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Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Empty SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling)

May 23rd 2023, 11:21 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Picsar10

No character limit, one month time limit between posts.

Revan as of SoR.

Yoda as of RotS.

Chum is opening.
chum
chum

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Empty Re: SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling)

July 1st 2023, 2:33 am

A. Jedi Exiles vs. Yoda



Before founding his Sith order, A’Sharad Hett learned the Sith arts under the guidance of Xoxaan. After 20 years of learning, Hett would emerge from Korriban to wreak vengeance against Darth Vader and Darth Sidious; however, Hett would realize that Luke Skywalker would steal his revenge. Determined to lose himself, Hett would venture into the unknown regions, where he would be captured by the Yuuzhan Vong, who would torture and experiment on him. This experience is noted to have been the catalyst for fully transitioning A’Sharad Hett into Darth Krayt.

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When the chance came, Darth Krayt would escape the Vong scout ship and return to Korriban, where he would begin the One Sith.

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Even when he begins the One Sith he is still receiving guidance from Xoxaan and if we look at stats, we can see that this version of Darth Krayt has stats close to episode III Yoda.

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The experiments conducted by the Vong would leave Krayt in long periods of stasis.

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The coral seeds that were implanted inside Krayt are slowly taking over his body and destroying him. Krayt’s entire goal in Legacy was to find some way to heal his body and restore his powers to fulfill his vision.

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“In a reckless bid to right one of his many past wrongs, Cade Skywalker has become a prisoner of the Sith. It's a banner day for Emperor Darth Krayt, who hopes that Skywalker's abilities will complete Krayt's longtime quest to restore his own power.”
- starwars.com

This diminished version of Darth Krayt has better stats than Yoda or Sidious in minis.

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This same Krayt faced off against Karness Muur, who in their fight, is stated to display powers that outshone Krayt’s.

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- Insider 113: Profile: Darth Krayt

The way Darth Krayt came back from "death" was by hiding his consciousness deep inside his body and using an ability that he learned from Karness Muur, dark healing, to restore himself to full health.

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If Muur were to overwhelm or escape Celeste Morne, who has been resisting his efforts to control her for centuries, and find a vessel he could dominate, he would "truly live again". In the same quote, this ‘truly live again’ Karness Muur is "perhaps" the most powerful Sith we have seen so far in Star Wars Legacy. And for the record, we have seen Founding Krayt, who should be at the pinnacle of his powers due to not experiencing the same extent of body deterioration as his Legacy (pre-rebirth) counterpart.

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This is also supported by Karness Muur, who believes that if he restored Darth Krayt and escaped Morne’s vessel, he could control him.

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Karness Muur being in this caliber of power is also consistent with how he is portrayed in earlier parts of Vector. For example, in the KOTOR comic series, it is shown that Karness Muur is classified as a threat to all eras, being called "the end of everything" and the characters in the vision (Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, and Cade Skywalker) reciprocate that it is happening "now".

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In DT, Vader believes that with the help of the talisman, he could achieve his objective: killing Darth Sidious.

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In a George Lucas-vetted source, Darth Sidious is said to be unbeatable by Yoda, which is also repeated by Nick Gillard, who has worked closely with Lucas and is the one who choreographed the PT.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark. In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it. He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.
- ROTS Novelization

“GILLARD: Yes, he was. Palpatine… as much as I love Sam and Sam to me is second only to Yoda… Palpatine would have creamed him every time. He has to.”

The other Jedi Exiles should also be at this level of power. Karness Muur says to Krayt that he has defeated a Sith more powerful than him. This is also pretty consistent with the Jedi Exiles being portrayed as rivals, always trying to one-up each other, as seen with Karness Muur always bickering and fighting with Dreypa and Sorzus Syn trying to make a more powerful talisman than Muur’s.

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Around the time of ANH, Sidious would travel to Korriban so he could learn the ability to preserve his powers after death from the Jedi Exiles; however, he was assaulted by the spirits and left nearly dead.

“Shortly after the Battle of Yavin, Droga rescued his cowed master after Palpatine had enraged the mummified Sith by demanding dark side knowledge. Palpatine recovered from the assault in a bacta tank on Imperial Center while Droga retrieved one of the Emperor’s clones.”
- Star Wars Gamer #5

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B. Revan





Per WOTC, Revan is classified as strong in the force, which is only attributed to characters like Anakin Skywalker and Yoda. This is pretty consistent with other sources, such as one comparing him to Anakin Skywalker or Kreia in KOTOR II calling him the heart of the force.

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"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."
- Knights of the Old Republic II

Revan learned everything he could from the Jedi Order, which has an extensive collection of Jedi knowledge, and said Jedi Order has been put up in contention with the likes of the PT Jedi Order as the prime of the Jedi.

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"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters: that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."
- Knights of the Old Republic II

“Revan had many Masters, Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques. It is said that he returned to his first Master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the Order."
- Knights of the Old Republic II

"Atris said that the Enclave on Dantooine was one of the great storehouses of Jedi knowledge. Many Jedi came here to study the ancient holocrons and relics."
Knights of the Old Republic II

Revan would attain a large amount of Sith knowledge from pillaging Malachor V.

Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, Darth Revan has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause.

Revan travels to Malachor V and discovers the Trayus Academy, delving deeply into the Sith secrets contained within.
- Chronicles of the Old Republic

Revan later turns into a Sith after his visit to the unknown regions, and the Jedi Civil War begins. At this time, Revan is classed as the most dangerous threat the republic has faced, with the KOTOR remake trailer saying that the republic faces the greatest Sith they’ve seen in generations.

The Republic hero known as “Revan” had a turbulent past. As a Jedi general in the Mandalorian Wars, he led Republic forces to victory; as Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy.
- Star Wars the Old Republic



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Darth Revan has similar stats to Grandmaster Yoda as of Episode III, with both having a class of 20 and +25 (WOTC) and in minis, Revan has a better overall.

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After Revan's presumed death, Darth Malak is said to have quickly assumed his role and embraced the Dark Side as fully as he ever did.  His hatred and vengeance for his master's death drive him further down the dark path.

“When Revan fell we had hoped the Sith threat was ended. But Malak quickly assumed Revan's role, and has embraced the dark side power as fully as his old master ever did. Now Malak leads the Sith armada against the Republic. Hate and vengeance for his master's death draw Malak ever further down the path of the dark side, fueling his powers until they surpass those of his old master.”
- Knights of the Old Republic

Darth Malak would keep growing to the point where if he wasn't stopped soon, he would be unbeatable.

"You must go now, Revan. The Star Forge feeds the power of your old apprentice. If you do not stop him soon he will become too powerful for even you to stop."`
- Knights of the Old Republic

Revan is stated to be more powerful as a Jedi than he was as a Sith, and he would go on to defeat Darth Malak.

“You are stronger than I thought; stronger than you ever were during your reign
as the Dark Lord. I did not think that was possible”.
- Knights of the Old Republic

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By this point in time, Darth Malak has pushed the Star Forge to 300%, and if we look back at the exiles, Ajunta Pall calls the Star Map’s power blinding, which the exiles were powered by. The Star Maps in scale is only a component of the larger Star Forge.

"Everyday the Star Forge adds more ships to our fleet, it is operating at nearly 300% of our projections. The fleet is assembling around the Star Forge, and awaits your instructions." "Patience, Commander. My new apprentice is nearly ready. Once Bastila joins her Battle Meditation to our enormous fleet, we shall be invincible. Then we shall begin our final conquest of the Core Worlds, and the Republic will be crushed forever."
- Knights of the Old Republic

"We were not the first to fall to the dark side, but we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere." "What do you mean? Came from where?" "Our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from." "Why? What is at this place?" "So much power. It is blinding. I remember so little." "Tell me the secret." "I cannot, human. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. You who bristle with the Force, you must find this place. Or, have you? Or did you? Or, will you? Oh, so many images I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You will find the old place, the dark place. And you will regret it."
- Knights of the Old Republic

During the Revan novel, Revan's memories of being a Sith would return to him after he puts on his mask once again. When the Hero of Tython undergoes a similar process, he states that his memories of being a servant of the dark give him power.

“He unwrapped the cloth to reveal the masked helmet he had worn during his campaigns against the Mandalorians and the Republic. In an instant, all his lost memories came flooding back to him.
A million images—years upon years of forgotten people, places, and events—flooded his consciousness simultaneously. In his weakened state it was too much to take. As his brain went into sensory overload, his body went limp.”
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
"You were under his control, his darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you, you pushed the memories of that training down deep. I can bring those memories back. You're strong enough to handle them. Let the light cure them, make you whole."
- Star Wars: The Old Republic
When the idea of Revan vs. Emperor Vitiate is brought up in the novel, it is said that Revan alone would probably fail to defeat Vitiate; however, if he had assistance from the Jedi Exile and Lord Scourge, Revan thinks they stand a real chance.

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even
fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful
now, but was he a match for the Emperor?
Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and
even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
From the Revan novel to SWTOR, Vitiate is noted to have grown unfathomably.

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During Act III, Scourge tells the Hero of Tython that he alone can defeat Vitiate. Note that Scourge should have grown drastically in power over the past 300 years and is fully aware that Vitiate has been weakened recently. But still, Scourge does not think he can provide any beneficial assistance in combat.

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When the Hero of Tython faces the emperor, Vitiate is easily defeated, with the Hero being noted to be "too powerful" or Vitiate being said to be "no match" for him.

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During the 300 years of his imprisonment, Revan would engage Vitiate in a mental battle, and through piercing Vititate's mind, he would learn centuries worth of knowledge.

“The darkness will consume all it touches. Stars will burn black, ashes raining on lifeless worlds. Everything ends. The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years. His strength will fail, and he will become the darkness.”
-Star Wars the Old Republic

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Once the hero regains his memories, he heads to Yavin IV, where he fights Revan on two occasions, once at the Temple of Sacrifice and once at the Forgotten Terrace. At the Temple of Sacrifice, Light Side Revan tells the hero that he needs his allies to defeat Revan, and during the fight, Revan resurrects his allies whenever they fall.

“Boon of the Spirit. Target has been recently resurrected by an outside force.”

“I am with you. Be strong . . . I am doing all that I can. I only hope this will be enough . . . Brace yourself . . . Do not let him win.”

"Revan['s Spirit] wants me to succeed, but claims I can't do it on my own.”
- Shadow of Revan

If the Hero tries to face Revan on his own, this is what happens:



Another factor in this fight is the Machine Core, which injures Revan on multiple occasions.

“Through masterful control of the Force, Revan has created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channeling its power into an immense attack. Upon successful completion, [Revan] deals massive damage to enemies within 1km. Dealing sufficient damage will break this channel.”
“[Revan has] suffered a powerful backlash while channeling an immense amount of Force energy.”

“The Machine Core has been rendered critically unstable. It is now a violent maelstrom of twisted Force essence, indiscriminately stripping the life force from everything in the vicinity.”
- Shadow of Revan

In the end, all of these factors barely drove Revan back.

“You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me”
- Shadow of Revan

C. Drain



At the beginning of the Clone Wars, Count Dooku attempted to use the ancient artifact known as the Dark Reaper. The Dark Reaper is capable of draining the life force out of anything within its vicinity, and the Jedi Council says that if the Dark Reaper were to be used by the separatists, the Republic would fall.

"If Dooku restores the Dark Reaper, it will mean the end of the Republic."

"Stop him, we must."

"If Dooku gets the Dark Reaper operational, we won't stand a chance of winning this war."

"The fate of the Republic rests on this battle."
- The Clone Wars Video Game

In short, this would indicate that Yoda does not know how to resist force drain, establishing my win condition for this debate. Revan not only knew how to use force drain but could also use a more advanced version that was enhanced by the event on Malachor.


"There are techniques within the force, against which there is no defense."
- Knights of the Old Republic II

“During the Jedi Civil War, many Jedi fell at the hands of Sith assassins, using techniques in the Force the Jedi could not defend against.”
- Knights of the Old Republic II

“Sadow taught Nadd dark twistings of the Force, offering him Sith weapons and abilities no other Jedi Knight could withstand.”
- Chronicles of the Old Republic


“He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side.”
- Chronicles of the Old Republic

“Question: Was the force drain used by Nihilus the same as the normal drain? I thought it tied into wounds and Malachor. Answer: No, it's a specific "Sith" Technique enhanced by the event at Malachor, the Mass Shadow Generator, etc. I say "Sith" in quotes b/c they don't respect the technique, and very few know of it (they consider it an empty road to the Dark Side).”
- Chris Avellone

This form of force drain would come at the cost of the user losing their personality and consciousness, turning them into a vacant husk.

Question: "Was Kreia's force drain considerably weaker than Nihilus'? Or, while out classed, could she function in the same general league if she chose to?"
Answer: "My opinion is that Kreia’s Force Drain is weaker by necessity – if you go overboard, you turn into a near-vacant husk like Nihilus, and that’s a dead-end to the Sith teachings... I can’t see a situation where Kreia would be willing to give up her own personality and psychological “rock” to do so – plus, being Darth “Traya,” that personality is core to her specialty as a Darth (the ability to sense and manipulate and cultivate psychological strengths and vulnerabilities – even in herself)."
- Chris Avellone

Revan directly references this when using drain in Shadow of Revan.

Dark Growth
Stuns the target, deals <<1>> damage every second, and converts 25% of damage done to health.
Life and force power are being drained. With each charge Revan grows in power.


"There's no cost too great.”
- Shadow of Revan

----
In short, Revan can atomize Yoda just by farting or Revan could drain-rape him.

Your turn.
Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Empty Yoda Post #1 Part 1

July 24th 2023, 3:47 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
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Mega Scaling SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 3705225348


Stats


D6, D20, Saga, Minis, and Galactic Files


chum wrote:Per WOTC, Revan is classified as strong in the force, which is only attributed to characters like Anakin Skywalker and Yoda. This is pretty consistent with other sources, such as one comparing him to Anakin Skywalker or Kreia in KOTOR II calling him the heart of the force.

And Darth Vader post-injuries. And Padme Amidala. So there is a range to this. But yes, Revan does have incredible potential.

chum wrote:Even when he begins the One Sith he is still receiving guidance from Xoxaan and if we look at stats, we can see that this version of Darth Krayt has stats close to episode III Yoda.

chum wrote:This diminished version of Darth Krayt has better stats than Yoda or Sidious in minis.

chum wrote:Darth Revan has similar stats to Grandmaster Yoda as of Episode III, with both having a class of 20 and +25 (WOTC) and in minis, Revan has a better overall.

Your use of stats is not consistent with your arguments.

You establish baseline connections to Yoda through stats, with Krayt and with Revan himself.

Both tell us that:

Yoda ~ Vong Krayt ~ Darth Revan

(shared CL in Saga, nearly identical HP, Defense, Attack, and Damage stats across the board in Minis)

At the same time, you’re going for something like:

Yoda ~ Vong Krayt < XoXaan/Karness Muur ~ Ajunta Pall <<<<< Darth Revan < Darth Malak < …

(this has other issues I’ll get to)

This scaling is incompatible with the Saga and Miniatures statistics that you seem to be taking as fact in other parts of your argument. Both can’t be the case, so which is it?

If you brush off the stats link, there goes your Yoda ~ Vong Krayt tie.

If you brush off the mega scaling, there goes your Vong Krayt <<<<<< Darth Revan tie.

As it stands, your own arguments are bashing against each other.

You also seem less than eager to claim links like Roan Fel >/~ Darth Malak, or Darth Bane ~ Darth Revan, or Exar Kun ~ Darth Revan, all of which are at least as supported by the stats (both Minis and Saga support those links) as Yoda ~ Krayt ~ Revan.

And what of Darth Revan’s other, not-quite-Yoda-level stats?

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-The Force Unleashed Preview #3 (2007)

Personally I wouldn’t swear by the system that places Darth Revan several Challenge Levels below OT Vader, but if you insist… :&gt:

I’d also like to point out that stats just generally do not get along with massive scaling chains the way you seem to think they do.

The most recent stats that have Darth Revan as a peer of Yoda’s are from 2008, before the release of SWTOR and the creation of Vitiate who scales above him.

Your idea seems to be that, because DR and Yoda have similar stats, if the stats included someone who scales well above DR in the system (Vitiate, for example), Vitiate would be rated well above either, with DR and Yoda’s parity remaining a fact in the system; either downscaling Yoda and Revan together to make room, or having Vitiate transcend the CL 20 class.

Historically though, that’s not how this kind of thing has gone.

I’ll ask you to backtrack a bit to when the D6 system was the Star Wars roleplay system. The only exploration the game gave to Old Republic characters was through the Tales of the Jedi Companion, which only covered the first three series of TotJ… as such, the most powerful Sith it covered was Freedon Nadd.

Freedon Nadd was very very powerful in that system. Indeed, just about the only character who was stronger than him was Palpatine, and even then, not by much.

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-Tales of the Jedi Companion (1996)

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-Movie Trilogy Sourcebook (1993)

Now, let’s fast forward to the switch to D20. Based on your theory, it would stand to reason that with the introduction of Nadd’s veritable superiors–Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos–to the RP system, they would benefit from Nadd’s favorable placement compared to Palpatine, and be well above either of them.

Well… not quite.

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-The Dark Side Sourcebook (2001)

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-The Dark Side Sourcebook (2001)

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-The Dark Side Sourcebook (2001)

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-Villains of Revenge of the Sith (2005)

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-Heroes of Revenge of the Sith (2005)

Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos were granted their rightful superiority to Freedon Nadd. But, what’s this? Palpatine’s still at the top of the system, and his Jedi counterpart, Yoda, with him. It seems that when it came to choosing between…

  • The (relative) integrity of the intra-era scaling
  • The consistency with inter-era statistics of previous systems
  • The placement of the film-era titans at the pinnacle of the system


…it was the consistency with the inter-era statistics of systems that went, rather than either of the other two parameters.

I wonder why this same process would not happen with Darth Revan, with DR taking the place of Freedon Nadd and the likes of Vitiate and SoR Revan taking the places of Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos.

Fortunately, we don’t have to wonder too much, as we do have a more recent system, from after the introduction of SWTOR, with stats for both Yoda and Darth Revan that we can test both our hypotheses against.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 73989-11
-Galactic Files Series 1 (2012)

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 73989-12
-Galactic Files Series 1 (2012)

(Yoda is at max scores in every category except for Diplomacy and Strength. Revan is at a disadvantage of 1 in Force Power, a disadvantage of 2 in Intelligence, a disadvantage of 4 in diplomacy SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 4233314142, an advantage of 1 in strength SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 1471176647, a disadvantage of 3 in speed, and a disadvantage of 2 in fighting ability.)

I think my hypothesis wins.

Another thing that I find interesting with these statistics is how similar Darth Malgus’s stats are to those of Darth Revan.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 73989-13
-Galactic Files Series 1 (2012)

(Same exact scores except Darth Malgus is at an advantage of 1 in Force Power and a disadvantage of 1 in Intelligence.)

The set of cards with Malgus (Galactic Files) was released after the False Emperor flashpoint and refers to him as having been a member of the Dark Council (which was first established in the Ilum storyline that contains the False Emperor flashpoint).

As such, this is the Darth Malgus that entire groups of post-Act III players, potentially including at least one Hero of Tython, need “[their] wits, [their] skills, and all [their] resources to emerge victorious”.

swtor.com/holonet/flashpoints wrote:Band together with your most trusted allies to undertake some of the most dangerous missions in the galaxy! Flashpoints are action-packed, story-driven adventures that test a group of players to their limits, putting them up against difficult foes in volatile situations. You and your group need your wits, your skills, and all your resources to emerge victorious. Every Flashpoint begins with an exciting story and contains difficult decisions – choose carefully, because your group’s choices have a meaningful impact on the challenges you’ll face, the enemies you’ll fight, and the outcome of the story! All the danger is certainly worthwhile; the rewards from Flashpoints are some of the most powerful you’ll find.

At the very, very worst, FE Malgus is on par with post-Act III Hero of Tython. Yet, he’s treated as similar in skill to Darth Revan, who you argued to be far, far, far below the level of Act III Hero of Tython. Yet another instance of the stats disagreeing with your conclusions!

SWTOR Itself


While we’re on the topic, did you know that SWTOR itself has some stats? These should be much more reliable statements on characters’ combative prowess than those from dated, peripheral sources.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2022-131

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2022-132

I would like it if you explained to me why either:

  • We should ignore these gameplay stats straight from the source and relating more directly to the characters in question as reliable measurements while using the gameplay stats from dated, peripheral sources as the foundation of our scalings
  • The SWTOR devs thinking Yoda would die to a rancor is a more likely situation than the Minis/Saga game designers thinking that Darth Revan isn’t oneshot fodder to SoR Revan


Exiles


Malak vs the Exiles: An Interesting Interpretation


chum wrote:By this point in time, Darth Malak has pushed the Star Forge to 300%, and if we look back at the exiles, Ajunta Pall calls the Star Map’s power blinding, which the exiles were powered by. The Star Maps in scale is only a component of the larger Star Forge.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 1306544554

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-035

Where does it say that Malak “pushed the Star Forge to 300%”?

All that is established is that the Star Forge tripled the expectations of the Sith forces’ analysts. Nothing suggests that this was a conscious effort of Malak, let alone subverting or overpowering the Star Forge to accomplish it. It is established repeatedly that the imperials don’t truly understand the power of the station.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-036

Even Malak himself does not yet fully comprehend the Star Forge’s capabilities.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-037

This is only consistent with the narrative of KotOR. If the Star Forge and the Star Maps were of a trivial nature compared to Revan and Malak, which you seem to be suggesting, then their existence would not have been the tool that allowed them to conquer the galaxy in the first place.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-039
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-040
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-038
-Knights of the Old Republic (2003)

Knights of the Old Republic (2003) wrote:The Republic now faces Sith forces of startling strength. The resources of the enemy seem limitless.

Knights of the Old Republic (2003) wrote:No one knows how Revan and Malak assembled a force powerful enough to challenge the Republic.

Knights of the Old Republic (2003) wrote:Sith forces under Malak seem to have endless resources. How he raised such a fleet remains a mystery.

Revan and Malak are overall stronger than Ajunta Pall, sure. But to claim that he’s weaker by many degrees of magnitude due to “Star Map scaling”, as though Revan and Malak weren’t themselves awed at the ancient devices’ power, strikes me as disingenuous.

Muur vs the Exiles: An Appeal to Aesthetic in an Argument That Does Not Respect Aesthetic


chum wrote:The other Jedi Exiles should also be at this level of power. Karness Muur says to Krayt that he has defeated a Sith more powerful than him. This is also pretty consistent with the Jedi Exiles being portrayed as rivals, always trying to one-up each other, as seen with Karness Muur always bickering and fighting with Dreypa and Sorzus Syn trying to make a more powerful talisman than Muur’s.

You don’t have anything that directly suggests that peak living Muur is with Ajunta Pall.

Sorzus Syn’s role is in creating amulets and similar arcane technologies. She’s better at her specialty than Muur was in the area outside his realm of expertise. I don’t think that establishes any kind of combative parity.

Muur lived for a long while after the initial Exile era, more than enough time to have grown beyond the others even if we assume initial parity, which you haven’t proven. The better-than-Krayt-Sith that he has beaten (if we choose to take him at his word!) could be otherwise unknown Sith far stronger than the Exiles.

That leaves you with only an extremely loose (and not justified) “the writers would likely have all the Exiles on a similar level”. When it doesn’t fit into your arguments though, you don’t seem to be taking what the writers would likely have into account.

Do we really think that Vector’s writers would have a revived Karness Muur or a Muur-controlled Krayt get dumpstered by Darth Malak?

Do we really think that SWTOR’s writers have everybody and their mother scaling above the titans of the KotOR era?

Do we really think there’s a world where any writer would portray Yoda being anything less than a titan in his own right in SWTOR?

It just ends up being an unintuitive mess that disrespects every single character involved.

If this chain relies on accepting things due to aesthetic appeal alone, then again, your methods prove far from internally consistent. If you’re going to dismiss aesthetics out of hand in all areas where they don’t favor you, I don’t feel inclined to give this one to you, especially when Muur being well above the other Exiles is significantly less offensive than a lot of the takes you’re pushing.

The Mechanics of the Talisman


Karness Muur, being preserved through the talisman, has no power on his own. He needs a host to be able to manifest any Force abilities.

Muur is unable to do anything at all with a non-Force sensitive host, even though said host (the ambitious Mandalorian researcher Pulsipher) is actively trying to embrace the talisman’s latent abilities, instead abandoning Pulsipher for a less willing but slightly Force-sensitive host in Zayne Carrick.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco06210
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco06310
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco06410
-Knights of the Old Republic #27: Vector Part 3 (2008, John Jackson Miller, Scott Hepburn)

It ties into the way the talisman creates Rakghouls. The Rakghouls retain the skills of the host, but their will is supplanted by that of Muur’s.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco07510
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco07610
-Knights of the Old Republic #28: Vector Part 4 (2008, John Jackson Miller, Scott Hepburn)

The segment on the creation of the talisman directly notes that what it preserves of him is only his mind and will, not his body. He needs to find powerful Force users to access any Force power… there is none inherent in the talisman, so that leaves the Force user themself as the source that Muur can draw from, if the host allows it.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco23710
-Legacy #30: Vector Part 11 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

When one embraces Muur instead of resisting him, their power isn’t a sum of theirs and a portion of his… elsewise Muur could have manifested some of his power from the fully willing Pulsipher. Rather, it’s a multiplier, taking the inherent Force energies of the host and focusing it through Muur’s arcane knowledge and dark willpower.

This is consistent with the way that other Sith taking on hosts is presented in other media – the raw power of the disciple giving a tangible medium for the parasitic spirit to use its practiced abilities.

Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice (1994, Kevin J. Anderson) wrote:"Exar Kun, help me," Kyp said, closing his eyes.

He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant.

Behind him Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt. Kyp felt larger, a part of the jungle moon, then a part of the entire planetary system, until he burrowed into the heart of the gas giant itself.

Pale orange clouds whipped past him. He sensed pressure increasing as he plummeted down, down to the incredibly dense layers near the core. He sought the tiny speck of machinery, a small, indestructible ship that had been cast away.

When he reached the bottommost levels of the atmosphere, Kyp finally found the Sun Crusher. It stood out like a beacon, a bull's-eye in the funneling field lines of the Force.

Size matters not, Master Skywalker had repeated. Kyp engulfed the Sun Crusher with his mind, surrounding it, touching it with his limitless, invisible hands. He thought about heaving it back up, dragging the Sun Crusher out of the depths of Yavin. But he discarded that thought.

Instead, with the assistance of Exar Kun, he used his innate skill to power up the controls again, to move control levers, push buttons to alter the course stored in the Sun Crusher's memory, bringing it out of its entombment.

Kyp continued to watch the weapon's progress, focusing on the sphere of the enormous planet as it crested the misty treetops. The Sun Crusher appeared as a silvery dot, seeming no larger than an atom as it emerged from the highest cloud layers and streaked across space toward the emerald-green moon where Kyp waited.

He stared upward and waited, opening his arms to receive the indestructible weapon.

The Sun Crusher approached like a long, sharp thorn of crystalline alloy, cruising upright on its long axis. The toroidal resonance-torpedo launcher hung at the bottom of the long hook. It looked beautiful.

The Sun Crusher descended through the jungle moon's atmosphere, straight down--like a spike to impale the Great Temple. Kyp controlled it, slowed its descent, until the superweapon hovered to a stop, suspended in front of him.

As the sky brightened with planetrise, the alloy hull of the Sun Crusher seemed as pristine as a firefacet gem, scoured of all oxidation and debris by the intense temperatures and pressures at the core of Yavin. The Sun Crusher looked clean, and deadly, and ready for him.

"Thank you, Exar Kun," Kyp whispered.

Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice (1994, Kevin J. Anderson) wrote:"Don't make me fight you," Luke said in a low voice.

Kyp made a dismissive gesture with one hand, and a sudden wave of dark ripples splashed across the air like the shock front from a concussion grenade.

Luke stumbled backward. The lightsaber turned cold in his hand. Frost crystals grew in feathery patterns around the handle. At the core of the brilliant green blade a shadow appeared, a black disease rotting away the purity of the beam. The humming blade sputtered, sounding like a sickly cough. The black taint rapidly grew stronger, swallowing up the green beam.

With a fizzle of sparks Luke's lightsaber died.

Trying to control his growing fear, Luke felt a sudden brush of cold behind him. He turned to see a black, hooded silhouette--the image that had impersonated Anakin Skywalker in Luke's nightmare... the dark man who had lured Gantoris into a devastating loss of control.

Kyp's voice came as if from a great distance. "At last, Master Skywalker, you can meet my mentor--Exar Kun."

Luke dropped his useless lightsaber and crouched. His every muscle suddenly coiled and tensed. He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic.

With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides.

Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body.

He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him--but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.

Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail.

The black serpentlike tentacles of evil force struck at him again and again, filling his body with a pain like lava coursing through his veins. As he screamed, his voice was swallowed by a hurricane from the dark side.

Luke cried out one last time and crumpled backward to the blessedly cool flagstones of the Great Massassi Temple, as everything turned a smothering, final black around him…

Muur’s power is explicitly variable according to powers of his host.

Muur in the KotOR Time Period


chum wrote:Karness Muur being in this caliber of power is also consistent with how he is portrayed in earlier parts of Vector. For example, in the KOTOR comic series, it is shown that Karness Muur is classified as a threat to all eras, being called "the end of everything" and the characters in the vision (Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, and Cade Skywalker) reciprocate that it is happening "now".

Karness Muur is treated as no less of a looming threat during the KotOR time period than he is in the film time period.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco00310
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco00413
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco00513
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco00612
-Knights of the Old Republic #25: Vector Part 1 (2008, John Jackson Miller, Scott Hepburn)

If his nature were, as you suggest, that of a conventional opponent leagues and leagues beneath Darth Malak and Darth Revan, who are present in their (admittedly somewhat weaker, though still formidable) Jedi forms and just around the corner in their Sith forms, this would seem like very odd treatment.

Muur in the Film Time Period


Darth Vader, despite the massive injuries he sustained, is still in possession of extreme power.

Muur works to convince Vader that he could potentially overthrow Palpatine. Vader considers it a possibility, but this is from his own already likely biased perspective, with Karness Muur actively manipulating it on top of that.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Unnam241
-Dark Times #12: Vector Part 6 (2008, Mich Harrison, Dave Ross, Doug Wheatley)

Muur is shown to give people similar visions to tempt them, of things that would not happen in reality.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco21811
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco21911
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Unnam243
-Legacy #29: Vector Part 10 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

Not an extremely trustworthy source. And again, this is not Muur potentially killing Palpatine. This is Vader fully embracing Muur’s spirit potentially killing Palpatine. Two different things.

As far as whether or not Palpatine is more powerful than Muur generally speaking…

The Clone Wars - Wild Space (2008, Karen Miller) wrote:
"Master Yoda..." He steepled his fingers. "Are you quite certain young Anakin is ready for such a task?"

"Yes," said Yoda flatly.

And that was a lie. Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known. He was worried...and backed into a corner.

Clone Wars Gambit - Siege (2010, Karen Miller) wrote:
Only his brutally rigorous self-discipline, the discipline of the greatest Sith Lord ever to live, saved Sidious from revealing the depth of his fury as Yoda explained the mission to Lanteeb.

Darth Plagueis (2012, James Luceno) wrote:
Sidious paused, then, in derision, added, "Plagueis the Wise, who in his time truly was, except at the end, trusting that the Rule of Two had been superseded, and failed to realize that he would not be excused from it. Plagueis the Wise, who forged the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known, and yet who forgot to leave a place for himself; whose pride never allowed him to question that he would no longer be needed."

Geekosity - Endnotes for Star Wars: Book of Sith Part 3 (2012, Daniel Wallace) wrote:Darth Bane views the dark side of the Force as a limited quantity, and that two recipients (one to wield the power, one as the designated successor) represents the greatest Force concentration achievable while still ensuring the future of the Sith Order.

Is Bane correct? I don't know. HE thinks he's correct. On some cosmic level I do too, and that the concentration brought about by the Rule of Two allowed the dark side to grow in strength until the era of Palpatine -- the most powerful dark lord in history.

Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1 (2017) wrote:
With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

And these are just the ones from after Muur’s introduction.

If we want to look at Muur vs Palpatine from a holistic standpoint, from the view of all writers, it seems clear that the majority would not back Muur winning that fight.

If we want to isolate the opinions to those of the people directly involved in writing the Vector series (which still doesn’t favor your overly simplistic interpretation of Muur’s standing), then we’d also take away all the support of your (already very suspect) Muur < Revan/Malak scaling. We are given no reason to think that they would back a DR/Malak > Muur take, though we are perhaps given a bit to the opposite effect, as previously covered.

Muur in the Legacy Time Period


The Krayt that Muur fights is at death’s door.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Unnam244
-Legacy #30: Vector Part 11 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

Bar his fledgling state at the beginning of creating the One Sith, this is Krayt at his very weakest. This is further into his deterioration than either of the stats placing him on par with Yoda are set, so there’s no parity between dying!Krayt and Yoda.

chum wrote:This diminished version of Darth Krayt has better stats than Yoda or Sidious in minis.

The release of the Krayt miniature predates the Vector arc of Legacy by about half a year. The Krayt shown in the stats cannot have been Krayt as we see him in Vector.

Dying!Krayt is so much weaker than usual that it would be a significant amount of time before he’s able to defeat Celeste Morne on her own.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco25710
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco25810
-Legacy #31: Vector Part 12 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

In the same series, it’s made explicit that Morne stands no chance against Dark Times Vader in a very immediate sense.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco11710
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco11810
-Dark Times #12: Vector Part 6 (2008, Mich Harrison, Dave Ross, Doug Wheatley)

Despite Krayt being brought to this level, Muur, with full control of Morne, needs to draw on Krayt’s own powers to find the raw energies necessary to defeat him, as well as having the additional, minor distraction of Azlyn Rae stabbing Krayt through the chest with a lightsaber.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco26010
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco26110
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco26210
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco26310
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco26410
-Legacy #31: Vector Part 12 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

So good on Muur for outshining a grievously wounded, close to death, sub DT Vader Krayt by using other people’s powers. Not sure how this reflects at all on living!Muur’s power, or how this remotely supports an SoR Revan > RotS Yoda claim, but good on him.

chum wrote:If Muur were to overwhelm or escape Celeste Morne, who has been resisting his efforts to control her for centuries, and find a vessel he could dominate, he would "truly live again". In the same quote, this ‘truly live again’ Karness Muur is "perhaps" the most powerful Sith we have seen so far in Star Wars Legacy. And for the record, we have seen Founding Krayt, who should be at the pinnacle of his powers due to not experiencing the same extent of body deterioration as his Legacy (pre-rebirth) counterpart.

The Muur that would “truly live again” is a Muur that Krayt willingly gives control of his body to.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco24010
-Legacy #30: Vector Part 11 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco25010
-Legacy #30: Vector Part 11 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

Of course that would be just about the most powerful Sith Lord we would see. It would essentially be Reborn Krayt with Muur’s mind… as you noted, Krayt accomplished his rebirth by using the same ability that Muur was going to use. It continues to say nothing about living!Muur’s power. That hasn’t existed in any form since his original death.

The “truly live again” part is not because Muur would be restored to the same exact power level as while living. It is because his autonomy would be restored for the first time in millennia. He would have a willing Dark Side host, instead of the pesky Jedi who is constantly trying to subvert his goals.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco20010
-Legacy #28: Vector Part 9 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

chum wrote:This is also supported by Karness Muur, who believes that if he restored Darth Krayt and escaped Morne’s vessel, he could control him.

Muur controlling Krayt would not be due to superior power, merely Krayt shaking hands with the devil and not having the desire to resist Muur’s temptations the way Morne could. And this is all per Muur, who also thought he could dominate Morne and Cade in the same way when he first grabbed onto them with the Talisman. Spoiler alert: it didn’t go his way.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco26710
SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Rco26810
-Legacy #31: Vector Part 12 (2008, John Ostrander, Jan Duursema)

XoXaan


chum wrote:Before founding his Sith order, A’Sharad Hett learned the Sith arts under the guidance of Xoxaan. After 20 years of learning, Hett would emerge from Korriban to wreak vengeance against Darth Vader and Darth Sidious; however, Hett would realize that Luke Skywalker would steal his revenge. Determined to lose himself, Hett would venture into the unknown regions, where he would be captured by the Yuuzhan Vong, who would torture and experiment on him. This experience is noted to have been the catalyst for fully transitioning A’Sharad Hett into Darth Krayt.

When the chance came, Darth Krayt would escape the Vong scout ship and return to Korriban, where he would begin the One Sith.

Even when he begins the One Sith he is still receiving guidance from Xoxaan and if we look at stats, we can see that this version of Darth Krayt has stats close to episode III Yoda.

The XoXaan > Krayt ~ Yoda link is a very weak one.

XoXaan taught A’Sharad Hett because she knew more about the Dark Side than he did. That does not translate directly to power, especially in a case like this where A’Sharad has had no formal instruction on the Dark Side’s use. XoXaan had no power left at all… it’s just her holocron. Where’s the connection?

What suggests to you that the version of Krayt given stats in the Legacy Campaign Guide is the one at the very beginning of the One Sith, instead of, you know, the Krayt we see in Legacy?

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-013
-Legacy Campaign Guide (2009)

Both the description (bringing up the Sith-Imperial War and his capture of Cade Skywalker, so around issue 15 of the comic series) and the picture (Darth Wyyrlok III is referred to only as Darth Wyyrlok in the Legacy Campaign Guide, so it seems pretty certain that this is the Third there with Krayt) seem to suggest this is Legacy Krayt, if that weren’t already the most likely interpretation.

Finally, even if XoXaan did have a definitive link above Krayt, Darth Revan also has similar stats to Krayt in the Saga system.

Darth Revan ~ Darth Krayt < XoXaan

Would be just as valid. You don’t seem to be quite so eager to claim that connection, though.

Korriban Spirits


chum wrote:Around the time of ANH, Sidious would travel to Korriban so he could learn the ability to preserve his powers after death from the Jedi Exiles; however, he was assaulted by the spirits and left nearly dead.

When are they called the Jedi Exiles? There are plenty of Sith on Korriban besides the Exiles. What we have is a bunch of Sith spirits ganging up on an unprepared Palpatine and cowing him through unknown means in a mostly unknown context. We know Palpatine to be above any and all of them individually.

No real connection has been drawn here.

KotOR Supremacy?

chum wrote:Revan learned everything he could from the Jedi Order, which has an extensive collection of Jedi knowledge, and said Jedi Order has been put up in contention with the likes of the PT Jedi Order as the prime of the Jedi.

There aren’t going to be two primes of the Jedi Order, and when it comes down to it, it is the Prequel Order that is the Order’s prime.





SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-041

Recency? Check (TCW Spot). Frequency? Check (at least 5). Visibility? Check (RotS novel is high profile). Coolness? Check (RotS novel passage). Officiality? Check (more than one from George Lucas).

chum wrote:Revan later turns into a Sith after his visit to the unknown regions, and the Jedi Civil War begins. At this time, Revan is classed as the most dangerous threat the republic has faced, with the KOTOR remake trailer saying that the republic faces the greatest Sith they’ve seen in generations.

As far as Revan’s Sith Supremacy statements go, we have only a quote calling him the Republic’s deadliest enemy, though not necessarily the most deadly they’ve faced (sneaky little add-in there!), one quote from the advertising materials of a remake of very dubious canon status calling Revan the most powerful Sith “in generations” (almost implies they’re hesitant to stretch it back further than that), and one calling the Sith their most deadly before the Mandalorian Wars… before Revan or Malak would’ve become a Sith (clear enough what they mean, but if that’s the kind of knowledge they’re working with I would not consider the source authoritative).

All in all, I’m not sold on it being “in contention” with the PT on either front.

SWTOR


Revan’s Progression


Revan’s progression from his novel form to SoR was not all growth.

First is the mental split. He lost his light half, and with that much of his power, not to mention wisdom and prudence.

Beyond that, Revan also needs to maintain his body, puppeteering the corpse. That is more power, more control that needs to be pulled away from winning whatever fight is at hand.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-042
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

SoR Revan is powerful, no doubt, but also insane and diminished from what he could be.

SoR Revan vs Vitiate


The main conflict of the SoR expansion is that Revan must be stopped because he cannot be allowed to resurrect Vitiate. Because he would lose.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-047
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-044
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-045
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-046
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014) wrote:[Jedi Knight:]”It was his spirit. He couldn’t tell me who’s wearing his mask, but he did confirm that trying to kill the Emperor wouldn’t work.”

The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014) wrote:[Sith Inquisitor:] ”Have some common sense. The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn’t stand a chance.”

The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014) wrote:[Sith Warrior:] ”Even at his weakest, you are no match for the Emperor.”

The talk is of “restoring”, “returning” Vitiate. There would be no reason to think that he would come back stronger than before his death at the hands of the Hero of Tython; Revan has every reason to try for the opposite.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-048
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-049
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-050
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

We are given nothing to suggest that the (for the moment hypothetical) restored Vitiate that SoR Revan stands no chance against is any more powerful than the Sith Emperor we’ve seen before. We are given no reasons for why that could be the case, either. Why would Revan’s ritual with the end goal of killing Vitiate be used to give him any kind of leg up relative to his prior incarnations?

Another thing I’d like to take note of is the strike team that went up against Revan. It was composed of the Hero of Tython, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Kira Carsen, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizsla, Jakarro, and Theron Shan.

They all contributed to some degree and survived the fight.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Unnam245

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 1668617588

Did Satele grow that much between Act III and SoR? Why?

What about the weaker Force users?

What about the non Force users?

Their very presence in the fight indicates that SoR Revan is not the same kind of threat as the Sith Emperor.

So, we have to conclude that some step of your scaling is incorrect, as SoR Revan is explicitly and necessarily weaker than the Sith Emperor.

Perhaps the Hero of Tython had a Flash of Brilliance(™) against Vitiate, not to be the level of power that he returns to in every fight, as some have theorized. This would seem to be consistent with the kind of opponents they take on immediately after Act III… Lord Loyat, Darth Arho, Darth Serevin, and Darth Malgus (fighting Malgus as part of a strike team which, as previously noted, needed the entire team’s skills, wits, and resources to win).

Neither of the quotes you give to show the Hero of Tython is more powerful than Vitiate end up doing so. The Hero of Tython is only “too powerful” to be dominated by Vitiate’s will alone, not “too powerful” for Vitiate to fight. He ends up being no match for the Hero of Tython… but that’s “for all his power”... despite his awesome power he loses the battle for reasons outside his control.

Regardless of the rationalization, your scaling falls apart. SoR Revan would not be portrayed as stomping groups of Malaks.


Last edited by Darth Durin's Baneling on July 24th 2023, 3:58 am; edited 2 times in total
Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Empty Yoda Post #1 Part 2

July 24th 2023, 3:49 am

Drain as a Win Condition SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 4037459623


Dark Reaper


chum wrote:At the beginning of the Clone Wars, Count Dooku attempted to use the ancient artifact known as the Dark Reaper. The Dark Reaper is capable of draining the life force out of anything within its vicinity, and the Jedi Council says that if the Dark Reaper were to be used by the separatists, the Republic would fall.

In short, this would indicate that Yoda does not know how to resist force drain, establishing my win condition for this debate.

The Dark Reaper’s drain is not a run-of-the-mill drain. It requires a specific technique to resist it. This drain is not closely analogous to any of the other variants of the ability you’ve brought up.

Additionally, Yoda potentially being able to resist the Reaper wouldn’t preclude it from still being a win for the Separatists. Its drain can hit entire worlds. If Coruscant were to be hit by the Dark Reaper, it’s a loss for the Jedi regardless of whether or not its top Masters survived, as the heart of the Republic’s bureaucracy and infrastructure would be gone.

Revan’s Drain


chum wrote:Revan not only knew how to use force drain but could also use a more advanced version that was enhanced by the event on Malachor.

Not one of these quotes states that Revan is capable of a Nihilus-esque drain, only that he was able to feed on the Dark Side energies of a Dark Side nexus. Much wow, such impress.

chum wrote:Revan directly references this when using drain in Shadow of Revan.

Seems like a leap.

Revan’s “there’s no cost too great” is about the cost in lives of the people he’s killing to get to his true target, not about giving up his identity with the Force drain.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 2023-051
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Unnam246
-The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan (2014)

Based on every single one of Revan’s fights, Revan is incapable of doing this drain that there’s no defense against. If he were capable, he would have used it against Vitiate, or against the Foundry Strike Team, etc. But he never did, suggesting that he’s simply not capable of oneshotting someone with drain regardless of their Force defenses.

Really, just take a look at his final battle in SoR. He is attacked by the player character, Marr, Satele, Lana, and a bunch of non-Force-sensitives. Not only does he canonically fail to kill the player character, Marr, Satele, or Lana with his drain, but he doesn’t kill Theron Shan, Shae Vizsla, or Jakarro, either.

Revan has no guarantee of oneshotting even non-Force-sensitives with drain. He won’t suddenly be doing that against Yoda.

Finally, you give this drain ability to Revan as far back as when he’s Darth Revan. Yet, in none of the stats that you seem to take as accurate summaries of the character’s combative ability is “Force Drain” listed among his abilities.

Yoda’s Titanic Potency SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 3750555731


Film and Film Peripheral Sources

chum wrote:In a George Lucas-vetted source, Darth Sidious is said to be unbeatable by Yoda, which is also repeated by Nick Gillard, who has worked closely with Lucas and is the one who choreographed the PT.

Here’s a fuller version of that passage:

Revenge of the Sith novelization (2005, Matthew Stover) wrote:
In the Senate Arena, lightning forked from the hands of a Sith, and bent away from the gesture of a Jedi to shock Redrobes into unconsciousness.

Then there were only the two of them.

Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh.

A thousand years of hidden Sith exulted in their victory.

"Your time is over! The Sith rule the galaxy! Now and forever!"

And it was the whole of the Jedi Order that rocketed from its huddle, making of its own body a weapon to blast the Sith to the ground.

"At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was, I must say."

There appeared a blade the color of life.

From the shadow of a black wing, a small weapon-a holdout, an easily concealed backup, a tiny bit of treachery expressing the core of Sith mastery-slid into a withered hand and spat a flame-colored blade of its own.

When those blades met, it was more than Yoda against Palpatine, more the millennia of Sith against the legions of Jedi; this was the expression of the fundamental conflict of the universe itself.

Light against dark.

Winner take all.

[...]

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

Just–

Didn't–

Have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi–The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

To reduce it to “Palpatine is just a way better duelist and stronger Force user than Yoda” is not correct. The passage itself dismisses those as the reason for the battle turning in Palpatine’s favor. No physical strike decided the battle one way or the other, but the Jedi had lost the conceptual battle to the Sith, and their fighting only fueled the dark side’s power.

Note also in the passage, from what you acknowledged as a Lucas-vetted source, that Palpatine is repeatedly placed as the greatest of the Sith and Avatar of the Dark, and Yoda as the greatest of the Jedi and Avatar of the Light.

Among high Lucas involvement sources, this passage is far from alone in suggesting that.

George Lucas / Story Conference / November 28 - December 2, 1977 (Star Wars Archives 1977-1983) wrote:
Maybe something in the Force tells him to go (to Gas Planet) to save his friends, but the creature asks how he knows it's the good side of the Force that's telling him to go there? He's getting the feeling about where to go from the Force, but you don't know whether it's his desire to find his friends or whether it's Vader feeding him information. If we set up something earlier, after the first act with the Emperor, one dialogue scene, where he says, "You get Luke." It's better to have somebody worse than Vader. The dark side of the Force has to be personified and the best way is to personify the Emperor, making him the ultimate bad guy.

[...]

The Emperor is even more powerful than Vader. He is also an agent of the Force and he's the classic devil character. Hooded, dark figure - you don't even see who he is. Vader walks down the hall of the Imperial planet. There are these huge, narrow, steel corridors, very gray. Have Vader walking down this gray corridor and then he goes into a gray room. It's all steel and there at the end of the room on a throne is a gray, macabre, cold steel box and it's the Emperor. Really sterile and gray, cold interior. The Emperor tells Vader to stop Luke - to get Luke - he is the last of the Jedi and must be stopped. Vader is saying he's not a Jedi yet. Question is how quickly do we dole out things about the Emperor. The Emperor is even more powerful than Vader. The Emperor has to go for another three more episodes after Vader - he's got to last a lot longer. If you get rid of Vader you've got a worse Vader behind him. Not as dramatic as Vader, but at the same time more sinister. Vader is just one of his lap dogs. Do we show the Emperor this time or wait until the next one where we finally confront the Emperor. Once you've seen the Emperor, you're locked in on him. Decision now is not to see him - just hear about him - we don't see his face. Just a hooded figure - it's reminiscent of Ben. In the end, the Emperor does exactly what Ben did - he can also transform himself. As Ben becomes the personification of the good side of the Force, the Emperor is the bad. Another way to treat the Emperor would be as a bureaucrat, Nixonian in his outlook, sort of a Wizard of Oz type person. Maybe good this time to talk about the Emperor as this terrible force and that Vader is really afraid of the Emperor. That's the only thing Vader is afraid of. Best way to set up a super-villain is to take the biggest villain you've got and make him afraid of the super-villain. We'll set up something where Vader is afraid of the Emperor.

[...]

The Emperor may be the one who is saved for the end. When you get rid of the Emperor, the whole thing is over with. The final episode is the restoration of the Republic.

Star Wars Episode III: Becoming Sidious Webisode (2005) wrote:
[George Lucas:] “Now you've created the archvillain of all time, but I guess it's all in a day's work.”

Revenge of the Sith novelization (2005, Matthew Stover) wrote:
And his apprentice kills him in his sleep," Palpatine said with a careless shrug. "Plagueis never sees it coming. That's the tragic irony, you see: he can save anyone in the galaxy from death - except himself."

"What about the apprentice? What happens to him?"

"Oh, him. He goes on to become the greatest Dark Lord the Sith have ever known…”

Darth Plagueis (2012, James Luceno) wrote:"The truth is that I haven't changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours. Never once did I have any intention of sharing power with you. I needed to learn from you; no more, no less. To learn all of your secrets, which I trusted you would eventually reveal. But what made you think that I would need you after that? Vanity, perhaps; your sense of self-importance. You've been nothing more than a pawn in a game played by a genuine Master.

"The Sith'ari."

Darth Plagueis (2012, James Luceno) wrote:Sidious paused, then, in derision, added, "Plagueis the Wise, who in his time truly was, except at the end, trusting that the Rule of Two had been superseded, and failed to realize that he would not be excused from it. Plagueis the Wise, who forged the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known, and yet who forgot to leave a place for himself; whose pride never allowed him to question that he would no longer be needed."

In the movies themselves, we get stuff like:

The Phantom Menace (1999) wrote:[Obi-Wan:] ”The reading’s off the chart. Over 20,000. Not even Master Yoda has a Midi-chlorian count that high.”

[Qui-Gon:] “No Jedi has.”

Attack of the Clones (2002) wrote:[Palpatine:] ”In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then, you will be invincible. I have said it many times: you are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met.”

[Anakin:] “Thank you, your excellency.”

[Palpatine:] “I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.”

Attack of the Clones (2002) wrote:[Dooku:] ”I have become more powerful than any Jedi, even you.”

Yoda is repeatedly used as the benchmark for unprecedented power. Whenever a point is made of Anakin’s potential being higher than anyone else’s in history, a point is made to compare the hypothetical future Anakin to Yoda. It is always “even” Yoda. As far as Jedi go, he is not playing second fiddle to anyone in the history of the Order.

Yoda’s Midi-Chlorian count is also implied to be the highest on record – that would include Revan’s. Having had nearly 900 years to hone his abilities, Yoda’s actualized Force power relative to his potential would be second to none – no doubt even higher than Revan’s.

Sure, it’s merely implied rather than stated. It’s not a bind. In discussions like these, nothing is. The idea is pretty clearly there though, at the highest level, making it unlikely that Yoda would be less powerful than any Jedi before him.

George Lucas seems fairly liberal in labeling and approving works that label Palpatine the greatest Sith and Yoda the greatest Jedi, from the beginnings of the universe up to after the introduction of characters like Exar Kun, Revan, Malak, Vitiate, etc.

I don’t think we have any reason to think Lucas would change his mind for the likes of SoR Revan or the Outlander.

As for the Gillard quote, it just does not say what you say it says lol. It says that Mace is second to Yoda, but Palpatine would defeat Mace every time. No part of that necessitates or remotely implies that Palpatine would also defeat Yoda every time.

In favor of Yoda being with Palpatine as a combatant, we have Palpatine’s hesitation to fight Yoda, Yoda disarming him of his lightsaber in some versions of the fight, Yoda trading ragdolls with him, and Yoda stalemating his lightning attacks.


-Revenge of the Sith (2005)

Revenge of the Sith junior novelization (2005, Patricia C. Wrede) wrote:An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another – and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow.

Their parity on an even playing field is pretty well-established on the film level.

So we have:

Yoda > Spirit Revan ~ DS SoR Revan

Yoda ~ Palpatine > SoR Revan

Yoda ~ Palpatine > Vitiate > SoR Revan

I’d also like you to think back on the point I raised earlier, on how Revan being with Vitiate is further disproven by the apparently none-too-high threshold for characters to be a positive factor against Revan, as opposed to the uselessness of high-tier Jedi against Vitiate.

Vitiate is not the only person who gets something like that.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 1ietu310
-The Making of Revenge of the Sith (2005, J.W. Rinzler)

(Note that Lucas is giving the explanation of who can compete with the Emperor in the context of the B-team being killed in the presence of one of the people he listed as capable of competing with him.)

Revenge of the Sith (2005) wrote:[Obi-Wan:] “Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin.”
[Yoda:] “To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not.”

Revenge of the Sith novelization (2005, Matthew Stover) wrote:"Why? Why matters not. There is no why. There is only a Lord of the Sith, and his apprentice. Two Sith." Yoda leaned close. "And two Jedi."

Obi-Wan nodded, but he still couldn't meet the gaze of the ancient Master. "I'll take Palpatine."

"Strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will, and painfully."

"Don't make me kill Anakin," he said. "He's like my brother, Master."

"The boy you trained, gone he is-twisted by the dark side. Consumed by Darth Vader. Out of this misery, you must put him. To visit our new Emperor, my job will be."

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

"True," Yoda said. "But both of us apart, a chance we might create . . ."

I hope you’re not going to make a case for Jedi like Obi-Wan Kenobi, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin being categorically weaker than the likes of Lana Beniko, Shae Vizsla, Jakarro, and Theron Shan. I could maybe be convinced of that for Saesee, but not the others.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) 1019854026

Also dealing with Vitiate, Revan has no chance of beating him because he is “Dark Side incarnate”.

Whom else might that description apply to?

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Unnam247

And whom do we know to be capable of fighting on even terms against that person?

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Yodasf10

Revan, while strong, is not “Light/Dark incarnate” strong. And for that, he is doomed to lose this battle.

SWTOR Writers’ Perspective


Charles Boyd says that he sees Revan and Yoda as characters in similar standing.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Unnam248

Additionally, the many descriptive and aesthetic similarities between Palpatine and Vitiate are no coincidence. Revan’s superior in the Sith Emperor is a proto-Palpatine in the eyes of his creators.

Everything we’ve seen from the writers of SWTOR indicates that they hold the film characters in high regard compared to the likes of Revan and Vitiate. If their stances are biased one way or the other, it would undoubtedly be in their characters’ favor.

Conclusion!


The scaling chain is an unoriginal and internally inconsistent mess. It falls apart under any scrutiny.

Drain is not giving Revan the auto-win, sorry to disappoint. As Revan’s “win condition for the debate”, it’s a pretty weak one.

Yoda’s supreme status as a Jedi and foe of the dark is very consistent, as is Palpatine’s supreme status as a Sith Lord and foe of the light. The intent and thematic relevance of these characterizations is a constant at the highest levels of authority. We have no reason to think this would have changed. A Dark Sider such as Revan, as well as his Sith and Jedi peers and superiors, is going to be lesser than either.

Yoda gives Revan a lesson in humility.

SS - Revan (chum) vs Yoda (Darth Durin's Baneling) Maxres11
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