to the Son, and yeah there’s no notable immediate power distinction in the show between pre and post mortis Anakin but that’s cos he’s not unleashing all that power again in the show he learns how to do it in ROTS, when he finally does what the father says and frees himself on the Invisible Hand, also the show just does not show power progression like that, neither does the films lol, like for example Anakin still has a bit of trouble with Magna guards after stomping Dooku, we know Anakin keeps growing immensely powerful etc but that doesn’t mean he’s gonna be unleashing that fullest power all the time or just start one shotting everything I just don’t think anything would be written or depicted that way, it’s an inner power he has to let out, and everything’s gonna be constrained by the medium anyways, the medium which the Ones also fall under, notice how the Ones despite being these gods are still relatively grounded, they aren’t unleashing massive waves of glowing storms like your average guy from TOR or something, again we need to expel this notion that people would even be depicted like anime strong in a Lucas context to begin with, the force isn’t a dragonball super power is a shared mystical binding spiritual energy, and it’s through disrupting that where the true destruction comes not from throwing a galaxy into another one or something, went off on a bit of a tangent there lol but the point is these guys having anti feats doesn’t change these concepts that are laid out

Gray wrote:There’s no evidence that he can tame them, that’s where the disjunction is. At best it’s a test of his capabilities based on rumors, and from those rumors we can conclude the Father is testing whether or not he can tame both of the children. He has no background knowledge to support his assessment other than the test himself. Can you draw the implication that Anakin can tame at least one based on the quote "But which one will you choose to save, your master, or your apprentice", yes of course, but it runs contradictory to what we know. That logic is essentially 1. Anakin is placed in an ultimatum. 2. Anakin must be able to fulfill at least one part of the ultimatum because he's placed in the ultimatum. The conclusion (point 2) is essentially restating the premise (point 1) without providing any meaningful evidence to support it, which is a circular reasoning fallacy. We also have to consider why he’s asking him to choose one, there’s no evidence to support the Father making him choose one because he knows he’s powerful enough for at least one.

I'm glad you bring this up, you are saying that it runs contradictory with what we know because (point 2) doesn't provide any new information or evidence. It essentially repeats the premise (point 1) in a different way. It's a circular argument because the reasoning relies on assuming the truth of what it's trying to prove. The fact that Anakin is in an ultimatum is used to argue that he must be able to fulfill at least one part of the ultimatum, without offering any external evidence to support this claim. but you have got this completely wrong, I'm not saying that The Father is just saying to tame one cos he knows for a fact he can, what would be the point in that right? I get what u mean, but ye wrong end of the stick that's not what im saying.

The Father doesn't merely say that the Chosen One could tame one of his children; he specifically mentions "both." you have to be the Chosen One to tame BOTH, thus you do NOT need to be the Chosen One to tame ONE, Chosen One level is not required to beat just 1, that's my point there. I don't think he is going off of rumors, he is clearly going off of what he knows the Chosen One to be, ie born of force embodiment of it etc, the prophecy itself was conceived on Mortis, probably by the Father himself, thus the ultimatum presented to Anakin is not just solely a test of his capabilities but a reflection of the Father's confidence in Anakin's ability, The Father's statement provides a solid foundation for the belief that Anakin is indeed capable of taming both the Son and the Daughter based on his status as the Chosen One. "They like me believe him to be the Chosen One" he believes it already he wants Anakin to believe it, "One that you must believe in order to fulfil your destiny" that's the test "face your guilt and know the truth" so the test in and of itself is to get Anakin to tap into that Chosen One power that he believes is there, and for that he needs to get Anakin to choose one, because by choosing one he has to let go of the other and ofc that is one of the key points in SW its letting go, letting go of attachments, but of course Anakin cant make this "impossible choice" so "Rather than make this impossible choice, Anakin taps into the Force that flows so freely on Mortis and uses his own powerful grip to hold both the Son and the Daughter at bay. In defying the Father, Anakin passes the test." using the nexus is contrary to what the Father wants Anakin to do, which is outlined by the word "Rather"  meaning the Father did not want Anakin to use the Nexus, meaning he wanted him to pull that power from elsewhere, which of course is the Force within him that that talk about in the Episode and where the Entire Force converges, same as on Mortis, what the Father wanted Anakin to do required letting go, something that remains a key flaw in Anakin's character come Revenge of the Sith, fundamentally if you are claiming that the only possible way for Anakin to be that strong is to tap into Mortis, then obviously the Father would have only been urging him to use Mortis right? and obviously he did use the Nexus, so the end result in that would be Anakin doing what the Father wanted him to do, correct? so then why is Letting go still the issue for Anakin in ROTS and even ROTJ, why is it something he is struggling with all his life except that one time on Mortis when he managed to shed all his attachments but never ever again. not to mention it's straight up stated that Anakin does something other than what the Father wanted, defying him, he uses the same power but accesses it from a different place.

And this is just one of many of the terribly skewed misconceptions that plague the community, like people actually don't realize how much weight the above carries ^ because that is irrefutable proof The Chosen One is = The Father, and that opens up many doors, doors like well then how is anyone even a threat to Anakin if he is this strong (which he irrefutably is) doors that I have fortunately already covered and accounted for, recall the exploiting the power stuff, all of this is in here for a reason and its exactly how I have laid it out, this is the only possible way to account for all the lines an quotes we get and all the narrative points that remain consistent in the films etc. 

Gray wrote:I'd say the first quote speaks more to his position as emperor given the context, since the majority of it focused on his ascension throughout the war, and we know his power isn't unprecedented when we see the likes of Anakin match it, and the other Force entities transcending said "unprecedented power." The second quote talks about Order 66-onward, which doesn’t apply to anyone before said event. The third quote only really says he possesses supreme evil which is fine, that’s a moral judgement. The last quote calls Sidious the most dangerous practitioner of the Sith, if it said the dark side, then it would apply if the context wasn’t during ROTJ.

'Supreme Evil' followed by 'Embodiment of the Dark Side' is almost certainly in a Force Context I dunno why we would attribute that to a political role ngl, unless you mean the other quote (which you probably do rereading it) but I don't think that does either, I mean sure it can, but it talks about him gaining unprecedented power through deception and manipulation, which sure is true in a political context too but consider that Emotions ARE Energies in SW and that mass hysteria in the senate the corruption he fosters is a direct byproduct of his power and directly feeds back into his power, deception and manipulation are not just only how he gains political power but also how he gains real tangible power. but yeah back to that supreme evil one, evil is dark side so that still works, especially since its followed by "embodiment of the dark side" lastly... well is The Son not "of the Sith" his answer to that was "Yes...and no" eh technically id still attribute it based on that

Gray wrote:He’s not on their level of power just because he’s more than a Jedi or Sith. If we take for example, Yoda, he’s a Jedi, yet more powerful than Anakin. If the argument is “Anakin’s on the level of the Ones because they both possess different views,” then it leads to a disconnect. The Father’s emphasizing that there is more to the Force and their role in the galaxy than simply aligning with one of these two opposing orders, specifically when it comes to balance. All they’re doing is recognizing the false dichotomy that there’s only the Jedi and Sith views.

Not JUST because of that no, but take into account all the stuff we have covered, I think that is obviously what that means, I doubt its just the father emphasizing that there's more to the force than simply aligning with one or the other, I think he is doing that too don't get me wrong, but I think he denotes that with the "you have a very simple view of the universe" and then he gets onto another point by saying "I am much more" than Sith or Jedi he isn't just saying there is much more to the force, he is telling Anakin that there is much more to YOU (Anakin) and to him, they even say it shortly after "Your Jedi training has served you well Ani, but you are more than a Jedi"

Gray wrote:Because it’s an isolated event never replicated on top of Hidalgo clarifying nexus interactions “are not guaranteed.” Neither Kenobi nor Ahsoka acknowledge their amped Force power, nor is there an observed difference in their performances, we only see it with Anakin.

Oh really? 

KENOBI: Have you noticed the seasons seem to change with the time of day?
ANAKIN: Yeah. And there are no animals.
KENOBI: And you sense it?
ANAKIN: Mm-hmm, since we arrived. The force is very strong.
KENOBI: An intersection unlike anything I've ever felt before.
-Overlords Script

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TESB wrote:You must feel the force around you

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Relaunched Fact File 100 wrote:

But ye that's completely untrue, Kenobi finds himself teleporting around on Mortis, says he feels it as soon as they land, just because no body else got a Chosen One esq feat standing there visually pulling on the entire nexus doesn't mean they weren't amped, or at any time using a portion of the nexus, why wouldn't they be? they are on a nexus, its the same as any other nexus why would it be different ? You telling me when these guys are on Mortis in life threatening situations bout to die they're gonna b like nah fuck using the energies here bro.

Gray wrote:That in itself is the Father pushing Anakin to lose. If he lets go and picks one, he fails the test. It can’t be simplified to “a test of power” because the test Anakin confronts is both strategic and psychological on top of power. The Father could’ve easily made Anakin fight both of them and press Anakin to tame them, but he doesn’t. Or even during the test, he could’ve told Anakin to choose both, but he doesn’t. That’s why it’s not just about power, it’s a test of strategy. And surprisingly, Anakin realizes he can use Mortis to save both of them.

I agree completely its more than just a test of power but your missing the significance of letting go in SW, Anakin isn't expected to just let go of one and actually let them die, its a test to let go of those attachments to become one with the Force, that's what letting go does, it is the ultimate balance, selflessness so by doing that he just unleashes his full power without the fog around him, letting go frees the fog, did another video on that stuff in depth, there's a load more mechanics to the whole fogging I wont get into but just watch tha it'll make sense for context, but letting go free's all mental limitations and that is where Anakin's key issue is, and again he doesn't even overcome that until ROTS, but its a test to get Anakin to free himself to free his inner power, what else would he even be freeing there, telling Anakin to choose both wouldn't do anything again your missing the entire point of letting go, saying to Anakin "Choose both" doesn't do anything cos that wouldn't allow him to let go of anything and that's the point of the whole thing to free his power

Think of it similarly to the fog that surrounds you and everybody else when it comes to Mortis, the lies and misconceptions that have been instilled in the community regarding this Arc, the aim is to free yourself of that, let go so you can "know the truth" follow me Gray and Let Go! 

Gray wrote:There’s no evidence to support the Father being against Anakin tapping into the nexus. If the reason is because he doesn’t tell him to, that’s an argument from ignorance. The show itself displays the Father with a neutral stance concerning the Nexus. In order to defy an action, the action itself has to be made clear. The only action he concretely defies is making the choice which was given to him by the Father, the quote states it, the show confirms it. On the contrary, the set up is for him to use Mortis by creating the false dichotomy.

He fails the test by freeing himself? That means releasing the guilt by choosing who lives, that means sacrificing one for the other, going against exactly what the Father wants. If only the chosen one can tame both of his children, it defeats the purpose of choosing.

I think I've addressed this above pretty thoroughly don't wanna just babble on here.

Gray wrote:That would only apply to Kenobi’s statement, that wouldn’t bind any others due to that specific context, especially since half the quotes predate the concept itself of a planet existing outside spacetime being a conduit for the Force.

I think we are looking at it a little too complicated here, this is one of those times where u can take the simple approach, which is just deducing from this its clear meaning which is just that the planet is the entire force, we know this from many other statements too


Idk why we cant connect Kenobi's comment to these and conclude they are referring to the same thing just because of the context, not sure how that last part matters

Gray wrote:I’ve been looking at this quote the wrong way for a while. Anakin's former relationship with the Force, particularly his identity as a Jedi and his adherence to the light side, has been was buried & no longer the dominant aspect of his identity, yet remains an integral part of who he is.

Bingo! that's correct but it doesn't exactly go against what I am saying, in fact its quite relevant to what I'm saying, lets take a look at the quote again

Anakin was gone; a memory so deeply buried he might have dreamed rather than lived it. The Force as Anakin knew it was interred with him, and inseparable from him. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

Now look at these

He had thought of his diminished abilities as a personal failure—owing to the fact that he had lost his faith in the Jedi order, allowed his two Padawans to die, grown thought-bound—when, in fact, it was the Force as the Jedi had known it that had been defeated. The flame extinguished. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

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He wasn’t sure if the weakness was in him or if, with the death of every Jedi, the war was leaching some of the Force out the universe. -- Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

The Force as the Jedi had known it was defeated for everybody else, its completely gone out of the universe, but interred within and inseparable from Anakin, so this is something unique to Anakin, and clearly not something that can be said for anybody else as you claimed. I think one should consider that the term "interred" in the context of Anakin's relationship with the Force indeed has to refer to the actual Force itself rather than just his memories or past identity as a Jedi or anything like that, it's the old Force as it used to be interred within Anakin, not just Anakin's old persona buried within, that is established on the line before, Anakin is gone a memory buried deep within, but the fact the force as Anakin knew it is buried deep within too, makes it not so much a dream but a reality. 


Anakin's situation is exceptional because, despite the force being sucked out of the Universe he still retains that within himself, This is unlike other Force-sensitive individuals who have lost all access to the Force and find its completely vanished This uniqueness implies that the term "interred" does indeed refer to the actual Force within Anakin, as he alone has a connection to it while it is completely missing for others and its absence is described as having a detrimental effect on other Force-sensitives This absence hinders them and causes personal failures, reinforcing the idea that the Force itself has vanished for them. This further supports the interpretation that Anakin's situation is distinct from others, as he has not suffered the same loss of the Force, it is still there within him, it's just his ability to channel it that is the issue now, post his injuries. I think it's more than reasonable to conclude that the term "interred" in the quotes refers to the actual Force being a part of Anakin, and the actual force being gone not just a memory of it or anything, this makes his situation unique compared to other Force-sensitive beings who have lost their connection to the Force entirely. This interpretation aligns with the narrative that Anakin is the one who can bring the Force back and bring balance, which in turn directly links to the balance of Mortis and Anakin being synonymous with the Balance of the Galaxy, Anakin defines the Force at the time

Gray wrote:Anakin’s the catalyst, not the cause, of balance. His own actions lead to a chain reaction because Anakin brought balance by destroying the Sith, not by his own internal emotions changing. The same way Anakin brought imbalance by destroying the Jedi.

His own internal emotions changing and him freeing himself is what allowed him to release the dark sides hold on him and so on the force and that's how he can beat the Emperor destroying the Sith, Anakin is the cause he's the defining factor, the Mortis stuff above essentially confirms that, anything you'd attribute the other father in that regard u can attribute to Anakin. its not a chain reaction it a synonym and there's an actual reason for that too, its because its the same energies they all converge in Anakin and Mortis he bares all the connections and affects all the connections



The same idea again about Moral Obligation with power, how strong one is just depends on how many threads cross at the point in the force that is you, the more threads you have the more influence you have, the more moral obligation to stay balanced to not push the force out of whack, Anakin has all the threads, his decisions shape the galaxy

Gray wrote:Since we know it’s objectively not a cause and effect relationship grammatically. There’s a relationship between Anakin's inner turmoil and the events unfolding in the galaxy, without necessarily specifying a clear causal link. The conjunction "so" is used here to create a correlative conjunction structure, indicating a relationship between the two clauses. However, the relationship is not one direct causation but parallelism. And as we know, correlation doesn't inherently mean causation. Imagine a study that finds a strong correlation between the number of ice cream sales at a beachside ice cream parlor and the number of drownings at the nearby beach. During the summer months, when ice cream sales are high, the number of drownings also tends to increase. While there is a clear correlation between these two factors, it would be incorrect to conclude that eating ice cream causes drownings or vice versa. There's no reason to establish or imply a causal relationship. The entire disconnect lies in the “The word "so" in this context serves as a conjunction that indicates a cause-and-effect relationship” because it's a correlative conjunction, not a causal conjunction. All it’s missing is the word “shall”, like the Father’s quote possesses, which is a predictive causal relationship.

I mean I would agree that grammatically yes it COULD TECHNICALLY mean what your saying, but it could also mean what I am saying too, and if we are going by Ockham's Razor which you seem to like to do, then given all the evidence for everything we have talked about that has lead us to this, all the threads crossing, embodiment of the force etc, and then the almost identical quote Mortis gets, complimented by the almost identical mechanics mortis gets, wouldn't Ockhams Razor actually favor my interpretation ? since its the simplest outcome given the evidence, eh whatever, either way I agree both interpretations are both ways it could be read for sure, but I think the stance backed by all the mechanics prevails here. In this case we have direct evidence proving that eating ice cream does affect drownings, Ie evidence showing Anakin's internal imbalance is what makes up the galaxies, all these deep functions

Gray wrote:The good thing is it’s not my interpretation: “He needs your ship to leave the planet. You must leave before he can take it.” From this, we can conclude the Son’s power only extends to Mortis because of its “prison” aspect, and that the ship can give him access to the temporal world without Anakin’s help.

I mean sure I think he can leave with the ship, but can he manifest ? can he unleash his power? No, the prison is the nexus, correct, but Mortis is also the Conduit for the Power is it not? Mortis is the Conduit, not the Son, so his power stays on Mortis that is the conduit that's where the power is so that's why its a prison, he needs Anakin cos Anakin is functionally Mortis, so he can just go all out with him, without Anakin he'd just have to manifest in strong DS focal points somewhere down the threads

Relaunched 100 wrote:

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Secrets Revealed in 3D wrote:

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Overlords wrote:a conduit for which the entire force of the universe flows

You'd need to show me a quote saying that the One's themselves are the conduits

Gray wrote:He can have all of these quotes and still lack the capability to change the course of the galaxy alone, which we see happen. And the storytelling emphasizes the collective efforts and interactions of various characters and factions in determining the galaxy's fate, rather than attributing it solely to one individual's actions. Take ROTJ when Anakin brings balance, he does it, but not by himself.

Sure but he doesn't lack that capability lol that's the point and just cos Anakin occasionally needs help doesn't mean he doesn't define the force. Yeah not by himself he needed Luke to help him free himself, that's all he needs then he does do it by himself

Gray wrote:All he’s shown to be thus far is a means to an end. Anakin catalyzes galactic domination plans consistently. Even as Vader, he ends up being a chess piece even though Sidious is leagues beyond him. I guess you can compare Sidious to the Son in that way, they both recognize Anakin is their greatest tool. That’s why he immediately converts him as his ally.

Well this just straight up ignores (again) lines such as "By brining the Chosen One here you've shown me my potential" and all the Anakin is the Key to unlocking the full power of the dark side stuff, there's a reason why he's the greatest tool, what do you think that is ? 

Gray wrote:I feel like this is a very crucial mistake though, not as significant as say Lucas’ Force speed in TPM, but it’s not the first time the Databank has messed up IU information either. They messed up Kanan telling the Inquisitor he let go of fear and put “attachment,” they said Maul sent the hyperdrive into the orbit of a moon instead of a planet, said Palpatine predicted Anakin would become a great Jedi instead of foresaw, etc. It’s probably human error most times but nonetheless relevant as we have to consider the hypothetical “if they saw the correct quote would they enter it?”

I actually am not inclined to think its a mistake whatsoever given all that we have laid out, if that's the counter u wanna go with to that, sure, but I think it aligns perfectly with this whole argument and don't see any issue with it

Gray wrote:The funny thing is they actually get that quote right, they don’t enter a “together they might defeat the emperor.” But taking the Son at his word alone would also be erroneous due to the context, he’s trying to coerce Anakin into taking his side, and that all goes back to the nature of the Databank itself. It’s an OOU description with incorrect information, therefore it’s illogical to accept the statement. All the statement itself is recording is what the Son said. Verbatim, “The Son promises.” You can also think of the Databank as a lens if we want to reconcile the IU difference, since it’s not infallible. If the Databank wants to think the Son promised Anakin they might overthrow the Emperor, and the show itself doesn’t, then we take the show’s version. If the Databank just said “together, they might overthrow the Emperor” then I’d concede that statement, but its description is trying to restate what the Son said, not what he’s capable of.

Exactly if he is trying to coerce Anakin into the Dark Side then why would he say we "might" beat him? but that's why im saying that one is what the Son actually says to Anakin trying to coerce him and the other is an OOU look at the situation together they might win, but might or will, either way its TOGETHER they can do it, so take it either way youve still got Son + Daughter + Dark Mortakin vs Sheev, but they also might lose

Gray wrote:How is Anakin~The Father in S3 when the Ones have supremacy quotes within the same season/episode? For that to work you’d have to ignore the quotes, then assume the feat Anakin does by using the nexus solidifies him on that level, but then you’d also have to bring in the assumption it takes equal effort, equal use of the nexus, etc. Which goes against Occam’s Razor big time. “Anakin tames the Ones using Mortis, The Father can also tame the Ones using Mortis, therefore they must be on a similar power level” just appears to be a false equivalence but Anakin’s anti-feats post Mortis also reinforce that.

Because the literal entire point of the episode is to show Anakin is with the Father, and to convey that as the point of the Chosen One, the quote also says "more powerful with the force than any Jedi has seen before" and nobody ever saw Anakin demonstrate power like that until the Episode, now they have seen it, Obi-Wan doesn't even think Anakin can do it and is visually amazed when he does, the ones do have other quotes aside from that outside of the Episode but again Anakin is literally set up as an exception to that, as are the later force users since the Ones power is what is unprecedented, and its also that power that is actively set up for being exploited, The quotes exist but the One's death's cause a major shift in the power dynamic as set up by the episode, how else is anybody competing with a Father x10 in Anakin as of ROTS do u suppose?

Gray wrote:This scenario seems to be negligible in a lot of scenarios, mainly on the basis I’m pretty sure the movies/shows ignore this concept. So if we’re going off the premise Sheev draws power from the apprentice, and the apprentice dies yet Sheev grows stronger, what’s the relevance? It doesn’t seem significant nor have I witnessed any high ranking sources imply it.

I don't think its ignored in the films, I think its there in the background and explored more in source material, like everything else, tbh idk why I got started on how Sheev draws on Anakin to regenerate, its not really relevant here, the key point here is Anakin is the embodiment of the Force right, forget all the master and apprentice living force leaching I was on about, Anakin embodies the force, so by corrupting Anakin you corrupt the force around you
regardless of what Sheev draws from Anakin to sustain himself, the galaxy is now fully dark and thats a power Sheev has mastery over that's the power he uses, so he directly sinks the galaxy into hell by sinking the chosen one into hell, and of course has that mental hold on Anakin to control that to his will that power is essentially his now

Gray wrote:This seems to fit the physical aspect I was talking about with Anakin, his actions strengthen the dark side, Sidious gains from it. The apprentice entices the dark side to emerge/grow, and the master gains from that. “And what of the Sith?” Obi-Wan said. “Dooku’s death should have at least begun the weakening of the darkness, but instead it feels stronger than ever. I fear Master Yoda’s intuition is correct: that Dooku was merely the apprentice to the Sith Lord, not the Master.” Strong, this Sith Lord is, Yoda thought as their lightsabers whirled and clashed and whirled again. It should not have been a surprise. With the strength of the dark side growing, the Sith must, logically, have grown stronger.

Sure, that's the gist of it right Anakin is the physical side of it, so the Living Force, and Sidious is the Cosmic Force side of it, remember dark side is not inherently Living Force based, its corruption of that but resides in the Cosmic until it can gain a vessel or a host, like a drug or parasite, that vessel is a Living Force host, that being Anakin and that vessel being the embodiment of the Force

Balance is the circle of life present in monolith systems. But beware, the greed of the dark side acts like a cancer on the living force, and the Sith are its chief agents.
-Jedi Path

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The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies.
-Of Man and Myth | George Lucas

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"The Darkside is always there, it is experienced daily by people. It’s like a huge cancer, alive, festering - both a reminder of the moral state and, at the same time symptom and symbol of a very sick society"
~ George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars”, Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001

that corrupted vessel doesn't pass on to the force when it dies, its added to the dark side which Palpatine wields, which is why Sheev grows with Dooku's death

Gray wrote:The overarching theme here is exploiting Force-sensitives for power and manipulation, the methods in which the exploitation occurs is different, but that wouldn’t change the comparison. It all lies in the

Yes but Anakin is no normal force sensitive and there's mechanics behind it all, as I've laid out, we'd literally be ignoring all of that

Gray wrote:the most accurate explanation of this quote is that both the great mother and sidious exploit force connections to further their goals. The Great Mother actually is trying to attain the Cosmic aspect combined with the living through sacrifice, Sidious is trying to attain galactic domination through Anakin’s power as his warrior.

They are both noted to be trying to exploit a "LIVING FORCE" connection, so they are both instances of Cosmic merging with Living, that's how all this symbiosis works

Gray wrote:The only other entities that I’ve seen that come close to that realm is the Priestesses, their portrayal/hype up as manifestations of the Cosmic Force itself is more than enough to speak to their capabilities, but even if we look at it from a conceptual standpoint, none of the mortals should come close to the entities because of their nature, that would just take away from their nature, significance, uniqueness etc. Especially since they have layers of the Force that they and only they can access, on top of the multiple descriptors of being like gods/divine, if you’re going to put a mortal against a god, the god would absolutely smite the mortal. In a logarithmic sense, the layers of the Force should increase in complexity, and with that power, which is a very consistent theme.
That’s why Luke’s projection is unprecedented in movies thus far due to it tapping into multiple aspects of the Force. If there was a quote of Anakin acting as god that would be neat, but this all goes back to the difference between the entities and mortals being that Superman aspect that Lucas talks about. Most of the meta-Force concepts rely on too much unnecessary assumptions, which is why I think you’ll find most of my refutations closely align with Occam’s Razor even though it’s an interpretation. Here’s a TL;DR:

They arent manifestations of the Cosmic Force, they are manifestations of the Link between the Living and Cosmic Force, which of course are those emotions they represent that Sidious preys on with Anakin, clouds him with different emotions, lies confusion, these all make up the fog around Anakin, I dont think it takes away from their nature only adds to the nature of actual force users, every force user is the force made physical, when god is a shared power a lot becomes possible. again those mortals are exploiting the power of the gods, can take the place of those gods etc, these arent normal 'mortals' we are talking about here, they don't rely on unnecessary assumptions they account for necessary connections when we have a line that doesn't mean anything by itself and it relies on a deep understanding of the mechanisms ingrained in the mythology that makes up Star Wars and the functions the material sets up, as opposed to ignoring lines and functions that don't have an immediate meaning by themselves, and its all centered around a warped view of the nature of SW, so for example saying "no way can a mortal be > a god" or "why isnt X guy not blowing up Y thing if he's this strong" take SW independently of all those ideas, let go, and start again 

Gray wrote:Premise 1: The Father is consistently described in the narrative as unspeakably powerful, god-Like, and much more powerful than any mortal.
Premise 2: The Father's power is characterized as being beyond the reach of even the most powerful Force users in the galaxy, and he is recognized as one of the most powerful bearers of the Force by Lucas himself, as well as Chee, indicating a solemn SG placement.
Premise 3: Sidious, while formidable, lacks the same level of hype, evidence, credibility, and transcendent power attributed to the Father. Sidious' power, while vast, is rooted in multi-sourced jumbled interpretations that contain multiple fallacies and quasi-unkown meta-Force concepts not recognized in prevailing source material.
Conclusion: Therefore, based on the consistent descriptions of the Father's unparalleled power and his transcendent nature, it can be reasonably concluded that the Father is more powerful than Sidious

While the Father is repeatedly stated as the strongest force user ever along with his children, the core narrative in episode is to establish  that Anakin is also on that level of power as the Chosen One, that is the entire point of the Episode, Only the Chosen One is that strong and indeed Anakin proves to be the Chosen One, and it just so happens that its the Chosen One's power that Sidious exploits and takes for himself, so much like they say in the Episodes themselves "The Chosen One is the Key" Anakin acts as an anchor for Sidious to rise above any possible limitations, furthermore the power you are claiming the One's have that is above anybody else, is explicitly noted in the episode to be being exploited by Mortals, without the One's 'guarding' that power and the power growing rapidly for the next couple years leading up to ROTS until shrouding the entire Galaxy with Order 66 , I really would like to know how one can justify Sidious being less powerful than The Son, who's power was only the Dark Side as of S3, power is a shared thing, its not personal The Son's power isn't something separate from the Dark Side, the only argument for the One's that there seems to be is spamming those supremacy quotes and saying look they are gods, and that's all you really can do really when the episode itself sets a precedent for that very power being exploited, the entire episode is about how these are literal gods, yet they are being fucked over and need saving and that's how fucked things have become.

If you look at what is actually happening here, the Chosen One is the key, and Sidious beats everybody to it and achieves the ultimate goal, you have both the trials in Mortis and ROTS that mirror eachother, Anakin in S3 vs the One's and he doesnt free himself, then u get him more than double up to ROTS to where Dooku stands in for BOTH the One's in a scenario where Anakin does free himself on IH 

Overlords wrote:You must now release the guilt and free yourself by choosing 

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Revenge of the Sith wrote:the dragon-haunted man with a furnace for a heart and a mind as cold
as the surface of that dead star—had really only been an image
reflected in Dooku’s open staring eyes.
And by the time what’s left of the conning spire crashes into the
kilometers-thick crust of city that is the surface of Coruscant, those
dead eyes will have burned away, and the dragon will burn with
them.
And you, for the first time in your life, will truly be free.
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
For now

Anakin does this for Sheev not for the Father, and he does it the dark side way too, Sidious is the culmination of all that goes wrong, and Anakin is the key to it


it comes down to like 4 quotes the Ones get which don't account for any power shift after their deaths, and ignoring many of the episode lines/ ingrained concepts and narratives vs tons of mechanics for how this all works that account for all the lines and concepts

I enjoyed this one anyways, a really fun debate for a topic that needs covering imo, niceone Gray good Job bro 

now lets get some judges