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Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Empty Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series

August 23rd 2022, 3:08 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Table of Contents


  • Part 1 - New Krayt Feat, thanks Ant!
  • Part 2 - An Argument Turned To Rubble
  • Part 3 - The Obsession With Talon
  • Part 4 - Omega Red? Omega Cringe
  • Part 5 - Conclusion


Part 1 - New Krayt Feat, thanks Ant!


DarthAnt66 wrote:Force lightning is shown to ripple between Krayt and Wyyrlok. It is unclear who is firing. It has commonly been suggested that only Wyyrlok is firing and that Krayt is using tutaminis to absorb the energy.

Actually, that’s not accurate, as far as I know. The common interpretation has been that Krayt deflected Wyyrlok’s Lightning into the pillars - he didn’t absorb it. The difference is best shown with Yoda and Dooku:
https://youtu.be/wg1ydN42ukY?t=60

Yoda absorbs, Dooku deflects.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Krayt, now using two hands, channels lightning to break two columns. Again, its unclear who's lightning that is, but its notable that Krayt's entire torso is shown to be crackling with the lightning. No precedent of this ever happening with tutaminis... but it's happened with lightning.

Well, actually, there is. In Star Wars (1998) #35 (also by Jan) Volfe Karkko has his whole body lit up with Force Lightning, as he seemingly absorbs it and then fires it back at Quinlan.

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Something similar happens in the Plagueis novel as a matter of curiosity; Plagueis absorbs the energy of blaster bolts via his palm, the energy travels across his chest and then he transmutes it into lightning.
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“Tutaminis, or energy absorption, is the ability to channel or diffuse potentially harmful radiation.”
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Diffuse means:

“To cause to spread out freely.”

Channelling energy would be akin to what Yoda, Plagueis or Volfe Karkko did; diffusing would be akin to what Dooku did.

It’s usually done via an outstretched palm, but this is by convention rather than necessity. As we’ve seen, Karkko and Plagueis absorb energy into their chests and then transmute that energy into their own Force lightning. In Jedi Path, tutaminis can be used to shield the skin from the radiation of the sun, and this is treated as being same in kind to deflecting a blaster bolt.

As for Krayt’s torso being enveloped in Lightning: your scan of Cade using Dark Transfer is good to include here because Cade is using Dark Transfer there which, as the name suggests, involves Cade transferring energy from his body into the body of another.
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Tutaminis, like Dark Transfer, is part of the “Control” branch of Force abilities as it involves channelling energy through one’s body.
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Force Lightning is also part of Control, as it involves channelling energy through one’s body, and in Book of Sith (the counterpart to Jedi Path), it falls under “Body” which roughly corresponds to the Jedi school of “Control” powers.
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Your scan of Celeste is a bit less relevant as we can clearly see her torso, where visible, isn’t enveloped in Force energy. There is just some around her head.
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This is because more often than not Lightning is produced from the fingertips/hands/arms and not the chest.
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In particular note in this panel none of Celeste’s torso is enveloped in lightning.
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Just to drive the point home, in Dawn of the Jedi, Xesh channels a Force Storm at its nexus, his body enveloped in the energy.
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Dawn of the Jedi being written/drawn by none other than…
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That would suggest that this is, indeed, a use of Tutaminis:
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So, if we know that:

(1) Energy can be channelled through all parts of the body via tutaminis
and
(2) Lightning is usually fired through the fingertips

I think we can piece together what happened quite easily.

(1) Lightning forms between Wyyrlok and Krayt
(2) Krayt, with his entire torso enveloped in lightning, channels Wyyrlok’s lightning and sends it away, smashing two pillars
(3) While Krayt stands doing nothing, Wyyrlok throws the newly created rubble at Krayt
(4) Krayt takes hold of the rubble with telekinesis
(5) Krayt throws the rubble back at Wyyrlok, who throws up a Protection Bubble at the last minute

Indeed, Bubbles like these are a last-minute defence in Legacy, as seen when Darth Azard and Darth Talon shield themselves from unexpected flames:
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Conclusion? Much like how Krayt channelled Wyyrlok’s lightning into something new, I’ve transmuted your own analysis to create a new feat for Krayt: he bodily absorbs Wyyrlok’s pillar-smashing lightning, no-selling it. He then allows Wyyrlok to attack him with the rocks, and he no-sells this attack as well, throwing them back with such speed Wyyrlok barely has time to conjure a Protection Bubble.

So far, Wyyrlok is losing quite badly and Krayt is under no pressure at all.

Part 2 - An Argument Turned To Rubble


DarthAnt66 wrote:Wyyrlok hurls the shattered columns at Krayt (12). Krayt grabs them in the air and hurls them back on Wyyrlok (13). It's unclear whether Wyyrlok is telekinetically guiding them to Krayt all the way through, or if he's just throwing them like a ball and letting go of his telekinetic hold.

Wyyrlok’s hands are lit up blue, indicating he is guiding them, yeah.
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DarthAnt66 wrote:Decent chance that Krayt is ripping them directly from Wyyrlok's grasp

Agreed, and this would line up nicely with him no-selling Wyyrlok’s Lightning.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Wyyrlok's able to conjure a Force protection bubble that shields him from the rocks Krayt threw at him (14). Notice the rocks to the left of Wyyrlok. Unless Krayt has atrocious aim, which seems unlikely, they must have bounced off Wyyrlok's barrier.

Which shouldn’t come as much surprise, given that they are rocks.
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DarthAnt66 wrote:What are the implications of Wyyrlok successfully fending off Krayt's "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage" telekinetic rock attack?

Well, let me help you there. You were unsure about whether Wyyrlok was telekinetically guiding the rocks at Krayt, but I helped you already by showing you the blue glow around Wyyrlok’s hands. If we look at Krayt’s hands when he throws the rocks, we see no such blue glow:
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So, to quote you from earlier, it’s like Krayt is “just throwing them like a ball and letting go of his telekinetic hold.”

The implication of that would be Wyyrlok can defend himself from rocks. Exciting, I know. And also that Krayt threw them with such speed Wyyrlok’s only option was to throw up an instinctive Bubble.

DarthAnt66 wrote:That's not to say Krayt's telekinetic rock attack was a failure. Krayt uses the momentum to leap at Wyyrlok with two lightsabers, monstrous in form and roaring. Wyyrlok is shown shriveling behind his lightsaber.

Indeed, also worthy of note is Krayt is able to leap the distance between them, two sabers activated, in the time it takes Wyyrlok to pull his own saber and put up a meagre defence.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Across the next three panels, Krayt is shown dominant over Wyyrlok in lightsaber combat. Wyyrlok retreats up the first stair (16). Krayt presses the attack (17). Wyyrlok makes it to the first stair clearing, but Krayt slices off his bottom horns (18). Wyyrlok's face is shown panicked throughout.

Indeed, anyone reading this could be forgiven for thinking Wyyrlok is getting stomped, as the only panels we ever see are of him on the backfoot, and Krayt seemingly adds insult to injury by cutting off his bottom horns. Given Krayt’s modus operandi up to this point was to no-sell Wyyrlok’s lightning, then no-sell his telekinesis, cutting off both of his horns in the middle of a lightsaber duel is just savage!

Also worth noting? Krayt pretty precisely removed the bone of the horns, just leaving the artificial sheathing.
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It’s almost like Krayt was using this rare opportunity to make a statement to his legion of Sith that, far from having a rival, he is by far the strongest Sith and fit to rule.

DarthAnt66 wrote:What about this stair business, though?

A DarthAnt66 essay wouldn’t be complete without a demonstration of your skills in MSpaint!

DarthAnt66 wrote:So, Krayt and Wyyrlok fought at least eight feat to the staircase, up five stairs (conservative length of each stair is two feat based on the clipped size in the top left of 18), across a twelve foot clearing, and up five more stairs. That's at least forty feet, give or take.

Let’s be careful with our wording now, Ant. You say “fought,” but that assumes they were indeed fighting for the entire length of the steps. It’s possible, but it’s equally possible that Wyyrlok was scrambling up the stairs on the backfoot in between having his horns shaved off. Maybe he backpedalled and Krayt menacingly walked towards him? Not for us to know. All we are shown is:

(1) Krayt leaping at Wyyrlok, and Wyyrlok crumpling
(2) Wyyrlok seemingly off-balance/fleeing(?) up the steps, and Krayt with his back turned
(3) and (4) Wyyrlok having his horns shaved off

If Wyyrlok did anything other than be humiliated, Jan certainly did a poor job of showing us!

DarthAnt66 wrote:How good of a fighter is Wyyrlok, anyway?

Nowhere near Krayt’s paygrade, that’s for sure. As it was stated by the editor, Randy Stradley, the outcome between Krayt and Wyyrlok would never be in doubt, “especially” after Krayt’s rebirth. This is in answer to fans who complained Wyyrlok “fell too easily.”
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Although you seem to be hinting in the direction of Wyyrlok putting up some kind of fight? Given your status as a lightning-rod for terrible takes (see: Supernatural Encounters is canon, Luke can solo Abeloth, Revan is well written and interesting, etc) this doesn’t surprise me, but maybe you’ll change your mind.

The above comment by Randy would mean Vong Krayt, who spends every waking moment being eaten alive by parasites who weaken his willpower, attack his mind and reduce his connection to the Force, sapping much of his available strength, and who suffers in a failing body stretched far beyond its natural lifespan, as well as missing a human arm in place of a Vong arm (which could for all we know disrupt Krayt’s Force connection further)... would still defeat Wyyrlok, without question.

I think that is indicated by the comic itself, anyway. Wyyrlok states:

“You are strong, Lord Krayt – but I know who you are, who you were, and where your weaknesses lie!”

This tells us that Wyyrlok, up to this point, believes he is fighting the Krayt he knows, the one burdened by weaknesses like his past.

He goes on to say:

“I am greater than you ever suspected. And you are so much less than you believed yourself to be.”

Wyyrlok not only believes walking Krayt through all of his worst memories with sorcery will be enough to defeat him, but he believes he himself is greater than Krayt would have expected, and that Krayt is less than he built himself up to be. In other words, despite being no-sold and stomped in Force and Sabers, Wyyrlok is still only fighting a Krayt he can conceive of based on his existing knowledge.

Krayt responds:

“I have become so much more than you can know, traitor.”

This is a direct insinuation that Wyyrlok has not, and will never, see how much Krayt has grown. That whatever Wyyrlok thinks about Krayt, he is far greater than this. This tells us that Krayt wasn’t doing anything in this fight we wouldn’t expect Vong Krayt to be capable of: the only caveat being that Vong Krayt may have been tired after the exertion due to his illness.

This would lead us, the reader, to believe Wyyrlok was defeated with a fraction of Krayt’s full power.

DarthAnt66 wrote:- Wyyrlok seemingly can block Krayt's "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage" Force lightning attack with his own
- Wyyrlok can block Krayt's "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage" telekinetic rock attack with a Force protection bubble
- Wyyrlok can last in a duel with a maybe-trying ("firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage," anyone? ) Krayt for at least 40 feet despite being a relatively poor duelist

Let’s adjust this in light of new analysis, shall we?

- Wyyrlok’s lightning is absorbed and no-sold
- Wyyrlok is able to deflect rocks
- Wyyrlok can have his horns shaved and his ass kicked up a flight of steps by Vong Krayt

Part 3 - The Obsession With Talon


DarthAnt66 wrote:Darth Talon has perhaps the best understanding of Darth Krayt’s power-level of any character.

Uh oh, blunder alert! Only Krayt would have such an understanding, given that he is himself. But he also tells us that, through death and rebirth, he has undergone a transformation.

“Death is not an ending, boy – but it is a passageway to something greater. It is something you, too, must experience, Cade Skywalker.”
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Through death, Krayt arrived at an understanding - and a vision - which Cade can only understand if he is “reborn” in the “forge of fire and death - of chaos and anger” and transformed into “a creature of dark energy, wrapped in the shadows of the dark side.”
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“I needed to experience death to understand how you did it”
“Death is the only way you can understand my vision.”
“Only then will you understand your place in the galaxy.”
“Tell me, my apprentice, can you defeat death as I did? Can you heal yourself?”
“Apprentice. Did you see? Do you understand what you are meant to be?”


DarthAnt66 wrote:Talon wants to “warn” Krayt about Cade being “stronger” and that he has “new mastery of the Force.” And it’s not just that she wants to warn Krayt but thinks she “must” warn him. Why?

Why? You didn’t need to expend the effort of writing a lengthy blog post to answer that question. The answer is that she cares about Krayt deeply. She has felt Cade’s new power first-hand and wants to warn Krayt about it.

It might be worth zooming out and remembering that even someone as powerful as Darth Sidious viewed Asajj Ventress as a “threat” just on the basis of her growing power, and ordered Dooku to execute her. Likewise he viewed the untrained Luke Skywalker as a potential threat to be destroyed or turned to the dark side. Sidious calls Maul a “rival” and personally fights him and Savage Opress, in a fight where Sidious is described by the aggregate of sources as essentially toying with Maul and “never wavering from his position of superiority.” The point being that a character worrying about another character’s perceived threat does little to inform us of how that threat will actually manifest in a fight.

Now, as for the rest, you’ve obviously been very careful about what positive claims you’re willing to make and defend. You’ve brought in a great deal of tertiary points and speculation designed to point the reader in the direction you prefer. Why don’t we take the strongest claims you’ve made and see how each holds up to scrutiny?

DarthAnt66 wrote:But it’s a definite possibility. Krayt goes in underestimating Cade then BAM! Cade blasts him with his new powers. If true, then it still follows that Krayt cannot “easily” defeat Cade. How do you define “easily”? Well, if a Krayt not-particularly-trying could wave his hand this way and that and force Cade to his knees, then what is she warning Krayt for?

I don’t think there is any evidence in their fight alone that Krayt can “wave his hand this way and that and force Cade to his knees.” Although, there is no evidence he can’t either.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Cade has to be powerful enough that, at a minimum, a not-particularly-trying Krayt is in danger. Is it possible that Krayt, upon invoking much of his full power, could still readily force Cade to his knees? Yeah. The point being made is that Talon does not think a finger gesture win or anything close is realistic here.

Likewise with this, I don’t think there’s any evidence in the fight that Krayt can defeat Cade with a finger gesture (although there’s no evidence this isn’t possible, either). As for full-power Krayt, there’s no evidence he is using even close to his full power in this fight. And on that point, I’d argue there’s ample evidence to suggest he’s using a fraction of his power. For instance, let’s go back to Vector and see the depictions of Force power that take place there:

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This being Vong Krayt and Celeste Morne/Karness Muur (affectionately known as “Muurne”). A theoretical Karness Muur, who “finds another mount, one he can dominate” who will then “truly live again” is only “perhaps stronger” than “any other [Sith] we’ve seen thus far in “Legacy."” as stated by John Ostrander, the writer of the comic.
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In the solicitation for #31 (depending on how much you care about such things) it’s stated that Vector Krayt - the iteration of Legacy Krayt suffering the most acutely from his physical ailments - “might” no longer be the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy.
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Now, as for this theoretical Reborn Muur, how is this Muur depicted across the Vector storyline? Well according to the omniscient narrator of the Dark Times series, Reborn Muur would “doom the galaxy to a living hell” and Vader would “merely trade one master for another,” with Dark Times Palpatine depicted dead and defeated on the ground and Vader bowing before Muur.
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It’s important to point out that the narrator is omniscient, and the question raised isn’t about whether the dark future would come true, but rather whether if Vader chose to don the talisman, would he be achieving his objective (usurping Palpatine) or would he be merely becoming apprentice to a new master (Muur). The narrator speaks declaratively at other points in the sequence such as here: “The spirit of the long-dead Sith Lord is right.”
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How else is this Reborn Muur depicted? In the event he possessed ANH Luke, he would again take over the galaxy and smite everyone, including Vader and Palpatine, who if you look closely are lying dead in the bottom right corner.
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Now you might say, well that’s only if Muur were to possess a Skywalker host, and there’s no guarantee the Muur being floated in the above quotes is meant to be the same as the one possessing Vader or Luke. However, there are two simple counters to this.

(1) In Legacy: Vector, there is a Skywalker being floated as the potential host body anyway: Cade.
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(2) If you look closely at Ostrander and Muur’s own words, they both state that a Skywalker isn’t needed for this galactic conquest, merely a “suitable host” he can “dominate.” Then he will truly “live again.” The entire plot of the crossover, after all, revolves around Celeste trying to keep the Muur talisman from being found by anyone to prevent these disastrous visions from becoming a reality.
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And Muur even tries it on with people like Shado and Azlyn Rae, so it appears either of them would make for a “suitable host” too.
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And then as we see, Muurne and Krayt contend with one another, even while Muur and Celeste work in seeming unison for the first time ever, and this only ends when Krayt is stabbed in the back.
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Point being? The power displayed in Vector, between the size and extent of the Lightning to the Force Maelstrom at the end is far and away more extreme than this:
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Or this:
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Or this:
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Or this:
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Or this:
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Or this? I guess it looks kind of extreme?
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Point being, if you wanted to argue this is Krayt’s “full power” you would simultaneously be arguing that his “full power” looks paltry and underwhelming compared to the power displayed by probably the weakest iteration of Vong Krayt. You would also be arguing that the power in those scans is enough to be in a close enough range to make it ambiguous next to a Muur-possessed Skywalker who seemingly smites Palpatine.

I personally don’t buy it; if I had to venture a guess, I would say Krayt used the power needed for the job, which is by-depiction some fraction of his full power. There is a lot more you could say about Krayt and Cade outside of just their fight, but since this thread is about their fight, I’ll stick to that.

Part 4 - Omega Red? Omega Cringe


DarthAnt66 wrote:Krayt plans to “kill” Cade and wants him to “experience” “death.” He monologues that he has had a vision that reveals even before Cade “bends” and “breaks” that “first” he “must die.” So, Krayt’s plan sequence is: “kill” Cade -> bend Cade -> break Cade -> join with Cade.

What does “kill” mean? Krayt wants Cade to experience what he did. Krayt says he remembers the “yawning abyss of the grave waiting to suck me all the way in,” which taken literally is likely referencing the pull of Chaos against Krayt’s spirit. Krayt says at this pivotal juncture, he found a “secret” that allowed him to “astride” (or straddle) the grave. From there, Krayt fought his way back to life. So, by “kill,” Krayt means he plans to send Cade as close to death as possible. And the more pain, the merrier, since then it should be more reflective of Krayt’s own death experience, in which he remembers “every nerve fiber ablaze.”

While a bit verbose, nothing here is disagreeable in of itself.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Thus, it’s not just permissible but rather goal optimizing for Krayt to unload everything on Cade.

In the narrow way you’re defining it, yes, it would be “optimal” for Krayt to unload his full power on Cade. But then Krayt may not be concerned with optimisation, which would render your argument moot here. You haven’t actually proven that it’s Krayt’s intention to unload his full power on Cade and you admit as much here:

DarthAnt66 wrote:Krayt isn't necessarily invoking greater power than Vong Krayt or even his full power.

Moving on…

DarthAnt66 wrote:Krayt is aware that Darth Maladi’s Omega Red virus is about to drop onto Coruscant. Omega Red will kill trillions “within a matter of breaths” besides Sith, which are immune. And Maladi presumably did not personally encode every individual One Sith’s DNA into the virus to exempt them from aboard Roan Fel’s Star Destroyer, so it must detect some considerable threshold of dark side energy.
[...]
It’s certainly uncertain if Cade would survive the toxin unless he’s fully converted to a Sith. Ergo, it serves Krayt’s interests to “kill”, bend, and break Cade as quickly as possible as Krayt is expecting the toxin to drop effectively any minute.

This all rests on the assumption that Krayt cares about the Omega Red toxin hitting Coruscant as it pertains to Cade. There’s certainly no evidence for this in the comic, as Krayt at no point ever insists that time is of the essence with regards to Cade’s turning. But while we’re here, let’s see what Krayt does say:
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Yes Nihl, as I foresaw… Krayt is nonplussed about the ongoing situation shortly before Cade arrives, stating that things are happening as he foresaw them.

He then states to Cade: “As with your allies, your battle here was lost before you arrived.”
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Krayt isn’t a man in a hurry: everything is going according to plan. He doesn’t fear death, he refuses to believe Cade would actually kill him, and even if he did he’s confident that he can win an Essence Transfer battle.
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If we go earlier in the series, we get more insight into Krayt’s thinking. He always planned to tempt Roan with Omega Red, as he has Maladi planted early on.
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After this, Krayt has the idea to lure Cade to him.
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Krayt says the Force “speaks to” him and that he has “foreseen” how the coming battle will play out.
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Now to tie all this together, lets remember what Krayt said earlier:
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“For I had a vision” - this being the vision he shows Cade here:
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(1) One part of the vision involves Cade “serving” Krayt. Krayt will “teach” Cade the “ways of darkness until I become dust… until I become you.” Cade is to be converted and then some time in the future become Krayt’s host body. This will be accomplished via Essence Transfer, hence “Nothing of flesh and blood lasts, but power is eternal.”

(2) The other part of the vision is what happens to Coruscant, the “jewel” of the galaxy as it’s known, as well as the primary seat of power in the galaxy. “I promised chaos and I brought it here.” Krayt always intended to lifewipe Coruscant as part of the galaxy experiencing “the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth. I will bring chaos. It is time for war” as he said in #2.
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What does all of this mean for your Omega Red argument?

(A) Krayt had the “idea” to lure Cade to Coruscant at the precise time Roan Fel would be dropping Omega Red on Coruscant. Whether or not Omega Red would kill Cade, either outcome would be perfectly amenable to Krayt’s “vision” which involves Cade and Coruscant both dying. Krayt wants Cade so he can Transfer Essence into him. Cade dying to Omega Red would leave his body perfectly intact and Krayt has already proven he can bring a corpse back to life.

(B) As you pointed out, the “bending” and “breaking” of Cade happens after he dies, and presumably also after he is resurrected. The “rebirth” is designed to turn Cade into a “dark creature.” Omega Red killing Cade before Krayt would do nothing to upset any of this, it would merely expedite it, as Krayt, with Cade in his custody, now has all the time in the world to resurrect him, ┬ábend him and break him.

(C) Not to mention, Krayt was in flat denial that Cade (1) would fail to be transformed and serve him, (2) would try to “actually” kill Krayt e.g cutting off his head or (3) that he would fail to Transfer Essence into Cade even if (1) and (2) fell through.

It’s important to remember, too, that all of this is simply what Krayt thinks. It doesn’t matter if he’s right or wrong about particular details. This simply informs us as to whether it’s likely Krayt was racing against the clock to torture and resurrect Cade before Omega Red hit… and suffice to say it’s clear the opposite is true: Krayt had all the time in the world.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Krayt opens the fight with a Force blast. Given Cade is about six feet off the ground while being thrown backwards and slightly upwards, it follows that Cade jumped at Krayt and Krayt caught him in mid-air. Krayt says that Cade should surrender because Cade “fled our last fight” and that he is “so much more now than” he was then.

It’s probable that Krayt is chaining to this statement an attack that reflects or substantiates his claim of newfound powers Necessarily? No. But it’s strange to say, “Surrender. I am much more powerful now. Behold a burst of power that either meets or is lower than your standing expectations of me!”

I don’t think you need me to tell you that the idea of Krayt Force pushing Cade and then boasting about being more powerful is a far cry from proving he’s using his full power.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Again, Krayt isn't necessarily invoking greater power than Vong Krayt or even his full power. But doing so helps his goals and not doing so imperils his goals. Could Krayt think victory is assured, have total confidence in his Dark Transfer, and so be willing to slightly derail his goals for fun or indifference? Sure.

Well then, other than just trying to sway public opinion, what’s the point of your blog if you can’t prove any of your claims?

DarthAnt66 wrote:Except Krayt’s never shown character tendencies like that before, nor is he indicated to be in that mindset now. It follows that Krayt's emotions should be that of one in anticipation of ultimate triumph but with the final verdict outstanding. When people feel that way, seldom do they loosen up and begin creating additional issues. They double-down and see it through. Krayt is even pulling out a new lightsaber for this battle!

This might be a hard concept to grasp for someone whose favourite character is a self-insert, but there's such a thing as "character development." Krayt has also never been more sure of himself since having been reborn and having a new “vision” for the galaxy. He said Cade lost before he even arrived similarly to how he had foreseen how the ongoing battle would play out. John has stated Krayt has become "crazier" and believes he has "conquered death and cannot die again", two things that would readily explain any perceived irrationality in his decision making.
Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Tqxmbt10

DarthAnt66 wrote:Believe what you want as it’s ultimately ambiguous, but it’s a contest of “here’s multiple reasons why Krayt should go all out versus here’s zero reasons why Krayt should not go all out.” Is it possible he does not anyway? Yeah. But it’s not probable. Everything the comic itself writes or implies about what Krayt wants to do is best addressed by him bringing out his fist.

The idea that it’s “probable” Krayt was using his “full power” against Cade and “everything the comic itself writes” implies this is lolworthy. As will be shown now…

DarthAnt66 wrote:The most disputed panel illustration in Star Wars history! Some say it’s Krayt “dragging Cade through the air.” I say it’s Krayt breaking rocks as Cade jumps and pivots along them.

You must have a very low opinion of Krayt if you think him breaking rocks and letting Cade use them as stepping stones is an indication of his “full power,” but it makes sense when you recall that earlier on you made a huge fuss about rocks being thrown. But anyway, the thing you managed to ignore here is:

(1) Cade’s body is clearly contorting in weird and uncomfortable ways, as shown by his wrist bending and overall body positioning.
(2) The very obvious TK effect drawn indicating the direction Krayt’s hand has moved from right to left.
Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Xm3eak10

You say Krayt is breaking rocks and Cade is stepping on them, I think it’s pretty obvious that if anything Krayt is smashing Cade through the rocks.

Part 5 - Conclusion


The rest of your analysis (as it pertains to “how well” Cade does against Krayt and “how close” they are) rests solely on the premise that Krayt is using his full power, which you invite the reader to believe without proving it to them. I don’t really care if you think Cade bent Krayt’s messing-around Lightning (even assuming that’s what happened) when Kenobi tanks a blast of lightning from the Son on the greatest dark side nexus in existence, when the Son has no reason to care about keeping him alive and actually wants to kill him because he will try to “stop” Anakin from freeing the Son.
https://youtu.be/tckaN6EdNMg?t=60

Likewise with your point about the fight’s extended length off-panel: we simply don’t know what happened, it could have been Cade getting blasted all over the place for all we know, so I don’t see how it helps your argument seeing as you already admitted you can’t prove anything about how much power and effort Krayt is putting into this. Couple that with the points I’ve raised here about Krayt’s disposition and the more extreme use of his power in Vector, and the overall picture you’ve tried to paint here has fallen apart.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Read what I wrote for my thoughts on why Cade put up a good fight against Krayt. Does this mean Cade ever had a real shot at winning? Not necessarily. He never pressed Krayt offensively.

And I’m glad you said this, because it’s worth pointing out. Cade isn’t depicted actually doing anything of note. Krayt doesn’t need to utilise his full power against someone below his paygrade, he can use however much power is necessary. If you wanted to see an example of Krayt going all out, you might look to a situation that warranted it - like him fighting Abeloth. What’s particularly ironic in your insistence that Krayt is totes using 100% of his power is your simultaneous belief that in Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse Luke was holding back some of his power against an Abeloth who had captured his son and was dangling him over the Font of Power, getting ready to transform him into an abomination. You are very rigid in your belief that in even the most stupendous of circumstances it’s a character trait of Luke’s to only use as much power as he needs and “ramp up” where necessary, and yet even though you know that Reborn Krayt is effectively crazier than ever and willing to lifewipe Coruscant, you can’t even entertain the notion that he would leave further room to “ramp up” past breaking a few rocks and a small spray of lightning.
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Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Empty Re: Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series

August 23rd 2022, 3:46 pm
Good work. Some addendums from our previous debates and discussions I think would contribute well to the blog:

ILS wrote:This would lead us, the reader, to believe Wyyrlok was defeated with a fraction of Krayt’s full power.

Remember that Krayt was maintaining telepathic contact with "millions" of his Sith Troopers for the entire length of Legacy: War up until his bodily death, including his duels with Wyyrlok and Cade. We know it required more of an active than passive effort as the Sith Troopers were not bound to Krayt for their whole lives like the Children of the Emperor were to Vitiate: prior to War, Krayt's mind was only open to his "closest disciples," and Cade and Darth Stryfe both noted his absence in their heads following his death on Had Abaddon, meaning he did not assume control of the Sith Troopers until his rebirth. Now, whether he was outright mentally enslaving them and consciously directing the war like Palpatine, or merely bolstering their will to fight like Vaylin, is up for discussion, but either way, it would be something that probably required Krayt to spend some portion of his concentration and strength on. I personally like to believe this is why he fell to easily to Cade's blade: the bulk of his attention was on directing his military campaign, not a defeated enemy.

Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Sith_t27

Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Sith_t25

Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Sith_t26

ILS wrote:Why? You didn’t need to expend the effort of writing a lengthy blog post to answer that question. The answer is that she cares about Krayt deeply. She has felt Cade’s new power first-hand and wants to warn Krayt about it.

I'd add that Cade didn't even necessarily use his full potency on Talon - his Force pushes aren't instantly disabling like they have been in their previous fights where his power was lesser. Talon's warning may not have been to tell Krayt that Cade can definitively rival him now, but that he's clearly improved by a significant margin and thus there's no telling what to expect from him. It's not her insinuating that what Cade showed against her is enough to threaten Lord Krayt, merely that Cade's growth opens the possibility of him being stronger than either of them might expect (which would foreshadow Cade's refusal to submit even after witnessing Krayt's vision).

ILS wrote:It might be worth zooming out and remembering that even someone as powerful as Darth Sidious viewed Asajj Ventress as a “threat” just on the basis of her growing power, and ordered Dooku to execute her. Likewise he viewed the untrained Luke Skywalker as a potential threat to be destroyed or turned to the dark side. Sidious calls Maul a “rival” and personally fights him and Savage Opress, in a fight where Sidious is described by the aggregate of sources as essentially toying with Maul and “never wavering from his position of superiority.” The point being that a character worrying about another character’s perceived threat does little to inform us of how that threat will actually manifest in a fight.

Another example I'd cite is Vitiate ordering the deaths of over a "hundred Jedi - and ten times as many Sith" over the centuries for being "too powerful" or "too ambitious." A Vitiate who could "easily" down a strike team of "the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order," including the Hero of Tython, in 20 seconds, and seemingly raze a planet with a death wave after mentally dominating large portion of its populace, Jedi and Sith included, as a convalescing spirit.

Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Vitiate_paranoid_1

Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Vitiate_paranoid_2

ILS wrote:I personally don’t buy it; if I had to venture a guess, I would say Krayt used the power needed for the job, which is by-depiction some fraction of his full power. There is a lot more you could say about Krayt and Cade outside of just their fight, but since this thread is about their fight, I’ll stick to that.

I'll copy-paste my analysis from Round 5 of the Top Fifteen Tournament from a couple of years' back, with some minor edits.

Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Krayt_27

If you look at the background of each panel, it changes. In the first one, Krayt is on a narrow ledge when he blasts Cade away. In the second one, he is on a floor that stretches off-panel, and one that has a different pattern to the one in the first panel. In the third one, the floor is once again different and Krayt is standing in front of an intact pillar, which isn’t present in any of the other panels.

We know that Krayt hadn’t drawn a lightsaber as of this point. He was exclusively using Force attacks, and successfully batting Cade aside with them - over and over and over - as he’s walking toward the exit. The closest analogue to this I can find is Revan vs. Vitiate, but even that’s not the same: Vitiate fires a charged blast of telekinesis at the last instant before Revan’s blade found its mark, after which Revan is flung back and Vitiate attempts to telepathically dominate him, but Revan resists and sends Vitiate in turn flying back; Vitiate sends three bursts of lightning at Revan, none of which are successful at taking him down, and he even sends one of them back at Vitiate, knocking the Emperor back further; Vitiate then downs Revan in a charged collision of their Force energies. That’s the closest thing to a pure wizarding duel in the lore I can think of, and there both contestants land an equal amount of attacks at one another. All other instances of exclusive Force use in fights I can recall have been absolute stomps e.g. Yoda vs. Asajj Ventress, or Palpatine vs. ROTJ Luke Skywalker

Krayt’s showings against Cade fall closer to the latter two examples. At no point does Cade land any Force-based hits on Krayt, and he fails to get within striking distance of him despite Krayt having walked through three different areas over the course of the duel. If they were relative equals, Krayt would not be able to thrash Cade around repeatedly without Cade being able to retaliate at all; if Cade had “negated” Krayt’s telekinesis, he would have been able to get closer to Krayt much sooner; and even if the power gap was quite wide, Krayt would not have been able to do what he did - the disproportionate strength of Force barriers makes it impossible even Darth Sidious to just ragdoll someone on a firmly lower tier like Darth Maul without finding or engineering gaps in his defense.

Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Force_Shield

Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

And even if Cade did somehow manage to negate Krayt’s telekinesis (he didn’t), it wouldn’t be an indication of relativity whatsoever; refer to the above evidence.

ILS wrote:You must have a very low opinion of Krayt if you think him breaking rocks and letting Cade use them as stepping stones is an indication of his “full power,” but it makes sense when you recall that earlier on you made a huge fuss about rocks being thrown. But anyway, the thing you managed to ignore here is:

(1) Cade’s body is clearly contorting in weird and uncomfortable ways, as shown by his wrist bending and overall body positioning.
(2) The very obvious TK effect drawn indicating the direction Krayt’s hand has moved from right to left.
Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Xm3eak10

You say Krayt is breaking rocks and Cade is stepping on them, I think it’s pretty obvious that if anything Krayt is smashing Cade through the rocks.

Here's more of my analysis:

There’s a blue trail coming out of Krayt’s hand, which indicates movement. It tells us Krayt has been exerting telekinesis for a sweeping arc that even goes off-panel. We also see that he is looking upward, and that his feet are glued in place - it tells us he is standing on the floor (the tile pattern), and that Cade is in fact high up in the air, close to a wall. The interpretation that Cade is “standing” on the rocks and “jumping” on them is evidently false, as one cannot stand on a wall, and there is no realistic position on the floor from where he could or would have jumped on the wall - his feet and legs are angled so that the only direction he could have gotten momentum from is right where Krayt is standing or at the very least well within striking distance of him, and logically he would have attempted to strike an unarmed Krayt if he were that close to him instead of jumping sideways to a wall like a retard.

If we’re being (very) generous to Ant's interpretation, we could say that Cade was running along the wall and Krayt was leaving a trail of crushed rocks behind him as he ran… but Krayt is easily capable of destroying the entire wall at once if need be, and running across a wall is immensely impractical in such a situation to begin with:

Debunking DarthAnt66's "Dissecting Legacy" Series Idiotic_tactic

The path Cade could have taken vs. the path Cade did take - instead of rushing straight at an unarmed opponent like he does in every other panel of the fight, or even instead of trying to outmaneuver the opponent by flanking, he decides to run along a wall well before he even gets near Krayt…? Or maybe - just maybe - Cade isn’t running along a wall, but that Krayt is simply dragging him through the air in a telekinetic grip and causes some collateral damage as he liberally spams his potent powers. That wouldn’t make both characters look down-syndromed like Ant's interpretation would have it, and it fits right with the facts of the fight: Krayt being able to keep Cade at bay with just his Force abilities and Cade being unable to retaliate long enough for Krayt to have moved across three different areas.

-- -- --

Lastly, I'd bring up the Saarai scaling we crafted for our Wyyrlok respect thread back in the day: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2805-darth-wyyrlok-iii-respect-thread#52989. To summarize the argument: 1) Talon and Stryfe rival each other in power and combat ability, with Stryfe perhaps even being the stronger of the two. 2) Saarai dominates Stryfe to a greater degree than Cade dominates Talon in the last two issues of War. 3) Saarai's power is "nascent" compared to Wyyrlok. Ergo, the vast power disparity between Wyyrlok and Cade ensures it's impossible for Cade to give a good fight to Krayt, who is even more powerful than Wyyrlok and possessed of far greater mastery and skill than Cade, even if you believe Wyyrlok himself was a challenge for Krayt.

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