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Primarch
Primarch

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

October 20th 2021, 6:26 pm
SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) 2021-110

Rules:
- Raskta Lsu as of Darth Bane: Rule of Two
- Asajj Ventress as of Obsession
- Both debaters must follow all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include, but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing
- There will be 3 posts per side with a maximum of 2 months per post to respond
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

October 24th 2021, 1:23 am
oh god
Primarch
Primarch

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

October 24th 2021, 5:44 am
L O B E N Z O
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

October 24th 2021, 6:18 pm
@Primarch wrote:L O B E N Z O
R A N D O M A S S L O S E R
Primarch
Primarch

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

October 29th 2021, 5:34 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Primarch wrote:L O B E N Z O
R A N D O M A S S L O S E R
F A M O U S R O M A N F R O M C O M I C V I N E
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

October 30th 2021, 6:18 pm
@Primarch wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Primarch wrote:L O B E N Z O
R A N D O M A S S L O S E R
F A M O U S R O M A N F R O M C O M I C V I N E
L O L P O S T M Y H O M E A D D R E S S T O O B I T C H
Primarch
Primarch

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

October 31st 2021, 8:52 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Primarch wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Primarch wrote:L O B E N Z O
R A N D O M A S S L O S E R
F A M O U S R O M A N F R O M C O M I C V I N E
L O L P O S T M Y H O M E A D D R E S S T O O B I T C H
38.8977° N, 77.0365° W
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

October 31st 2021, 9:18 pm
@Primarch wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Primarch wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Primarch wrote:L O B E N Z O
R A N D O M A S S L O S E R
F A M O U S R O M A N F R O M C O M I C V I N E
L O L P O S T M Y H O M E A D D R E S S T O O B I T C H
38.8977° N, 77.0365° W
SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) 1076326320
Primarch
Primarch

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

November 13th 2021, 12:12 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
"Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."
-Darth Bane





Part I: Debunking Banite scaling

As we're probably aware, all debates that involve Bane, a character from his era or any Banite Sith that isn't Sidious (or possibly Plagueis) always ends up being centred around Banite scaling. So let us toss it aside before we actually get into the meat of the matter by reviewing every quote that supports Banite scaling and providing ones that say the opposite.

The Phantom Menace Scrapbook wrote:As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.

This source is from 1999 so it predates Bane, therefore it has no effect on him.

Force and Destiny wrote:Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation

This source is part of Disney's canon so it obviously has no effect on the EU.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #1 wrote:Never again would there be more than two Sith Lords at one time, but members of the order continued expanding their dark powers without the knowledge of the Jedi, waiting for the opportunity to seize control of the galaxy

The fact file is an IU source written by New Republic historians:

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Fact_f10

Translation: A long time ago, in a distant galaxy, very far away. . . The New Republic rules from the planet Coruscant in an era of instability. 28 years after the destruction of the second Death Star, the President has decreed that all reports, documents, books and plans of the Old Republic, the Trade Federation, the Empire, and the New Republic are to be integrated into a single immense file. All the extraordinary, rich and brilliant history of the Star Wars universe is here: discover it in the Official Star Wars Fact File.

Aside from the fact that it isn't reasonable to always take quotes from historians about past events to be true, the historians would've also been lacking sufficient information due to how much the Galactic Empire destroyed or changed:

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Galact10

Insider #88 wrote:For a thousand years, we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred.

Given the use of the word "we", this also comes from an IU perspective and thus there is no way of proving it is reliable.

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Rot10

Nothing in this quote actually says the apprentice always surpasses the master, only states that the apprentice will always kill their master if they ever do happen to surpass them.

Databank: Sith Vengence wrote:Over a millennium woven with shadowy conspiracy, their dark powers grew, teetering the Force into imbalance.

Never actually says Bane was the starting point of the Banite growth.

As for quotes that say the opposite, Labyrinth of Evil states that the Banite growth only took place over the last 2 centuries:

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:For two hundred years before the coming of Darth Sidious the power of the dark side had been gaining strength,

The same author created Darth Gravid as a plot device to separate prior Banites from later ones:

James Luceno wrote:Gravid was an invention of mine. I needed some way to distance Plagueis from the ancient teachings and powers. The more I thought about Gravid, the more interesting his/her story became. In my mind, at any rate.
Source

Stats place Bane above later Banites (keep in mind this is PoD Bane):

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SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Darth_10

Lucas also stated that the Rule of Two arrangement never worked:

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Thus, Banite scaling has been axed on the highest level of canonicity.

Part II: Bane vs Dooku

PoD Bane has stats that place him above Ventress' superior in Dooku:

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Upon receiving 2 orbalisks at the start of RoT, Bane feels more powerful than ever:

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:Bane reached inward to call upon the dark side, drawing it not only from himself but also from the orbalisks fastened to his chest and back. Feeling an incredible surge of power beyond any he had known before, he released it in a burst of energy. The hallucinations that had plagued his wounded mind ever since the detonation of the thought bomb vanished, instantly and utterly annihilated by his newfound power. He was stronger now than he ever had been, and he knew the visions of the dead Sith would haunt him no more.

This is significant as Bane has previously possessed the power of the Brotherhood of Darkness via the fire ritual:

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction wrote:This is how it should be! All the power of the Brotherhood in one body! The only way to unleash the full potential of the dark side!

And you probably know, Bane shortly after this ends up being fully clad in orbalisk armour. So in conclusion, this leaves us with:

Full orbalisk armour Bane >>>>>>>>>> 2 orbalisk Bane > Fire ritual Bane >>>>> PoD Bane > Dooku >> Ventress

Part III: Lsu vs Bane

During the duel on Tython, Lsu is able to show a degree of closeness to Bane in full orbalisk armour. Given how much this Bane dwarfs Ventress in scaling, it'd be absurd to suggest she even has a slight chance of beating Lsu. For one, Zannah concludes that her and Farfalla are "exceptionally skilled" as a result of them lasting longer against Bane than she thought.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:Knowing exactly where it would end by watching where it began, she was able to momentarily divert her attention from the combat to see how her Master was doing. To her surprise, both of Bane's opponents were still standing; proof they were exceptionally skilled combatants.

Within the duel itself, she is able to:
(1) Drive Bane onto the defensive, while it is possible than Bane let himself be driven back to attack Worror, this would still prove that Lsu is fairly close to Bane as he wouldn't resort to a tactic against someone that is massively below him.
(2) Maintain a defense against Bane as a means of protecting Worror.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:
He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face - the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, Bane was giving ground.

"Stay back!" she shouted at Farfalla. "You'll just get in the way."

Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

She seemed to be everywhere at once - in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought.


Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

Battle meditation required Master Worror's complete focus; there was no chance for him to mount any type of defense. If Bane cut him down, the others would lose the only advantage that gave them any chance of surviving the encounter.

Farfalla released the power he'd been gathering in a single concentrated burst. Bane was suddenly encased in a shimmering stasis field of light-side energy, freezing him where he stood. But his command of the dark side was too powerful for it to hold him for more than a split second. The shimmering field exploded into fragments as the Dark Lord broke free, though the momentary delay had allowed the Echani to place herself between the Ithorian and the Sith.

Raskta's blades hummed and sang as she engaged him again, determined to keep him from reaching Master Worror at all costs.

While it is true that she was amped by battle meditation during this, Bane was likewise amped by 2 dark side nexi, Tython itself and Belia Darzu's fortress:

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:Bane didn't know if the legend was true, but even if it was, it merely proved the superiority of the dark side and its inevitable conquest of the light. For though the followers of Ashla had supposedly defeated the followers of Boga, the dark side had prevailed in the end. Tython, revered by many as the birthplace of the Jedi Order itself, was now a bastion of dark side power, and the location of Belia Darzu's hidden fortress.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:Near the back of the building he came upon a narrow set of stairs leading down to the underground levels. One thing Hetton's research had not provided was a map of the stronghold's interior, but he could feel the power emanating from beneath him. There was little doubt that the source of the dark side energies hanging like smoke in the air of every room and hallway of the fortress was located at the bottom of the steps. It was here, Bane knew, that he would find Belia's inner sanctum.

He crept down the stairs. At the bottom was another long, narrow hall, and at the end of this corridor was a small, archaic wooden door. A sliver of pale fluorescent light shone out from beneath. Unlike the floor above, Bane realized, generators were still providing power to the room beyond - another sign that it was of critical importance.

Bane approached the door, pausing at the threshold. He was unable to get any sense of what awaited him on the other side; his Force awareness was overwhelmed by a great concentration of dark side power. Taking a deep breath, he gently pushed open the door and stared in fascinated horror.

So if anything, the net advantage was in Bane's favour.

Conclusion

Lsu hangs Ventress' corpse on a meat rack.
Vaelias
Vaelias

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

November 13th 2021, 4:35 pm
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Top quality post SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) 1289255181
Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Asajj Ventress Post #1 Part 1

November 13th 2021, 7:42 pm
Asajj Ventress curbstomps Rasta Sue. The only real debate to be had is if she opts to do so in the literal sense or not.

PT Supremacy over Bane era


PT Jedi Superiority


To start off, there are many quotes placing the Prequel Trilogy time period as the prime of the Jedi, from Lucas himself, as well as Gillard.

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George Lucas wrote:This is the heyday, the Golden Age of Jedi. We see Jedi in large battle scenes, battling as a large group. We'd never seen that before, it'd always been a couple of Jedi fighting each other.

In these quotes Lucas and Gillard refer to the PT and only the PT. They are also explicitly referring to their combative abilities (“fighting style defining the prime of the Jedi”, “golden age of the Jedi, but not all Jedi fight exactly alike”).

There are also a few that make it clear that the Jedi had a thousand years of advancement.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just- didn't- have it. He'd never had it. He'd lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new. While the Jedi - The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to re-fight the last war.

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Unname23

(Second one is obviously IU, but the Black Sun is not contradicted by the source itself [or the other material, as I will prove], so it should reflect authorial intent. It also demonstrates that the Jedi’s millenium of growth is common knowledge, thus likely notable).

This places the Jedi of the Banite era firmly at the bottom of a valley of weak patheticness in terms of era strengths.

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Unname24

Volfe Karkko


The Jedi High Council represents the best the Jedi Order has to offer.

Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia wrote:Jedi Knights are superbly trained as warriors, and the members of the Jedi Council represent the best of the Order.

While there are exceptions to this rule (Revan, Dooku, Fay), it is evidence to put them above all other members of the Order, unless those non-Councilors have accolades or showings to suggest that they are an exception. Raskta Lsu does not. So there is evidence that she is inferior to individual members of the Council of her era, while there is no evidence to the contrary.

Volfe Karkko was able to combat at least five members of the Jedi High Council soon after Bane’s time (at a point where the Jedi Order would, if anything, be stronger than Bane’s era to a slight degree, given that they had begun their millennium of advancement). After a hard fought battle (Great was that battle and strong was Karkko but in the end the Council prevailed, and he seems to be depicted killing one), he was imprisoned in a stasis.

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Volfe was released from his imprisonment in the PT era, and his powers were increased by draining the Anzati of the life essence they consumed.

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[...]
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Even so, he was defeated by Quinlan Vos.

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[...]
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Years of advancement later, Vos was defeated with ease by Agen Kolar when they confronted one another.

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So Raskta Lsu < individual members of Bane-era High Council <<<<< at least 5/12 members of the slightly-post-Bane-era High Council, most likely picked from among the strongest >~ Volfe Karkko << Volfe Karkko after consuming “soup” from Anzati ~< pre-AotC Quinlan Vos < CW Quinaln Vos << Agen Kolar.

Agen is in turn hard capped at a oneshot gap below Sidious, so it’s not as though he and Quinlan are some titans in the PT era. He is also inferior to Kit Fisto and Mace Windu, who lasted significantly longer against Sidious. I will come back to this later in the post for what this does for Ventress specifically.

PT Sith Superiority


Rule of Two


Darth Bane’s legacy was the Rule of Two. The point of the Rule of Two was to create increasingly more powerful Sith with each generation. While this didn’t happen with every generation, there is a marked upward trend, with Bane being the starting point, denoting him as one of the weakest in the entire Rule of Two lineup.

The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

@Primarch wrote:The fact file is an IU source written by New Republic historians:

While the fact file and the Insider article are both IU, they are not contradicted by anything you brought up. The Insider article even is from the perspective of the Sith themselves, who obviously wouldn’t be lacking in knowledge. They are by no means binding, but OOU quotes are not either. The authors’ intent would obviously be for what they write to be accurate, so unless it was contradicted by an OOU source, it stands as evidence. It is not contradicted by an OOU source, so again, it stands as evidence.

@Primarch wrote:Nothing in this quote actually says the apprentice always surpasses the master, only states that the apprentice will always kill their master if they ever do happen to surpass them.

It says “when” the apprentice becomes more powerful, not “if.” While there are a few exceptions to this we know of (Gean), it is evidence that shows that for the Ro2 it is only a matter of time for the apprentice to surpass the master, thus making the rest of the statement applicable to the Sith in the Ro2 with only a select few exceptions.

@Primarch wrote:“Never actually says Bane was the starting point of the Banite growth.”

:subvader:

It says a millennium of growth. Guess when Bane was around relative to the PT?

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:That had been the case with the Jedi Order. For two hundred years before the coming of Darth Sidious the power of the dark side had been gaining strength, and yet the Jedi had made only minimal efforts to thwart it. The Sith were pleased by the fact that the Jedi, too, had been allowed to grow so powerful, because, in the end, their sense of entitlement would blind them to what was occurring in their midst.

The bit on the power of the Dark Side refers to the growing shadow over the Jedi’s foresight abilities, put into effect by Tenebrous and his unnamed Master, not the personal power of the Sith Order. You’ll notice that the two hundred years figure does not align with when Gravid would have been around, discounting that theory, while it is in the range of when Tenebrous + Master began the Dark Side clouding via ritual.

Darth Plagueis wrote:A human Sith Lord whose short reign had elapsed some five centuries earlier, Gravid had been persuaded to believe that total commitment to the dark side would sentence the Sith Order to eventual defeat, and so had sought to introduce Jedi selflessness and compassion into his teachings and practice, forgetting that there can be no return to the light for an adept who has entered the dark wood; that the dark side will not surrender one to whom, by mutual agreement, it has staked a claim.

Reading the text, it says the Jedi made “minimal effort to thwart it.” How would they “thwart” the growing combative power of the Sith if they couldn’t find them? It is not referring to what you claim it refers to.

Darth Plagueis wrote:Plagueis took it under advisement. "Their time is coming, Sidious. The signs are in the air. Their Order might have already been decimated had it not been for the setback Darth Gravid dealt the Sith. But his apprentice carried the imperative forward, and each successive Sith Lord improved on it, Tenebrous and his Master most of all, though they wasted years attempting to create a targeted virus that could be deployed against the Jedi, separating them from the Force.

This shows that after Gravid (500+ years before PT), the Sith furthered their goal of destroying the Jedi Order, showing that the quote saying that the Dark Side itself had become stronger for 200 years either:

wasn’t referring to their personal power
Is retconned by the more recent source

The second part (that you conveniently left out) stands as yet another piece of evidence of the Jedi Order’s, (and by extension of being able to keep up with the best of the Jedi, the Sith Order’s), considerable growth from the time of Bane.

James Luceno wrote:Gravid was an invention of mine. I needed some way to distance Plagueis from the ancient teachings and powers. The more I thought about Gravid, the more interesting his/her story became. In my mind, at any rate.

Gravid was a tool used to separate the philosophy and teachings of the Bane-era Sith and the modern Sith. They are different, clearly. Gravid did not exist around the 200 year figure though, so the connection you are drawing just isn’t there.

@Primarch wrote:Lucas also stated that the Rule of Two arrangement never worked:

Lucas did say that, but the reason he said the Ro2 didn't work wasn't because he didn't believe the Sith surpassed the last, it was because "The rule of two ensures that if there's more than two, they'll kill each other until there are two left." The EU is also unbound from at least part of that quote ("There was never a war between the Jedi and the Sith Lords"); if not the whole thing.

The minis stats are very unreliable. They have Sidious below the likes of Saesee Tiin and Plo Koon in terms of their actual combative stats, which is obviously not the case.

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Even if we only want to take into account the number in the upper right, even that is rarely accurate. For example, Grievous is placed above both Sidious and Dooku there, as is Mace.

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I hope you don’t need me to explain why that’s stupid. I can, but I don’t want to spend time doing that.

While this in itself doesn’t automatically mean that the Minis are never correct, it does mean that they are a very unreliable source, and should be taken with a grain of salt. I’d be hesitant to rely on any stat comparison except as an accessory to an already supported scaling position. Given that it’s your only link in the post that actually puts Bane above Ventress, your entire scaling is on very shaky ground.

Bane’s Minis stats are especially unreliable because they are outdated.

You’ll notice that his stats came out in 2006.

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Unname35

Path of Destruction was only released in 2007.

Bane’s character was barely established prior to this; only in the brief Jedi vs Sith comic series and a few sourcebooks and obscure web articles. A great deal about Bane was retconned by the Bane trilogy itself.

Characters aren’t locked below a certain level if the statement, stat, or whatever else may be “binding” them was released before their character was fully established. For example, take the quotes putting RotJ Vader above all previous versions of the character, including KFV. We know that those are not reliable, as almost all of those statements were released long before the Prequel trilogy.

By the same token, the writers’ perception of Bane in 2006 would be very different from their perception after the release of the Bane trilogy. One would need to argue that the intent for Bane to be as good as he is presented in those stats was maintained even after the release of the Bane trilogy, which, unfortunately for your argument, is not the case.

One example is how Bane went from Dxun to Onderon.

Star Wars Gamer #3: Bane of the Sith wrote:Long ago, Dxun had grazed the planet Onderon, close enough that it was possible for creatures to pass across the conjoined atmosphere. Perhaps Bane could nudge the beast moon close enough so that he could travel to the nearby planet that filled the sky. In bloodshed and chaos, Darth Bane would go to Onderon and there he would find his apprentice.

Whereas in the current version, Bane merely creates a bubble of air around himself and his mount to get from moon to planet. Impressive, but far less so.

Further shifts in the conception of Bane’s power level are displayed in the card itself.

For example, the stats say Bane has Sith Sorcery, whereas now we know that Bane can’t do that in DoE, let alone PoD.

For another, Bane is put above Revan as well as Palpatine.

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Unname36

Palpatine, who is invariably stated above Bane and has far better feats and scaling, and Revan, who PoD Bane all but worships.

Path of Destruction wrote:Bane wasn't surprised that Kas'im didn't recognize the quote. The words had been written by Darth Revan nearly three millennia earlier. The Masters were as lax as the students when it came to studying the ancient writings. It seemed the Academy had turned its back on the past champions of the dark side.

Path of Destruction wrote:Then a voice spoke, crisp and clear. "I am Darth Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith."

The empty halls of the Temple above trembled with the reverberations of Bane's triumphant, booming laughter.

To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them. Yet he dutifully copied them down on sheaves of flimsi, preserving them so he could study them in greater depth later.

So not only are the minis stats unreliable, Bane’s is outdated.

Plagueis’s is also outdated. As of 2009 (when the card was made), pretty much all we knew about Plagueis was that he existed… if that. The Darth Plagueis novel changed just about everything we knew of Plagueis and his role in the Star Wars universe.

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Unname37

Speaking of the Darth Plagueis novel, it establishes that Plagueis believes himself to be more powerful than any Sith to precede him.

Darth Plagueis wrote:Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

While some Ancient Sith can claim exemption to this, Bane, not too far before Plagueis and directly acknowledged many times in the book, and indirectly passing down much of his knowledge to Plagueis, obviously isn’t.

The Darth Plagueis novel is both more recent and of higher profile (greater LFL involvement; less obscure) than the Minis stats.

So both stats used in the Plagueis/Bane comparison are outdated stats from an already unreliable source. The source is, again, your only link putting Bane’s era above the PT era.


Last edited by Darth Durin's Baneling on November 13th 2021, 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : formatting)
Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Asajj Ventress Post #1 Part 2

November 13th 2021, 7:57 pm

Ventress showcasing her undeniable superiority


Keeping up with Anakin/Kenobi


Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi in history with the greatest potential and growth of any.

Kenobi is his nigh equal.

Raskta does not have the hype, feats, or in-universe reason to be remotely comparable with either.

Yet Ventress is able to match Anakin’s growth remarkably well, and, on occasion, keep up with both him and his Master.

Clone Wars UK


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Here, Asajj takes on both Obi-Wan and Anakin, and holds them off with relative ease, making quips, before TKing both of them several meters towards the lava. This demonstrates not only her own parity, if not outright superiority, to the duo, but her ability to skillfully integrate TK into combat with enough power to send some of the Order’s most powerful Jedi flying. This is important for reasons I will get to later.

TCW Season 3




Here, Ventress, despite being injured from her ship crash, is able to hold her own against the Anakin and Kenobi duo once again. When she is angered, she is even able to tear away both their force walls at once and get them in a Force grip. This once again demonstrates her skill relative to the mid-war Anakin/Kenobi duo, and continues off of my previous point of her use of Force abilities mid-combat.

Dreadnoughts of Rendili


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Here, Asajj (mind you, she is still pre-prime here) enrages Anakin by threatening to kill Padme. He is visibly angered, and the juxtaposition with the dialogue regarding Quinlan makes it clear that he is veering towards the Dark Side here, giving him greater power and focus. Anakin in this state is comparable to him as he was on the Invisible Hand, yet Asajj manages to contend with him.

Obsession


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At her peak, she is ragdolling Kenobi merely 5 months pre-RotS; would have killed him two or three times if not for Anakin. She is confident that she has grown enough since her Coruscant fight that she could take on Anakin and win.

Keeping up with Mace Windu


As I mentioned earlier, Mace is more skilled than Agen, who scales far above Raskta.

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Ventress, three years pre-prime, gives Mace a great fight, blocking his initial strike with a smile and nearly catching him with her vicious counterattack. Although Mace ultimately proved her better, it is noted that Mace needed to use all his skills to take her on.

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Clone Wars UK


A year or two later, Asajj takes on Mace again.

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This time, they fight evenly, despite Ventress having one blade (noted to be better with both; should be pretty obvious in itself anyways) and the duel taking place above the Jedi temple, a powerful Light Side nexus.

Cloak of Deception wrote:Palpatine had been on Coruscant for several years, and he felt that he knew the place better than many lifelong residents did. He knew it the way a jungle cat knew its territory. He had an instinctual understanding of its shifting moods, and an instinctual feel for its power spots and dangerous zones. It was almost as if he could see the coiling blackness that inhabited the senate, and the refulgent light that poured from the spires of the Jedi Temple.

So Ventress by the mid-war was already superior to Mace, who scales far, far above Lsu. She only grows from there.

Keeping up with Kit Fisto


Kit Fisto also scales above Agen. Reinforcing her position as above that level, Asajj defeats Kit years before her peak.

The Cestus Deception wrote:Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair of blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly, lips curling into a smile.

Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair of blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly, lips curling into a smile.

"Finally," she said.

"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.

Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch such a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight.

He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and slaughter the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got in each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a breeze.

He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly-Kit was down! Wounded and groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard. Her left-hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove away from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right.

Obi-Wan heard the scream but couldn't see the wound's severity. Kit rolled as Ventress came at him, splashing down into the lake. Ventress stood on the dock smiling hugely, arms and legs spread in triumph, laughing in that arctic voice.

Raskta showcasing her undeniable inferiority


Sub Orbalisk Bane Trash


Raskta and Farfalla, her peer and arguable superior in an all-around combative sense, were both being amped by Worror Dowmat’s Battle Mind when they fought Darth Bane on Tython.

She is noted to be unable to land a hit on Bane’s exposed hands or face, and her seeming advantage was noted by the book itself to be superficial.

Rule of Two wrote:Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor... or so Farfalla thought.

Even with the help of two other Masters on her same level, she could not take Darth Bane alone, as evidenced by them requiring Johun Othone’s aid and ultimately losing the battle, despite Sarro Xaj winning against Zannah before they mucked up their fight against Bane.

Rule of Two wrote:He's too strong, Farfalla realized, even as he ran to help her. Both physically and in the power of the dark side. It's like trying to fight a force of nature.

"Johun! Sarro! We need reinforcements!"

And while the Temple did have some residual Dark Side energies, the effects of this are not emphasized in nearly the same way as the effects of Worror’s meditations are.

Rule of Two wrote:It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might. Yet even with their enhanced abilities, he wondered if they would survive the coming battle.

Orbalisk Bane < DoE Bane

Dynasty of Evil wrote:He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect.

Orbalisk Bane has been established as below Bane as he was in Dynasty of Evil, so Raskta is not only a stomp gap below Darth “the fodder” Bane, but a stomp gap below pre-prime Darth “the fodder” Bane, who is locked even farther under the Prequel era combatants.

No Force Barrier


Raskta has little to no defense against Force attacks. Despite her powers being amplified by Worror Dowmat’s Battle Mind, she needs Dowmat-amped Farfalla’s aid to keep her from having every bone in her body broken by Bane’s force push -- Bane, who I proved is below Ventress.

Rule of Two wrote:Raskta was already back on her feet and flying through the air toward him. Bane spun and threw a wave of invisible dark side power at her. A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks. The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. Even so her muscular body was plucked from the air and hurtled backward, though she twisted and turned so she landed on her feet.

Rule of Two wrote:Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

As I’ve established, Ventress is extremely adept in integrating telekinetic attacks into her fighting style, with enough power to push through Anakin’s barrier, which is so much stronger than Raskta’s that it really shouldn’t even bear comparison.

Neither Farfalla nor Dowmat are present to aid Raskta in this situation.

She dies.
Alz
Alz

SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

November 14th 2021, 4:50 am
great post
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SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch) Empty Re: SS - Asajj Ventress (Darth Durin's Baneling) vs Raskta Lsu (Primarch)

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