Reflection on my 'Dissecting Legacy' Series (Rebuttal to the Rebuttal)
August 24th 2022, 9:43 pm
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Please be sure to read all proceeding blogs (my 'Dissecting Legacy' series and i_love_swords' rebuttal) before reading this blog.
Dissecting Legacy #2: Darth Krayt vs Darth Wyyrlok: Rebuttal to the Rebuttal
Section I: Force Lightning:
The common interpretation has been that Krayt deflected Wyyrlok’s Lightning into the pillars - he didn’t absorb it. The difference is best shown with Yoda and Dooku:
Yoda absorbs, Dooku deflects.
Krayt, now using two hands, channels lightning to break two columns. Again, its unclear who's lightning that is, but its notable that Krayt's entire torso is shown to be crackling with the lightning. No precedent of this ever happening with tutaminis... but it's happened with lightning.
Well, actually, there is. In Star Wars (1998) #35 (also by Jan) Volfe Karkko has his whole body lit up with Force Lightning, as he seemingly absorbs it and then fires it back at Quinlan.
Something similar happens in the Plagueis novel as a matter of curiosity; Plagueis absorbs the energy of blaster bolts via his palm, the energy travels across his chest and then he transmutes it into lightning.
“To cause to spread out freely.”
Channelling energy would be akin to what Yoda, Plagueis or Volfe Karkko did; diffusing would be akin to what Dooku did.
It’s usually done via an outstretched palm, but this is by convention rather than necessity. As we’ve seen, Karkko and Plagueis absorb energy into their chests and then transmute that energy into their own Force lightning. In Jedi Path, tutaminis can be used to shield the skin from the radiation of the sun, and this is treated as being same in kind to deflecting a blaster bolt.
As for Krayt’s torso being enveloped in Lightning: your scan of Cade using Dark Transfer is good to include here because Cade is using Dark Transfer there which, as the name suggests, involves Cade transferring energy from his body into the body of another.
Tutaminis, like Dark Transfer, is part of the “Control” branch of Force abilities as it involves channelling energy through one’s body.
Force Lightning is also part of Control, as it involves channelling energy through one’s body, and in Book of Sith (the counterpart to Jedi Path), it falls under “Body” which roughly corresponds to the Jedi school of “Control” powers.
Your scan of Celeste is a bit less relevant as we can clearly see her torso, where visible, isn’t enveloped in Force energy. There is just some around her head.
This is because more often than not Lightning is produced from the fingertips/hands/arms and not the chest.
In particular note in this panel none of Celeste’s torso is enveloped in lightning.
Just to drive the point home, in Dawn of the Jedi, Xesh channels a Force Storm at its nexus, his body enveloped in the energy.
That would suggest that this is, indeed, a use of Tutaminis:
So, if we know that:
(1) Energy can be channelled through all parts of the body via tutaminis
(2) Lightning is usually fired through the fingertips
I think we can piece together what happened quite easily.
(1) Lightning forms between Wyyrlok and Krayt
(2) Krayt, with his entire torso enveloped in lightning, channels Wyyrlok’s lightning and sends it away, smashing two pillars
Recall that my argument is that Krayt is likely shooting Force lightning based on:
(A) Having an identical pose to Wyyrlok and having Force lightning coursing down his arm to an identical degree with Wyyrlok
(B) His illustration not conforming to visual cue precedent of characters absorbing or deflecting Force lightning
(C) One of the two main Force lightning streams fired from Wyyrlok take an abrupt 90 degree turn to hit Wyyrlok, which is better explained by that being the intersection point of Wyyrlok and Krayt's Force lightning
You don’t address any of these points.
You show this as another way the artist shows Force lightning absorption…
But it’s clearly not what Krayt is doing. Notice Krayt’s body is not full of Force lightning!
And Krayt’s body isn’t full of Force lightning here, either. Notice his upper arms and head are not!
Your point seems to be that it is mechanically possible that Krayt is absorbing or deflecting Force lightning and that the Krayt illustrations partially match other examples of characters absorbing or deflecting Force lightning.
But I already agreed it was mechanically possible -- I just said it wasn’t likely. And that “partially match” is another word for "doesn’t match". We have no visual precedent of another character appearing as Krayt does when they absorb or direct Force lightning.
Does not look like this (Krayt’s body is not coated in Force lightning):
Nor this (Krayt has lightning streaming down his arm and emanating from his fingertips):
Nor this (Krayt has no purple circle around his hand):
And so that is to say we have now three examples of characters not appearing as Krayt does when they do what you claim Krayt is doing.
You know what exactly matches what Krayt is doing, though?
Same pose. Same lightning depth on the arm. Same situation.
So, again, my position is that while Krayt could be absorbing and/or redirecting Force lightning, it is more likely that he is shooting Force lightning. Since your proposal does not match visual precedent but mine does. And since my proposal makes better sense of the lightning effects in the middle of the panel.
Here's a visual of the clash as a whole (with Wyyrlok’s thinner lightning strands and Krayt’s thicker lightning strands also matching with the idea):
My full argument stands.
Section II: Telekinetic Storm:
Wyyrlok’s hands are lit up blue, indicating he is guiding them, yeah.
What? Of course his hands are lit up. He’s still swirling the storm of ricks in that panel (as in, Wyyrlok is swirling rocks from the shattered pillar around him and then hurling them at Krayt. His hands necessarily still must be lit up until he stops swirling all the rocks around him regardless of what you think he's doing at the end of the swirl). The question is whether he retains a mental hold over the rocks all the way through, or if after some point he hurls them and lets momentum take them to Krayt. We see both happen all the time. For example, Kao Cen Darach seems to just hurl objects at Darth Malgus (https://youtu.be/Pb8M5P1QKX8?t=282); he’s not retaining a mental grip over them.
Which shouldn’t come as much surprise, given that they are rocks.
How much effort did you even put into this response? The power behind the rocks colliding against Wyyrlok’s Force bubble is dictated by Krayt’s own power. The fact that the rocks, propelled by Krayt’s "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage", do not shatter or puncture Wyyrlok’s Force bubble shows that they lacked the force to do so. The Mortis Son would not have his rocks bouncing off Wyyrlok’s Force bubble. (Note it’s conceivable that, once operating at a high-enough power-level, the rocks would just incinerate while thrown or colliding with the Force bubble. But Krayt’s attack is clearly not at that level here as the rocks very distinctively bounce off the bubble in still-large chunks.)
My full argument stands.
Section III: Lightsaber Duel:
Also worth noting? Krayt pretty precisely removed the bone of the horns, just leaving the artificial sheathing.
No. Those are still his horn bones. They exactly match the color of his horn bones on the top of his head. It’s just that all of Wyyrlok’s horns are depicted with that gray color as he dies.
You say “fought,” but that assumes they were indeed fighting for the entire length of the steps. It’s possible, but it’s equally possible that Wyyrlok was scrambling up the stairs on the backfoot in between having his horns shaved off. Maybe he backpedalled and Krayt menacingly walked towards him? Not for us to know.
Maybe Krayt just ripped off his clothes and started an orgy with Darth Talon between the panels! Who knows?! I am going with what is most likely, though. And yes, I think Krayt and Wyyrlok fighting all the way through is most likely.
The four panel duel shows us Krayt leaping at Wyyrlok yelling, Wyyrlok and Krayt exchanging blows, Krayt fighting toward Wyyrlok, and again Krayt fighting toward Wyyrlok -- the consistent trend being Krayt is always shown fighting, advancing. This matches Krayt being described as a "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage.” To suppose Krayt is just walking menacingly toward Wyyrlok is to suppose that the panels shown are not just outliers to the duel itself (rare instances in which Krayt randomly decides to attack Wyyrlok) but outliers to Krayt’s attitude toward the fight itself. If you want to suppose a character suddenly acts irrationally/out-of-character/way different than all the surrounding context and past precedent, you need evidence that he is acting irrationally/out-of-character/way different than all the surrounding context and past precedent. You have not done that here. You’ve just suggested “but maybe!” without realizing that “maybe” isn’t as strong as my evidence-backed “likely.” It’s an argument almost unworthy of a response as it’s an argument devoid of underlying substance.
As it was stated by the editor, Randy Stradley, the outcome between Krayt and Wyyrlok would never be in doubt, “especially” after Krayt’s rebirth. This is in answer to fans who complained Wyyrlok “fell too easily.”
Of course. That’s my position, as well. My position is that Wyyrlok’s Force powers are strong enough that Krayt cannot walk over him -- he can resist his Force lightning and he can resist his telekinesis. But Wyyrlok is explicitly not that great a fighter -- even Vong Krayt should beat him every time. My interest is how long can Wyyrlok stand against Krayt? Looking at the fight, is he speed-blitzed? No. Is he readily disarmed? No. Is he even quickly disarmed? No -- 40 feet go by and he’s still standing, still infused with enough power that he can drop a Memory Walk on Krayt*. And so, again, I ask: What are the implications of a "diplomat rather than a warrior," +16 fighter weathering Krayt's "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage" saber attacks for over 40 feet?
* Emphasis on this point, which is a new point. Lightsaber duels are exhausting if there’s a great disparity in ability, as the one Force user has to lavishly expend their reserves to keep up. The fact that after 40 feet, Wyyrlok is not yet depleted and still has enough power left to use his most powerful attack further supports the idea he is hanging in there. Doing good? No. Getting bullied? Yes. But nevertheless hanging in? Also yes.
My full argument stands.
Section IV: Memory Walk
This tells us that Krayt wasn’t doing anything in this fight we wouldn’t expect Vong Krayt to be capable of: the only caveat being that Vong Krayt may have been tired after the exertion due to his illness.
This would lead us, the reader, to believe Wyyrlok was defeated with a fraction of Krayt’s full power.
Not at all.
Wyyrlok’s monologue actually acknowledges that Krayt is “strong.” That’s not in dispute. Wyyrlok is saying that despite being strong (”but”), Krayt has “weaknesses.” Particularly, Krayt clings to the pain of his past and has always had to rely on Wyyrlok due to his physical frailties. (Note that Wyyrlok isn’t saying Krayt still has the Vong implants -- he visibly does not. Rather, Wyyrlok is saying that while Krayt had to lean on the Wyyrlok family for decades due to the Vong implants, Wyyrlok has not had to do the same, and thus while he knows all about Krayt, Krayt knows nothing about Wyyrlok). When Wyyrlok concludes that Krayt is “so much less than [he] believed [himself] to be,” he’s not talking about raw Force power. Again, Wyyrlok is saying despite Krayt’s raw Force power, he has an achilles heel -- an achilles heel that Wyyrlok knows all about and how to exploit.
Krayt’s “has become so much more than you can know” is a response to Wyyrlok’s accusation, which explicitly does not include raw Force power. Krayt is saying Wyyrlok will die without knowing the full extent of his transcendence. Krayt has not just unshackled himself from the past and needing to rely on Wyyrlok. Krayt believes he has “conquered” death itself -- Krayt can heal himself from the brink with Dark Transfer, and Krayt allegedly (per you) even possesses essence transfer. His will and vision for the galaxy is both stronger than ever and distinct in kind from what was before. Wyyrlok thinks this is old Krayt, but Krayt is saying, ‘Not only am I not old Krayt but I am far beyond old Krayt.’
As an aside, note the implication that Wyyrlok’s Memory Walk may have significantly pressed Vong Krayt. Wyyrlok absolutely believes it would, frothing at the mouth with a gleeful smile, boldly proclaiming himself amazing. And Krayt’s rebuttal exclusively emphasizes his new state. Vong Krayt is still shackled by the past and by the implants… it’s very possible an attack singularly focused on exploiting those weaknesses would be a real challenge to Vong Krayt. And remember that Wyyrlok does this after a protracted lightsaber duel with Krayt! Whew!
Section V: Conclusion:
I reaffirm with even stronger reasoning:
- Wyyrlok can block Krayt's "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage" Force lightning attack with his own
- Wyyrlok can block Krayt's "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage" telekinetic rock attack with a Force protection bubble
- Wyyrlok can last in a duel with a "firestorm of raw emotion and cold rage" Krayt for at least 40 feet despite being a relatively poor duelist and still have enough reserves to launch his most powerful attack
It’s almost like Krayt was using this rare opportunity to make a statement to his legion of Sith that, far from having a rival, he is by far the strongest Sith and fit to rule.
What's this? Krayt's motivations are to show "he is by far the strongest Sith and fit to rule?" Even more reason to believe that Krayt would unveil his full powers.
Dissecting Legacy #3: Darth Krayt vs Cade Skywalker: Rebuttal to the Rebuttal
Section I: Darth Krayt’s Intentions
I want to format this section a bit differently. Rather than direct quote responses, I will be addressing the whole of i_love_swords’ argument with the whole of mine. My write-up will also be even more informal. So, please, first read what i_love_swords wrote, absorb it fully, then come back and join me explaining why he's wrote!
To summarize i_love_swords’ argument:
Darth Krayt doesn’t give a fuck. Krayt has received several Force visions on how the war will proceed and is confident in them. As the war unfolds, Krayt is unsurprised that everything is going according to his plans. Krayt’s foremost Force vision concerns Cade Skywalker. His Force vision reveals that he will kill, bend, and break Cade Skywalker. More specifically, he will send Cade Skywalker to the brink of death and back, and this experience and other temptations will convert Cade to the dark side. Cade will no longer straddle between light or dark -- he will become “a creature of the dark.” Cade will be trained in the dark side and eventually become Krayt’s future host. Thus, Krayt is not in a hurry to defeat Cade because he is supremely confident in the outcome.
However, the issue is this conclusion does not follow from the premise -- neither directly nor even probably. Let’s first look at Cade before circling back to Krayt.
Cade believes the Force vision was shown to him with heavy intent. Cade literally speaks to the Force in response, saying he understands that this is the culmination of his life -- that this is his “destiny.” Cade concludes that he has a “job to do.” Cade later says that he understands this is what the “Force has been preparing me to do” and that he “gotta” do it. Cade then becomes a far more active participation in the war with the hope of eventually fighting Krayt. However, during the battle of Taivas, after a Sith bomber flies overhead, Cade believes that “it ends here” and he is about to die. Ergo, Cade is not under the belief that his Force vision necessarily will manifest. Later, after surviving the bombing, Cade expresses great concern that he cannot “get” to Krayt and that it seems trying seems like a “suicide run.” This again shows that Cade is not under the belief that his Force vision necessarily will manifest. When Cade fights Krayt, there is general agreement that he is fighting harder than ever. That is, his belief that it is his destiny to kill Krayt compels him to fight harder. Point being? A character can be certain something is their destiny but recognize that reality will not just warp and bend for their destiny to actualize. They must seize their destiny themselves. And they may die before they get there.
(Revan is another example of this. In Shadow of Revan, Revan believes with mouth-foaming conviction that it is his Force-determined destiny and his Force-determined destiny alone to defeat Vitiate. But this makes Revan even more fanatically-driven in all the battles leading up to his (never materializing) battle with Vitiate.)
And so just because Krayt has had a Force vision of his ultimate triumph and is confident that such will occur does not shed insight on how he plans to see that out. Cade sets a clear precedent, within the very same series, that characters do not take such an invitation to be more passive or indifferent. And that’s despite Cade being the Jedi, meaning he’s more inclined to “let things sort themselves out” than Sith who believe in bending the Force to their will. Thus, i_love_swords’ argument does not increase the probability that Krayt is holding back. However, the Cade (and Revan) precedent supports my position. Moreover, everything Krayt does in Legacy: War demonstrates that Krayt likewise understands that he must be incredibly active if he is to succeed.
(1) Krayt recognizes that he must slowly regain his power in hiding before others could know that he survived, showing a recognition that if others found him, he would die. That is, Krayt does not believe his victory is assured in all possible routes: rather, Krayt “knows” routes exist in which he wins and is trying to make that path a reality.
(2) For example, Krayt does not think the galaxy will “naturally” bend to his will -- does not think chaos and war will “naturally” occur. Krayt believes he has to do this to the galaxy himself. Krayt sees his destiny as something he must fight towards.
(3) For context for those who haven’t read Legacy: War, Krayt is planning a large battle between his forces and a Jedi + Galactic Alliance + Galactic Empire alliance on Taivas. Krayt’s plan is to have his forces fully engage with the Alliance and get battered. Once the Alliance fully invests their forces to the battle,, Krayt plans to ambush the overextended Alliance with his new army of Sith Troopers. Krayt’s plan involves not tipping off the Moffs to the Sith Troopers so they can act as better bait. This is within the context of Krayt’s “final plan to bring the galaxy to heel.”
Krayt is all about goal optimization. Krayt has had a vision of his victory and other visions of how actors will react to choices he makes on the road to his victory. Krayt wants to make sure that events that advance him to his victory materialize (e.g. not telling the Moffs about Sith Troopers) and to avoid events that negatively impact or derail his path to victory (e.g. the One Sith finding out about him too soon, the Moffs learning about the Sith Troopers). And so --
In the narrow way you’re defining it, yes, it would be “optimal” for Krayt to unload his full power on Cade. But then Krayt may not be concerned with optimisation, which would render your argument moot here.
If your proposal is that Krayt only cares about goal optimization for the minimum number of actions that ensures his success, his strategy with the Sith Troopers doesn't support that. Unless you want to argue Krayt believes the only way he can win is by making sure his Moffs play the best bait imaginable in a battle that he doesn’t even think will be the decisive battle anyway?
Krayt is demonstrably micro-optimizing his path to victory and is even stated to be “more determined than ever to crush the galaxy under his heel.” Yet your pitch is that Krayt is not “that concerned with optimization” for his final showdown that he hopes will give him the descendant of the Chosen One as his pupil and future vessel? This is an incredibly weak case.
To summarize and restate my case why it is more likely Krayt is invoking much or all of his power against Cadet than not:
(1) Cade, in a virtually identical situation to Krayt’s, sets the precedent of invoking much or all of his power to see his destiny through. (Revan, too!)
(2) Krayt in Legacy: War is described as super-duper determined to win and demonstrably micro-optimizes his prior strategies in the lead up to fighting Cade.
(3) In a vacuum, it is more likely than not that a character would give their all in the final moments leading up to their life-sought victory.
(4) Sith believe in an abuse of power and a lack of restraint. Seldom do they hold back. Again, in a vacuum, it is more likely than not that a Sith is going all-out
(5) Omega Red! Let’s talk about that.
Whether or not Omega Red would kill Cade, either outcome would be perfectly amenable to Krayt’s “vision” which involves Cade and Coruscant both dying. Krayt wants Cade so he can Transfer Essence into him. Cade dying to Omega Red would leave his body perfectly intact and Krayt has already proven he can bring a corpse back to life.
No, no, no! Krayt cannot bring a corpse back to life. He has not shown that ability.
Krayt drove his spirit deep within his body. Krayt’s body never became a corpse.
If Cade dies to Omega Red, Krayt’s explicit plan is ruined. Cade's soul is whisked away to the Netherworld... Krayt can't just grab it back. Krayt’s explicit plan is for Cade to become a “creature of dark energy” that Krayt will “teach in the ways of darkness'.” Cade will “serve at [his] side.” Krayt only plans to essence transfer into Cade after he himself “becomes dust.” This makes sense because Cade offers far greater utility as a separate agent that can destroy the Jedi than just a new body… Krayt just got a new body! He doesn’t need another one for a very long time. And so --
Krayt had the “idea” to lure Cade to Coruscant at the precise time Roan Fel would be dropping Omega Red on Coruscant.
Yes, because the two are connected. Krayt’s vision is Coruscant in flames with Cade as his Sith apprentice. Krayt lures Cade to Coruscant so he can deactivate the planetary shields (allowing Roan Fel to drop Omega Red) and then rush to fight him. Krayt has enough confidence in his abilities that he can defeat Cade before Omega Red drops. However, Krayt only ends up doing so because Antares Draco stalls Roan Fel’s activation of Omega Red, partially explaining Krayt’s increasing frustration and anger at Cade’s resistance.
And so circling back to my argument, Krayt does have to defeat Cade in a timely manner, and he doesn't even make the original deadline.
Yes Nihl, as I foresaw… Krayt is nonplussed about the ongoing situation shortly before Cade arrives, stating that things are happening as he foresaw them.
Yes…? Because they were up to that point. And Krayt knew Cade was approaching (he’s literally dragging a screaming Talon down the halls to him). However, Krayt didn’t anticipate Cade’s stiff resistance in battle.
Section II: Artwork Appeal
Point being, if you wanted to argue this is Krayt’s “full power” you would simultaneously be arguing that his “full power” looks paltry and underwhelming compared to the power displayed by probably the weakest iteration of Vong Krayt.
If true, at last, you will have provided one piece of evidence supporting the idea Krayt is not going all-out. I would still have provided more and stronger evidence, but hey, it’s a start. Let's take a look!
Krayt is clearly angry, screaming, “Die, Jedi!” as he fires Force lightning at Celeste Morne. This showcase of power:
Is no more visibly impressive than Krayt’s showcase against Cade:
You show two other panels.
This is a continuation of the prior Krayr vs Celeste panel.
If you are saying, “Look at how small the characters are to the lightning web!” notice that this lightning web is not apparent from the prior close-up panel. Which makes sense since even if you crop that image like the following, there’s no indication that the Force lightning sprawls to such heights:
Given you can't tell there's lightning sprawl in the close-up of Krayt vs Celeste (or even the cropped version of the far-away shot), you can't baselessly speculate there is none for Krayt vs Cade. All you can compare is the two close-up panels. As I said, they look quite similar.
With respect to the Force maelstrom, it’s a completely different situation. Krayt and Morne were both shooting Force lightning at one-another until Azlyn Rae stabbed Krayt in the back. Krayt visibly loses control of his powers as Morne continues to attack. Unless you think Krayt just stops using all his powers, he either continues shooting Force lightning or generates great protective energies, either of which should dramatically increase the total energies being thrown around. So, yes, I expect a situation in which you have two Krayt-tier beings unloading their powers to be visually more impressive than Krayt’s opening Force lightning attack against Krayt. This does not hurt my argument. Note a lot of the energies in the maelstrom panel are actually from the telekinetic whirlstone, anyway, and not from Force lightning.
Also, this argument as a whole ignores the fact that Force lightning can be focused. Its size is not the sole indicator of its power. Look at Dooku.
Altogether, no, I think the illustrations are consistent with expectations.
This seems the best possible moment to ever use this several-year-old quote, so I will. The inker (i.e., the guy who colors in Jan Duursema’s illustrations) of Legacy: War believes Cade and Krayt are evenly matched.
Why should you care? It’s unclear if Dan even has access to the script, but he is a professional artist who has worked with Jan Duursema for over a decade. He colored both the Celeste vs Krayt and Cade vs Krayt fights and doesn’t think Jan was trying to convey through the art any great disparity in power. Is this proof Cade and Krayt are evenly matched? No, even Jan says that Cade may only surpass Krayt “one day” (which, note, is wholly consistent with my take). But it is certainly sprinkles on top of the rest of my argument that the art doesn’t back what you’re saying.
Section III: Rumble in the Rocks!
It is telling that there’s never any actual rebuttal to pointing out Cade is in the midst of mocking Krayt and telling him he has far greater powers while this panel is happening. How one could think Cade is doing this as Krayt is “smashing Cade through the rocks” is beyond me.
(1) Cade’s body is clearly contorting in weird and uncomfortable ways, as shown by his wrist bending and overall body positioning.
In what ways? His legs are bent since he’s bouncing off the rocks. No clue why his wrists bending inward means Krayt is physically bending his wrists inward. There’s nothing about Cade’s body position itself that you cannot simultaneously perform without discomfort.
I put a Kylo Ren action figure in an identical position. Doesn’t look strange to me, especially considering he’s meant to be bouncing off a destroyed wall!
(I really couldn't help myself with this one.)
Edit: Here's an improved exampled by GhostOfGrievous:
Also, look closely Cade's jump toward Krayt. It is very visually similiar to the panel of Cade's jumping along wall!
Legs bent backwards. Right arm outstretched backwards. Left arm bent. Notice even his left wrist is still bent!
So, indeed, that is a visual of jumping, not of being telekinetically contorted.
You can even track the evolution of that pose from along the wall to off the wall (again credit to GhostOfGrievous):
(2) The very obvious TK effect drawn indicating the direction Krayt’s hand has moved from right to left.
Yes, Krayt is breaking the rocks as Cade jumps and pivots along them.
My interpretation is wholly consistent with the panel AND makes sense of the dialogue.
AND, as I said before, your interpretation that Krayt has Cade in a telekinetic grip does not follow with the next panel, in which Krayt is demanding Cade’s surrender and switching to a new ability as Cade bounces off the wall.
Did Cade break free of Krayt’s telekinetic grip? That’s incredibly impressive. As I said, Obi-Wan thinks he’s as good as dead once Dooku gets him in a telekinetic grip. In fact, I think Cade breaking out of Krayt’s telekinetic grip is more impressive than Cade dodging Krayt’s telekinetic wall break.
Did Krayt relinquish his telekinetic grip? Clearly not given he’s next shown even more angry, conjuring Force lightning and demanding Cade to surrender. If he could have downed Cade there, he clearly would have.
Section IV: Stray Arguments
I don’t really care if you think Cade bent Krayt’s messing-around Lightning (even assuming that’s what happened) when Kenobi tanks a blast of lightning from the Son on the greatest dark side nexus in existence, when the Son has no reason to care about keeping him alive and actually wants to kill him because he will try to “stop” Anakin from freeing the Son.
Obi-Wan instantly collapsed to the ground screaming at the Mortis Son’s Force lightning. You’re proposing we dismiss all Force lightning defense feats because Obi-Wan didn’t just instantly die? What a thoughtless, reckless proposal, lol.
(Note this has to do with the Force mechanics of Mortis. Mortis is a higher-level abstraction of the galaxy manifesting in a small single world. Accordingly, the Son’s galaxy-influencing powers off of Mortis materialize in much smaller, more film/TV medium-consistent feats on Mortis. Recall that Force lightning is virtually never lethal in the film/TV medium -- even Mace Windu dies from the fall, not the Force lightning itself. Moreover, as Obi-Wan enters this higher-level abstraction, his powers are explicitly and demonstrably enhanced. He serves as the stand-in for the Jedi Order during beats of the events, and Fact Files notes that Obi-Wan is so powerful on Mortis that he has subconsciously gained the power of teleportation (referencing when Obi-Wan wonders where the Father is and then suddenly appearing before his temple). So, I actually think that scene conforms fine with our versus debater sensibilities.)
But no, a single extreme apparent outlier from another realm that can actually be fully explained aside, Cade bending Krayt’s lightning away from him and partially into his lightsaber blade is absolutely informative. We know sometimes characters cannot replicate what Cade did because of too great a power disparity, the lightning is too much for the lightsaber to handle, and/or the force of the lightning blows away any lightsaber.
- Scourge and Meetra Surik seemingly cannot bend Nyriss’ lightning away or onto their blades
- Revan cannot bend Vitiate’s lightning away or onto his blade
- Members of the Act 2 Jedi Knight strike team cannot block Vitiate’s lightning with their lightsabers
- Asajj cannot bend Dooku’s lightning away or onto her blades on Rattatak
- Mace is stopped dead in his tracks and his lightsaber begins to bend back onto his face blocking Sidious’ lightning
- Yoda cannot block Sidious’ lightning with his lightsaber
- Luke cannot bend away Sidious’ lightning
Also, note I appreciate you seem to agree Cade is bending Krayt’s lightning away from him and partially into his lightsaber blade.
I don’t think there is any evidence in their fight alone that Krayt can “wave his hand this way and that and force Cade to his knees.”
Note to the reader that this used to be the i_love_swords’ position. I appreciate the change.
Appreciation counter: 2
And to repost my Talon position:
If the idea is Krayt will fight Cade assuming X power-level but suddenly Cade will suddenly jump to X+10 power-level, there’s already that threat. That’s baked into fighting Skywalkers. Cade has already shown immense dormant power that has trashed her before and performed miraculous feats.
Talon would have to be concerned that Cade will suddenly jump to, say, X+20 power-level this time -- a much higher expected power-level, even for a Skywalker. Even then, Cade’s not exactly hiding anything. Talon immediately senses his intentions burn brightly with the desire to kill Krayt. Cade unveils his new powers onto Talon, which risks Krayt sensing it. And Cade as a character is not much for subterfuge.
But it’s a definite possibility. Krayt goes in underestimating Cade then BAM! Cade blasts him with his new powers. If true, then it still follows that Krayt cannot “easily” defeat Cade. How do you define “easily”? Well, if a Krayt not-particularly-trying could wave his hand this way and that and force Cade to his knees, then what is she warning Krayt for? Cade has to be powerful enough that, at a minimum, a not-particularly-trying Krayt is in danger. Is it possible that Krayt, upon invoking much of his full power, could still readily force Cade to his knees? Yeah. The point being made is that Talon does not think a finger gesture win or anything close is realistic here.
I_love_swords seems to side with the first option -- that Talon is irrationally fearful of Cade despite that not being indicated in the comic. However, he agrees that still necessitates that Talon believe Krayt cannot just blow Cade away with the wave of his hand. As before, I am content with leaving it open to the reader whether they think Talon is more an irrational judge due to her devotion to Krayt or an accurate judge due to having a great understanding of Krayt’s power level. Any position short of Talon being a wholly irrational judge is a position that supports the thrust of my argument.
Likewise with your point about the fight’s extended length off-panel: we simply don’t know what happened
In the past, the lightsaber duel panel has been the crux of long arguments as to why Krayt is a far superior duelist. I appreciate the acknowledgment that it cannot be used in that way.
Appreciation counter: 3
Section 4: Conclusion
My Cade vs Krayt position is stronger now than ever. I_love_swords agrees with me on several points, and I’ve only further substantiated every point of disagreement. To recap:
- Talon’s testimony precludes the idea Krayt can handwave Cade and may suggest Cade can legitimately threaten Krayt
- Krayt is more likely than not using much or all of his full power because he is demonstrably micro-goal optimizing, more determined than ever to win, and has to defeat Cade quickly due to the imminent release of the Omega Red virus, among other reasons (e.g., Sith tendencies, visibly angry, at the cusp of victory, etc.)
- Cade resists three Force attacks by Krayt intended to take him down -- a Force push that he gets up from, subsequent telekinetic attacks that he dodges, and a Force lightning attack
- Cade actually bends Krayt’s angry Force lightning attack away from him and partially into his lightsaber blade
- Cade being defeated by Krayt in a lightsaber duel is not indicative of vast inferiority
To summarize the discourse in a sentence: I am arguing what is *likely* true but i_love_swords is stuck arguing what *could* be true.
My argument is based on prevailing likelihood. I substantiate every point made with more far more evidence than i_love_swords, and my proposed chronology of events better aligns with the scenes around it (e.g., in contrast to Cade breaking free of Krayt’s hold by means mysterious) and the dialogue (e.g., in contrast to Krayt ragdolling Cade as Cade mocks him and hypes himself up). There's ultimately only so much that can be written about the same few comic panels. Two people have looked at them and had a completely different interpretation. The readers will have to go through these arguments and decide for themselves which they find more compelling. I whole-heartedly believe in my case and am confident that most readers will feel the same way. If anyone wants me to address any specific point I made in further detail, let me know below or on Discord.
Never forget the face of (alleged) indifference!
Re: Reflection on my 'Dissecting Legacy' Series (Rebuttal to the Rebuttal)
August 25th 2022, 12:07 pm
Section III: Rumble in the Rocks! has been expanded with a new point and images.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: Reflection on my 'Dissecting Legacy' Series (Rebuttal to the Rebuttal)
August 28th 2022, 9:07 am
Nice discussion. Waiting for ILS response
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