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LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

March 7th 2022, 8:59 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Hoc10

RNG as the Hero of Coruscant from Star Wars: Lightsaber Battle Game
Cheth as Oppo Rancisis from Star Wars: Republic - Siege of Saleucami

Rules:

-3 posts per side
-no character limit
-2 weeks between posts
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty The Power of the Self Insert:

March 11th 2022, 12:45 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

The Power of the Self Insert:



PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Image


Hype:

Now before we get started on the good stuff, lets look at some of the Hero of Coruscant's hype:

He's learned the signature moves of some of the Jedi order's finest. Such as the Qui Gon Strike, Obi Wan's Spinning Blade Defense, Mace Windu's Assault, Yoda's Finishing Blow, and Anakin's Rage:

Special Moves:


We already know he defeated TPM Maul extremely early on in his career. But did you know that he did so before he even knew how to use TK combatively?

Post Maul Fight Commentary:

This is no mean feat. Being able to defeat Maul solely by relying on saber skills. You could chalk this up just gameplay mechanics but the intent is clear. He defeated Maul while he was still very much green.


And finally, General Grievous considered the Hero to be maybe the best duelist he's ever seen

The Good General:


Anyway, that's all just hype. Not that important overall. But still worth noting. Now lets get to the really good stuff:


HoC's superiority in sabers:


There really isn't much to be said here. The sheer amount of wins HoC has under his belt against Oppo's superiors is insane. But to keep this concise, lets stick to the big ones for now:

Dooku, as early as TPM was held as one of the best swordsmen of the order. Being considered on equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda.

Jedi Dookster:

There's far more that supports this but you get the idea. We can put circa TPM Rancisis below circa TPM Dooku.

Dooku grows immensely upon falling to the dark side:

Dark Growth:

And this Dooku was defeated by The Hero of Coruscant:

Dooku Mission:

But that's not all. Dooku had to rely on multiple waves of droids to help him out in the fight. Yet he still ultimately lost.

Droids:

So we're given:

ROTS HoC > HoC circa AOTC > AOTC Dooku+Droids >~ AOTC Dooku without droids >>>> (via massive DS growth) >> Circa TPM Dooku > Circa TPM Oppo (Since Mace and Yoda were the only ones considered to be on the same tier as Dooku) <(Unknown amount)<19 BBY Oppo


Later on, the Hero goes on to fight and defeat Clone Wars Yoda in a spar.

Yodder Fight:

Yoda, in the fight had to use whatever the fuck these lightning balls were. He had to pull out all the stops in his spar with the Hero. Yet he still ultimately lost.

What the fuck are these things:

Yoda is held as the greatest swordsmen of the Jedi order:

The greatest swordsman ever to emerge from the Jedi ranks, Yoda was a wise and capable leader. Forced to flee Coruscant after being defeated by the Emperor, he spent his years in exile reflecting on the very nature of the Force.

-Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith COMMEMORATIVE TIN COLLECTION

So we're given this chain:

HoC > CW Yoda >>> Oppo


The Hero in ROTS is led into a trap designed to kill him. He fights and defeats ROTS Palpatine after facing scores of Clone Troopers:

ROTS Palpatine Mission:

This was shortly before Palpatine's famous duel with Yoda. Realistically Palps should be at the same level here as he was when he fought the little green bastard. Palpatine and Yoda are hyped up to be the most powerful practitioners of their respective sides at that point:

Encyclopedia:

There's far more quotes I can show for this but you get the idea. While the quote above would bind HoC, the fact that he contended, let alone defeated Palpatine would show that at the very least, he has parity with that class. Which is far and above Oppo's tier.

So we are given:

ROTS HoC >~< ROTS Palps >~ Yoda >>> Oppo


HoC's superiority in the Force:



This one's rather straightforward. While we have exceptions, generally force power correlates with dueling skill. Plus we know the duels HoC won weren't pure martial arts displays. He defended against force attacks. So there's no reason the above chains can't apply here in terms of force power.

But to further support the above claim, here's an IU source (Jaden Korr) basically outright saying dueling skill correlates with force power:

Jaden Korr:

So the above chains can apply here as well.


Oppo's fighting style and why it won't save him



Master Rancisis has a very unique fighting style. He is a master of the force ability known as Malacia. Something that induces dizziness and nausea in opponents.

However, I'd question how combatively viable it is for our purposes. As in all its descriptions, it isn't really portrayed as something that can be used within a fast paced duel.

Malacia's entry on the Encyclopedia:

It's something that takes immense focus.

In fact, Rancisis uses it so he can avoid having to cut down enemies with his saber.

Fact File 126:

To further emphasize the point, it would have been very useful in the fight in which he was ultimately cut down. Why didn't he use it then?

And even if it has application within conventional lightsaber combat, given the gap in raw power between the Hero of Coruscant and Rancisis, it's unlikely he'll break through the Hero's passive defenses.


And finally, we have Rancisis' dueling style. You could argue that his unorthodox style + tail attacks will be too much for the Hero to cope with but I see no reason to believe that. The Hero is more than capable of fending off attacks from multiple fronts. (As shown in his fight with Dooku.) A mere unique fighting style won't be enough for Rancisis to overcome the gap established in my chains.


The Death of Greedo



First and foremost, I think it's safe to say ANH Greedo is above TCW Greedo. At worst, he's on par or slightly below. But him being superior is more likely. Now that we've established that:

As per the highest level of canon, Greedo shot first in A New Hope. But lets inspect this further, shall we?

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Greedo

This is outright Greedo missing. Even if Han hadn't "dodged", Greedo would still have missed:

Greedo's entry on the Encyclopedia:

The range from which Greedo shot can be considered point blank

We are told this about shots from point blank range:

Seized with a sudden fear of what she was, what she might do to him next, he drew his duty blaster and red on her. It was point-blank range; he would have had to go to some effort to miss. His shot took her in the side and she fell over.

-Solo Command

Lets contrast that with the type of enemies HoC deals with. In AOTC, he defeats not only Jango Fett (who is more than capable of landing shots from point blank range in a neutral environment), but a bunch of Mandalorian Commandos that the Naboo security forces are "no match for".

Jango and Co:

Safe to say this puts HoC well above TCW Greedo's class.

So, we're left with the below chains:

-TCW Greedo <~ ANH Greedo <<< Basic sentient competence
-TCW Greedo <<<< Jango Fett < AOTC Hero of Coruscant < ROTS Hero of Coruscant


Conclusions/Recap:



-Due to HoC's performance against Oppo's superiors, it's safe to say he's well above Rancisis in both sabers and the Force.
-Rancisis' unique abilities, while impressive won't really make a difference. His abilities/hax are not that powerful or broken.
-Greedo dies.


And that concludes my opener.


The stage is yours.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

March 11th 2022, 2:57 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Potent opener, if the Hero of Coruscant actually existed I might start respecting him. Of course even a real Hero of Coruscant is vastly sub Rancisis, not to mention Greedo PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

March 11th 2022, 3:42 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Image_11
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 1st 2022, 7:20 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Grindo_and_oppo_beefsis

Master of the Council



Before I get into how Rancisis wins this battle, I will also contextualize his standing amongst the jedi order and the era:

Now we all know that Rancisis is a member of the jedi high council, consisting of the greatest jedi of the order, however even within the council there is a hierarchy, in which Rancisis is amongst the highest-ranking members. How do we know this? First of we have the fact that before Windu’s appointment to Master, Rancisis appeared to be the secondary master of the council (behind Yoda of course), being one of three councilors to speak upon the questioning of Dooku:

Legacy of the Jedi wrote:Dooku stood before the Jedi Council. He did not know if Lorian had come before him or would be appearing after. He only knew one thing: It was time to tell the truth. He described how Lorian had wanted them to take the Sith Holocron, and later, how Lorian had asked him to lie for him.

 "And were you prepared to lie for him?" Oppo Rancisis asked.

 Dooku took a moment before answering. He wanted to lie and say that he had never considered Lorian's request, yet he knew the Jedi Masters could see through him like water. He wasn't as powerful as they were, not yet.

And was the one leading the training of the padawans/initiates alongside Yoda:

Legacy of the Jedi wrote:Then Yoda and Oppo Rancisis emerged from the interior of the Temple. His gaze rested on Dooku only briefly, but it brought Dooku back to reality with a bump. His mood suddenly soured as he thought of the Jedi Council he would have to face.

 The students quieted as Yoda approached. He stood in the middle of the group, nodding greetings at the familiar faces. He'd known them all since they were babies and had trained them all when they were younglings.

 "In an exercise know you do that every year the oldest students participate," he said. "Urban tracking, this year's will be. That this is a test remember you must. Yet graded you will not be. Take it seriously but lightly you must. Attempt to win you will; if you lose, enjoy it you may."

 The students smiled at Yoda's contradictions and fiddled with their training lightsabers. Everyone was anxious to begin.

 "And now, the rules," Oppo said. "You will be divided into two teams of ten. In a moment, your team color will flash on your datapad. Each team will have a different starting point. The goal of each team is to successfully bring a muja fruit from one of the fruitsellers in the All Planets Market back to the Temple by sunset. Team members can be eliminated only by one light touch with a lightsaber."

 The students smiled. They knew that no matter how easy it sounded, the actual exercise would turn out to be much harder.

 "You must keep to the segment mapped out on your datapads. To cross the line is to be disqualified. Do you understand this?"

However after Mace became Master of the Order, Rancisis still can be seen as a tertiary master or something to that effect, being one of the most outspoken members on the council, being one of two masters discussing the Yinchorri uprising with Yoda after Mace’s departure, and being one of three masters (Yoda and Mace being the others) called in when an entire sector threatens to leave the Republic:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) VFiebEtqf5Uu_pZvndGiL_wenGewL83fkWJkd5R5NQ72hAgqRubWKHmtdhL-OYkYsMp_YhTPwOlHyL71BMyEGCsLM7mJduz0OZXQtO9O5OEGbRTzeHbGvjPjGsDpI1Sht_MBgqkO5ws1600

Rancisis is also one of five lifetime jedi masters on the council, the rest being temporary members:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 8427025-screenshot_20220328-020934

But perhaps most telling is Rancisis’ role in Quinlan’s trial. Despite the presence (some by holo) of Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Saesee Tiin, Rancisis is the one leading the trial:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 5xZHI-9E05G0tcABREL47DB4D1LYobKw5DEuTFl2M2dittdyQQRjLLYGOp4dGn0SQDnjGudjeE5Fs1600

And it is Rancisis who is ultimately given the sole responsibility of judging Quinlan:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) PHB2PaP-24ar8Y4xzmhgrNPNGTxvzFA-oe1Jpk2AfS65nNMwsL1PnyAIubLC2j4twoz18-cVnu0Ps1600

What is particularly noteworthy here is that Mace says that Rancisis is the “senior” member of the council on-site. While Mace himself isn’t on site (and obviously has higher seniority than Rancisis), this does put Rancisis on a higher rank than Tiin:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Tiin of course being a powerful jedi, specifically chosen to arrest Sidious, and Mace’s regular sparring partner:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Finally we have the most potent of all comparisons:

JEDI HIGH COUNCIL SEAT SCALING



Here in TPM, we see Depa Billaba sitting on the left end of the circle:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Latest

And in CW03, we see a different council, in Yaddle’s place sits Shaak Ti (as this is after Yaddle’s sacrifice), in place of Poof sits Fisto (as Poof also is dead at the time), and most importantly, we see that Kenobi has taken Depa’s seat in the council:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Screenshot_809

Now the skeptics amongst you may be questioning what on earth I’m talking about, but this is all relevant. Since in Revenge of the Sith, while the position of Adi Gallia had been taken by Stass Allie, and Eeth Koth by Agen Kolar, there is another high council member who had died: Rancisis. And the spot of Rancisis had been taken by: Obi-Wan?

Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Obi-Wan sat in the chair that once had belonged to Oppo Rancisis, looking pensive. Even worried."

Depa’s seat is in turn taken by Coleman Kcaj. The fact that Kenobi was moved instead of Kcaj simply taking Rancisis’ seat, and the fact that Kenobi’s seat is specifically referred to as the one of Rancisis, indicates that where one sits is relevant to one’s position in the Council. This is the time where Kenobi’s one of the most respected of the High Council, among the three greatest bar Anakin (once he joins), so it appears unreasonable that Kenobi would be lowered in position in favor of Kcaj.

So my argument is simple: Kenobi was given Rancisis’ seat since that's the seat of the third-highest council member, as argued before.

Lightsaber Syndrome

Chris Cortosis wrote:In fact, Rancisis uses it so he can avoid having to cut down enemies with his saber.

This quote interests me, since it implies that it is somehow detrimental for Rancisis to avoid using his lightsaber to kill people. But that is just the general mindset of jedi, they are supposed to avoid killing and violence at all costs:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

If he was just some guy waving his lightsaber around at every opportunity he would be suffering from lightsaber syndrome, which is completely irrelevant but I thought the scan was funny ( PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1076326320 )

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

However this doesn’t somehow lower their skill in combat. On the contrary, jedi constantly train with their lightsabers (except for specific exceptions like Fay):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And during the clone wars all jedi became warriors:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

It is particularly an odd suggestion since Rancisis comes from a warrior culture/species:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And Rancisis himself is a skilled warrior, as he beat the Monarch of the planet in hand-to-hand combat:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

The fact that he seems old and calm all the time is just a general trait of his species, it doesn’t make them any less capable in combat when the time comes:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Master of Malacia



Chris Cortosis wrote:However, I'd question how combatively viable it is for our purposes. As in all its descriptions, it isn't really portrayed as something that can be used within a fast paced duel.

I guess you can look forwards to looking at any of its descriptions then PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304

Jedi vs Sith confirms that its used against “opponents” and is a “powerful defense”, both of which indicate it being used in combat. Rancisis even tells of using it on a whole group of warriors at once:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

The Encyclopedia entry for Rancisis also states its used against “enemies”:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

But most amusing is checking the quotes you sent. Lets start with the encyclopedia entry on Malacia. It specifically states Rancisis used it “in combat”:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And although the scan you posted doesn’t include that part, Fact Files 126 states that Malacia is a “martial art”, which per definition is a form used in combat:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Your argument for why its unusable in combat is contradicted by any source speaking of it, including the ones you posted. Your argument hinges on the term “difficult”, but something being difficult does not make it unusable right? Most jedi would consider higher powers difficult, but thats why only masters use them; since they’ve mastered them. It doesn’t prevent them from being used in combat.

Now while you already have described some of its effects, nausea and dizziness, that does not fully explain why its so useful in this matchup. First of there’s the fact that it outright incapitates opponents, which for obvious reasons would be a huge advantage for Rancisis, as he or GREEDO could simply kill him while he’s down:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

But there’s also how its done. Malacia specifically turns equilibrium and someone’s strength against them and thereby causes these effects:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Which means that arguments like this don’t work:

Chris Cortosis wrote:And even if it has application within conventional lightsaber combat, given the gap in raw power between the Hero of Coruscant and Rancisis, it's unlikely he'll break through the Hero's passive defenses.

Since HoC’s defenses would only take part in overwhelming him more quickly. And the stronger they are the weaker they are to MALACIA

Chris Cortosis wrote:To further emphasize the point, it would have been very useful in the fight in which he was ultimately cut down. Why didn't he use it then?

Any reader of this debate who has read Republic requires no explanation for why this argument is flawed. But for those that have not, I will counter this argument. To start, prior to his death he had been using battle meditation for five months:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

To specify, he is using it to do three things at once.

1. He’s using it to create battleplans for victory in the current siege.

2. He’s using it to lead and strengthen his forces, weakening the enemies, and predicting their every move.

3. And he’s using it to do galaxy-wide battle meditation, only being stopped by the darkside, which he specifically says is the only thing blocking him. Which indicates he could have accomplished it if not for the darkside bubble. Even naturally gifted or great practitioners like Odan-Urr, Thon, Nomi Sunrider, Yoda, and Arca Jeth have at most used it on fleet/city-based environments.

All of this causes him to be “exhausted”:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Then Dooku and Bulq specifically make a battle occur at the same time they send assassins, to distract Rancisis and put him at his “most vulnerable”:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) KJSKGTQOjXrb53Pq2supBMCxen8-lcHI8-jE6Qvz62wNT_e-pN-Bm1E7fVgJpmAu4P9RUcBUxz6ts1600

Yet even at his weakest he senses them mid-BM, and proceeds to kill all of them except one in three panels, the last only surviving because he asked him to surrender (and note, the battle still ends with the Republic winning, indicating he was still using BM mid-fight):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Cs1bW9JAj0Y8cS_Q19OI28Wp80L08U3Noo563S2eKjFE7DHQfUtPsm9JAP5kEPBsdWANb2NK81ixs1600
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) WWs0GfX358axXmkYIG1G3xTHfs2VLh8AkZiMl9Q4O3g2YxDglkD2tVCQLs0omKi0zV89d49vnZ4ks1600

For context these assassins aren’t random fodder, they’re every single one of the Anzati Masters (except one staying on-planet) attacking him at once. A single master put Tholme (who Dooku praises for his skill), at an impasse:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) DRUQkcmxRlTjqwIZ9TKBctex2K_46wHz3VL2_g9l0ZO5Y-v_Ymug2acZ-PqUL14nvvGCHcUzNvUHs1600
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Rm3x27tbA3alAI_jcxlzkV3j6qc99eEz8Bqpuk4aMDTk0TQZKzIYtAGGHZGxumheqfvEzDjyqvnvs1600

And a non-master assassin pressed Quinlan Vos:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) QAGLpiWuu3gOUlP_v5DmPHWnyOXgQjhoMntwU-UgRgHp771M2VQC_7lJRj2t_Y1REl4zhdd5SnaBs1600

Even while barely capable of standing he oneshots the last anzati master. Now tell me, at what point in this fight did Rancisis need to whip out his most powerful technique?

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3TxEpb9DDjSCyKRdFa5sYaXEcF6QGLGwciRLw2h5w4ghfec1HzOevdG-3KCIbn9qVeGYCV7uVNN4s1600

Finally, the distraction battle putting an already exhausted Rancisis at his weakest, and every single Tholme-tier master of an entire species ambushing him, were all just a distraction for Bulq to sneak up on him and stab him from behind, at which point there was no opportunity to use Malacia:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) OqJWGdb_UNKu_1V8EIbK-qU5PZLBQuPe3x-OzLamUfhcZD_jXtqeclx5XJ_oXS20Dth1d2goTi2-s1600

The fact that Rancisis went through all of this and Bulq still would not face him directly, is telling of how dangerous he is in combat. Particularly since a pre-prime Bulq was unafraid to challenge Mace Windu, and even stalemated him in pure dueling (though was ragdolled by force attacks):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 4451231-sora%20bulq%20vs%20mace%20windu%202
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 4451232-sora%20bulq%20vs%20mace%20windu%203
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 4451233-sora%20bulq%20vs%20mace%20windu%204

And the Bulq that backstabbed Rancisis had gone through training at the hands of Dooku, to the point where he considered himself more powerful than Mace (which of course, is not necessarily true. But the fact he goes from being ragdolled to thinking himself superior signifies great growth):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Jykfh4blas261

Master with the blade, neophyte in the Force



There is no disagreeing with the fact that HoC is one of the most skilled duelists in the PT. However I do want to quickly address two things. First we have the fact that in most instances, HoC has fighting styles specifically suited for fighting the opponents he faces. For example, against Yoda, he was specifically taught Yoda’s fighting style before they sparred:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Against Anakin and KFV, he also was specifically taught Anakin’s fighting style:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Rage10

And like you stated he has knowledge of Kenobi’s, Mace’s, and Jinn’s fighting styles. In other words he’s perfectly suited to fight those opponents he faces. But how would any of these styles translate into fighting Rancisis, who has a fighting style specific to his species, one which HoC has no experience with? Rancisis on the other hand has personally witnessed the training of Dooku, Mace, Jinn, Kenobi, Anakin, etc., and has seen centuries of jedi, so nothing HoC could do would catch him off guard.

Next I want to establish that while HoC is skilled with the blade, he’s completely inept with the force. Like you said, while HoC was a padawan he didn’t even know force push:

Chris Cortosis wrote:But did you know that he did so before he even knew how to use TK combatively?

This is despite even initiates learning how to wield the force:

Jedi Path wrote:As Jedi Initiates you were learn and hone many abilities that draw upon The Force. These abilities fall under 3 themes: Control, Sense and Alter. Control is centered on one's own body and is the focus of training for Initiates. Used properly your Control abilities will allow you to survive injury and decay, extending your service to the Order by decades.

But thats not all, HoC also didn’t learn how to use lightsaber throw until after he fought Sidious:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Note that at this point, HoC had already been a jedi master for a while:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

So for HoC’s standards, lightsaber throw is a high-tier esoteric. Making it impossible that HoC would have any knowledge of how to fight off Malacia.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 5809025-5702239755-giphy
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Addtext_com_MDYzMDAyMjM1ODM

Contradictory evidence/flawed comparisons



While I will go in depth on counters in my main post, there are certain inconsistencies I want to point out right away. And note some stances presented here are not necessarily ones I have, but are just the results of your own arguments and chains:

Chris Cortosis wrote:Dooku, as early as TPM was held as one of the best swordsmen of the order. Being considered on equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda.

Your argument = TPM Dooku ~ Yoda.

Chris Cortosis wrote:Dooku grows immensely upon falling to the dark side:

Chris Cortosis wrote:AOTC Dooku without droids >>>> (via massive DS growth) >> Circa TPM Dooku

Which gives us the following chain: AOTC Dooku without droids >>>> (via massive DS growth) >> Circa TPM Dooku ~ Yoda. AOTC Dooku is multiple stomps gaps above Yoda according to your case. Which is obviously factually wrong:



Amusingly we also get the following from your chains:

Chris Cortosis wrote:Circa TPM Dooku > Circa TPM Oppo

Your argument = TPM Dooku ~ Yoda > Circa TPM Oppo

Chris Cortosis wrote:Circa TPM Oppo (Since Mace and Yoda were the only ones considered to be on the same tier as Dooku) <(Unknown amount)<19 BBY Oppo

Your argument = TPM Dooku ~ Yoda > Circa TPM Oppo <(Unknown amount)<19 BBY Oppo

Which roughly leaves = Yoda < 19 BBY Oppo, which based on the Dooku fight leaves us with 19BBY Oppo > Yoda > Aotc Dooku.

Solution to this inconsistency? While Dooku has grown since TPM, the growth can’t allow him to rank up a tier as he still has to be on “equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda”. A more accurate way to write your original chain is: ROTS HoC > AotC HoC > AotC Dooku ~ Yoda ~ TPM Dooku. Of course this is still a flawed chain due to Yoda’s placement, but you’ll see that in the next two chains.




Next inconsistency:

Chris Cortosis wrote:Later on, the Hero goes on to fight and defeat Clone Wars Yoda in a spar.

Chris Cortosis wrote:Yoda is held as the greatest swordsmen of the Jedi order:

Your argument: HoC > Yoda > All jedi in the order (including HoC). Obvious solution to the contradiction; it's a training duel, so Yoda doesn’t perform as he would in a real fight. Fixed chain would simply be: Yoda > HoC




Next inconsistency:

Chris Cortosis wrote:Palpatine and Yoda are hyped up to be the most powerful practitioners of their respective sides at that point

Chris Cortosis wrote:ROTS HoC >~< ROTS Palps >~ Yoda

Your argument (potentially): ROTS HoC > Palps > Yoda > All other forcusers (including HoC)

The only non-contradictory way to read your chain is: ROTS HoC < Palps ~ Yoda > All other forcusers (including HoC), however that leaves HoC unable to scale from Palps and Yoda as he’s below both. You still argue:

Chris Cortosis wrote:ROTS HoC >~< ROTS Palps >~ Yoda >>> Oppo

Which even with contradiction fixed would be: ROTS HoC < Palps ~ Yoda >>> Oppo, But no evidence is provided for the >>> gap between Yoda and Oppo. In fact based on the first inconsistency, the following is true: Yoda < 19 BBY Oppo. Which leads us with HoC < Yoda < 19 BBY Oppo.

Note again, these are not stances I have, or feel the need to argue. However there are significant inconsistencies amongst your arguments and chains. Each of the arguments used to argue HoC > Oppo in power contradicts itself from the start. So no gap between the two in power or skill is proven.




Flawed argument:

Chris Cortosis wrote:And finally, we have Rancisis' dueling style. You could argue that his unorthodox style + tail attacks will be too much for the Hero to cope with but I see no reason to believe that. The Hero is more than capable of fending off attacks from multiple fronts. (As shown in his fight with Dooku.) A mere unique fighting style won't be enough for Rancisis to overcome the gap established in my chains.

The “attacks from multiple fronts” are four droids shooting at him at once. Dooku stands still while it happens (the first droid dies too quickly to get a picture with all four facing forwards, but you see their legs):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

You can’t argue that deflecting shots from 4 shooters = a jedi using 4 arms and a tail to attack all at once, which he has in the past:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Cs1bW9JAj0Y8cS_Q19OI28Wp80L08U3Noo563S2eKjFE7DHQfUtPsm9JAP5kEPBsdWANb2NK81ixs1600

Chris Cortosis wrote:A mere unique fighting style won't be enough for Rancisis to overcome the gap established in my chains.

Which gap?

GREEDO SUPREMACY



Chris Cortosis wrote:First and foremost, I think it's safe to say ANH Greedo is above TCW Greedo. At worst, he's on par or slightly below. But him being superior is more likely. Now that we've established that:

ANH Greedo might be slightly superior to TCW Greedo, since he was trained by two bounty hunters in between the time periods. But the training was short and minimal, mostly restricted to general advice. So there is nothing suggesting a noticeable gap.

Actually, Greedo does shoot roughly where Han’s head is at. Right after the CGI dodge,we see Han’s head back at its original position, and it covers over the blast mark where Greedo’s shot hit:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Also this is a flawed argument from the start, since it relies entirely on it looking like Greedo missed due to old framework/CGI. If it would have missed anyways, why would they have edited in a dodge with CGI? Intent matters too. As for the Encyclopedia quote, it says Greedo missed yes. But if you shoot someone, they dodge the shot, and so your shot doesn’t hit where you intended it to, that is still considered a dodge. There is no way of circumventing the intent with the scene.

Finally we have the fact that we know Greedo can hit his targets since pre-training Greedo one shotted Gorm the Dissolver from a much greater distance than between him and Han in ANH, with an unfamiliar weapon no less:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Note that Gorm wears fully armour, is stated to be one of the galaxy’s deadliest bounty hunters, and most importantly, has come up against Mace Windu and survived:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Which leaves us with the following chain: GREEDO > Gorm ~ Mace Windu

Which discredits the following chain of yours: TCW Greedo <<<< Jango Fett < AOTC Hero of Coruscant < ROTS Hero of Coruscant, since you know who killed Jango Fett?

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

This guy. So the following chain is instead true: GREEDO > Gorm ~ Mace Windu > Jango Fett < AOTC Hero of Coruscant < ROTS Hero of Coruscant. Which leads us with:

GREEDO = ROTS Hero of Coruscant. Even a much weaker character than Rancisis would be then enough to tip the scales in favour of GREEDO.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Addtext_com_MDYyMzAyMjM1NTA

Note also that even if Greedo was as fodder as you assumed he is, Greedo still would have been an added at least temporary distraction, and once HoC is downed by Malacia anyways Greedo could have so bad aim he hits one of every hundred shots and still have enough time to kill HoC.  

Conclusion


- Oppo Rancisis is the third-greatest jedi of the order prior to his death.
- Rancisis is no less a fighter than HoC.
- Malacia is a fully viable tool in combat, and one which would oneshot HoC
- There is no way HoC is masterful enough in the force to block Malacia
- HoC had advantages in every duel, but would not here.
- All of the chains for HoC’s superiority are contradictory, flawed, or just put Oppo above Yoda/HoC level

- Greedo missed only since Han dodged.
- Greedo has hit shots before.
- Based on your scalings Greed = HoC
- Greedo would have value even if he was useless.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown


Last edited by Nute_Chethray on April 1st 2022, 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 1st 2022, 9:12 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
ngl, this post was great. arguments aside, the amount of stuff i just learned about oppo is crazy lol holy shit, great stuff cheth. imma save this shit ngl to u
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 1st 2022, 10:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:ngl, this post was great. arguments aside, the amount of stuff i just learned about oppo is crazy lol holy shit, great stuff cheth. imma save this shit ngl to u

Thanks alot, glad you liked it mate PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 228124001
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April 1st 2022, 1:31 pm
Excellent post  @Nute_Chethray. I had extremely high expectations for your post, and you blew em all out of the water. Will try to respond soon. This'll be a very fun debate.
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 1st 2022, 4:49 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Chris Cortosis wrote:Excellent post  @Nute_Chethray. I had extremely high expectations for your post, and you blew em all out of the water. Will try to respond soon. This'll be a very fun debate.

Thank you so much for the high praise, and yeah it'll be great, can't wait to see you try and fail to debunk GREEDO SCALING PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304 . Also no worries on how long it takes, I took way too long myself lol
Chris Cortosis
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Part 2 of the Self Insert's Supremacy

April 7th 2022, 12:01 am

The Self Insert's Supremacy


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown


This post is mostly just responses but stay tuned till the end for my mini disrespect thread on Greedo. PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304

Anyway, let's begin.


Responses:



Nute_Chethray wrote:Before I get into how Rancisis wins this battle, I will also contextualize his standing amongst the jedi order and the era:

Now we all know that Rancisis is a member of the jedi high council, consisting of the greatest jedi of the order, however even within the council there is a hierarchy, in which Rancisis is amongst the highest-ranking members. How do we know this? First of we have the fact that before Windu’s appointment to Master, Rancisis appeared to be the secondary master of the council (behind Yoda of course), being one of three councilors to speak upon the questioning of Dooku:
--
And was the one leading the training of the padawans/initiates alongside Yoda:
--
However after Mace became Master of the Order, Rancisis still can be seen as a tertiary master or something to that effect, being one of the most outspoken members on the council, being one of two masters discussing the Yinchorri uprising with Yoda after Mace’s departure, and being one of three masters (Yoda and Mace being the others) called in when an entire sector threatens to leave the Republic:
--
Rancisis is also one of five lifetime jedi masters on the council, the rest being temporary members:
--
But perhaps most telling is Rancisis’ role in Quinlan’s trial. Despite the presence (some by holo) of Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Saesee Tiin, Rancisis is the one leading the trial:
--
And it is Rancisis who is ultimately given the sole responsibility of judging Quinlan:
While this is all impressive, it doesn't really amount to much within a 1v1 (2v1 in our case) deathmatch. It does speak highly for Rancisis that he's the one trusted to judge Vos, but it's all moot point at the end of the day as it doesn't have much bearing on combative ability. Clout within the order only gets you so far. We wouldn't place the likes of Tionne or Kenth Hamner highly just because they have important positions within the order. Would we?


Nute_Chethray wrote:What is particularly noteworthy here is that Mace says that Rancisis is the “senior” member of the council on-site. While Mace himself isn’t on site (and obviously has higher seniority than Rancisis), this does put Rancisis on a higher rank than Tiin:
In terms of authority to make decisions, sure. Hell, I'm okay with granting that this extends to power level supremacy over Tiin too. Though it's not that important, as I'll get into soon.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Tiin of course being a powerful jedi, specifically chosen to arrest Sidious, and Mace’s regular sparring partner:
It's funny you should mention this. Because.......

Mace goes to Plo to actually test his skills in a spar:

I won't say Mace chooses to spar with Tiin because it'd be an easy win for him but......

No matter what CuckedCurry tells you, Tiin is trash! PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1019854026


Nute_Chethray wrote:Depa’s seat is in turn taken by Coleman Kcaj. The fact that Kenobi was moved instead of Kcaj simply taking Rancisis’ seat, and the fact that Kenobi’s seat is specifically referred to as the one of Rancisis, indicates that where one sits is relevant to one’s position in the Council. This is the time where Kenobi’s one of the most respected of the High Council, among the three greatest bar Anakin (once he joins), so it appears unreasonable that Kenobi would be lowered in position in favor of Kcaj.
--
So my argument is simple: Kenobi was given Rancisis’ seat since that's the seat of the third-highest council member, as argued before.
Damn..... the Kcaj disrespect on display here :_(

Jokes aside, this is cool and all but all it does is raise Kenobi. Doesn't really raise Oppo. And as I said earlier, it's more a matter of Rancisis having clout than actual power levels or combative effectiveness.


Nute_Chethray wrote:This quote interests me, since it implies that it is somehow detrimental for Rancisis to avoid using his lightsaber to kill people. But that is just the general mindset of jedi, they are supposed to avoid killing and violence at all costs:
My intent was moreso to say that Malacia is meant to stop confrontations before they happen. And I don't see it being used to great effectiveness within lightsaber duels.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Jedi vs Sith confirms that its used against “opponents” and is a “powerful defense”, both of which indicate it being used in combat. Rancisis even tells of using it on a whole group of warriors at once:
The use of "opponents" and "powerful defense" doesn't really preclude the notion of it being used to end fights before they start. Plus it's stated to be similar in use to mind tricks. As the JvS scan you've sent says. Though even then, I'm more than happy to grant that it can be used combatively. Against non force users. Since they're the only ones it's documented as being used against.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Your argument for why its unusable in combat is contradicted by any source speaking of it, including the ones you posted. Your argument hinges on the term “difficult”, but something being difficult does not make it unusable right? Most jedi would consider higher powers difficult, but thats why only masters use them; since they’ve mastered them. It doesn’t prevent them from being used in combat.
Yeah. it's "difficult" to use against non force users. Just imagine how much harder it'd be to use it against a force user within a fast paced lightsaber duel.


Nute_Chethray wrote:But there’s also how its done. Malacia specifically turns equilibrium and someone’s strength against them and thereby causes these effects:
--
Since HoC’s defenses would only take part in overwhelming him more quickly. And the stronger they are the weaker they are to MALACIA
The Jedi vs Sith quote from Oppo you've sent here only accounts for non force sensitives. They don't have force barriers. And therefore they can't resist. That will not be a problem for the Hero as his potent barrier can just sense the ability and block it. Malacia, while an extremely potent ability, isn't nearly that tier of hax. Otherwise, Jedi wouldn't resort to simple mind tricks and force pushes when an ability that can insta-ragdoll force users exists. In every single source, it's described merely as something that's an alternative to more basic powers.

Plo Koon has the ability to use it. Yet never does so in any of his fights against force users. You could argue that it's because he isn't as good with it as Oppo and while that's fair, it'd still have come in handy in some of his fights. The point stands. Malacia doesn't just ignore force barriers:

Plo Koon:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Any reader of this debate who has read Republic requires no explanation for why this argument is flawed. But for those that have not, I will counter this argument. To start, prior to his death he had been using battle meditation for five months:
--
To specify, he is using it to do three things at once.

1. He’s using it to create battleplans for victory in the current siege.

2. He’s using it to lead and strengthen his forces, weakening the enemies, and predicting their every move.

3. And he’s using it to do galaxy-wide battle meditation, only being stopped by the darkside, which he specifically says is the only thing blocking him. Which indicates he could have accomplished it if not for the darkside bubble. Even naturally gifted or great practitioners like Odan-Urr, Thon, Nomi Sunrider, Yoda, and Arca Jeth have at most used it on fleet/city-based environments.

All of this causes him to be “exhausted”:
--
Then Dooku and Bulq specifically make a battle occur at the same time they send assassins, to distract Rancisis and put him at his “most vulnerable”:
--
Yet even at his weakest he senses them mid-BM, and proceeds to kill all of them except one in three panels, the last only surviving because he asked him to surrender (and note, the battle still ends with the Republic winning, indicating he was still using BM mid-fight):
While the circumstances behind this fight were considerable, you are wrong in his reason for not using it. As was I.

Whether it was Ostrander's intent or not, we know Malacia requires line of sight. And as we can see, he was surrounded and not constantly facing all his enemies, so he couldn't consistently keep its effects up. We can safely say that it simply wasn't convenient to use here.

Fight:

Line of Sight:

So I'll relent on my original point regarding the potential application of Malacia in Rancisis' final fight. Unfortunately, it won't do Rancisis much good. Given that HoC should vastly outstrip Oppo in speed. So he can simply just get out of Master Rancisis' line of sight. (And likely blitz him)

I know what you're thinking "But our Hero won't know Rancisis can use Malacia". Well stay tuned as that will be addressed shortly.


Nute_Chethray wrote:For context these assassins aren’t random fodder, they’re every single one of the Anzati Masters (except one staying on-planet) attacking him at once. A single master put Tholme (who Dooku praises for his skill), at an impasse:
I'm not sure I get what you mean. The impasse in question was regarding Tholme's search for answers in his investigation. Not a martial arts contest. You could imply they're close in combative ability because that master taught Tholme for a time but even that's rather suspect.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And a non-master assassin pressed Quinlan Vos:
Bit of a stretch. Vos was trying to pump her for info. Not kill her. We know that tends to extend fights longer than they need to be.

Plus, looking at the entire fight, it's clear she can't even take him combatively. Why else would she run away to change the playing field to something more advantageous?

Running Away:

And even if I were to grant that she's close to him and could press him in a conventional melee, who cares? Because as we see in the very next panel, the second he decides to use the force, he insta ragdolls her.

No more Mister Nice Guy:

Sure these Anzati are slightly more impressive than the average fodder but they're nowhere near the beasts you imply.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Particularly since a pre-prime Bulq was unafraid to challenge Mace Windu, and even stalemated him in pure dueling (though was ragdolled by force attacks):
I applaud your usage of Bulq's fight with Mace. However, there's a couple glaring problems  outright:

1: Not being scared doesn't mean anything.
2: Windu and Bulq used to be sparring partners. They developed Vaapad together. The fact that they fought relatively evenly in sabers is more a testament to Bulq being familiar with Windu's moves. And while generally, the same could be true in reverse (Windu knowing all of Bulq's moves), it's clear that Bulq's style and moves have changed. It's implied by him saying "I have perfected it. I have harnessed all that is inherent in it."

You can point to them being sparring partners as a sign of parity but the problem with that is that Windu was also partners with Tiin. And we all know how massive the gap between them is. Same for Koon.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And the Bulq that backstabbed Rancisis had gone through training at the hands of Dooku, to the point where he considered himself more powerful than Mace (which of course, is not necessarily true. But the fact he goes from being ragdolled to thinking himself superior signifies great growth):
If Bulq was anywhere near Windu overall, Palpatine would just have him killed. We see how he felt about Ventress when she grew too powerful. It's safe to assume that Bulq was a good distance from that threshold.

Ventress was betrayed in the same year that she fought Windu on Coruscant. Being around that level means an acolyte is too powerful to be allowed to live. At least in Palpatine's view.

The point is, there is no reason to treat Bulq's taunting of Tholme here as anything more than a taunt. At worst, it's him trying to scare Tholme. At best, it's a case of an overinflated ego.

In fact, lets look at it another way, if Bulq was able to actually fight on par with Windu, he wouldn't have needed to create the diversion. Given that Windu is Rancisis' superior. And given that Rancisis was exhausted. Point is, Sora is trash compared to any of the best masters (HoC, Windu, Rancisis, etc)


Nute_Chethray wrote:There is no disagreeing with the fact that HoC is one of the most skilled duelists in the PT. However I do want to quickly address two things. First we have the fact that in most instances, HoC has fighting styles specifically suited for fighting the opponents he faces. For example, against Yoda, he was specifically taught Yoda’s fighting style before they sparred:
He was only taught one move. And as I pointed out in my first post, Yoda also had to use some weird fucking esoteric lightning balls. HoC had zero knowledge on those and still won. (More on this later)


Nute_Chethray wrote:Against Anakin and KFV, he also was specifically taught Anakin’s fighting style:
Again, just one move.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And like you stated he has knowledge of Kenobi’s, Mace’s, and Jinn’s fighting styles. In other words he’s perfectly suited to fight those opponents he faces. But how would any of these styles translate into fighting Rancisis, who has a fighting style specific to his species, one which HoC has no experience with? Rancisis on the other hand has personally witnessed the training of Dooku, Mace, Jinn, Kenobi, Anakin, etc., and has seen centuries of jedi, so nothing HoC could do would catch him off guard.
One move is not an entire fighting style. His wins aren't bogged down by that since in most cases, the opponents whose moves he's learned use other techniques that isn't taught to the Hero. And he won those spars fair and square. And guess what? The Hero had zero knowledge on the fighting styles of Maul, Dooku, Grievous, or Palpatine.

To address your point regarding Oppo witnessing the training of some of HoC's opponents, sure. He may have witnessed their training. But did he have experience with or an understanding of their signature moves? I think not. And even if he did, the number of moves HoC has at his disposal will be hard for Oppo to deal with.

Chuck Norris tells us that changing up styles or moves can throw enemies off balance. HoC can do that with ease.

Chuck Norris:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Next I want to establish that while HoC is skilled with the blade, he’s completely inept with the force. Like you said, while HoC was a padawan he didn’t even know force push:
--
This is despite even initiates learning how to wield the force:
Very clever of you to turn my wank into anti-wank, Cheth. Unfortunately, it won't do Rancisis much good.


Nute_Chethray wrote:But thats not all, HoC also didn’t learn how to use lightsaber throw until after he fought Sidious:
This is not an anti feat. This means HoC can win without needing to use hax. A further testament to his power and more legitimacy to my scaling chains.


Nute_Chethray wrote:So for HoC’s standards, lightsaber throw is a high-tier esoteric. Making it impossible that HoC would have any knowledge of how to fight off Malacia.
On the contrary, you've done a beautiful job of establishing Master Rancisis' clout within the order. He's a very prominent figure. And as we see in several IU sources, he wasn't secretive about Malacia. So despite not knowing how to use it, our Hero is doubtless very well aware that it exists and that Oppo can use it. Meaning he'll know what to look out for. Meaning either:

A: He'll put up his mental force barrier.
B: He'll get out of the line of sight of Oppo, and then proceed to speedblitz him.
Not knowing something doesn't equate to being helpless against it. It's doubtful Zannah could use her Sith Sorcery TP on someone like Anakin. Sure, hax are a thing but in this case, it won't win Rancisis the fight.


Now onto your points regarding my scaling


Nute_Chethray wrote:Your argument = TPM Dooku ~ Yoda.
That was not my intent. Allow me to correct myself. My intent was Jedi Dooku > everyone else. Not necessarily Yoda. Him being "considered on equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda" means that they're the big three of the order. We don't quite know the gaps between the big three but we do know that they're the best of the best.

But allow me to present more evidence for Jedi Dooku>Everyone else:

Jedi Dooku:

To clarify, I don't need Circa TPM Dooku~Circa TPM Yoda. Just TPM Dooku>Rancisis


Nute_Chethray wrote:Which gives us the following chain: AOTC Dooku without droids >>>> (via massive DS growth) >> Circa TPM Dooku ~ Yoda. AOTC Dooku is multiple stomps gaps above Yoda according to your case. Which is obviously factually wrong:
Ignoring my clarification above, your point here assumes that Yoda doesn't grow massively after TPM. Which is puzzling since he's strong in the Force. Why wouldn't he grow?


Nute_Chethray wrote:Your argument: HoC > Yoda > All jedi in the order (including HoC). Obvious solution to the contradiction; it's a training duel
If a feat outright contradicts a quote, I see no reason to favor the quote more. At least in a one to one comparison like this one. But if we bind the Hero under the quote, then a better solution would simply be HoC>~>> Oppo, But no evidence is provided for the >>> gap between Yoda and Oppo.
Why would the gap between Yoda and Rancisis not be massive? We know that Yoda and Windu are above him. And given that Windu needed the superconducting loop amp to challenge Palps and Yoda didn't... well. Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis.

Yoda>Mace:

My saying "Yoda >>> Oppo" was a generous estimate for Rancisis.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Note again, these are not stances I have, or feel the need to argue. However there are significant inconsistencies amongst your arguments and chains. Each of the arguments used to argue HoC > Oppo in power contradicts itself from the start. So no gap between the two in power or skill is proven.
Sure, supremacy quotes may be binding to HoC. But at the end of the day, he is fighting on par with and defeating Rancisis' superiors. Feats should outstrip quotes. But even if we are to grant that HoC is sub Yoda and Palpatine: Realistically, it has to be by a razor thin margin. Oppo simply does not have such comparisons. He's consistently written as an inferior to the people HoC is beating. The worst case scenario for my chains are: HoC<~Yoda>>Oppo.


Now onto the Dooku and the droids thing.


Nute_Chethray wrote:The “attacks from multiple fronts” are four droids shooting at him at once. Dooku stands still while it happens (the first droid dies too quickly to get a picture with all four facing forwards, but you see their legs):
I'll relent on my point here, however another thing to keep in mind regarding this fight:

Would Oppo press Dooku enough that he jumps back to let droids fire? Doubtful.


Nute_Chethray wrote:You can’t argue that deflecting shots from 4 shooters = a jedi using 4 arms and a tail to attack all at once, which he has in the past:
Regarding the tail, unlike the Anzati, HoC has a lightsaber. I'm sure that if Oppo goes for a tail whip, HoC can just relieve Master Rancisis of his tail. Gg.

Though, it's funny you should mention 4 arms, since our Hero can counter Grievous' onslaught. Sure he's not attacking with all arms at once in this clip. But given Grievous' speed, might as well be.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Download

Plus, it's not like Rancisis' extra arms will come into play in non bladelock situations. So the advantage is moot. He'll only be able to use 2-3 arms since 1-2 will be used to hold his saber. Like what's he even gonna do? Throw a punch? That's useless outside of bladelocks.


Now onto your points regarding your team's most powerful member.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Actually, Greedo does shoot roughly where Han’s head is at. Right after the CGI dodge,we see Han’s head back at its original position, and it covers over the blast mark where Greedo’s shot hit:
Where Han's head is after the shot doesn't matter. The shot misses clear as day. Hell, it wasn't even close to hitting.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Greedo


Nute_Chethray wrote:Also this is a flawed argument from the start, since it relies entirely on it looking like Greedo missed due to old framework/CGI.
I doubt it would have been hard to make Han actually dodge. but this is besides the point.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Intent matters too. As for the Encyclopedia quote, it says Greedo missed yes. But if you shoot someone, they dodge the shot, and so your shot doesn’t hit where you intended it to, that is still considered a dodge. There is no way of circumventing the intent with the scene.
Alright. Fair. Lets see what official sources say on this, shall we?

Wide Margin:

Not only does he miss. It's by a "wide margin". And this quote implies Greedo missing is due to his own incompetence. Not Han's fast moves.

While it does say Greedo panic-fired because he saw what Han was gonna do.... This still isn't a good look for Greedo. He had Han dead to rights at point blank range and MISSED. Doesn't matter if he panicked. He had the damn blaster pointed right at Han since the beginning and he still missed.

This is sub basic sentient competence. (More on my Greedo Diss Track soon)


Nute_Chethray wrote:Finally we have the fact that we know Greedo can hit his targets since pre-training Greedo one shotted Gorm the Dissolver from a much greater distance than between him and Han in ANH, with an unfamiliar weapon no less:
Not so fast. For one, Greedo "oneshotted" a guy in the back who wasn't even aware of his presence. As is clearly shown in the webstrip and short story:

Short Story:

Webstrip:

Also based on an earlier panel, the distance between them wasn't that great either. It's not that far above point blank range:

Distance:

As for your point on it being an unfamiliar weapon, Greedo noted that the blaster had notable sights too. So he wasn't at a disadvantage. He had every possible advantage within the situation:

Greedo noticed for the first time that the one called Goa had an oversized blaster rifle slung on his back. He’d never seen a blaster that large. It was cased in scrolled black metal and layered with tubing and electronics. A custom job, Greedo thought. Look at the sights on that thing! I’ll bet that’s one bounty hunter who always gets his man.

-A Hunter’s Fate: Greedo’s Tale

More to the point: As per the very same Fact File entry you posted, Greedo felled Gorm with a "lucky shot"

Lucky Shot:

So it's safe to say that this was Flash of Brilliance (or in Greedo's case, Flash of Competence) Greedo. And not base TCW Greedo. So therefore:

Flash of Competence Greedo > Basic Sentient Competence >>> ANH Greedo >~ TCW Greedo

So there goes the idea of Greedo's parity or supremacy with Gorm.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Note that Gorm wears fully armour, is stated to be one of the galaxy’s deadliest bounty hunters, and most importantly, has come up against Mace Windu and survived:
It was a younger Windu anyway. Plus the Fact File quote you sent implies Gorm is Windu's inferior. It says:

Despite encountering Mace Windu, who was involved in the conflict in a policing capacity, Gorm managed to escape...

-Fact File 116

But that's all moot. Because even if Gorm scales to Windu, Greedo does not scale ot Gorm.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Which discredits the following chain of yours: TCW Greedo <<<< Jango Fett < AOTC Hero of Coruscant < ROTS Hero of Coruscant, since you know who killed Jango Fett?
Cheth. How could you disrespect Jango, the man who trained the Legendary BOBA FETT like this?  : (


Nute_Chethray wrote:Note also that even if Greedo was as fodder as you assumed he is, Greedo still would have been an added at least temporary distraction, and once HoC is downed by Malacia anyways Greedo could have so bad aim he hits one of every hundred shots and still have enough time to kill HoC.
Greedo is more likely to shoot himself on accident than be anything other than a non factor to the Hero. And as for Malacia, I've suitably addressed that.

In fact, I think Greedo would be more detrimental to his team. But that's besides the point.


Greedo Diss Track:



Now that I'm done with all that, allow me to write a mini disrespect thread on Greedo:


GREEDO Diss Track:


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) DEATH_OF_GREEDO


Conclusions:



-HoC's scaling, even if we lowball it to the absolute possible extremes, would still put him close enough to the likes of Yoda and Palpatine to scale far above Oppo.
-As impressive as Malacia is, it is not hax enough to make up for the massive gap between the Hero and Master Rancisis. And HoC no doubt knows Malacia exists so he'll know to look out for mental attacks.
-On the above note, any advantage Rancisis might have isn't hax enough. Neither his extra limbs nor his tail.
-HoC not being able to use certain attacks until later stages in his career doesn't mean he can't defend against them.
-Greedo dies. Potentially to himself given his incompetence.


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Image1


The stage is yours once again, Cheth. Best of luck PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1019854026
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