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Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

January 7th 2022, 2:32 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) New_pr10

-Kyle Katarn as of Fate of the Jedi
-Mace Windu as of the beginning of Revenge of the Sith (Not Office Mace)

Rules:

-This debate concerns the Lucasfilm Licensing universe and adheres to its public and internal policies and directives.
-Quotes and stats are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
-Feats take precedence over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
-There will be 3 posts per each side and a time limit of 2 weeks per post. Extensions can be granted at the discretion of the two debaters.
-There will be no character limit.
hellothere5432
hellothere5432

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

January 7th 2022, 4:36 pm
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 228124001
hellothere5432
hellothere5432

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

January 22nd 2022, 11:44 pm
Post is nearly finished


Last edited by hellothere5432 on January 23rd 2022, 3:10 am; edited 2 times in total
hellothere5432
hellothere5432

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

January 23rd 2022, 12:58 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Mace Windu:

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Mace_w12

Let's start with Anakin just post AOTC. Where he was able to manipulate a Separatist Dreadnought into the path of speeding missiles:
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 8312055-7983402175-80320


Said Dreadnought was absolutely gargantuan. Kenobi's starship for one is an ant compared to it.

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 8312056-6347710491-65474

On it's own, this feat rivals anything you can dish out for Kyle. But we're just getting started. 
Now, Dooku's dark Jedi Acolytes like Saato can rag doll Anakin at this point:
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 8312058-8315267876-80321 
Saato is inferior to Ventress:

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 8312059-7903659213-80321
Later on in the TCW novel, Ventress notes that Kenobi is stronger than Anakin:
Obi-Wan steeled himself at the sight of the assassin. He had faced her before, and although she had never been formally trained as a Sith, her command of the dark side of the Force was strong.\"Anakin leaves quite a mess, " he replied. "Which always leads me to you, Ventress. " "Take him!" Ventress ordered the super battle droids. She ran for a side exit. Anakin Skywalker was a powerful Jedi, but she knew Obi-Wan was even stronger. wrote:Source: The Clone Wars Junior Novel
A notion corroborated by the pair's engagement, in which Kenobi casually cracks Asajj's ribs with a casual demonstration of power:
Kenobi raced away. She pursued. He's not invincible. He couldn't take Fett. But he's not trying this time. Ventress wouldn't trust Kenobi as far as she could spit. She stalked him, and this time it was his turn to leap out at her and strike. He drove her back against a wall, but she used it as a springboard to Force-push him back before hacking at him with all the raw strength she could muster. It wasn't hard to summon up. She simply saw Narec, and wanted to destroy the whole world in vengeance. Kenobi's lightsaber spun in the air. For a second she thought it was a trick; but she'd knocked it from his hand. Her blade was at his throat in a heartbeat. Kenobi looked up at her, chest rising and falling as he caught his breath. \"Okay, Ventress, are you going to gloat and give me a speech on the futility of my mission?" "No," she said. "I'm just going to kill you." Then he threw her backward with a Force push. She hit a column hard enough to hear something crack, and staggered to her feet. Kenobi summoned his lightsaber back to his hand with a grin. wrote:Source: The Clone Wars Novel
There is clearly a vast gap between Kenobi and Anakin at this point in time. However this would change as the two leap frogged one another throughout the war.  

During the Rise of the Cortosis Battle Droids (10 months post Battle of Geonosis) Anakin would face a doppleganger of Dooku. Said doppleganger defeated Kenobi in The New Droid Army:
[size=16]"Where is Master Kenobi?"

"Wounded in the fight against Dooku. The Force will mend his wounds in time."

- The New Droid Army
[/size]
The Doppelganger technique uses half of the user's power:
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Dopple10  
 Dooku's doppelgänger loses to Anakin, when he is pushed into a rage induced frenzy:   
 
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Xgyz3qW  
 
4 months later however, despite Anakin being pushed into the same rage induced frenzy over the same subject matter, he is completely dominated by Obi Wan. Hitting Anakin  with what felt like starships to subdue him:

“My SLIME-DOG mother is DEAD!” Halagad snarled. “My MAGGOT-FORNICATING father is DEAD! They were … THEY WERE EATEN ALIVE! By that … psychotic, putrefying, dung-swollen spawn of evil I sent to Molator!” Devastation welled in his eyes. “Do you understand?! You arrogant, stone-hearted slave bastar—” He never finished. For Anakin, sensitive Anakin—born to slavery, son of prophecy, a man wholly unable to let die nor die to his boyish truths—had saved all his self-poisoning fear, all his self-immolating anger, all his self-devouring suffering—his deepest, most desperate and suffocating secret—for last. “SHE DIED IN MY ARMS! YOU SNIVELING, JEDI REJECT! BUT AT LEAST YOU HAD A FATHER!” Words-only words. But they exploded from Anakin with the unbridled seismic energy of a thousand volcanic powers. The psychic payload blasted Halagad airborne and nearly impaled him on his own lightsaber as it flew from his mutilated grip. Like a thunderbolt, Anakin lunged to his feet over his defenseless Jedi brother, Obi-Wan's lightsaber in hand. He ratcheted the blazing laser sword back and overhead like the apparition of death- \"ANAKIN! ANAKIN, NO!" -and screaming down. A pitiless crack slammed into Anakin's entire body, like a fleet of starship-sized colossus wasps suiciding into a moon, skidding him across the scathing gravel. Obi-Wan lowered the palm of his unsteady right hand as Anakin looked up, eyes wild with recrimination. - Skyewalkers wrote:“My SLIME-DOG mother is DEAD!” Halagad snarled. “My MAGGOT-FORNICATING father is DEAD! They were … THEY WERE EATEN ALIVE! By that … psychotic, putrefying, dung-swollen spawn of evil I sent to Molator!” Devastation welled in his eyes. “Do you understand?! You arrogant, stone-hearted slave bastar—”
He never finished. For Anakin, sensitive Anakin—born to slavery, son of prophecy, a man wholly unable to let die nor die to his boyish truths—had saved all his self-poisoning fear, all his self-immolating anger, all his self-devouring suffering—his deepest, most desperate and suffocating secret—for last.

“SHE DIED IN MY ARMS! YOU SNIVELING, JEDI REJECT! BUT AT LEAST YOU HAD A FATHER!”

Words-only words. But they exploded from Anakin with the unbridled seismic energy of a thousand volcanic powers. The psychic payload blasted Halagad airborne and nearly impaled him on his own lightsaber as it flew from his mutilated grip. 

Like a thunderbolt, Anakin lunged to his feet over his defenseless Jedi brother, Obi-Wan's lightsaber in hand. He ratcheted the blazing laser sword back and overhead like the apparition of death- 

"ANAKIN! ANAKIN, NO!" -and screaming down. 

A pitiless crack slammed into Anakin's entire body, like a fleet of starship-sized colossus wasps suiciding into a moon, skidding him across the scathing gravel. Obi-Wan lowered the palm of his unsteady right hand as Anakin looked up, eyes wild with recrimination.

Source: Skyewalkers
After Anakin’s knighting Obi-Wan is caught in an explosion during an attack on Coruscant and is severely injured:

And then the explosions. The light came first, a bright blossoming of scarlet and orange edged in black. Directly below him. Off to his left, then his right. Straight ahead. Hard on their heels came the shock waves, as though an invisible hand had seized the air and shaken it like a blanket. The waves blasted over him in scorching roils of heat, flinging his citibike end over end. Last of all the dreadful sound, a deep and rolling boom boom boom boom, the echoes multiplying and magnifying as they bounced from building to swaying, shuddering, disintegrating building. And suddenly the bright Coruscant sky was full of metal debris and bodies, of airspeeders and maxitaxis and gracious air gondolas, tossed like leaves in an unforgiving storm. Helplessly tumbling, Obi-Wan summoned the Force and wrenched his citibike aside just in time to avoid a burning two-seater...and was struck from behind by an out-of-control speeder bus laden with screaming passengers. Pain. Surprise. A detached and baffled anger. This can't be right. No, no, this is wrong. Yet still he was falling...and falling...and- During which he was severely burned and suffered a multitude of other injuries. \"Concussion," he mumbled. "Broken hand. Broken leg. Broken shoulder. Cracked pelvis. Four broken ribs and a punctured lung. One or two internal organs jostled a bit." wrote: Source: Wild Space
Later, despite  not fully recovering from these injuries, Obi-Wan went on a mission with Bail Organa to Zigoola. A personal trap designed to consume Jedi. 


Obi-Wan plucked a stem of grass and considered it, his face grave. Stroked a fingertip down its blue-green length. Then he shivered. \"Do you know, Master Yoda," he said, his voice very low, "there is more of the light side in this sliver of grass than I could feel in my whole body while I was on Zigoola. It was..." He exhaled, so slowly. "...the most empty, the most lonely, the most bereft I have ever felt. Worse even than all the deaths I relived, so many times, as though each time was the first." He let the blade of grass slip from his fingers, his gaze roaming across the arboretum wrote:Source: Wild Space
Interfering with Obi-Wan connection from light years away and eluding his senses. Despite Kenobi being able to casually scan the outer rim and their hyperlanes earlier.

For his own part, he turned captivity to his advantage, surrendering himself to the kind of deep meditations usually practiced by Jedi on retreat or committed to the contemplative life. To his relief, he could sense no lowering danger. No threat from Grievous to these distant hyperlanes. Which wasn't surprising. There was little out here for the Republic to want. And if the Republic didn't want it, neither did Dooku and his Separatists. What he did perceive, in glimpses, were some of the Jedi's Outer Rim campaigns. Adi Gallia triumphant on Agomar. Ki-Adi-Mundi defeated almost to death on Barab I. Eeth Koth defending the besieged people of Korriban, surrounded by drifts of dead and dying clone troopers. Saesee Tiin in desperate straits closer to the Core, on Bimmisaari-but no. No, that was not now, that was then. A trade dispute of the past, long since peacefully settled. He caught a single impression of Anakin, more feeling than vision. Sorrow. Frustration. A crushing fear of failure. He couldn't find that wretched droid. Well, try harder, Anakin. Did you think I was joking? … No matter how hard he tried, how deeply he meditated, he could sense nothing about Zigoola. And he should be able to. It was one of his particular talents, the ability to sense the shape of things to come. This close to Zigoola he should be able to feel something. But all he'd achieved with his meditation was that one annihilating dream. - Wild Space wrote:For his own part, he turned captivity to his advantage, surrendering himself to the kind of deep meditations usually practiced by Jedi on retreat or committed to the contemplative life. To his relief, he could sense no lowering danger. No threat from Grievous to these distant hyperlanes. Which wasn't surprising. There was little out here for the Republic to want. And if the Republic didn't want it, neither did Dooku and his Separatists.

What he did perceive, in glimpses, were some of the Jedi's Outer Rim campaigns. Adi Gallia triumphant on Agomar. Ki-Adi-Mundi defeated almost to death on Barab I. Eeth Koth defending the besieged people of Korriban, surrounded by drifts of dead and dying clone troopers. Saesee Tiin in desperate straits closer to the Core, on Bimmisaari-but no. No, that was not now, that was then. A trade dispute of the past, long since peacefully settled.

He caught a single impression of Anakin, more feeling than vision. Sorrow. Frustration. A crushing fear of failure. He couldn't find that wretched droid.

Well, try harder, Anakin. Did you think I was joking?

(…)

No matter how hard he tried, how deeply he meditated, he could sense nothing about Zigoola. And he should be able to. It was one of his particular talents, the ability to sense the shape of things to come.

This close to Zigoola he should be able to feel something. But all he'd achieved with his meditation was that one annihilating dream.

Source: Wild Space
Zigoola also managed to drain Kenobi to near a corpse from orbit.

And draining Kenobi to near a corpse from orbit. Kenobi was on his knees, his face gray, the whites of his eyes turned a gaudy blood red. Sweat poured off him, soaking his battle-scorched Jedi tunic, and he clung to the comsat seat as though it were his last hope of survival. ……. Then Kenobi's face twisted, and he began to shake, bone-deep tremors that chattered his teeth and shivered his hair. Bail heard the man's harsh breath, rasping. Come on, Kenobi, come on. You've beaten the Sith before. You can beat them again. He stared out of the viewport, starving for air. He could count the trees now, they were so close to the ground. Count the trees, count the rocks, imagine the pain as they punched Zigoola's grim surface. They flashed over something-an elaborate black structure-the Sith temple? Too late, they were gone, he'd most likely imagined it. Closer to the ground now-nearly there-nearly there- Kenobi howled, a shocking sound of rage and pain. His hand on the helm controls wrenched their small ship's nose up, dropped its tail, dropped speed, tried to undo what he had done. And then, still howling, he let go of the helm completely. Unfisted his other hand, finger by finger, and turned away from the sight of oncoming death. Blood was pouring from his eyes, his nose, his mouth. He looked like a bleeding ghost, blood jeweled in his beard. Wild Space Essentially the planet used of combination of a Death Field and Drain Life to attempt to turn Kenobi into a skeleton However despite his preexisting injuries and such Kenobi used a massive burst of Force Light to temporally neutralize the nexus and save the crashing cruiser Released from that pitiless fist, gasping, Bail flinched as the Jedi's arms closed hard about him, smothered him like a desperate parent trying to protect his child. He felt a rush of heat. Felt the cockpit warp. Marveled at the way the air seemed to turn gold. Fear ceased. Anguish ceased. He felt safe and calm. Serene. Breha. And then the ship's belly struck the first of the trees with a shriek like a cat's claws along the metal hull. It ripped through their foliage, splintering their branches, shredding their leaves. The ship slewed wildly, like a maddened harpooned whale. As the strident crash alarms blared, the emergency impact bags deployed-but imperfectly. One ballooned out, one didn't, and the ship began to roll. Bail felt the cockpit tip, slowly, felt himself and Kenobi obediently follow. Time slowed down, stretching like warm caramel taffy. With a sound as loud as the universe's creation the ship struck the hard ground. Metal groaned and buckled. Transparisteel shattered. Flesh tore. The golden light vanished...and reality disappeared. ….. \"I understand that," Organa said calmly. "And I agree, it's a risk. But you've already proven you can beat them. I believe you can beat them again." Obi-Wan stared, puzzled. "What are you talking about?" "You don't remember? On the ship, before we crashed." "No. It's all a blur." "Whatever hold the Sith had on you? You broke it. Just before we hit the ground. It nearly killed you, but you broke it. You pulled us out of our nose dive and you-did something with the Force. I don't know what, but it's the reason we're not in the same shape as the ship." Organa shook his head, rueful. "Why do you think I can't stay mad at you?" wrote: Source: Wild Space
Essentially the planet used of combination of a Death Field and Drain Life to try turn Kenobi into a skeleton.

However despite his preexisting injuries and such Kenobi manages to use a massive burst of Force Light to temporally neutralize the nexus and save the crashing cruiser:
Released from that pitiless fist, gasping, Bail flinched as the Jedi's arms closed hard about him, smothered him like a desperate parent trying to protect his child. He felt a rush of heat. Felt the cockpit warp. Marveled at the way the air seemed to turn gold. Fear ceased. Anguish ceased. He felt safe and calm. Serene. Breha. And then the ship's belly struck the first of the trees with a shriek like a cat's claws along the metal hull. It ripped through their foliage, splintering their branches, shredding their leaves. The ship slewed wildly, like a maddened harpooned whale. As the strident crash alarms blared, the emergency impact bags deployed-but imperfectly. One ballooned out, one didn't, and the ship began to roll. Bail felt the cockpit tip, slowly, felt himself and Kenobi obediently follow. Time slowed down, stretching like warm caramel taffy. With a sound as loud as the universe's creation the ship struck the hard ground. Metal groaned and buckled. Transparisteel shattered. Flesh tore. The golden light vanished...and reality disappeared. ….. \"I understand that," Organa said calmly. "And I agree, it's a risk. But you've already proven you can beat them. I believe you can beat them again." Obi-Wan stared, puzzled. "What are you talking about?" "You don't remember? On the ship, before we crashed." "No. It's all a blur." "Whatever hold the Sith had on you? You broke it. Just before we hit the ground. It nearly killed you, but you broke it. You pulled us out of our nose dive and you-did something with the Force. I don't know what, but it's the reason we're not in the same shape as the ship." Organa shook his head, rueful. "Why do you think I can't stay mad at you?" wrote: Source: Wild Space
Regardless,  after Obi-Wan performs this feat and endures the ordeal on Zigoola he continues to fight and grow in the Clone wars. Despite this, Kenobi still pales compared to someone like Dooku:
With Dooku managing to deflect what Kenobi and Fisto were unable to, on his own.

After this point Dooku continued to grow up to Dark Rendezvous, where he was a stated equal of Windu:
The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light. wrote:Source: Dark Rendezvous

And Windu only continued to grow up to ROTS.
Leaving us with:

ROTS Windu > DR Windu = DR Dooku >> S2 Kenobi  > Wild Space Kenobi - Neutralising Zigoola + saving crashing cruiser > Skyewalker's Kenobi > Enraged Skyewalker's Anakin > TNDA Enraged Anakin > TNDA Kenobi > TCW Movie Obi Wan >> TCW Movie Ventress > Saato >> Post AOTC  Anakin > Dreadnought

When looking at the absurd level of power this affords Mace, there is simply no chance for Kyle Katarn here. He is well and truly, hopelessly outmatched.

Now let's touch on lightsaber combat:

Lightsaber Combat:



Windu's aforementioned parity with Dooku gives the former access to all of Dooku's feats and accolades from before DR. Including but not limiting to:

His prowess was both exceptional and deadly, and many regarded him as one of the greatest warriors in the history of the Order. He was fully aware that his apprentice would eventually engage in duels against other Jedi, and believed Dooku's emphasis on pure lightsabre combat to be a tremendous advantage. wrote:Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 68
His mastery of the Makashi Lightsaber form is unmatched, and all but the most skilled Jedi would fall against him in combat. wrote:
Source: The Clone Wars: Lightsaber duels

Countless more could be unearthed but I think the point stands - Dooku's accolades are extremely impressive. Also note, the first accolade mention Dooku as a Jedi, before his vast growth as a Sith:

\"I have spent the last ten years learning to use the power of the Dark Side. It gives me infinitely greater power. wrote:Source:http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Attack-of-the-Clones.html
Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself. wrote:Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelisation
However, once Dooku left the Jedi Order to become an apprentice to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, his skills became even more formidable. wrote:Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 68

I also wish to highlight, this one particular accolade from Jedi Dooku - him being a better duelist than any Jedi ever as of TPM save Yoda and Mace. This would include the likes of Novel Revan for one, who speaks for himself really, as well as countless other's. It is truly an incredible accolade, and for DR Mace to scale so far over this feat is incredibly impressive.

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself. Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself. wrote:Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

Conclusion:





  • Mace is comfortably more powerful combatant.
  • Mace is the superior duelist here.
  • Mace takes this solidly.

Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

January 30th 2022, 5:56 am

Chuck Norris vs SLJ

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Image1


I'll start off with responding to some of your points and then I'll move on to my opener.


Responses:



Right off the bat, I'll just say, as you haven't factored Kyle into any of your arguments, I can safely ignore them and move onto my own chains but I believe there's some things here I need to address before going forward.


hellothere5432 wrote:Let's start with Anakin just post AOTC. Where he was able to manipulate a Separatist Dreadnought into the path of speeding missiles:
--
Said Dreadnought was absolutely gargantuan. Kenobi's starship for one is an ant compared to it.
--
On it's own, this feat rivals anything you can dish out for Kyle. But we're just getting started.
Not quite. Remember Kyle was able to beat Desann, who in a less powerful state was able to briefly break through Luke's passive force barrier and push him back.

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Jedi_Knight_2_Jedi_Outcast_Luke_vs_Desann

Now I won't say Desann has any measure of parity with NR Luke. But to be able to push him back and/or break through his robust force barrier with TK is no mean feat.

Certainly scaling above Anakin's feat is decent hype for Mace but to paraphrase Dooku: It's obvious this debate cannot be decided by out TK feats. But by our scaling chains.

There's more I can mention regarding this feat and mediums and such but that's all for now.


hellothere5432 wrote:4 months later however, despite Anakin being pushed into the same rage induced frenzy over the same subject matter, he is completely dominated by Obi Wan. Hitting Anakin  with what felt like starships to subdue him:
Kenobi is just breaking up the fight here. Anakin's rage at this moment was focused of Ventor. All intents and purposes, it was a sucker punch. There's no real telling what would happen if Anakin and Kenobi faced off.


hellothere5432 wrote:After this point Dooku continued to grow up to Dark Rendezvous, where he was a stated equal of Windu:
I question this. There are far more sources with higher authority and more recency that would realistically place WIndu well below Dooku.

Mace was below Dooku when he was still a Jedi.

Jedi Dooku:

And you've already provided a couple quotes that support Dooku's immense growth upon falling to the dark side. And we know that the dark side offers power faster. So the existing gap between Mace and Jedi Dooku grows rather substantially.

Furthermore, Dooku as of AOTC is about on par with AOTC Yoda as per multiple sources:

AOTC Yoda~AOTC Dooku:

And of course, Windu is Yoda's inferior as shown in the Power of the Jedi quote above and YDR.

"Duty calls," Palpatine said, moving to cut the comm channel. Then he paused. "Master Windu, since we are being frank with one another today, let me add that in these briefings I wish to hear your own unvarnished opinions-not what you think Master Yoda would have said. He is a great being-perhaps the greatest in the Republic. But Master Yoda is a teacher at heart. You are a warrior. Regrettably, this sad age of the world may be your time more than his."

"Master Yoda is many things, and I am not his equal in peace or war," Mace said.

-Yoda, Dark Rendezvous

Mace's inferiority to Dooku doesn't stop there however. In The Clone Wars: Republic Heroes, which takes place not too long after AOTC, Kenobi and Windu fight Dooku.

Republic Heroes:

Interestingly enough, this fight ends in somewhat of a stalemate. With the platform they're all on crumbling and neither side appearing to be tired or defeated.

Fight end:

So at best, with the help of Post S1 Obi Wan, Windu can potentially stalemate post AOTC Dooku.

Now of course, both Dooku and Windu grow throughout the course of the war but there's no indication that Windu's growth was big enough to overtake Dooku, who had clear supremacy for quite some time. On the contrary, WOTC implies Mace didn't really grow:

In this case, the two versions of Mace Windu aren't necessarily supposed to be "Mace Windu, pre-Clone Wars" and "Mace Windu, post-Clone Wars." In fact, their identical Hit Points, Defense, Attack, and Damage scores strongly imply that there isn't much experience and growth between them. Instead, the primary differences between these two figures involve which special abilities and Force powers are emphasized for the sake of flavor and playability.

-Jedi Counseling 80 https://web.archive.org/web/20080503150127/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20051215jc80



hellothere5432 wrote:I also wish to highlight, this one particular accolade from Jedi Dooku - him being a better duelist than any Jedi ever as of TPM save Yoda and Mace. This would include the likes of Novel Revan for one, who speaks for himself really, as well as countless other's. It is truly an incredible accolade, and for DR Mace to scale so far over this feat is incredibly impressive.
The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48 was released in 2010. The Revan Novel was released in 2011.

Also it's important to note that this quote says "one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced" meaning even if it did have the Revan novel in mind, it wouldn't necessarily bind novel Revan below Dooku. The gap between them could be massive for all we know. Though I doubt it even had him in mind to begin with.


Now that I'm done with my responses, I'll move on to my own opener.


The Might of Kyle Katarn



Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Image_1


Hype:



Kyle Katarn was a top tier Jedi in his era. A combat veteran before he even became a Jedi. I mean, hell, he was soloing installations full of Stormtroopers even without the force.
NRI Report:

He becomes a combat instructor and the Order's second Battlemaster, succeeding Kam Solusar (which implies supremacy in skill over Solusar) only a couple years (12-19 ABY) after he rejoins Luke's order after an extended period of leaving the Force behind. No mean feat. As we'll see, Katarn has amazing growth.

JATM:

As a Battlemaster, Katarn is top of the order in dueling skill. (With obvious exceptions like Luke or Caedus ofc)

Battlemaster:

More hype Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 3344068304
Chuck Norris:

You get the picture. Katarn ain't no pushover. He's had training from the best of both worlds. Both as a normal soldier/commando and as a Jedi.

Now lets move on to the good stuff.


Scaling:

As I've pointed out earlier, Mace isn't really close to Dooku. He was sub Jedi Dooku and he has nothing that indicates his own growth was enough to overtake Dooku. Especially given the Count's dark side immersion. Far more recent sources also place him a good distance below Dooku.

On 22 BBY, during the Mission to Ruul, Mace fought Ventress. While he was solidly above her, it is noted it took "all his skills" to defeat her.

Ruul Fight:

In Cestus Deceptiton, Ventress muses that she had "come within a hairbreadth of defeating him.":

Cestus Deception:

Now while this could partially be attributed to Ventress' arrogance, she wouldn't exactly be saying this if she was a stomp gap below Windu, would she?

Flash forward a year, on 21 BBY, Windu fights Ventress again in a TCW comic. This time on Coruscant. They duel relatively evenly despite her only using one blade. (Which puts her at a bit of a disadvantage as a Jar'kai specialist.)

God, this art is fucking trash:

While Windu is above Ventress, unfortunately for him, it's not by a large margin.

How does Katarn factor into this? Lets start at the beginning. Jerec was stated to be about Vader tier.

Vader tier:

Once he tapped in to the Valley's power, Jerec became far, far, far, far more powerful,

Valley Jerec:

But how does Mace factor into this? As of 2005, In a miniatures scenario, Trainee Kyle is held at around Ventress tier. And Jerec at Dooku tier. We can safely assume it's the Ventress we see in either of the above encounters. (Early war Ventress.)

Kyle~Ventress:

Despite the gap in power, Kyle still defeats Jerec. Due to destiny/prophecy and certain unique techniques like the force cocoon.

Conditions:

Bear in mind. This is DF 2 Kyle. Mere days/weeks after he picked up a lightsaber. And he's being held at Ventress tier. He would go on to grow immensely over the next ~30 years.

Growth:

There's far more. But you get the idea. FOTJ Kyle would be massively above DF2 Kyle.

So we're left with the below chain:

FOTJ Kyle > > > > > DF2 Kyle ~ Early War Ventress < < Early War Mace < ~ BoROTS Mace


SAGA and D20



Now lets compare Mace and Kyle's SAGA and D20 stat blocks.

Windu's D20 stats hold him at level 18. End of NJO Kyle is also held at level 18. Bear in mind, this is ~15 years before FOTJ. Whereas Mace's stats portray him as of around Attack of the Clones. Windu has a much smaller ceiling for growth.

D20:

Now lets look at SAGA:

Windu is held at a whopping CL 19. Very impressive. However, so is Katarn.

SAGA:

And this is a pre prime Kyle as well. Before he became a member of the New Jedi Order High Council. Note that the NJO High Council was founded in 35 ABY during the Dark Nest Crisis. So this stat block portrays pre 35 ABY Kyle. And it outright says the best to come for him.

Pre Prime:

So the scaling chains would look something like:

-FOTJ Kyle > > > End of NJO Kyle ~ AOTC Mace < < BoROTS Mace
-FOTJ Kyle > > > Pre 35 ABY Kyle ~ CW Mace < ~ BoROTS Mace

One thing to note, the above chains are the best case scenario for Windu. As the Clone Wars era campaign guide puts him above Dooku, which goes against later and higher level sources. So we could safely write off Windu's block.

Dookster:


Conclusion/recap:



-Windu is below Dooku by a decent amount.
-Katarn has impressive hype as a duelist and overall combatant.
-Katarn has scaling that has him punching up to Windu tier very early on in his career. With growth, he should be above Windu.
-Stats support the idea of Katarn being above Windu and gives him a higher ceiling to grow.


That concludes my first post. I will be exploring more accolades, scaling, and evidence in the posts to come.  Look forward to seeing where this goes.


Kyle Katarn doesn't use the Force. The Force uses Kyle Katarn.

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Normal_Chuck_Norris_Jedi_Master
hellothere5432
hellothere5432

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

January 30th 2022, 11:20 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Nice work. Response will be out in a week or so.
hellothere5432
hellothere5432

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

February 20th 2022, 4:28 am

Counters:




As you noted, this was merely a breakthrough of his passive barrier. It's not any way to scale Desann and by extension Kyle, over Luke's feats.



Obi-Wan being able to not only punch through Anakin’s barriers in his berserker state, but break his focus and snap him out is certainly a showing of superiority and considerable superiority at that.


Said sparring sessions all occurred before TPM, rendering them void. Mace was noted to have surpassed Dooku before the latter left the Order, signifying significant growth:
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Rjbl_VA_DnEu4M4nOt6txb1Z16PbkNPzlxa4AT_F3kps3PyyHpn7--x_LrAiWOJ9ACZBvVb7nDQexh4zbaRQ0JUu7d_rbJO7aZShyBklzdAGt3XJpZB3Szvx7Fs9Cbqvek-l8vyh
Source: Star Wars: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

As well as another quote saying all three were peers:
Only Masters Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to be on equal terms with him[Dooku].   Source: Insider 109: wrote:



*TPM Mace. Even if we were to accept TPM Dooku > TPM Mace (which isn't the case), it would still be irrelevant given the growth Mace underwent later on.



Hardly. All it would mean is that Mace grew at a similar rate.



DR Yoda and AOTC Yoda are very different power wise. DR Dooku himself lost his fight with Yoda, with the latter even being able to "annihilate" him once he tapped into the nexus on Vjun:

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.  "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"  "That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."  As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.  "I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.  "Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."  "I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.  Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.  "Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"  Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.  "Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "  Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.  "Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.  "I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.  Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.  "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."  Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.  "A choice made, have you, Count?"  "I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."  Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.  "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."  Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.  "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"  And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. —Yoda:

So no, Mace being Yoda's inferior in no way equates to him being Dooku's inferior seeing as how the Count lost to DR Yoda.


Dooku fending off both for a long period doesn't equate to any form of vast superiority over Mace. It's been consistently shown throughout SW that one fighter on the same level as two other fighter's can fend off/match the duo for long periods.  TCW Ventress vs Anakin and Obi Wan is a prime example:


Here Ventress proves able to fend off both Jedi at once. Despite being consistently placed as peers of them individually throughout TCW. A notion corroborated by Ventress and Anakin's duel earlier that season:


Furthemore Mace and Dooku fought later on in the war, at the Battle of Boz Pity:
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 8307969-screenshot_20211228-195014
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 8307970-screenshot_20211228-195055
Now you could argue that said encounter was brief, therefore unusable however this is easily remedied by Dooku earlier telling his magna guards not to intervene against the Jedi, yet they did so against Mace. Insinuating Mace to have been winning:
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 8307968-screenshot_20211228-194953

Said quote can be countered by Ventress scaling and Mace's parity with Dooku throughout the war which will be addressed later on.



I concede this point. Still it matter's little, given Mace's scaling over Dooku's feats.

Kyle Katarn








These are nice and all however you have presented nothing insinuating Mace isn't capable of replicating any of these feats or enjoying similar accolades.






While I won't deny Mace being peers of Ventress during these points in time, it's irrelevant given the later scaling Mace get's from enjoying parity with Dooku per both DR and their fight in Boca Pity.
The same Dooku who dominated Ventress in DR:





A notion reinforced by their fight in S3. In which Dooku is stated to be far more powerful than Ventress and Savage Oppress, an insanely powerful being in his own right:



So essentially:
Late War Mace ~ Dooku > > > > >  Ventress. Rendering your scaling chain void.

Addressed Windu's growth above. Really this point doesn't lead anywhere as there is no way to determine exactly which out of the two grew more.

Quote is citing CW Mace, as the description is purely about CW Mace. Rendering it void.

We can also compare other stats placing Mace over Katarn:
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Mace_windu_jedi
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 7311113-7309180-kyle%27s%20cart

Lightsaber combat

I've already addressed Mace's superiority to Katarn in the force. However now I feel as though his lightsaber abilities now need some light shed on them, to truly emphasise how outclassed Katarn is here.

Firstly let's look at Mace's own accolades:
Mace is considered unmatched skill wise as a duelist as of ROTS:
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) SMBMZTvRGU0ZCPUbS1QUS4CCqHbo5RLkcGZN7Uxq5KtJ_PX6-VdEuQBWJYm6i6bF6xERh3fzNiKS-lQhlJcF3Ya_t4hdP6tEnQy3E1diXQDZHhsLY1UJrrXKBEUeoFh9mLjJRqfA
Source: Order of the Jedi: Mace Windu
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Mace_skill
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Mace_skill_2
Placing him above the likes of ROTS Sidious, Dooku and Yoda in terms of skill. Who's skill as fighters honestly  speak for themselves. Kyle is well and truly outclassed here.
And given the aforementioned detailing of Mace's parity with Dooku, we can scale Mace to all of Dooku's feats. Including but not limited to:

Stomping AOTC Anakin and Obi Wan:







Matching AOTC Yoda:







There are many more showings from the Count to dish out but I think the point stands. Katarn is simply outclassed here. Note, Dooku's showings in AOTC occurred when he was significantly pre-prime, as he increased significantly during the war. Making Mace's parity with Dooku all the more impressive.
Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) 6617426-6503048-0451794804-3sgzl

Conclusion

- Refuted my opponents arguments against my original scaling chain.
- Mace is a peer of Dooku.
- Mace in no way scales to Ventress.
- Mace has stats placing him over Katarn.
- Mace's overall lightsaber prowess surpasses Katarn.
- Mace takes this more often than not
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

March 5th 2022, 8:10 am

Do ya feel Lucky, Punk?


Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Kyle_katarn_sketch_card_by_quickman012_d97tpj3-fullview



Responses:



hellothere5432 wrote:As you noted, this was merely a breakthrough of his passive barrier. It's not any way to scale Desann and by extension Kyle, over Luke's feats.
Of course. It was never my argument that Desann scales near Luke. Just that him breaking the potent passive barrier of Luke is impressive. As is him not getting immediately curbstomped. However, this isn't really important to my overall argument.


hellothere5432 wrote:Obi-Wan being able to not only punch through Anakin’s barriers in his berserker state, but break his focus and snap him out is certainly a showing of superiority and considerable superiority at that.
Sucker-punching someone isn't that impressive. In fact, that's what Desann did to Luke. Whatever the case, as with the above, this isn't really important to either of our arguments.


hellothere5432 wrote:Said sparring sessions all occurred before TPM, rendering them void. Mace was noted to have surpassed Dooku before the latter left the Order, signifying significant growth:
For one, the quotes I've sent outright says Mace was bested in combat. Those are the results of spars. The Starships and Vehicles quote doesn't necessitate that Dooku lost to Windu. Only that Windu was a greater swordsman. What exactly does this mean? Windu, though potentially better in martial arts ability can still be sub Dooku overall.

However, lets assume TPM Mace>TPM Dooku for a second, Dooku had massive dark side growth. Which offers power faster. I see no reason to believe that Mace's growth can outstrip Dooku's.


hellothere5432 wrote:As well as another quote saying all three were peers:
It says "were considered to be on equal terms" which just means that the order saw them at around the same level. You tell me what's more reliable. Fights in which Mace lost to Dooku and Yoda? Or the perception of the order?

You can argue that Mace had some degree of parity with Jedi Dooku despite being sub. However it won't exactly amount to much given Dooku's massive growth as mentioned earlier.

Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Unknown

-Insider 109


hellothere5432 wrote:Hardly. All it would mean is that Mace grew at a similar rate.
That's the kicker here. Dooku grows massively due to the dark side. What exactly does Mace have that would skyrocket him to the same degree? I'm willing to buy that he grows. Hell I'm willing to buy that he substantially grows. But at the same rate and to the same degree? There really isn't any evidence for that.


hellothere5432 wrote:DR Yoda and AOTC Yoda are very different power wise. DR Dooku himself lost his fight with Yoda, with the latter even being able to "annihilate" him once he tapped into the nexus on Vjun:
--
So no, Mace being Yoda's inferior in no way equates to him being Dooku's inferior seeing as how the Count lost to DR Yoda.
Well, dark side Yoda would definitely be a beast. No denying that. But that doesn't exactly save Windu in any way. There's no evidence DR or ROTS Windu is above the AOTC Yoda class.


hellothere5432 wrote:Dooku fending off both for a long period doesn't equate to any form of vast superiority over Mace. It's been consistently shown throughout SW that one fighter on the same level as two other fighter's can fend off/match the duo for long periods.  TCW Ventress vs Anakin and Obi Wan is a prime example:
--
Here Ventress proves able to fend off both Jedi at once. Despite being consistently placed as peers of them individually throughout TCW. A notion corroborated by Ventress and Anakin's duel earlier that season:
A couple things:

1: The fight wasn't all that protracted. In fact, here's a play by play based on the clip you sent.

Play By Play:


Point is it's not that long and she gets tagged multiple times. And she clearly doesn't do too well when they work in concert. Furthermore, it's clear that she had a rage amp in the fight. Not the best evidence to point to.

2: Now even if I'm completely off in the above point, it's explicitly the game's intent that Dooku is beyond Mace and Kenobi. Only through environmental factors can Dooku be beaten:

Spoiler:


hellothere5432 wrote:Furthemore Mace and Dooku fought later on in the war, at the Battle of Boz Pity:
Interesting you should choose to bring up this fight as it's actually far more favorable for Dooku. Lets break it down play by play:

Play By Play:


hellothere5432 wrote:Now you could argue that said encounter was brief, therefore unusable however this is easily remedied by Dooku earlier telling his magna guards not to intervene against the Jedi, yet they did so against Mace. Insinuating Mace to have been winning:
Most droids don't really act on their own volition to this degree. The droids pulled Mace down on Dooku's orders. Mace and Dooku's dialogue here supports that.

Dialogue:

You could argue that it would have been a protracted duel had the guards not shown up and that that would give Mace parity with Dooku. However, that's doubtful given Mace's other lower performances that we've looked into + Dooku's performance here was very favorable towards him anyway.

However, to further hammer this point home, lets look at how both Dooku and Windu fared against a common opponent, Grievous:

When they fought in Labyrinth of Evil, it was atop a train. Grievous' movements were restricted because he had to cling onto the train with his feet. Putting him at a disadvantage. Despite this, he performed rather well against Windu.

Disadvantage:

Windu was unable to beat Grievous in sabers. He had to resort to using a force push.

Push:

To further support this, Mace believed himself unable to take on Grievous alone in Battlefront: Elite Squadron. Needing the help of X2.

Elite Squadron:

And unlike Windu, Dooku is unquestionably superior to Grievous

Dooku>Grievous:

And Dooku believes he can demonstrate the dueling skill of a bunch of notable Jedi including Mace. Note also that this includes Yoda. Whom is superior to Mace. Dooku believes he can fight on Yoda's level and style. Which further supports his significant superiority to Windu.

Spoiler:


Now lets move onto your points regarding Katarn:


hellothere5432 wrote:These are nice and all however you have presented nothing insinuating Mace isn't capable of replicating any of these feats or enjoying similar accolades.
I know. I just wanted to establish Katarn's hype. However...... now that you bring this up.....

Gank:

Lets contrast that with how the same source depicts Katarn (all before he even picked up a saber):

Hype:

This is unimportant to either of our main arguments, but.... just thought I oughta bring it up anyway.


hellothere5432 wrote:While I won't deny Mace being peers of Ventress during these points in time, it's irrelevant given the later scaling Mace get's from enjoying parity with Dooku per both DR and their fight in Boca Pity.
If Windu as per your own words had parity with Ventress in the early war, why exactly would he skyrocket from that tier to being close to DR Dooku? We really don't really have any lore reason for such a thing. Sure he could grow in the war, but that drastically? I don't see any reason to believe that.

The problem with using Windu's accolade from DR and his fight in Boz Pity (even if we were to grant that it gives him parity with Dooku) is that far more recent sources support him being significantly below Dooku. One of which includes a straight up fight between the two. (Republic Heroes)


hellothere5432 wrote:Addressed Windu's growth above. Really this point doesn't lead anywhere as there is no way to determine exactly which out of the two grew more.
--
Late War Mace ~ Dooku > > > > >  Ventress. Rendering your scaling chain void.
I mean, going off of intuition, what's greater? Windu's ~3 years or Katarn's ~30 years?

Bear in mind, it's not just ~30 years of normal or linear growth. As per the quote from Troy Denning Builds a Dark Nest I've sent, the entire NJO has a massive jump after The Unifying Force. Which is ~15 years before Fate of the Jedi. And it's not like Katarn hasn't seen war or action in those ~30 years. Fighting is basically a constant for him.

Even if we're to be generous and go with your chain, Katarn's ceiling is still far higher.


hellothere5432 wrote:Quote is citing CW Mace, as the description is purely about CW Mace. Rendering it void.
The intent is that he didn't really grow. I'm willing to grant that he did. However, there is really nothing to support that it's by a large margin. Nothing we've seen indicates that he's grown to be Dooku level.


hellothere5432 wrote:We can also compare other stats placing Mace over Katarn:
For one, the ones I've cited are far more recent. The SAGA one is from 2008. Whereas the Windu and Katarn you've sent is from 2005. And the Kyle you've sent is massively pre prime.


hellothere5432 wrote:Mace is considered unmatched skill wise as a duelist as of ROTS:
While impressive, "unmatched" is a rather generic accolade. Doesn't even extend to or factor in Kyle.


hellothere5432 wrote:Placing him above the likes of ROTS Sidious, Dooku and Yoda in terms of skill. Who's skill as fighters honestly  speak for themselves. Kyle is well and truly outclassed here.
Mace is an inferior to Yoda. No real way around that. As per the sources I've provided (DR included). And given that you're repping Base Windu here and not Office Mace, you can't really use the duel against Palpatine as evidence.


hellothere5432 wrote:- Mace in no way scales to Ventress.
My point never exactly was that Mace~Ventress. Merely that he's closer to her than Dooku. To an extent that I can use them for my scaling.


Now that I've finished responding to your points, allow me to bring a couple other pieces of evidence to the table.


Boba Fett



Lets take a look at a common foe both Mace and Katarn had. The one, the only, the man of Cheth's fantasies: Notable Jedi Killer Boba Fett.

In 19 BBY, at a very young age, Fett and Windu fought. Now Fett ultimately lost but not before putting up a rather good fight. Mace struggled with him. And Boba was able to tag him a couple times:

Boba vs Mace:

This isn't exactly an isolated notion. A Clone Wars Infinities story had much similar results. Now again, Boba would have lost ultimately, but it was still described as a "brutal fight"

Infinities:

Even at the highest level, G canon, the idea of Boba killing Mace was entertained (again it's a bit circumstantial in the artwork depicted here, however the point is the idea was still entertained):

Unused Concept:

How about Kyle? Well he fought a much better and older Fett to a standstill at one point. And this was before he became a Jedi.

New Essential Guide to Characters:

Kyle's own words regarding this encounter:

Jedi Academy:

Because of the encounter, Boba is more hesitant to cross paths with Kyle:

Rebel Agent:

Now you may be thinking: "Boba would obviously use different weapons and tactics against Jedi than he would conventional dudes so it's not really a comparable feat."

That is an understandable assessment, however:

1: No matter how you look at it, force users are far more dangerous opponents than non force users. So it's not like he was at some disproportionate advantage against Windu, nor does that mean he had an easier time against him than Kyle. Both Katarn and Windu really pressed Boba. Yet one grows far, far, far, far more after the encounter.
2: If we were to go with the above explanation, that makes Mace look bad. Shows he can't handle unconventional tactics. (Something which Katarn is more than capable of).
3: If we want a cleaner comparison, a young Jaden Korr defeats Boba on Ord Mantell. In an environment that's far more favorable to Fett due to its openness. And of course, Jaden as of this point is laughably below Kyle. Remember, it takes DS Jaden in the DS ending for Academy to match/beat Katarn.

To emphasize once again: I am not saying Mace is sub Boba as that is a gross misrepresentation of lore and wrong. However, I am saying that Boba can put up a good fight, even if he'd still definitely lose. And Katarn benefits from this due to his own + Jaden's performance. At the very least, this shows us Katarn's conventional combat skills are extremely impressive.


Conclusion/recap:



-Defended my scaling. Brough forth additional evidence as well.
-There is far more to support Windu being an inferior to Dooku.
-While Windu definitely could have grown, it really can't be to a degree that he's Dooku tier. Every one of their engagements and comparisons generally tend to favor Dooku.
-Katarn shows a better combat record against similar opponents/opponent types.


The Death Star was named after Kyle Katarn's right testicle



Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Image_1


Last edited by Chris Cortosis on March 6th 2022, 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

March 29th 2022, 11:29 am
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HelloThere concedes. Kyle Katarn wins.
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Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere) Empty Re: Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

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