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DarthAnt66
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Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Empty Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

August 28th 2022, 12:34 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

But wait, there's more!

(Credit to KingofBlades for first bringing up this idea)

Anakin's midi-chlorian reading is "off the charts" at "over 20,000." Yoda's official count is "approx. 20,000," indicating Yoda's level is the maximum reading. Obi-Wan thinks something must be wrong with the device to say Anakin has a higher count than Yoda, then he wonders if Anakin having a higher count than Yoda is even "possible." Qui-Gon is "staggered by the immensity of the discovery," and it is a key reason why Qui-Gon believes Anakin is the Chosen One. Several out-of-universe sources and in-universe testimonies also emphasize Anakin's midi-chlorian count being higher than Yoda's and that being "unprecedented." 

Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace script wrote:OBI-WAN : Strange. The transmission seems to be in good order, but the
reading's off the chart...over twenty thousand.
QUI-GON : (almost to himself) That's it then.
OBI-WAN : 
Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midi-chlorian count that high!

Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace adult novelization wrote:"Master," Obi-Wan interrupted his musings. "There must be something wrong with the sample."
Qui-Gon took a slow, deep breath and exhaled softly. "What do the readings say, Obi-Wan?"
"They say the midichlorian count is twenty thousand." The younger Jedi's voice tightened. "No one has a count that high. 
Not even Master Yoda."
No one. Qui-Gon stood staring out into the night, staggered by the immensity of his discover.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Using an analysis device in the starship, Obi-Wan had confirmed that the boy had a midichlorian count that was over 20,000 per cell, which was higher than Master Yoda's. Obi-Wan wondered how such a thing could be possible. Could the boy be stronger with the Force than Yoda?

Star Wars: Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:Anakin also learned about midi-chlorians, micro-pic life-forms found in all living things, which could determine the scope of a Jedi's powers. A blood test had determined that Anakin's body contained more midi-chlorians than any known Jedi, even the great Jedi Master Yoda, which led some Jedi to believe that he had the potential to become the most powerful Jedi ever.

Dooku - Darth Plagueis wrote:"Blood tests were apparently performed, and the boy's concentration of midi-chlorians is unprecedented." 

Soulcalliber IV wrote:Blood type: Unknown (Midi-chlorian Count: approx, 20,000)

Star Wars: Ultimate Visual Guide wrote:Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Official Star Wars Fact File #11 wrote:Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Official Star Wars Fact File #13 wrote:Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Star Wars: Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Hours after finding out about Anakin, Ki-Adi Mundi ventures to Tatooine to locate Sharad Hett. On his journey there, Ki-Adi displays an obsessive interest in midi-chlorians, reflects in shock that someone so potentially powerful could have lived on Tatooine without him knowing, and is forewarned by the Dark Woman that something comically significant awaits him there. Ki-Adi locates Sharad Hett and meets his son A'Sharad Hett, who he then takes as his Jedi Padawan. I submit that it is overwhelmingly likely that A'Sharad Hett's midi-chlorian count is tested given testing precedent and his master's explicit fascination with midi-chlorians and Tatooine-born Jedi prodigies. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon even say "no one" has a count higher than "over 20,000," revealing a confidence that all Jedi are tested. (It also follows that if Hett displayed Yoda-tier Force prodigiousness, he would certainly have been tested at some point.) A'Sharad Hett's midi-chlorian count must be less than Yoda's; otherwise, the whole Order would have been in pandemonium at the discovery of another Chosen One candidate, and Hett would have attracted the attention of Palpatine. Instead, Hett's Jedi career was relatively unexceptional, still not ascending to the Jedi Council even by the age of 38. 

Ki Adi-Mundi - Star Wars: Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown
Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Some quick quotes about midi-chlorians:

- Midi-chlorians are "possibly the most effective way to detect a potential Jedi" (Official Star Wars Fact File #3).
- George Lucas says that Palpatine believes that Anakin can become "more powerful than he is" "because" "he knows that he has a high midi-chlorian count" (Star Wars Archives: Episodes I–III, 1999–2005). 
- Midi-chlorians are "the connectors to the Force itself" (The Phantom Menace adult novelization, line-edited by George Lucas).
- "The more midi-chlorians inhabiting a being's cells, the more the being was able to connect to the Force." (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia).

Official Star Wars Fact File #3 wrote:Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Star Wars Archives: Episodes I–III, 1999–200 wrote:Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

That is to say, midi-chlorian count and Force potential are almost 1:1 linked and that position is deeply George Lucas-endorsed. Exceptions exist that a Force user with a high midi-chlorian count can still lack Force talents, but they are exceptions for a reason -- they are not the rule, not the general trend, not the more likely result. And saying Yoda of all Jedi is likely an exception is... quite suspect. Recall that even Lucas' intentions are absolute, and Lucas personally decided to make Yoda's midi-chlorian count the second highest to Anakin's on record. The notion that Lucas did this despite believing Yoda's midi-chlorian count is uniquely unreflective of his power is... again, quite suspect.

Even midi-chlorians aside, after Order 66, Palpatine knows that Hett still lives (as reported to him by Moff Wessel) but is never shown to show special interest in him despite desperately searching for a replacement for the shattered Darth Vader. Likewise, Obi-Wan and Yoda know that Hett still lives but believe Luke and Leia are the only beings in the galaxy with the potential power to defeat Darth Vader (they themselves are out of the running, now explicitly being old and broken, even per Lucas). Not a glowing review of Hett's Force potential, exactly.

Star Wars Archives, 1977-1983 wrote:Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda IMG_4767

(Credit to Syndicate for the scan)

The question then becomes: did Yoda actualize most/all of his Force potential? Yoda had over eight-hundred years to do so. And he all spent that time in deep meditation (becoming the "wisest man in the universe"), on the battlefield (becoming the Order's greatest known swordsman), or training tens of thousands of Jedi (with many sources saying Jedi learn the most through teaching students). Indeed, the Force Priestesses are said to teach Yoda "all he does not know about the Force," indicating he's effectively maxed out. 

And so Darth Krayt should be bound beneath Yoda -- especially the Krayt that fights Abeloth in Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse. Krayt is a fourth-rate Jedi prodigy who becomes as powerful as he possibly can. Yoda is the gatekeeper for midi-chlorian scanning devices and Chosen One candidates and becomes as powerful as he possibly can. Notice the difference? 
Master Azronger
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Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Empty Re: Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

August 28th 2022, 2:40 am
This is something I've thought of in my own assessment of Krayt as well. To steelman your case, it's likely Dooku’s natural potential in the Force comfortably surpassed A’Sharad Hett’s as well. Apart from Ki-Adi-Mundi’s simple remark that his "Force powers are great" or Fact File #37 extolling his lineage's strength in the Force, I’m unaware of any significant praise Hett received from notable names. By contrast, Dooku’s connection to the Force was “enigmatic” to Yoda (Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary), who lauded him with accolades like “the strongest student,” “best of all,” and “most learned in the ways of the Force” well into the Clone Wars. Indeed, Dooku has been identified as “a unique case” in Jedi history who, had he not departed the Order to join the Sith, would have one day been a Jedi on par with the Grand Master (Insider #113). Most damningly, as of 19 BBY, well after Hett’s initiation into the Jedi, Dooku was still “the Order’s most gifted student” apart from Anakin Skywalker.

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Dooku_11

Star Wars: Yoda - Dark Rendezvous wrote:"Let's be honest. Not every pairing of Jedi Knight and Padawan will be Obi-Wan and Anakin, granted, but the truth is we are at war. To send a Jedi into battle with a Padawan who cannot be trusted to hold her own is to needlessly risk two lives-lives the Republic cannot afford to throw away."

"The Force is not as strong in Scout as it should be," Ilena agreed. "But I've had her in my classes for years. Her technique is good. She is smart and she is loyal. She tries."

"There is no try," Master Maruk said, unconsciously letting his voice slip into the Yoda imitation for which, a lifetime ago, he had been famous among the young boys of the Jedi Temple. "There is only do."

The other three Jedi in the room glanced guiltily at Yoda. He snorted, but laugh lines crinkled around his eyes. "Mm. Thinking of students, I am. Best then I should go to battle with him in whom the Force is strongest, hmm? With young Skywalker; think you?"

"He's not polished," Ilena said.

"And too impulsive," Mace added.

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."

Star Wars: Yoda - Dark Rendezvous wrote:On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced. The lightsaber was still attached to a hand. The hand was soot black and rimed with frost; it ended in a gory stump of frozen blood just above the wrist. Dooku was in his study, a place for reflection, and the severed hand hardly struck the contemplative note. Besides which, as hard as it had frozen in the bitter vacuum of space, it would be thawing out in a hurry now. If he wasn't careful, it would leave a stain on the tiles. Not a good thing, even though one more bloodstain on the floor of Chateau Malreaux would hardly be noticed.

Palpatine, too, appears to have a deeper innate connection to the Force, being speculated by Darth Plagueis to have been "sprung from nature itself" as opposed to having inherited his power from any biological pairing. Indeed, Darth Sidious is the culmination of a thousand-year-old lineage whose weakest member has accolades about his Force potential that I don't think Hett can match, and also the "fulfillment" of a prophecy by the Sith of a destined avenger who would usurp the Jedi and restore the Sith to glory (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia), effectively the Sith's equivalent of the Chosen One prophecy. Moreover, it's stated "Sidious does not expect Tyranus's powers to eclipse his own," (Beware the Sith) all but confirming Hett's inferiority to Palpatine in terms of natural Force potential.

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Screenshot_20220828_085520

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Dooku_is_inferior_to_Sidious

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis wrote:All the while Plagueis spoke, Palpatine was storming through circles on the narrow path, shaking his head in anger and balling his fists. "He can't do this!" he snarled. "He hasn't the right! I won't allow it!"

Palpatine's fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis wrote:He could see Palpatine now in all his dark glory. Anger and murder had pulled down the walls he had raised perhaps since infancy to safeguard his secret. But there was no concealing it now: the Force was powerful in him! Bottled up for seventeen standard years, his innate power had finally burst forth and could never again be stoppered. All the years of repression, guiltless crimes, raw emotion bubbling forth, toxic to any who dared touch or taste it. But beneath his anger lurked a subtle enemy: apprehension. Newly reborn, he was at great risk. But only because he didn't realize just how powerful he was or how extraordinarily powerful he could become. He would need help to complete his self-destruction. He would need help rebuilding those walls, to keep from being discovered.

Oh, what a cautious taming he would require! Plagueis thought. But what an ally he might make. What an ally!

-- -- --

DarthAnt66 wrote:And so Darth Krayt should be bound beneath Yoda -- especially the Krayt that fights Abeloth in Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse. Krayt is a fourth-rate Jedi prodigy who becomes as powerful as he possibly can. Yoda is the gatekeeper for midi-chlorian scanning devices and Chosen One candidates and becomes as powerful as he possibly can. Notice the difference?

This where our lines of thought part ways, however. Palpatine himself is a prime example of this, but it's possible for a being's Force essence to surpass their biological Force potential, to effectively go beyond their body's limits. Although not explicitly confirmed, I've long suspected this was the case with Krayt, who stated that "nothing of flesh and blood lasts" in reference to his own body, but who was capable of restoring his anorexic and shriveled body to full health through dark transfer, in the process regenerating his lost arm - unprecedented feats of Force healing, at least as far as the results go, to my knowledge. Furthermore, Krayt's disembodied spirit was able to keep his empty corpse as "undying," which contradicts what we learn from Plagueis and Tenebrous, that midi-chlorians prepare to be subsumed into the Force before the moment of death even comes, and that they will gradually vanish in tandem with their host dying, rendering the corpse an insufficient vessel for a spirit to inhabit if too long a time has passed. Taking these feats at face value, one would be lead to believe Krayt has seemingly attained immortality, capable of regenerating his body infinitely with dark transfer as it deterioriates - were it not for Krayt himself contradicting this.

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Screenshot_20220828_093522

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Screenshot_20220828_093635

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Screenshot_20220828_093733

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Let me therefore offer this reconciliation to those who believe Darth Krayt's feat in Apocalypse to be an outlier and vastly out of proportion to his feats in Legacy, and/or who consider his performances against Cade Skywalker and Darth Wyyrlok III, respectively, to be lacking: Krayt's body is only capable of channeling a set amount of Force energy through it, but the totality of his Force essence is much greater. He would only be able to bring his full combative might to bear beyond shadows where the constraints of the physical world aren't a factor and Force-users by default manifest their purest and truest self, which explains the contrast in his fight against Abeloth with his other fights, how he's somehow still going to die to aging despite his tremendous self-healing powers, and how he can be credited with and demonstrate all the cosmic stuff he has and does but fall short in an actual lightsaber duel.

This is basically how I view Krayt as a whole, even if I have a more favorable opinion on his performances against Cade and Wyyrlok than you. Maybe ILS could offer something of his own, though.
DarthAnt66
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Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Empty Re: Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

August 28th 2022, 1:59 pm
Good post, but I can't say I agree to all of it. 

Through his unlimited will and rage, Palpatine invokes more dark side power "than his body is conditioned to handle." This causes his "insides to burn," his cells to weaken and crumble. "Age and decay hasten," and his flesh "withers" and "collapses towards ruin." 

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:But early on, Palpatine learned that addiction to the fathomless energies of the Dark Side carried a great price: age and decay hastened their pace, and his body collapsed toward ruin, like a world oppressed.

Dark Empire Saga wrote:Palpatine had become such a creature of the dark side that its powers consumed him. It constantly fed at his core and withered his flesh. The very power that cemented his rule over the galaxy threatened his life, and so he ingeniously turned to technology to cheat death.

Palpatine - Dark Empire wrote:"Long ago I found my flesh could not withstand the awesome demands of the dark side... The great Emperor Palpatine discovered he was dying. My body was literally consumed by the energies I had released."

Dark Nest: Joiner King wrote:Luke continued to maintain both illusions, the Force pouring through him like fire, burning more fiercely every moment. He was drawing more energy than his body was conditioned to endure, literally burning himself up from the inside. It was not really a dark side act-to a modern Jedi, the dark side was more a matter of intent than deed-but it felt that way to him. According to Mara, this was what happened to Palpatine, and Luke believed her. He could feel himself aging-his cells weakening, the membranes growing thin and the cytoplasm simmering, the nuclei coming apart.

Luke started to rise - then caught a glimpse of himself in the mirrored section of canopy. His face was puffy and wrinkled, his skin sallow and dry, his eyes sunken and baggy and rimmed in red. He was starting to look like Palpatine.

Star Wars Databank wrote:No one is quite sure how Palpatine was first introduced to the power of the dark side, or how he came to be Darth Plagueis' apprentice. He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times. He studied the ancient ruins on the Sith mausoleum world of Korriban. He unlocked secrets of the Force from a captured Jedi Holocron. The dark side energies flowing through Palpatine's body were so intense, that they ravaged his mortal frame. The very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him.

To counter the dark side's consumption, Palpatine turned to a bizarre combination of technology and Sith magic. Palpatine used Spaarti cloning cylinders to create a store of younger bodies, and employed an ancient Sith technique to transfer his consciousness into a waiting clone. Thus, Palpatine could avoid death indefinitely -- as long as his supply of clones remained intact. He would change his form again and again, prolonging his life. Palpatine constructed a secret throne-world deep within the galaxy's core, on a shadowy world called Byss. Here, he kept his clones safe, protected by a loyal cadre of Dark Side Adepts.

Palpatine's design is specifically said to elicit the feeling of "ancient, not old." He looks far, far older than his actual age of 88 years old. 

Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:Our intention was to create through makeup an age wrinkled face with a large split cranium that was beginning to grow apart. We felt the Emperor should be ancient, not old, so the quality of the wrinkle was important. The enlarged skull was a foam latex appliance that carefully joined the actor’s face. Black and rotting teeth added an extra wild quality that we hoped would enhance the Emperor’s treacherous dialogue. We felt he should have both a detached look and a piercing stare. Eyes being the windows of the soul, we were required to use contact lenses.”

To stave off this bodily collapse, Palpatine is forced to draw on even more dark side power to impose his will upon his body -- the trap of the dark side. 

(Here's just one quote for this, but you know these quotes better than I do.)

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

---

Darth Krayt is not doing the same. The proof is in the flesh. Were Krayt drawing enormously beyond his bodily limits to make his spirit enormously powerful, we should see the effects first-hand. Krayt's body should be ruined, his mortal frame ravaged. But it's not. All descriptions of Krayt suggest he's actually relatively youthful: 

Luke Skywalker - Legacy of the Force: Betrayal wrote:"What little of his face I can see reminds me of the features of Anakin Skywalker as a Jedi. But his eyes . . . as I watch, they turn a molten gold or orange, transforming from Force-use and anger . . "

Luke Skywalker - Legacy of the Force: Betrayal wrote:But something in this being's posture reminded Luke of the image from his dream, and caused him to wonder if the watcher had features similar to long-dead Anakin Skywalker, with eyes turned a liquid yellow by anger and Sith techniques.

Fate of the Jedi - Apocalypse wrote:Luke glanced back at Mara, then said, "It's him."
"Who?"
"The man I kept seeing in my dreams, before Jacen turned Sith."
Mara looked confused. "But the man in your dreams was Jacen."
"I thought so," Luke replied. "Who else could it have been?"

Fate of the Jedi - Apocalypse wrote:Luke studied the stranger without answering for a moment, trying to imagine him without the scowl. The man was hardly ugly, but he certainly did not share the Lost Tribe's usual obsession with careful grooming and good looks. And the tattoos were unusual, too. Vestara had claimed that while the Lost Tribe enjoyed painting their bodies with decorative vor'shandi markings, they would never defile themselves with permanent ink. Of course, she might have been lying-it certainly wouldn't have been the only time-but Luke couldn't see how that would have benefited her.

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda UnknownDissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

Krayt during the time of his Abeloth fight looks a lot like 22 year old Anakin (said to be incredibly handsome), is mistaken for 31 year old Jacen Solo (said to be incredibly handsome), and is explicitly not ugly. Even a hundred years later, Krayt still looks far better than Palpatine did! 

Palpatine's creeping bodily collapse is his greatest obstacle. Like I said, this dynamic is ubiquitous in descriptions of Palpatine, what he spends most of his time looking into, and is a central reason for his movement into general and the whole Dark Empire narrative. Krayt is never once said to suffer similiar inflictions. Instead, it's repeated ad nauseam that Krayt's problem is specifically the Yuuzhan Vong implants. We should believe what the text tells and shows us. 

---

With respect to the Legacy: War ending, may I propose two alternatives:

- Krayt is doing what he did before, thrusting his spirit deep within his body with the hope he can slowly revive it and/or transfer into Cade. Fits the precedent. And it's consistent with Krayt's spirit saying, "If you had truly wanted me dead, you would cut off my head." 

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda UnknownDissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

- Krayt's spirit is doing what Andeddu and Revan do, with Krayt even saying he's learned essence transfer from Andeddu. That is, Krayt's spirit tethers to his corpse, with this act seemingly/demonstrably preventing midi-chlorians from subsuming into the Force, hence why Revan and Andeddu can continue to be powerful despite being walking corpses. 

That is to say, I don't see any reason to believe that Krayt's spirit is actually disembodied. And that certainly shouldn't be the default assumption when it's explicitly the exception rather than the rule -- an exception only demonstrated by or attributed to Palpatine, Valkorion, and Exar Kun after the Massassi ritual.

---

You definitely propose interesting ideas, though. That Krayt's full power can only be expressed Beyond the Shadows. That Krayt's Dark Transfer still clearly has limits -- eventually his body will collapse and he will need to transfer into Cade, showing that he can't just passively regenerate himself (in contrast to how Palpatine can with the Dyad in Episode 9). But I can't help but feel it's kind of a cope to justify a very controversial take on the Beyond the Shadows performance.
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Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Empty Re: Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

August 28th 2022, 3:40 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Special credit to @KingofBlades, for resurrecting and advancing this argument when everyone else had turned the other way.
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Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Empty Re: Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

August 28th 2022, 5:21 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:
Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:But early on, Palpatine learned that addiction to the fathomless energies of the Dark Side carried a great price: age and decay hastened their pace, and his body collapsed toward ruin, like a world oppressed.

This quote is from the endnotes of the second issue of Dark Empire, not The Dark Side Sourcebook.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Darth Krayt is not doing the same. The proof is in the flesh. Were Krayt drawing enormously beyond his bodily limits to make his spirit enormously powerful, we should see the effects first-hand. Krayt's body should be ruined, his mortal frame ravaged. But it's not. All descriptions of Krayt suggest he's actually relatively youthful:

Krayt during the time of his Abeloth fight looks a lot like 22 year old Anakin (said to be incredibly handsome), is mistaken for 31 year old Jacen Solo (said to be incredibly handsome), and is explicitly not ugly. Even a hundred years later, Krayt still looks far better than Palpatine did!

The difference is that Krayt spent extensive periods in stasis whose benefits he coupled with Sith meditation techniques - why else do you think Krayt appears to be 20-30 at 91 years old? Palpatine never had that luxury, working tirelessly as Supreme Chancellor for 13 years and getting two hours of sleep per day at most, all the while the dark side ravaged his mortal frame. It's no wonder he looked the way he did in ROTS.

Furthermore, it's implied - at least by my reading of the wording "I needed long years [...] to allow my body to heal" - that Krayt was actually successful in reversing the coral seeds' effects up to a point, so something must have happened for him to have lost control of the situation despite his increasing command of the dark side. I postulate it was that very thing: he became too powerful for his body to withstand and thus had two sources of corruption to contend with. It proved too much to handle at once and the coral seeds began to spread again.

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

DarthAnt66 wrote:Palpatine's creeping bodily collapse is his greatest obstacle. Like I said, this dynamic is ubiquitous in descriptions of Palpatine, what he spends most of his time looking into, and is a central reason for his movement into general and the whole Dark Empire narrative. Krayt is never once said to suffer similiar inflictions. Instead, it's repeated ad nauseam that Krayt's problem is specifically the Yuuzhan Vong implants. We should believe what the text tells and shows us.

I'm well aware that Krayt sharing Palpatine's affliction is not expressly stated in the material - but that goes for plenty of our theories about Star Wars characters and Force mechanics in general. The thing is that Krayt's feats are what they are, and to me they peg him beyond the caliber of the ROTS titans by a significant margin. Seeing as they create conflict with what limits his body should impose on him, I've come up with an explanation to reconcile the differences like is the norm in our community. You might rebut that I'm simply misinterpreting said feats and needlessly complicating matters with a theory that has no explicit foundation in the text, but that alone is not going to convince me that I'm wrong about Krayt's feats. When I look at them, my honest impression and thought-out opinion is what it is, which, I would wager, is exactly how you also feel about many of your deeply-entrenched beliefs, including your opposition to my theory here: that when the text is examined as thoroughly as possible to the best of your ability, and all angles you can think of have been considered, the conclusion you come to must absolutely, positively, be the truth (to the extent it can be in this hobby; I'm using the term loosely).

I doubt either of us is going to sway the other here. I have neither the time nor the interest to discuss Krayt's feats at length right now. I simply chimed in with my two cents on what I thought of your blog, how it could be strengthened and where our perspectives diverge.

DarthAnt66 wrote:With respect to the Legacy: War ending, may I propose two alternatives:

- Krayt is doing what he did before, thrusting his spirit deep within his body with the hope he can slowly revive it and/or transfer into Cade. Fits the precedent. And it's consistent with Krayt's spirit saying, "If you had truly wanted me dead, you would cut off my head." 

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda UnknownDissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

- Krayt's spirit is doing what Andeddu and Revan do, with Krayt even saying he's learned essence transfer from Andeddu. That is, Krayt's spirit tethers to his corpse, with this act seemingly/demonstrably preventing midi-chlorians from subsuming into the Force, hence why Revan and Andeddu can continue to be powerful despite being walking corpses. 

That is to say, I don't see any reason to believe that Krayt's spirit is actually disembodied. And that certainly shouldn't be the default assumption when it's explicitly the exception rather than the rule -- an exception only demonstrated by or attributed to Palpatine, Valkorion, and Exar Kun after the Massassi ritual.

I did not mean to suggest Krayt existed in an anchorless state like Palpatine - after all, Coruscant at this point in time is a dark side nexus, and they were on the premises of the Sith Temple. But the point still stands that Krayt's body was "undying" despite sporting a gaping hole in its chest; Krayt stopped all processes of death and kept his body in a state of "lasting forever" (Oxford Languages) and would likely have restored it to full health again. Contrast this with him stating that "nothing of flesh and blood lasts" while still inhabiting it, and you see the contradiction: it's a fact that Krayt's regenerative powers were so strong he could revivify his whole body from utterly anorexic and shriveled to muscular and robust, it's a fact that he could regrow an entire missing limb, and it's a fact that he made his stone cold, lifeless body immortal and was going to repair all damage and resurrect it again after his spirit was expunged from it. So, to my mind anyway, it reasonably follows that Krayt's Force essence was too powerful for his body to endure, so powerful that its deteriorating effects would outpace even the immortality-granting healing factor of dark transfer. It would explain all these discrepancies.

PS. Unrelated, but where is Valkorion credited with the capability to subsist as a spirit without an anchor? Or Exar Kun after the ritual - after a bit of research, I'm unconvinced he could do it.

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lorenzo.r.2nd
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Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Empty Re: Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

August 29th 2022, 11:21 am
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Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Empty Re: Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

August 29th 2022, 4:06 pm
I simply chimed in with my two cents on what I thought of your blog, how it could be strengthened and where our perspectives diverge.

Which is obviously always welcomed.  Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda 1289255181

But, like I said, the lack of tell-tale necessary dark side corruption indicators is why I'm sticking with my take.

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"I should not have survived what the Vong did to me - I needed long years of stasis to allow my body to heal."

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown
Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown
Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown
Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown
Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

The first thing the Yuuzhan Vong did to Krayt was implant him with the coral seeds. They then subjected him to "an endless state of pain dominated by experiments by the Shaper caste." Krayt saying he should not have survived but needed to heal is likely in reference to all those horrors. The coral seed threat grew over time

The coral seed growth rate also likely isn't linear. And instances of exertion further hasten the rate of decay. It follows Krayt could better repulse its effects at the beginning than as time passed and Krayt did other things. E.g., Defeating the Fel Empire is emphasized to have left Krayt "badly fatigued" (TCSWE).  

I postulate it was that very thing: he became too powerful for his body to withstand and thus had two sources of corruption to contend with. It proved too much to handle at once and the coral seeds began to spread again.

We can directly see that Krayt isn't suffering from any significant dark side degradation. Krayt is not yet in a position where he has to expend lavish amounts of power "to avoid having his body consumed by his own corruption." He's years, years away from that, even during the Legacy timeline. What is he supposed to be contending with?

It would explain all these discrepancies.

Or Krayt's Dark Transfer simply cannot reverse aging? A much simpler theory that is directly supported by the fact Krayt is not any younger in War. And this is consistent with de-aging being the final step of Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation journey, achieved distinctively after he's able to heal injuries.

BTW, I don't think Krayt's Dark Transfer has shown arm regeneration. 

Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown
Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknown

The Yuuzhan Vong-implanted arm looks like a replica of a human arm. It just seems he purged that one of the coral seeds.

(Alternatively, even going with your theory, Krayt could simply be planning to amass greater power and outstrip his sub-Dooku Force potential. And so Krayt anticipating his eventual bodily collapse and the need to essence transfer into Cade to better harness that power also works perfectly well.)

I'm well aware that Krayt sharing Palpatine's affliction is not expressly stated in the material - but that goes for plenty of our theories about Star Wars characters and Force mechanics in general. The thing is that Krayt's feats are what they are, and to me they peg him beyond the caliber of the ROTS titans by a significant margin. Seeing as they create conflict with what limits his body should impose on him, I've come up with an explanation to reconcile the differences like is the norm in our community. You might rebut that I'm simply misinterpreting said feats and needlessly complicating matters with a theory that has no explicit foundation in the text, but that alone is not going to convince me that I'm wrong about Krayt's feats. When I look at them, my honest impression and thought-out opinion is what it is, which, I would wager, is exactly how you also feel about many of your deeply-entrenched beliefs, including your opposition to my theory here: that when the text is examined as thoroughly as possible to the best of your ability, and all angles you can think of have been considered, the conclusion you come to must absolutely, positively, be the truth (to the extent it can be in this hobby; I'm using the term loosely).

I actually do disagree with that logic. You seem to agree that in a vacuum, the likelihood of your Force potential theory is not high. It's not stated, it's not readily apparent, and there's even counter-evidence and general precedent working against it. You need to look at both your confidence in Krayt's feats and your confidence in the Force potential theory. If you're even mildly on the fence about Krayt's feats, my Force potential argument should push you firmly to my camp.

PS. Unrelated, but where is Valkorion credited with the capability to subsist as a spirit without an anchor? 

"Tenebrae is being remade -- I can feel it. You must intervene, before it's too late."
"It would be simpler to destroy the entire ship." 
"Even that may not end the threat. You must destroy his very essence, not just the flesh he is attempting to steal."

Revan says blowing up the ship and hosts Tenebrae is tethered to and leaving his spirit to the vacuum may not destroy him and that they "must" destroy his spirit directly. 

Or Exar Kun after the ritual - after a bit of research, I'm unconvinced he could do it.


Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda UnknownDissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Unknow53

Kun becomes an "all-powerful spirit" that has "shed the chains of his mortal body" and can "run rampant throughout the cosmos."
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Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda Empty Re: Dissecting Legacy #4: Darth Krayt vs Yoda

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