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Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Kueller Disrespect Thread Empty Kueller Disrespect Thread

September 2nd 2022, 7:30 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
This is a repost of an old argument of mine from the Top Fifteen Tournament in blog format. It has been updated slightly, but most of the content is identical to the original. Now, without further ado...

Kueller Disrespect Thread FUCK_KUELLER-removebg-preview

I. KUELLER DOES NOT SCALE TO EMPEROR PALPATINE


Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:She wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

In chapter 29 of The New Rebellion, Leia muses that Kueller "had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years." Given the mention and exclusion of Exar Kun, this statement probably extends up to the Jedi Academy trilogy. However, there is no indication it includes Dark Empire since that is earlier in the timeline. Leia even notes Kueller expressly doesn’t have more power than Exar Kun’s spirit, and since Palpatine is canonically more powerful than Kun, this quote cannot mean Kueller is above DE Palpatine.

Kueller Disrespect Thread Modern10

-- -- --

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

Luke notes Kueller’s power is unlike any "since he encountered the Emperor." One should be careful about the quote’s precise verbiage, however: he is not saying Kueller is as powerful as the Emperor, but that the Emperor possessed power that matched Kueller’s. There is a difference. The former expressly places the two as equals, whereas the latter contains the possibility that the Emperor is still greater than Kueller. Palpatine being able to match Kueller does not prevent him from exceeding Kueller also. It’s akin to saying “I haven’t felt a power like this since Darth Sidious” upon meeting Darth Maul - such a statement wouldn’t mean the two characters are equally strong.

-- -- --

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:She raised her head. She was stunning, he had to give her that, with her bright green eyes, and red, almost auburn, hair. A woman to respect. A woman that no one ever should tamper with. “I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he’ll do it quicker.

In chapter 46 of The New Rebellion, Mara Jade notes that she hasn’t felt power like Kueller’s "since Palpatine in the early days." This statement uses the same diction as Luke’s statement above, meaning that it doesn’t signify Kueller’s power matches that of Palpatine’s, merely that Palpatine’s power, even "in the early days," matched Kueller’s.

It should also be noted that Mara has no idea how powerful the Emperor actually was. It’s stated he grew more powerful over time, yet Mara states no one except the Emperor "in the early days," was as powerful as Kueller, meaning that she must never have sensed how powerful the Emperor became after "the early days."

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_became_more_powerful_after_ROTS

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_became_more_powerful_after_ROTS_2

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_power_increase_1

If the Emperor never revealed his full potency to Mara later on, then it calls into question whether he ever did. In fact, upon his dying moments, he implanted a vision in her head of Luke and Vader overpowering and killing him, and she fully believed the vision. This indicates she considers the Emperor’s power to be below the combined might of Luke and Vader. I know many here take George Lucas’s commentary to mean TPM Kenobi and TPM Maul are above ROTJ Vader and Luke, and even those who don’t tend to have Vader around TCW Maul and Dooku based on another quote from Lucas. Given the beatdown Sidious gave to Maul and Savage Opress, it should be apparent that Mara’s impression of the Emperor’s strength is nowhere near his actual power level.

Mara’s perception:

Kueller Disrespect Thread Maras_vision

Kueller Disrespect Thread Maras_vision_2

Star Wars: Dark Force Rising wrote:He stood before her, his face half hidden by the cowl of his robe, his yellow eyes piercingly bright as they gazed across the infinite distance between them. His lips moved, but his words were drowned out by the throaty hooting of alarms all around them, filling Mara with an urgency that was rapidly edging into panic. Between her and the Emperor two figures appeared: the dark, imposing image of Darth Vader, and the smaller black-clad figure of Luke Skywalker. They stood before the Emperor, facing each other, and ignited their lightsabers. The blades crossed, brilliant red-white against brilliant green-white, and they prepared for battle.

And then, without warning, the blades disengaged... and with twin roars of hatred audible even over the alarms, both turned and strode toward the Emperor.

Mara heard herself cry out as she struggled to rush to her master's aid. But the distance was too great, her body too sluggish. She screamed a challenge, trying to at least distract them. But neither Vader nor Skywalker seemed to hear her. They moved outward to flank the Emperor… and as they lifted their lightsabers high, she saw that the Emperor was gazing at her.

She looked back at him, wanting desperately to turn away from the coming disaster but unable to move. A thousand thoughts and emotions flooded in through that gaze, a glittering kaleidoscope of pain and fear and rage that spun far too fast for her to really absorb. The Emperor raised his hands, sending cascades of jagged blue-white lightning at his enemies. Both men staggered under the counterattack, and Mara watched with the sudden agonized hope that this time it might end differently. But no. Vader and Skywalker straightened; and with another roar of rage, they lifted their lightsabers high-

YOU WILL KILL LUKE SKYWALKER!

Reality:



This also serves as a counter to the very first quote from Leia. Mara believes Kueller’s power even toward the end of the novel is only a fraction of ROTS Sidious’s, so Leia most likely was not including DE Sidious in the number of people whose Force capability is lesser than Kueller’s. Even if she were, it would by no means be definitive since Mara contradicts her later on.

Addendum: Palpatine's Force presence has historically been notoriously opaque. His most famous showing is his concealment from the Jedi Order for decades during the prequel trilogy, but his enshrouding extended to adherents of the dark side as well, including his own minions. This furthers the likelihood of Mara being ignorant of her Master's true power.

Exhibit A: Upon casting his Force sight into the future, Darth Tenebrous perceives the scene of Darth Plagueis's demise with clarity, save for Sidious himself, who is only visible as "a smear of darkness." Passive exposure to Sidious's Force essence causes Tenebrous to lose his gift of foresight altogether, even though the two were separated by decades.

Star Wars Insider #130: The Tenebrous Way wrote:Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment, Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time—to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself only visible as a smear of darkness...

A shadow!

Exhibit B: 17-year-old, untrained Palpatine successfully conceals his Force-sensitivity from Darth Plagueis despite the Sith Lord's active efforts to probe his mind. Plagueis speculates that the Force was so strong in Palpatine that it naturally concealed itself. As an analogy, think of a star that bloats to such proportions it eventually collapses into a black hole. Sidious then later boasts he had been clouding Plagueis's mind for years without the latter realizing it.

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis wrote:They got up from the bench and began to amble back toward the university complex. Plagueis submerged himself deeply in the Force to study Palpatine, but he was unable to glean very much.

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis wrote:Again he tried to see deeper into Palpatine, but without success. The psychic walls the youth had raised were impenetrable, which made the young human something rare indeed. Had Palpatine somehow learned to corral the Force within himself, as Plagueis had concealed his own powers as a youth?

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis wrote:Palpatine’s fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis wrote:"You may be wondering: when did he begin to change? The truth is that I haven’t changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours. Never once did I have any intention of sharing power with you. I needed to learn from you; no more, no less. To learn all of your secrets, which I trusted you would eventually reveal. But what made you think that I would need you after that? Vanity, perhaps; your sense of self-importance. You’ve been nothing more than a pawn in a game played by a genuine Master.

“The Sith’ari.”

Exhibit C: Darth Maul characterizes Sidious as "a shadow," stating he was "cloaked so thickly in the dark side he was unknowable." Note that Maul had developed "an almost filial bond" with Sidious and whose relationship with him ran at least as deep as Mara's own.

Kueller Disrespect Thread Opaque_to_Maul

Exhibit D: Darth Tyranus views the persons of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and Palpatine through the dark side and, while he perceives Kenobi and Skywalker with clarity, Palpatine is "an event horizon" that shows "nothing of what might be within." Dooku, being Sidious's personal Sith apprentice, should likewise have a deep bond with his Master like Mara.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.

Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.

Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.

A black hole of the Force.

Exhibit E: The Emperor orchestrates an elaborate scheme to test Vader. He feigns that a mysterious, dark power is obscuring their senses, and that he came close to being assassinated. Vader fully buys into the Emperor's weakness and near-death experience, but at the end of the comic, it is revealed that the Emperor was the one fogging Vader's senses, a feat which he found "too easy." Note that Vader is perhaps the character with the longest and richest history with Palpatine, much more so that Mara's own.

Kueller Disrespect Thread HsiqEPArz9RF8ndGrQH7zA2fI80SVwsKRlkYrhnM7eF20mokiXt32Nh7s2Cp1fkWw5cLi_WByp2w86AkXC0AeDfjEvonPKG_TzVvO4YxphARYnMAOksljAoue0U9Fmd3o_pvTg=s1600?rhlupa=ODcuOTUuMTgwLjIzNw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNC4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2

Kueller Disrespect Thread HktbXr15GDGaEi5vldRe1f2oZytufXB0qwCum1CGMfdbQaBHicJnVD2HadQIvQdgIGcVBB5-dOa7b1wvFRaAR_17fFUdHk2AEJPDGpsBpvKX6TY8ejM6CXZBKIJ2GCODaxc5Gw=s1600?rhlupa=ODcuOTUuMTgwLjIzNw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNC4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2

Exhibit F: The Emperor's passive aura clouds the Force signatures of Galen Marek's allies. Marek muses that the Emperor casts "a shadow deep enough to hide anything." Simply supporting evidence.

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed wrote:Then, putting her out of his mind - as much as he was able - he chose between east and west at random and began looking for a way into the station. He could feel Master Kota and the others somewhere in the massive superstructure, but their Force-signatures were obscured by the presence of so much suffering. If the Emperor was there, too, that would further cloud the issue. The apprentice had never met his Master's Master in person, but the Sith Lord who had single-handedly wiped out nearly every Jedi in the galaxy would cast a shadow deep enough to hide anything.

II. MID-NOVEL KUELLER DOES NOT SCALE ABOVE GETHZERION OR JORUUS C’BAOTH


Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

Returning to this quote, it has been misconstrued as referring to the Emperor as of Return of the Jedi, but this is a logical impossibility. If this were ROTJ Palpatine, it would mean no being Luke had met until Kueller had emitted as much power as ROTJ Palpatine, including DE Palpatine. In effect, the interpretation that it refers to ROTJ Palpatine forces the scaling chain of ROTJ Palpatine >/= Kueller > DE Palpatine, which the lore contradicts. DE Palpatine > ROTJ Palpatine is one of the most often-repeated stances in the whole mythos:

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_became_more_powerful_after_ROTJ

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_became_more_powerful_after_ROTJ_2

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_became_more_powerful_after_ROTJ_3

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_became_more_powerful_after_ROTJ_4

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_became_more_powerful_after_ROTJ_5

Kueller Disrespect Thread Sheev_became_more_powerful_after_ROTJ_6

Therefore, the only interpretation is that Luke is referencing DE Palpatine. As such, the quote does not place Kueller above Gethzerion or Joruus C’baoth as Luke encountered them before the Reborn Emperor. The accolade only encompasses beings in between Dark Empire and The New Rebellion.

III. KUELLER DOES NOT SCALE TO NEW REPUBLIC ERA LUKE SKYWALKER


Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:She wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

In chapter 29 of The New Rebellion, Leia muses that Kueller "appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke." The word “appear” merely denotes that something seems to be the case, not that it actually is, so this accolade is by no means definitive. Moreover, as discussed above, Mara believes a much more powerful Kueller to only be a fraction of ROTS Sidious’s strength, so it’s likely that how Kueller appeared to Leia was a grossly inflated version of reality.

Also, in chapter 32, after Leia’s statement above, Luke and Kueller have their first fight. However, Luke was only operating at 10% of his power at most, which, considering that Darth Vader is 80% of Emperor Palpatine, is mind-bogglingly below his full strength. Despite this, Luke "held his ground" and blocked many attacks from Kueller, only losing because his injured ankle caused him to lose his balance. All in all, the fight isn’t unlike most in either length or intensity; even if you believe Kueller was his superior, Luke was evidently competing well. This completely dismantles Leia’s impression of Kueller’s power; far from being beyond peak Luke, he is in reality around only 10% of Luke’s power.

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:Slowly he limped his way down the stairs. He was stiff from the fall, his muscles aching with pain. The mistmakers had weakened his system; the burns and the fall had made him lose even more strength. If he was at ten percent of his normal power, he was high.

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:Slowly Kueller drew his lightsaber, the hiss filling the street. Its blade burned blue.

“I don’t want to fight you, Dolph,” Luke said.

“You won’t be fighting Dolph,” Kueller replied. He slashed at Luke. In one quick movement, Luke grabbed his lightsaber and blocked Kueller’s swipe with his own blade. The electric clang of the sabers filled the air, sending sparks all around them. Each movement ripped at Luke’s back, but he focused on the blade instead: parrying, defending, blocking, never really attacking. He would wait until Kueller was open before making his move.

Kueller hit at Luke’s left, then his right, then his heart. But Luke kept blocking. Kueller pushed Luke backward, toward the house. Luke stumbled on his weak leg, and collapsed on the knee. A river of pain ran through his thigh. Kueller brought his lightsaber down onto Luke’s shoulder, but Luke rolled away from it, his back burning as dirt from the road ground into his wounds.

He pushed himself up and swiped at Kueller, singeing his cape. The hum of lightsabers filled the air. Sweat ran down Luke’s face. His strength was gone. He had gone through too much in the last few days. But he concentrated on Kueller’s movements, lived for Kueller’s movements, blocked them, anticipated them, and held his ground.

In a series of five rapid thrusts, Kueller moved Luke backward again. Luke parried, parried, parried, but couldn’t keep his balance. His ankle was clearly broken and unable to support him. Kueller jabbed at Luke’s left side. Luke swiveled to dodge, and Kueller jabbed again. Luke’s ankle buckled, but he didn’t fall. Kueller pushed closer, and knocked Luke’s lightsaber from his hand.

Kueller held his blue blade beneath Luke’s chin. Luke could feel its heat, smell its electric tang.

Later on, Kueller and Luke have their second fight. Yes, it’s true that Kueller had grown more powerful since their last skirmish… but Kueller was literally only 10% of Luke’s full strength then. It is extremely unlikely Kueller could have bridged a 90% disparity in a matter of weeks when even a 20% disparity is equivalent to the gap between Vader and the Emperor. In the fight itself, Luke was still injured, meaning his power level is impossible to quantify in relation to his fresh self. Kueller was also noted to be amplified by his rage, which is credited as the ultimate reason for his victory over Luke. Without the rage amp, however, it is stated he would not have been a match for even Leia.

Kueller Disrespect Thread Kueller_sucks

CONCLUSION

Kueller is massively overhyped. During the middle of the novel, Kueller was only around 10% of 17 ABY Luke’s power; later on, Mara Jade believes a fraction of ROTS Sidious’s strength is equivalent to Kueller’s power; and even at his most powerful, Kueller is objectively said to not be a match for even Leia of all people without a rage boost.

BIBLIOGRAPHY:
  • Star Wars: Dark Empire #2 - Devastator of Worlds (Tom Veitch; 1992)
  • Star Wars: Dark Force Rising (Timothy Zahn; 1992)
  • Star Wars: Dark Empire Sourcebook (Michael Allen Horne; 1993)
  • Star Wars: The New Rebellion (Kristine Kathryn Rusch; 1996)
  • Star Wars: Dark Force Rising comic adaptation (Mike Baron; 1997)
  • Star Wars Handbook #3: Dark Empire (Peet Janes; 2000)
  • starwars.com databank (2001)
  • Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook (Bill Slavicsek, J. D. Wiker; 2001)
  • Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization (Matthew Stover; 2005)
  • Star Wars: Vader - The Ultimate Guide (Daniel Wallace, Abel G. Peña; 2005)
  • Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide (Ryder Windham; 2005)
  • Star Wars: The Force Unleashed novelization (Sean Williams; 2008)
  • Star Wars Insider #130: "The Tenebrous Way" (Matthew Stover; 2011)
  • Star Wars: Darth Plagueis (James Luceno; 2012)
  • Star Wars: Book of Sith - Secrets from the Dark Side (Daniel Wallace; 2012)
  • Star Wars: The Clone Wars - The Sith Hunters (Henry Gilroy, Steven Melching; 2012)
  • Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Season 5, Episode 16: "The Lawless" (Brian Kalin O'Connel; 2013)
  • Star Wars: Darth Vader and the Ninth Assassin #5 (Tim Siedell; 2013)


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