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Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on October 16th 2019, 4:20 am
All out, no prior knowledge, Kueller at the time of his death, Kyp around the same time period. The battle takes place in the ruins of Jedi Enclave on Dantooine.
IG
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on October 16th 2019, 7:24 am
Kueller stomps
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on October 16th 2019, 7:41 am
Kueller one shots.


Last edited by MasterCilghal on October 16th 2019, 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total
Jake
Jake

Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on October 16th 2019, 7:44 am
I’ll go with the guy whose power made him seem ‘invincible’ next to a rage-possessed 17 ABY Luke Skywalker.
Set, The God of Chaos
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on October 16th 2019, 11:23 am
KUELLER.
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EmperorCaedus
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on March 26th 2020, 11:12 pm
Kueller stomps.
IG
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 15th 2020, 9:20 pm
Kyp Wins this one.
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EmperorCaedus
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 15th 2020, 9:37 pm
@IG Based on?
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 15th 2020, 9:37 pm
@EmperorCaedus wrote:@IG Based on?
Comparing to Early NJO Luke and then growing from there on out.
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EmperorCaedus
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 15th 2020, 9:43 pm
Depending on the iteration of Kyp, it's well established that Kyp can't draw on the power he once wielded.

When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

So even if he was compared to Early NJO Luke, (which you didn't go into further detail) he'd still be post-prime, and is comparable to the likes of Kyle and Viun.
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 15th 2020, 9:46 pm
@EmperorCaedus wrote:Depending on the iteration of Kyp, it's well established that Kyp can't draw on the power he once wielded.

When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

So even if he was compared to Early NJO Luke, (which you didn't go into further detail) he'd still be post-prime, and is comparable to the likes of Kyle and Viun.
Have you read the novels? He never regresses. Like he outright says "I'm no weaker in the Force". It's the purpose for which he's doing it that prompts him not to hold back. 

And Kyp isn't comparable in the force to Kyle and Gaalan, only as a technical duelist.
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EmperorCaedus
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 15th 2020, 10:17 pm
Have you read the novels? He never regresses. Like he outright says "I'm no weaker in the Force". It's the purpose for which he's doing it that prompts him not to hold back. 

I never said he regressed in in the Force, I said that he can't draw on the power he once wielded. Either way, this translates to being exceptionally weaker than his former self. 

And Kyp isn't comparable in the force to Kyle and Gaalan, only as a technical duelist.

Kyp is compared to Kyle and Gaalan in overall combative viability, not technical dueling. 

He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. 

Gaalan being a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle does not mean that Gaalan is a match for Kyp or Kyle in only technical skill, because being a match for someone takes into account Force capablities as well. Being a swordsmaster doesn't mean that a "match" is just referencing pure technical skill. The context of this was mid-fight between Luke and Gaalan. It wouldn't make much sense for Luke to say "Wow, this guy is good! He is definitely a match for expert swordsmasters such as Kyp and Kyle... but only in technical skill though. In the Force, Kyp crushes!" Matches take into account one's entire skill set, including dueling, aug, and Force usage... not just technical skill.

On top of this, you haven't explained why Kyp is favorable against Kueller, who scales above BFC!Luke.
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Quorian Debatist

Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 16th 2020, 12:47 am
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
In the full context of the quote, they're trying to dissuade the government from turning Jacen into a Jedi Master. Luke says it's not a lack of power or skill, but rather a lack of mastery and emotions. Kyp then lies because they somehow overheard his private talks and basically states that although he's no weaker, his Jedi understanding would disallow him to retrieve a weapon to specifically kill star systems and murder his own brother accidentally. That Jacen lacks that inner voice that comes with a true emotional maturity that would stop him from doing rash moves and decisions. Basically saying that Kyp has a limitation on his Jedi powers that keep him from ever doing bad again, that makes him a true paragon of the Force, and he's explaining why that's different from power or skill.

It's not that he can't fully wield his power and is therefore out of his prime, it's that he can't use his powers for bad anymore. It's a built-in failsafe that Jacen lacks... which was proven correct.

Exile:
Chief Omas's voice was as controlled as ever, his manner as persuasive, but through the Force, Luke could sense that the man had no personal investment in this argument. Clearly, he had to be making this proposal at the request of others, perhaps repaying some favor owed to another politician, to one of Jacen's patrons. Luke took a quick look at Admiral Niathal, the highest-placed Galactic Alliance politician who was also a keen supporter of Jacen, but the Mon Cal was under control, offering no emotions for him to detect.

"Well, there's a problem." Luke glanced at his fellow Jedi. Mara was stone-faced, offering no expression for the politicians to read, though Luke could feel, through the Force-link that helped bind them together, her irritation with Omas. Kyp was slouched back in his chair, smiling faintly, and Luke thought he could detect that Kyp was enjoying himself hugely. "In my estimation, Jacen still lacks the emotional maturity he needs to be a Master."

Chief Omas gave him a doubtful look. "Many Jedi, in both the Old Republic and the modern era, became Masters at his age or younger."

Luke shrugged. "It's not a question of age."

"And," Omas continued, "he has demonstrated that he possesses skills and power that not even most confirmed Masters can match."

Mara sighed and finally leaned in to join the conversation. "It's not a matter of power, either. If power were the criterion you think it is, then any eight-year-old with a thermal detonator would be qualified to teach at the university level. Right?"

Opposite her, Admiral Niathal also leaned in, as if positioning herself like a Mon Cal cruiser to counter the Star Destroyer that Mara represented. She spoke in the gravelly tones common to Mon Calamari. "Perhaps power, age, and wisdom are not the only considerations here." Her bulbous eyes whipped around to focus on Mara and then Luke in turn. "If Jacen is a master of the Guard and a Master among the Jedi, it blurs the lines between those who have sworn to obey the government and those who merely acknowledge a vague duty and responsibility to the government. A distressing loss of personal authority for the Grand Master of the Jedi order. Not so?"

Luke let a little frost creep into his voice. "The duty I've acknowledged for forty years is anything but vague."

Niathal nodded. "Precisely. And so you have nothing to fear."

"And that's not the issue." Luke gave the admiral a small frown-a message that her effort to lead the conversation from the realm of logic into the realm of defensiveness would not succeed. "Jacen is not ready. He's making too many unfortunate choices. He needs guidance and is refusing to seek it."

"From you. I find that he is very receptive to my guidance."

Luke didn't answer. He let the silence between them stretch into long seconds.

Finally Niathal swiveled to look at Kyp. "Master Durron, I have it on good authority that you advocate elevating Jacen Solo to the rank of Master."

The purpose for Kyp's presence finally clicked for Luke. Months before, at a meeting of the Jedi Council, Kyp had proposed elevating Jacen to their rank. Obviously, word of that had somehow leaked out from those Council Chambers and reached the ears and tympanic membranes of Omas and Niathal, and Kyp had been brought in to reinforce their argument.

Kyp appeared startled, but Luke detected no genuine emotion of surprise from him. "I beg your pardon?"

Niathal stared at him. "You did propose that Jacen Solo be elevated."

Kyp nodded, a little uncertain. "In a manner of speaking."

Suspicion crept into Niathal's voice. "What manner?"

Kyp continued to look uncomfortable. "Well, clearly you're unfamiliar with the role of the taras-chi in Jedi Council debates."

"The taras..."

"...chi. Yes. A sort of ritualized debate opponent." Kyp glanced at Luke and Mara as if for confirmation. "In certain Jedi traditions, any discussion group, or its moderator, elects a taras-chi. The purpose of the taras-chi is to float ideas that run counter to the prevailing wisdom. This is so that all ideas will be tested ... sometimes to destruction. The idea that the taras-chi promotes is not the one being tested-the idea he promotes tests the idea currently under discussion. It's like a larva that only eats dead flesh. Place it on a wound, and it will only devour that which cannot survive anyway. Live flesh, like a solid idea or valid reasoning, will not be harmed by it." Kyp thought for a moment. "I suppose that the closest equivalents you have in the world of government would be court jesters or the free press."

Chief Omas and Admiral Niathal exchanged a look. Omas appeared mildly confused; Niathal's posture suggested she was irritated.

Omas cleared his throat. "I fail to see..."

"The discussion at that meeting," Kyp continued, "was about Jacen Solo's activities and whether they were appropriate for a Jedi. So in the spirit of the taras-chi, I not only spoke out in uncritical support of them, I proposed giving him the most lavish reward the Jedi can bestow. As a test of the principal item of discussion."

There was now a little chill in Niathal's voice. "So you're saying that you never supported Jacen Solo's elevation."

Kyp gave her a quizzical look. "I support the decisions of the Master of the order, Admiral. And let me give you a little example of how power and skill with the Jedi arts do not correspond to mastery.

"When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled ... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

Chief Omas and Niathal exchanged another look. Omas's face was serene, but it was clear from Niathal's body language that this portion of the meeting had not gone the way she'd wanted it to.

Omas tried again, catching Luke's eye. "Master Durron's story just goes to reinforce my point. He lacked the experience he needed-experience that would have compelled him to seek the advice of others. But Colonel Solo doesn't lack that experience. He comes to us for guidance. Please, Master Skywalker, don't mistake any anger you might feel that he hasn't consulted enough with you for suspicion about his wisdom and readiness."

Luke smiled, suddenly cheerful. "All right, I won't." As Niathal straightened, expectant, Luke added, "I'll continue to evaluate Jacen's progress as a Jedi, and the instant I find him to be ready for the rank of Master, you'll be the first one I inform."

"Ah." Omas sat back, but maintained a mask of polite cheer. "Please du."

Luke rose and nodded. "Thank you for seeing us. If there's nothing more, I don't want to take up more of your time."

"No, that was all." There was mock good humor in Omas's voice. "Thank you."

The Jedi were silent on the walk out of the office, on the turbolift down to the building's hangar level, and until Kyp's speeder carried them out of the Senate Building.

Mara broke the silence. "What is a taras-chi?"

Kyp smiled, showing teeth. "A bug in the mines of Kessel," he said. "Six legs under a hard round carapace about three centimeters in diameter. Properly roasted, they only tasted a little awful. When you could catch them, they offered a little nutrition, helped you starve more slowly."

Luke looked thoughtful. "Thanks for supporting me back there. Why'd you do it?"

"Luke..." Kyp stopped, shook his head. "No. Master Skywalker. I do think Jacen should be a Master, or I wouldn't have brought up the point at that meeting. But I'm all for showing solidarity, a united Jedi order, when this sort of thing happens. When cracks open and politicians get their fingers in them, bad things happen. Empires are formed. Also, I'm more than a little annoyed that they brought up my suggestion from that meeting-how did they find out, anyway?" He frowned. "Loose talk between Masters and apprentices around the Temple, probably."

"Probably," Mara said, but Luke could feel a trace of suspicion growing within her-as it was within him. Even if Kyp's opinions had been overheard in the halls of the Temple, someone, some Jedi, had to have passed them on to the government. Perhaps Jacen had done so himself.

Luke steered away from that line of thought, and from the even more distressing possibility that it had been Ben who had leaked the information.



That's assuming we even believe Kyp in the first place. He's basically portraying a Jedi Master as infallible which we know they're not. But it doesn't matter, it's not a ceiling on his power.


If we ignore the context of how he accomplished the initial feat like Kyp does, then he's basically saying he's no less powerful than Kyp on the Yavin focusing pyramids and getting amped by Kun. He then is powerful enough to rip a ship out of the gravity of a gas giant's core - which is absolutely immense forces that nothing in the Republic could enter - from hundreds of thousands of miles away. The only thing stopping him is the understanding that he's going to use it to murder millions of the remnants of the Empire, not actual power.

The only thing that changes with the real context, is that he would lack the focus to drive a ship out of a gas giant's core that he was going to use to immediately exterminate the Empire with. He would still be putting himself no less powerful than a severely amped younger Kyp (and vastly more skilled), just that he couldn't focus on driving it out due to his Darkside purposes.

Dark Apprentice wrote:Size matters not, Master Skywalker had repeated. Kyp engulfed the Sun Crusher with his mind, surrounding it, touching it with his limitless, invisible hands. He thought about heaving it back up, dragging the Sun Crusher out of the depths of Yavin. But he discarded that thought.

Instead, with the assistance of Exar Kun, he used his innate skill to power up the controls again, to move control levers, push buttons to alter the course stored in the Sun Crusher's memory, bringing it out of its entombment.

Kyp continued to watch the weapon's progress, focusing on the sphere of the enormous planet as it crested the misty treetops. The Sun Crusher appeared as a silvery dot, seeming no larger than an atom as it emerged from the highest cloud layers and streaked across space toward the emerald-green moon where Kyp waited.

He stared upward and waited, opening his arms to receive the indestructible weapon.

The Sun Crusher approached like a long, sharp thorn of crystalline alloy, cruising upright on its long axis. The toroidal resonance-torpedo launcher hung at the bottom of the long hook. It looked beautiful.

The Sun Crusher descended through the jungle moon's atmosphere, straight down--like a spike to impale the Great Temple. Kyp controlled it, slowed its descent, until the superweapon hovered to a stop, suspended in front of him.

As the sky brightened with planetrise, the alloy hull of the Sun Crusher seemed as pristine as a firefacet gem, scoured of all oxidation and debris by the intense temperatures and pressures at the core of Yavin. The Sun Crusher looked clean, and deadly, and ready for him.

"Thank you, Exar Kun," Kyp whispered.



He's powerful enough to do it still, but his conscious would stop him from moving levers to drive the ship out and destroy stars. Is that really a limitation on his powers in the heat of battle when the original feat was tied to his innate skill; of which he far surpasses?

Unless Kyp has to retrieve super weapons to murder stars, then I don't see why this quote is being used to kneecap later Kyps. If anything all it does is give him all his amped feats besides a refusal to use the Darkside.
Theron Shan
Theron Shan

Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 16th 2020, 10:14 am
Kueller got nothing on Kyp Durron. Not a fair match up imo.
Geistalt
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 16th 2020, 12:13 pm
@Theron Shan wrote:Kueller got nothing on Kyp Durron. Not a fair match up imo.
Whatever tickles your pickle
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

on April 17th 2020, 1:48 am
Unsure, solid match-up. Might lean ever-so-slightly toward Kyp on account of experience & likely greater mastery over his abilities.
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Kyp Durron vs Kueller Empty Re: Kyp Durron vs Kueller

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