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AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

March 7th 2022, 8:59 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Hoc10

RNG as the Hero of Coruscant from Star Wars: Lightsaber Battle Game
Cheth as Oppo Rancisis from Star Wars: Republic - Siege of Saleucami

Rules:

-3 posts per side
-no character limit
-2 weeks between posts
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty The Power of the Self Insert:

March 11th 2022, 12:45 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

The Power of the Self Insert:



PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Image


Hype:

Now before we get started on the good stuff, lets look at some of the Hero of Coruscant's hype:

He's learned the signature moves of some of the Jedi order's finest. Such as the Qui Gon Strike, Obi Wan's Spinning Blade Defense, Mace Windu's Assault, Yoda's Finishing Blow, and Anakin's Rage:

Special Moves:


We already know he defeated TPM Maul extremely early on in his career. But did you know that he did so before he even knew how to use TK combatively?

Post Maul Fight Commentary:

This is no mean feat. Being able to defeat Maul solely by relying on saber skills. You could chalk this up just gameplay mechanics but the intent is clear. He defeated Maul while he was still very much green.


And finally, General Grievous considered the Hero to be maybe the best duelist he's ever seen

The Good General:


Anyway, that's all just hype. Not that important overall. But still worth noting. Now lets get to the really good stuff:


HoC's superiority in sabers:


There really isn't much to be said here. The sheer amount of wins HoC has under his belt against Oppo's superiors is insane. But to keep this concise, lets stick to the big ones for now:

Dooku, as early as TPM was held as one of the best swordsmen of the order. Being considered on equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda.

Jedi Dookster:

There's far more that supports this but you get the idea. We can put circa TPM Rancisis below circa TPM Dooku.

Dooku grows immensely upon falling to the dark side:

Dark Growth:

And this Dooku was defeated by The Hero of Coruscant:

Dooku Mission:

But that's not all. Dooku had to rely on multiple waves of droids to help him out in the fight. Yet he still ultimately lost.

Droids:

So we're given:

ROTS HoC > HoC circa AOTC > AOTC Dooku+Droids >~ AOTC Dooku without droids >>>> (via massive DS growth) >> Circa TPM Dooku > Circa TPM Oppo (Since Mace and Yoda were the only ones considered to be on the same tier as Dooku) <(Unknown amount)<19 BBY Oppo


Later on, the Hero goes on to fight and defeat Clone Wars Yoda in a spar.

Yodder Fight:

Yoda, in the fight had to use whatever the fuck these lightning balls were. He had to pull out all the stops in his spar with the Hero. Yet he still ultimately lost.

What the fuck are these things:

Yoda is held as the greatest swordsmen of the Jedi order:

The greatest swordsman ever to emerge from the Jedi ranks, Yoda was a wise and capable leader. Forced to flee Coruscant after being defeated by the Emperor, he spent his years in exile reflecting on the very nature of the Force.

-Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith COMMEMORATIVE TIN COLLECTION

So we're given this chain:

HoC > CW Yoda >>> Oppo


The Hero in ROTS is led into a trap designed to kill him. He fights and defeats ROTS Palpatine after facing scores of Clone Troopers:

ROTS Palpatine Mission:

This was shortly before Palpatine's famous duel with Yoda. Realistically Palps should be at the same level here as he was when he fought the little green bastard. Palpatine and Yoda are hyped up to be the most powerful practitioners of their respective sides at that point:

Encyclopedia:

There's far more quotes I can show for this but you get the idea. While the quote above would bind HoC, the fact that he contended, let alone defeated Palpatine would show that at the very least, he has parity with that class. Which is far and above Oppo's tier.

So we are given:

ROTS HoC >~< ROTS Palps >~ Yoda >>> Oppo


HoC's superiority in the Force:



This one's rather straightforward. While we have exceptions, generally force power correlates with dueling skill. Plus we know the duels HoC won weren't pure martial arts displays. He defended against force attacks. So there's no reason the above chains can't apply here in terms of force power.

But to further support the above claim, here's an IU source (Jaden Korr) basically outright saying dueling skill correlates with force power:

Jaden Korr:

So the above chains can apply here as well.


Oppo's fighting style and why it won't save him



Master Rancisis has a very unique fighting style. He is a master of the force ability known as Malacia. Something that induces dizziness and nausea in opponents.

However, I'd question how combatively viable it is for our purposes. As in all its descriptions, it isn't really portrayed as something that can be used within a fast paced duel.

Malacia's entry on the Encyclopedia:

It's something that takes immense focus.

In fact, Rancisis uses it so he can avoid having to cut down enemies with his saber.

Fact File 126:

To further emphasize the point, it would have been very useful in the fight in which he was ultimately cut down. Why didn't he use it then?

And even if it has application within conventional lightsaber combat, given the gap in raw power between the Hero of Coruscant and Rancisis, it's unlikely he'll break through the Hero's passive defenses.


And finally, we have Rancisis' dueling style. You could argue that his unorthodox style + tail attacks will be too much for the Hero to cope with but I see no reason to believe that. The Hero is more than capable of fending off attacks from multiple fronts. (As shown in his fight with Dooku.) A mere unique fighting style won't be enough for Rancisis to overcome the gap established in my chains.


The Death of Greedo



First and foremost, I think it's safe to say ANH Greedo is above TCW Greedo. At worst, he's on par or slightly below. But him being superior is more likely. Now that we've established that:

As per the highest level of canon, Greedo shot first in A New Hope. But lets inspect this further, shall we?

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Greedo

This is outright Greedo missing. Even if Han hadn't "dodged", Greedo would still have missed:

Greedo's entry on the Encyclopedia:

The range from which Greedo shot can be considered point blank

We are told this about shots from point blank range:

Seized with a sudden fear of what she was, what she might do to him next, he drew his duty blaster and red on her. It was point-blank range; he would have had to go to some effort to miss. His shot took her in the side and she fell over.

-Solo Command

Lets contrast that with the type of enemies HoC deals with. In AOTC, he defeats not only Jango Fett (who is more than capable of landing shots from point blank range in a neutral environment), but a bunch of Mandalorian Commandos that the Naboo security forces are "no match for".

Jango and Co:

Safe to say this puts HoC well above TCW Greedo's class.

So, we're left with the below chains:

-TCW Greedo <~ ANH Greedo <<< Basic sentient competence
-TCW Greedo <<<< Jango Fett < AOTC Hero of Coruscant < ROTS Hero of Coruscant


Conclusions/Recap:



-Due to HoC's performance against Oppo's superiors, it's safe to say he's well above Rancisis in both sabers and the Force.
-Rancisis' unique abilities, while impressive won't really make a difference. His abilities/hax are not that powerful or broken.
-Greedo dies.


And that concludes my opener.


The stage is yours.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

March 11th 2022, 2:57 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Potent opener, if the Hero of Coruscant actually existed I might start respecting him. Of course even a real Hero of Coruscant is vastly sub Rancisis, not to mention Greedo PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

March 11th 2022, 3:42 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Image_11
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 1st 2022, 7:20 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Grindo_and_oppo_beefsis

Master of the Council



Before I get into how Rancisis wins this battle, I will also contextualize his standing amongst the jedi order and the era:

Now we all know that Rancisis is a member of the jedi high council, consisting of the greatest jedi of the order, however even within the council there is a hierarchy, in which Rancisis is amongst the highest-ranking members. How do we know this? First of we have the fact that before Windu’s appointment to Master, Rancisis appeared to be the secondary master of the council (behind Yoda of course), being one of three councilors to speak upon the questioning of Dooku:

Legacy of the Jedi wrote:Dooku stood before the Jedi Council. He did not know if Lorian had come before him or would be appearing after. He only knew one thing: It was time to tell the truth. He described how Lorian had wanted them to take the Sith Holocron, and later, how Lorian had asked him to lie for him.

 "And were you prepared to lie for him?" Oppo Rancisis asked.

 Dooku took a moment before answering. He wanted to lie and say that he had never considered Lorian's request, yet he knew the Jedi Masters could see through him like water. He wasn't as powerful as they were, not yet.

And was the one leading the training of the padawans/initiates alongside Yoda:

Legacy of the Jedi wrote:Then Yoda and Oppo Rancisis emerged from the interior of the Temple. His gaze rested on Dooku only briefly, but it brought Dooku back to reality with a bump. His mood suddenly soured as he thought of the Jedi Council he would have to face.

 The students quieted as Yoda approached. He stood in the middle of the group, nodding greetings at the familiar faces. He'd known them all since they were babies and had trained them all when they were younglings.

 "In an exercise know you do that every year the oldest students participate," he said. "Urban tracking, this year's will be. That this is a test remember you must. Yet graded you will not be. Take it seriously but lightly you must. Attempt to win you will; if you lose, enjoy it you may."

 The students smiled at Yoda's contradictions and fiddled with their training lightsabers. Everyone was anxious to begin.

 "And now, the rules," Oppo said. "You will be divided into two teams of ten. In a moment, your team color will flash on your datapad. Each team will have a different starting point. The goal of each team is to successfully bring a muja fruit from one of the fruitsellers in the All Planets Market back to the Temple by sunset. Team members can be eliminated only by one light touch with a lightsaber."

 The students smiled. They knew that no matter how easy it sounded, the actual exercise would turn out to be much harder.

 "You must keep to the segment mapped out on your datapads. To cross the line is to be disqualified. Do you understand this?"

However after Mace became Master of the Order, Rancisis still can be seen as a tertiary master or something to that effect, being one of the most outspoken members on the council, being one of two masters discussing the Yinchorri uprising with Yoda after Mace’s departure, and being one of three masters (Yoda and Mace being the others) called in when an entire sector threatens to leave the Republic:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) VFiebEtqf5Uu_pZvndGiL_wenGewL83fkWJkd5R5NQ72hAgqRubWKHmtdhL-OYkYsMp_YhTPwOlHyL71BMyEGCsLM7mJduz0OZXQtO9O5OEGbRTzeHbGvjPjGsDpI1Sht_MBgqkO5ws1600

Rancisis is also one of five lifetime jedi masters on the council, the rest being temporary members:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 8427025-screenshot_20220328-020934

But perhaps most telling is Rancisis’ role in Quinlan’s trial. Despite the presence (some by holo) of Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Saesee Tiin, Rancisis is the one leading the trial:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 5xZHI-9E05G0tcABREL47DB4D1LYobKw5DEuTFl2M2dittdyQQRjLLYGOp4dGn0SQDnjGudjeE5Fs1600

And it is Rancisis who is ultimately given the sole responsibility of judging Quinlan:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) PHB2PaP-24ar8Y4xzmhgrNPNGTxvzFA-oe1Jpk2AfS65nNMwsL1PnyAIubLC2j4twoz18-cVnu0Ps1600

What is particularly noteworthy here is that Mace says that Rancisis is the “senior” member of the council on-site. While Mace himself isn’t on site (and obviously has higher seniority than Rancisis), this does put Rancisis on a higher rank than Tiin:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Tiin of course being a powerful jedi, specifically chosen to arrest Sidious, and Mace’s regular sparring partner:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Finally we have the most potent of all comparisons:

JEDI HIGH COUNCIL SEAT SCALING



Here in TPM, we see Depa Billaba sitting on the left end of the circle:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Latest

And in CW03, we see a different council, in Yaddle’s place sits Shaak Ti (as this is after Yaddle’s sacrifice), in place of Poof sits Fisto (as Poof also is dead at the time), and most importantly, we see that Kenobi has taken Depa’s seat in the council:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Screenshot_809

Now the skeptics amongst you may be questioning what on earth I’m talking about, but this is all relevant. Since in Revenge of the Sith, while the position of Adi Gallia had been taken by Stass Allie, and Eeth Koth by Agen Kolar, there is another high council member who had died: Rancisis. And the spot of Rancisis had been taken by: Obi-Wan?

Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Obi-Wan sat in the chair that once had belonged to Oppo Rancisis, looking pensive. Even worried."

Depa’s seat is in turn taken by Coleman Kcaj. The fact that Kenobi was moved instead of Kcaj simply taking Rancisis’ seat, and the fact that Kenobi’s seat is specifically referred to as the one of Rancisis, indicates that where one sits is relevant to one’s position in the Council. This is the time where Kenobi’s one of the most respected of the High Council, among the three greatest bar Anakin (once he joins), so it appears unreasonable that Kenobi would be lowered in position in favor of Kcaj.

So my argument is simple: Kenobi was given Rancisis’ seat since that's the seat of the third-highest council member, as argued before.

Lightsaber Syndrome

Chris Cortosis wrote:In fact, Rancisis uses it so he can avoid having to cut down enemies with his saber.

This quote interests me, since it implies that it is somehow detrimental for Rancisis to avoid using his lightsaber to kill people. But that is just the general mindset of jedi, they are supposed to avoid killing and violence at all costs:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

If he was just some guy waving his lightsaber around at every opportunity he would be suffering from lightsaber syndrome, which is completely irrelevant but I thought the scan was funny ( PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1076326320 )

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

However this doesn’t somehow lower their skill in combat. On the contrary, jedi constantly train with their lightsabers (except for specific exceptions like Fay):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And during the clone wars all jedi became warriors:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

It is particularly an odd suggestion since Rancisis comes from a warrior culture/species:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And Rancisis himself is a skilled warrior, as he beat the Monarch of the planet in hand-to-hand combat:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

The fact that he seems old and calm all the time is just a general trait of his species, it doesn’t make them any less capable in combat when the time comes:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Master of Malacia



Chris Cortosis wrote:However, I'd question how combatively viable it is for our purposes. As in all its descriptions, it isn't really portrayed as something that can be used within a fast paced duel.

I guess you can look forwards to looking at any of its descriptions then PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304

Jedi vs Sith confirms that its used against “opponents” and is a “powerful defense”, both of which indicate it being used in combat. Rancisis even tells of using it on a whole group of warriors at once:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

The Encyclopedia entry for Rancisis also states its used against “enemies”:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

But most amusing is checking the quotes you sent. Lets start with the encyclopedia entry on Malacia. It specifically states Rancisis used it “in combat”:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And although the scan you posted doesn’t include that part, Fact Files 126 states that Malacia is a “martial art”, which per definition is a form used in combat:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Your argument for why its unusable in combat is contradicted by any source speaking of it, including the ones you posted. Your argument hinges on the term “difficult”, but something being difficult does not make it unusable right? Most jedi would consider higher powers difficult, but thats why only masters use them; since they’ve mastered them. It doesn’t prevent them from being used in combat.

Now while you already have described some of its effects, nausea and dizziness, that does not fully explain why its so useful in this matchup. First of there’s the fact that it outright incapitates opponents, which for obvious reasons would be a huge advantage for Rancisis, as he or GREEDO could simply kill him while he’s down:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

But there’s also how its done. Malacia specifically turns equilibrium and someone’s strength against them and thereby causes these effects:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Which means that arguments like this don’t work:

Chris Cortosis wrote:And even if it has application within conventional lightsaber combat, given the gap in raw power between the Hero of Coruscant and Rancisis, it's unlikely he'll break through the Hero's passive defenses.

Since HoC’s defenses would only take part in overwhelming him more quickly. And the stronger they are the weaker they are to MALACIA

Chris Cortosis wrote:To further emphasize the point, it would have been very useful in the fight in which he was ultimately cut down. Why didn't he use it then?

Any reader of this debate who has read Republic requires no explanation for why this argument is flawed. But for those that have not, I will counter this argument. To start, prior to his death he had been using battle meditation for five months:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

To specify, he is using it to do three things at once.

1. He’s using it to create battleplans for victory in the current siege.

2. He’s using it to lead and strengthen his forces, weakening the enemies, and predicting their every move.

3. And he’s using it to do galaxy-wide battle meditation, only being stopped by the darkside, which he specifically says is the only thing blocking him. Which indicates he could have accomplished it if not for the darkside bubble. Even naturally gifted or great practitioners like Odan-Urr, Thon, Nomi Sunrider, Yoda, and Arca Jeth have at most used it on fleet/city-based environments.

All of this causes him to be “exhausted”:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Then Dooku and Bulq specifically make a battle occur at the same time they send assassins, to distract Rancisis and put him at his “most vulnerable”:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) KJSKGTQOjXrb53Pq2supBMCxen8-lcHI8-jE6Qvz62wNT_e-pN-Bm1E7fVgJpmAu4P9RUcBUxz6ts1600

Yet even at his weakest he senses them mid-BM, and proceeds to kill all of them except one in three panels, the last only surviving because he asked him to surrender (and note, the battle still ends with the Republic winning, indicating he was still using BM mid-fight):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Cs1bW9JAj0Y8cS_Q19OI28Wp80L08U3Noo563S2eKjFE7DHQfUtPsm9JAP5kEPBsdWANb2NK81ixs1600
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) WWs0GfX358axXmkYIG1G3xTHfs2VLh8AkZiMl9Q4O3g2YxDglkD2tVCQLs0omKi0zV89d49vnZ4ks1600

For context these assassins aren’t random fodder, they’re every single one of the Anzati Masters (except one staying on-planet) attacking him at once. A single master put Tholme (who Dooku praises for his skill), at an impasse:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) DRUQkcmxRlTjqwIZ9TKBctex2K_46wHz3VL2_g9l0ZO5Y-v_Ymug2acZ-PqUL14nvvGCHcUzNvUHs1600
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Rm3x27tbA3alAI_jcxlzkV3j6qc99eEz8Bqpuk4aMDTk0TQZKzIYtAGGHZGxumheqfvEzDjyqvnvs1600

And a non-master assassin pressed Quinlan Vos:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) QAGLpiWuu3gOUlP_v5DmPHWnyOXgQjhoMntwU-UgRgHp771M2VQC_7lJRj2t_Y1REl4zhdd5SnaBs1600

Even while barely capable of standing he oneshots the last anzati master. Now tell me, at what point in this fight did Rancisis need to whip out his most powerful technique?

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3TxEpb9DDjSCyKRdFa5sYaXEcF6QGLGwciRLw2h5w4ghfec1HzOevdG-3KCIbn9qVeGYCV7uVNN4s1600

Finally, the distraction battle putting an already exhausted Rancisis at his weakest, and every single Tholme-tier master of an entire species ambushing him, were all just a distraction for Bulq to sneak up on him and stab him from behind, at which point there was no opportunity to use Malacia:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) OqJWGdb_UNKu_1V8EIbK-qU5PZLBQuPe3x-OzLamUfhcZD_jXtqeclx5XJ_oXS20Dth1d2goTi2-s1600

The fact that Rancisis went through all of this and Bulq still would not face him directly, is telling of how dangerous he is in combat. Particularly since a pre-prime Bulq was unafraid to challenge Mace Windu, and even stalemated him in pure dueling (though was ragdolled by force attacks):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 4451231-sora%20bulq%20vs%20mace%20windu%202
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 4451232-sora%20bulq%20vs%20mace%20windu%203
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 4451233-sora%20bulq%20vs%20mace%20windu%204

And the Bulq that backstabbed Rancisis had gone through training at the hands of Dooku, to the point where he considered himself more powerful than Mace (which of course, is not necessarily true. But the fact he goes from being ragdolled to thinking himself superior signifies great growth):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Jykfh4blas261

Master with the blade, neophyte in the Force



There is no disagreeing with the fact that HoC is one of the most skilled duelists in the PT. However I do want to quickly address two things. First we have the fact that in most instances, HoC has fighting styles specifically suited for fighting the opponents he faces. For example, against Yoda, he was specifically taught Yoda’s fighting style before they sparred:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Against Anakin and KFV, he also was specifically taught Anakin’s fighting style:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Rage10

And like you stated he has knowledge of Kenobi’s, Mace’s, and Jinn’s fighting styles. In other words he’s perfectly suited to fight those opponents he faces. But how would any of these styles translate into fighting Rancisis, who has a fighting style specific to his species, one which HoC has no experience with? Rancisis on the other hand has personally witnessed the training of Dooku, Mace, Jinn, Kenobi, Anakin, etc., and has seen centuries of jedi, so nothing HoC could do would catch him off guard.

Next I want to establish that while HoC is skilled with the blade, he’s completely inept with the force. Like you said, while HoC was a padawan he didn’t even know force push:

Chris Cortosis wrote:But did you know that he did so before he even knew how to use TK combatively?

This is despite even initiates learning how to wield the force:

Jedi Path wrote:As Jedi Initiates you were learn and hone many abilities that draw upon The Force. These abilities fall under 3 themes: Control, Sense and Alter. Control is centered on one's own body and is the focus of training for Initiates. Used properly your Control abilities will allow you to survive injury and decay, extending your service to the Order by decades.

But thats not all, HoC also didn’t learn how to use lightsaber throw until after he fought Sidious:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Note that at this point, HoC had already been a jedi master for a while:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

So for HoC’s standards, lightsaber throw is a high-tier esoteric. Making it impossible that HoC would have any knowledge of how to fight off Malacia.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 5809025-5702239755-giphy
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Addtext_com_MDYzMDAyMjM1ODM

Contradictory evidence/flawed comparisons



While I will go in depth on counters in my main post, there are certain inconsistencies I want to point out right away. And note some stances presented here are not necessarily ones I have, but are just the results of your own arguments and chains:

Chris Cortosis wrote:Dooku, as early as TPM was held as one of the best swordsmen of the order. Being considered on equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda.

Your argument = TPM Dooku ~ Yoda.

Chris Cortosis wrote:Dooku grows immensely upon falling to the dark side:

Chris Cortosis wrote:AOTC Dooku without droids >>>> (via massive DS growth) >> Circa TPM Dooku

Which gives us the following chain: AOTC Dooku without droids >>>> (via massive DS growth) >> Circa TPM Dooku ~ Yoda. AOTC Dooku is multiple stomps gaps above Yoda according to your case. Which is obviously factually wrong:



Amusingly we also get the following from your chains:

Chris Cortosis wrote:Circa TPM Dooku > Circa TPM Oppo

Your argument = TPM Dooku ~ Yoda > Circa TPM Oppo

Chris Cortosis wrote:Circa TPM Oppo (Since Mace and Yoda were the only ones considered to be on the same tier as Dooku) <(Unknown amount)<19 BBY Oppo

Your argument = TPM Dooku ~ Yoda > Circa TPM Oppo <(Unknown amount)<19 BBY Oppo

Which roughly leaves = Yoda < 19 BBY Oppo, which based on the Dooku fight leaves us with 19BBY Oppo > Yoda > Aotc Dooku.

Solution to this inconsistency? While Dooku has grown since TPM, the growth can’t allow him to rank up a tier as he still has to be on “equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda”. A more accurate way to write your original chain is: ROTS HoC > AotC HoC > AotC Dooku ~ Yoda ~ TPM Dooku. Of course this is still a flawed chain due to Yoda’s placement, but you’ll see that in the next two chains.




Next inconsistency:

Chris Cortosis wrote:Later on, the Hero goes on to fight and defeat Clone Wars Yoda in a spar.

Chris Cortosis wrote:Yoda is held as the greatest swordsmen of the Jedi order:

Your argument: HoC > Yoda > All jedi in the order (including HoC). Obvious solution to the contradiction; it's a training duel, so Yoda doesn’t perform as he would in a real fight. Fixed chain would simply be: Yoda > HoC




Next inconsistency:

Chris Cortosis wrote:Palpatine and Yoda are hyped up to be the most powerful practitioners of their respective sides at that point

Chris Cortosis wrote:ROTS HoC >~< ROTS Palps >~ Yoda

Your argument (potentially): ROTS HoC > Palps > Yoda > All other forcusers (including HoC)

The only non-contradictory way to read your chain is: ROTS HoC < Palps ~ Yoda > All other forcusers (including HoC), however that leaves HoC unable to scale from Palps and Yoda as he’s below both. You still argue:

Chris Cortosis wrote:ROTS HoC >~< ROTS Palps >~ Yoda >>> Oppo

Which even with contradiction fixed would be: ROTS HoC < Palps ~ Yoda >>> Oppo, But no evidence is provided for the >>> gap between Yoda and Oppo. In fact based on the first inconsistency, the following is true: Yoda < 19 BBY Oppo. Which leads us with HoC < Yoda < 19 BBY Oppo.

Note again, these are not stances I have, or feel the need to argue. However there are significant inconsistencies amongst your arguments and chains. Each of the arguments used to argue HoC > Oppo in power contradicts itself from the start. So no gap between the two in power or skill is proven.




Flawed argument:

Chris Cortosis wrote:And finally, we have Rancisis' dueling style. You could argue that his unorthodox style + tail attacks will be too much for the Hero to cope with but I see no reason to believe that. The Hero is more than capable of fending off attacks from multiple fronts. (As shown in his fight with Dooku.) A mere unique fighting style won't be enough for Rancisis to overcome the gap established in my chains.

The “attacks from multiple fronts” are four droids shooting at him at once. Dooku stands still while it happens (the first droid dies too quickly to get a picture with all four facing forwards, but you see their legs):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

You can’t argue that deflecting shots from 4 shooters = a jedi using 4 arms and a tail to attack all at once, which he has in the past:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Cs1bW9JAj0Y8cS_Q19OI28Wp80L08U3Noo563S2eKjFE7DHQfUtPsm9JAP5kEPBsdWANb2NK81ixs1600

Chris Cortosis wrote:A mere unique fighting style won't be enough for Rancisis to overcome the gap established in my chains.

Which gap?

GREEDO SUPREMACY



Chris Cortosis wrote:First and foremost, I think it's safe to say ANH Greedo is above TCW Greedo. At worst, he's on par or slightly below. But him being superior is more likely. Now that we've established that:

ANH Greedo might be slightly superior to TCW Greedo, since he was trained by two bounty hunters in between the time periods. But the training was short and minimal, mostly restricted to general advice. So there is nothing suggesting a noticeable gap.

Actually, Greedo does shoot roughly where Han’s head is at. Right after the CGI dodge,we see Han’s head back at its original position, and it covers over the blast mark where Greedo’s shot hit:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Also this is a flawed argument from the start, since it relies entirely on it looking like Greedo missed due to old framework/CGI. If it would have missed anyways, why would they have edited in a dodge with CGI? Intent matters too. As for the Encyclopedia quote, it says Greedo missed yes. But if you shoot someone, they dodge the shot, and so your shot doesn’t hit where you intended it to, that is still considered a dodge. There is no way of circumventing the intent with the scene.

Finally we have the fact that we know Greedo can hit his targets since pre-training Greedo one shotted Gorm the Dissolver from a much greater distance than between him and Han in ANH, with an unfamiliar weapon no less:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Note that Gorm wears fully armour, is stated to be one of the galaxy’s deadliest bounty hunters, and most importantly, has come up against Mace Windu and survived:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Which leaves us with the following chain: GREEDO > Gorm ~ Mace Windu

Which discredits the following chain of yours: TCW Greedo <<<< Jango Fett < AOTC Hero of Coruscant < ROTS Hero of Coruscant, since you know who killed Jango Fett?

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

This guy. So the following chain is instead true: GREEDO > Gorm ~ Mace Windu > Jango Fett < AOTC Hero of Coruscant < ROTS Hero of Coruscant. Which leads us with:

GREEDO = ROTS Hero of Coruscant. Even a much weaker character than Rancisis would be then enough to tip the scales in favour of GREEDO.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Addtext_com_MDYyMzAyMjM1NTA

Note also that even if Greedo was as fodder as you assumed he is, Greedo still would have been an added at least temporary distraction, and once HoC is downed by Malacia anyways Greedo could have so bad aim he hits one of every hundred shots and still have enough time to kill HoC.  

Conclusion


- Oppo Rancisis is the third-greatest jedi of the order prior to his death.
- Rancisis is no less a fighter than HoC.
- Malacia is a fully viable tool in combat, and one which would oneshot HoC
- There is no way HoC is masterful enough in the force to block Malacia
- HoC had advantages in every duel, but would not here.
- All of the chains for HoC’s superiority are contradictory, flawed, or just put Oppo above Yoda/HoC level

- Greedo missed only since Han dodged.
- Greedo has hit shots before.
- Based on your scalings Greed = HoC
- Greedo would have value even if he was useless.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown


Last edited by Nute_Chethray on April 1st 2022, 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 1st 2022, 9:12 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
ngl, this post was great. arguments aside, the amount of stuff i just learned about oppo is crazy lol holy shit, great stuff cheth. imma save this shit ngl to u
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 1st 2022, 10:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:ngl, this post was great. arguments aside, the amount of stuff i just learned about oppo is crazy lol holy shit, great stuff cheth. imma save this shit ngl to u

Thanks alot, glad you liked it mate PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 228124001
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April 1st 2022, 1:31 pm
Excellent post  @Nute_Chethray. I had extremely high expectations for your post, and you blew em all out of the water. Will try to respond soon. This'll be a very fun debate.
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 1st 2022, 4:49 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Chris Cortosis wrote:Excellent post  @Nute_Chethray. I had extremely high expectations for your post, and you blew em all out of the water. Will try to respond soon. This'll be a very fun debate.

Thank you so much for the high praise, and yeah it'll be great, can't wait to see you try and fail to debunk GREEDO SCALING PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304 . Also no worries on how long it takes, I took way too long myself lol
Chris Cortosis
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Part 2 of the Self Insert's Supremacy

April 7th 2022, 12:01 am

The Self Insert's Supremacy


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown


This post is mostly just responses but stay tuned till the end for my mini disrespect thread on Greedo. PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304

Anyway, let's begin.


Responses:



Nute_Chethray wrote:Before I get into how Rancisis wins this battle, I will also contextualize his standing amongst the jedi order and the era:

Now we all know that Rancisis is a member of the jedi high council, consisting of the greatest jedi of the order, however even within the council there is a hierarchy, in which Rancisis is amongst the highest-ranking members. How do we know this? First of we have the fact that before Windu’s appointment to Master, Rancisis appeared to be the secondary master of the council (behind Yoda of course), being one of three councilors to speak upon the questioning of Dooku:
--
And was the one leading the training of the padawans/initiates alongside Yoda:
--
However after Mace became Master of the Order, Rancisis still can be seen as a tertiary master or something to that effect, being one of the most outspoken members on the council, being one of two masters discussing the Yinchorri uprising with Yoda after Mace’s departure, and being one of three masters (Yoda and Mace being the others) called in when an entire sector threatens to leave the Republic:
--
Rancisis is also one of five lifetime jedi masters on the council, the rest being temporary members:
--
But perhaps most telling is Rancisis’ role in Quinlan’s trial. Despite the presence (some by holo) of Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Saesee Tiin, Rancisis is the one leading the trial:
--
And it is Rancisis who is ultimately given the sole responsibility of judging Quinlan:
While this is all impressive, it doesn't really amount to much within a 1v1 (2v1 in our case) deathmatch. It does speak highly for Rancisis that he's the one trusted to judge Vos, but it's all moot point at the end of the day as it doesn't have much bearing on combative ability. Clout within the order only gets you so far. We wouldn't place the likes of Tionne or Kenth Hamner highly just because they have important positions within the order. Would we?


Nute_Chethray wrote:What is particularly noteworthy here is that Mace says that Rancisis is the “senior” member of the council on-site. While Mace himself isn’t on site (and obviously has higher seniority than Rancisis), this does put Rancisis on a higher rank than Tiin:
In terms of authority to make decisions, sure. Hell, I'm okay with granting that this extends to power level supremacy over Tiin too. Though it's not that important, as I'll get into soon.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Tiin of course being a powerful jedi, specifically chosen to arrest Sidious, and Mace’s regular sparring partner:
It's funny you should mention this. Because.......

Mace goes to Plo to actually test his skills in a spar:

I won't say Mace chooses to spar with Tiin because it'd be an easy win for him but......

No matter what CuckedCurry tells you, Tiin is trash! PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1019854026


Nute_Chethray wrote:Depa’s seat is in turn taken by Coleman Kcaj. The fact that Kenobi was moved instead of Kcaj simply taking Rancisis’ seat, and the fact that Kenobi’s seat is specifically referred to as the one of Rancisis, indicates that where one sits is relevant to one’s position in the Council. This is the time where Kenobi’s one of the most respected of the High Council, among the three greatest bar Anakin (once he joins), so it appears unreasonable that Kenobi would be lowered in position in favor of Kcaj.
--
So my argument is simple: Kenobi was given Rancisis’ seat since that's the seat of the third-highest council member, as argued before.
Damn..... the Kcaj disrespect on display here :_(

Jokes aside, this is cool and all but all it does is raise Kenobi. Doesn't really raise Oppo. And as I said earlier, it's more a matter of Rancisis having clout than actual power levels or combative effectiveness.


Nute_Chethray wrote:This quote interests me, since it implies that it is somehow detrimental for Rancisis to avoid using his lightsaber to kill people. But that is just the general mindset of jedi, they are supposed to avoid killing and violence at all costs:
My intent was moreso to say that Malacia is meant to stop confrontations before they happen. And I don't see it being used to great effectiveness within lightsaber duels.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Jedi vs Sith confirms that its used against “opponents” and is a “powerful defense”, both of which indicate it being used in combat. Rancisis even tells of using it on a whole group of warriors at once:
The use of "opponents" and "powerful defense" doesn't really preclude the notion of it being used to end fights before they start. Plus it's stated to be similar in use to mind tricks. As the JvS scan you've sent says. Though even then, I'm more than happy to grant that it can be used combatively. Against non force users. Since they're the only ones it's documented as being used against.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Your argument for why its unusable in combat is contradicted by any source speaking of it, including the ones you posted. Your argument hinges on the term “difficult”, but something being difficult does not make it unusable right? Most jedi would consider higher powers difficult, but thats why only masters use them; since they’ve mastered them. It doesn’t prevent them from being used in combat.
Yeah. it's "difficult" to use against non force users. Just imagine how much harder it'd be to use it against a force user within a fast paced lightsaber duel.


Nute_Chethray wrote:But there’s also how its done. Malacia specifically turns equilibrium and someone’s strength against them and thereby causes these effects:
--
Since HoC’s defenses would only take part in overwhelming him more quickly. And the stronger they are the weaker they are to MALACIA
The Jedi vs Sith quote from Oppo you've sent here only accounts for non force sensitives. They don't have force barriers. And therefore they can't resist. That will not be a problem for the Hero as his potent barrier can just sense the ability and block it. Malacia, while an extremely potent ability, isn't nearly that tier of hax. Otherwise, Jedi wouldn't resort to simple mind tricks and force pushes when an ability that can insta-ragdoll force users exists. In every single source, it's described merely as something that's an alternative to more basic powers.

Plo Koon has the ability to use it. Yet never does so in any of his fights against force users. You could argue that it's because he isn't as good with it as Oppo and while that's fair, it'd still have come in handy in some of his fights. The point stands. Malacia doesn't just ignore force barriers:

Plo Koon:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Any reader of this debate who has read Republic requires no explanation for why this argument is flawed. But for those that have not, I will counter this argument. To start, prior to his death he had been using battle meditation for five months:
--
To specify, he is using it to do three things at once.

1. He’s using it to create battleplans for victory in the current siege.

2. He’s using it to lead and strengthen his forces, weakening the enemies, and predicting their every move.

3. And he’s using it to do galaxy-wide battle meditation, only being stopped by the darkside, which he specifically says is the only thing blocking him. Which indicates he could have accomplished it if not for the darkside bubble. Even naturally gifted or great practitioners like Odan-Urr, Thon, Nomi Sunrider, Yoda, and Arca Jeth have at most used it on fleet/city-based environments.

All of this causes him to be “exhausted”:
--
Then Dooku and Bulq specifically make a battle occur at the same time they send assassins, to distract Rancisis and put him at his “most vulnerable”:
--
Yet even at his weakest he senses them mid-BM, and proceeds to kill all of them except one in three panels, the last only surviving because he asked him to surrender (and note, the battle still ends with the Republic winning, indicating he was still using BM mid-fight):
While the circumstances behind this fight were considerable, you are wrong in his reason for not using it. As was I.

Whether it was Ostrander's intent or not, we know Malacia requires line of sight. And as we can see, he was surrounded and not constantly facing all his enemies, so he couldn't consistently keep its effects up. We can safely say that it simply wasn't convenient to use here.

Fight:

Line of Sight:

So I'll relent on my original point regarding the potential application of Malacia in Rancisis' final fight. Unfortunately, it won't do Rancisis much good. Given that HoC should vastly outstrip Oppo in speed. So he can simply just get out of Master Rancisis' line of sight. (And likely blitz him)

I know what you're thinking "But our Hero won't know Rancisis can use Malacia". Well stay tuned as that will be addressed shortly.


Nute_Chethray wrote:For context these assassins aren’t random fodder, they’re every single one of the Anzati Masters (except one staying on-planet) attacking him at once. A single master put Tholme (who Dooku praises for his skill), at an impasse:
I'm not sure I get what you mean. The impasse in question was regarding Tholme's search for answers in his investigation. Not a martial arts contest. You could imply they're close in combative ability because that master taught Tholme for a time but even that's rather suspect.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And a non-master assassin pressed Quinlan Vos:
Bit of a stretch. Vos was trying to pump her for info. Not kill her. We know that tends to extend fights longer than they need to be.

Plus, looking at the entire fight, it's clear she can't even take him combatively. Why else would she run away to change the playing field to something more advantageous?

Running Away:

And even if I were to grant that she's close to him and could press him in a conventional melee, who cares? Because as we see in the very next panel, the second he decides to use the force, he insta ragdolls her.

No more Mister Nice Guy:

Sure these Anzati are slightly more impressive than the average fodder but they're nowhere near the beasts you imply.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Particularly since a pre-prime Bulq was unafraid to challenge Mace Windu, and even stalemated him in pure dueling (though was ragdolled by force attacks):
I applaud your usage of Bulq's fight with Mace. However, there's a couple glaring problems  outright:

1: Not being scared doesn't mean anything.
2: Windu and Bulq used to be sparring partners. They developed Vaapad together. The fact that they fought relatively evenly in sabers is more a testament to Bulq being familiar with Windu's moves. And while generally, the same could be true in reverse (Windu knowing all of Bulq's moves), it's clear that Bulq's style and moves have changed. It's implied by him saying "I have perfected it. I have harnessed all that is inherent in it."

You can point to them being sparring partners as a sign of parity but the problem with that is that Windu was also partners with Tiin. And we all know how massive the gap between them is. Same for Koon.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And the Bulq that backstabbed Rancisis had gone through training at the hands of Dooku, to the point where he considered himself more powerful than Mace (which of course, is not necessarily true. But the fact he goes from being ragdolled to thinking himself superior signifies great growth):
If Bulq was anywhere near Windu overall, Palpatine would just have him killed. We see how he felt about Ventress when she grew too powerful. It's safe to assume that Bulq was a good distance from that threshold.

Ventress was betrayed in the same year that she fought Windu on Coruscant. Being around that level means an acolyte is too powerful to be allowed to live. At least in Palpatine's view.

The point is, there is no reason to treat Bulq's taunting of Tholme here as anything more than a taunt. At worst, it's him trying to scare Tholme. At best, it's a case of an overinflated ego.

In fact, lets look at it another way, if Bulq was able to actually fight on par with Windu, he wouldn't have needed to create the diversion. Given that Windu is Rancisis' superior. And given that Rancisis was exhausted. Point is, Sora is trash compared to any of the best masters (HoC, Windu, Rancisis, etc)


Nute_Chethray wrote:There is no disagreeing with the fact that HoC is one of the most skilled duelists in the PT. However I do want to quickly address two things. First we have the fact that in most instances, HoC has fighting styles specifically suited for fighting the opponents he faces. For example, against Yoda, he was specifically taught Yoda’s fighting style before they sparred:
He was only taught one move. And as I pointed out in my first post, Yoda also had to use some weird fucking esoteric lightning balls. HoC had zero knowledge on those and still won. (More on this later)


Nute_Chethray wrote:Against Anakin and KFV, he also was specifically taught Anakin’s fighting style:
Again, just one move.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And like you stated he has knowledge of Kenobi’s, Mace’s, and Jinn’s fighting styles. In other words he’s perfectly suited to fight those opponents he faces. But how would any of these styles translate into fighting Rancisis, who has a fighting style specific to his species, one which HoC has no experience with? Rancisis on the other hand has personally witnessed the training of Dooku, Mace, Jinn, Kenobi, Anakin, etc., and has seen centuries of jedi, so nothing HoC could do would catch him off guard.
One move is not an entire fighting style. His wins aren't bogged down by that since in most cases, the opponents whose moves he's learned use other techniques that isn't taught to the Hero. And he won those spars fair and square. And guess what? The Hero had zero knowledge on the fighting styles of Maul, Dooku, Grievous, or Palpatine.

To address your point regarding Oppo witnessing the training of some of HoC's opponents, sure. He may have witnessed their training. But did he have experience with or an understanding of their signature moves? I think not. And even if he did, the number of moves HoC has at his disposal will be hard for Oppo to deal with.

Chuck Norris tells us that changing up styles or moves can throw enemies off balance. HoC can do that with ease.

Chuck Norris:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Next I want to establish that while HoC is skilled with the blade, he’s completely inept with the force. Like you said, while HoC was a padawan he didn’t even know force push:
--
This is despite even initiates learning how to wield the force:
Very clever of you to turn my wank into anti-wank, Cheth. Unfortunately, it won't do Rancisis much good.


Nute_Chethray wrote:But thats not all, HoC also didn’t learn how to use lightsaber throw until after he fought Sidious:
This is not an anti feat. This means HoC can win without needing to use hax. A further testament to his power and more legitimacy to my scaling chains.


Nute_Chethray wrote:So for HoC’s standards, lightsaber throw is a high-tier esoteric. Making it impossible that HoC would have any knowledge of how to fight off Malacia.
On the contrary, you've done a beautiful job of establishing Master Rancisis' clout within the order. He's a very prominent figure. And as we see in several IU sources, he wasn't secretive about Malacia. So despite not knowing how to use it, our Hero is doubtless very well aware that it exists and that Oppo can use it. Meaning he'll know what to look out for. Meaning either:

A: He'll put up his mental force barrier.
B: He'll get out of the line of sight of Oppo, and then proceed to speedblitz him.
Not knowing something doesn't equate to being helpless against it. It's doubtful Zannah could use her Sith Sorcery TP on someone like Anakin. Sure, hax are a thing but in this case, it won't win Rancisis the fight.


Now onto your points regarding my scaling


Nute_Chethray wrote:Your argument = TPM Dooku ~ Yoda.
That was not my intent. Allow me to correct myself. My intent was Jedi Dooku > everyone else. Not necessarily Yoda. Him being "considered on equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda" means that they're the big three of the order. We don't quite know the gaps between the big three but we do know that they're the best of the best.

But allow me to present more evidence for Jedi Dooku>Everyone else:

Jedi Dooku:

To clarify, I don't need Circa TPM Dooku~Circa TPM Yoda. Just TPM Dooku>Rancisis


Nute_Chethray wrote:Which gives us the following chain: AOTC Dooku without droids >>>> (via massive DS growth) >> Circa TPM Dooku ~ Yoda. AOTC Dooku is multiple stomps gaps above Yoda according to your case. Which is obviously factually wrong:
Ignoring my clarification above, your point here assumes that Yoda doesn't grow massively after TPM. Which is puzzling since he's strong in the Force. Why wouldn't he grow?


Nute_Chethray wrote:Your argument: HoC > Yoda > All jedi in the order (including HoC). Obvious solution to the contradiction; it's a training duel
If a feat outright contradicts a quote, I see no reason to favor the quote more. At least in a one to one comparison like this one. But if we bind the Hero under the quote, then a better solution would simply be HoC>~>> Oppo, But no evidence is provided for the >>> gap between Yoda and Oppo.
Why would the gap between Yoda and Rancisis not be massive? We know that Yoda and Windu are above him. And given that Windu needed the superconducting loop amp to challenge Palps and Yoda didn't... well. Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis.

Yoda>Mace:

My saying "Yoda >>> Oppo" was a generous estimate for Rancisis.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Note again, these are not stances I have, or feel the need to argue. However there are significant inconsistencies amongst your arguments and chains. Each of the arguments used to argue HoC > Oppo in power contradicts itself from the start. So no gap between the two in power or skill is proven.
Sure, supremacy quotes may be binding to HoC. But at the end of the day, he is fighting on par with and defeating Rancisis' superiors. Feats should outstrip quotes. But even if we are to grant that HoC is sub Yoda and Palpatine: Realistically, it has to be by a razor thin margin. Oppo simply does not have such comparisons. He's consistently written as an inferior to the people HoC is beating. The worst case scenario for my chains are: HoC<~Yoda>>Oppo.


Now onto the Dooku and the droids thing.


Nute_Chethray wrote:The “attacks from multiple fronts” are four droids shooting at him at once. Dooku stands still while it happens (the first droid dies too quickly to get a picture with all four facing forwards, but you see their legs):
I'll relent on my point here, however another thing to keep in mind regarding this fight:

Would Oppo press Dooku enough that he jumps back to let droids fire? Doubtful.


Nute_Chethray wrote:You can’t argue that deflecting shots from 4 shooters = a jedi using 4 arms and a tail to attack all at once, which he has in the past:
Regarding the tail, unlike the Anzati, HoC has a lightsaber. I'm sure that if Oppo goes for a tail whip, HoC can just relieve Master Rancisis of his tail. Gg.

Though, it's funny you should mention 4 arms, since our Hero can counter Grievous' onslaught. Sure he's not attacking with all arms at once in this clip. But given Grievous' speed, might as well be.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Download

Plus, it's not like Rancisis' extra arms will come into play in non bladelock situations. So the advantage is moot. He'll only be able to use 2-3 arms since 1-2 will be used to hold his saber. Like what's he even gonna do? Throw a punch? That's useless outside of bladelocks.


Now onto your points regarding your team's most powerful member.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Actually, Greedo does shoot roughly where Han’s head is at. Right after the CGI dodge,we see Han’s head back at its original position, and it covers over the blast mark where Greedo’s shot hit:
Where Han's head is after the shot doesn't matter. The shot misses clear as day. Hell, it wasn't even close to hitting.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Greedo


Nute_Chethray wrote:Also this is a flawed argument from the start, since it relies entirely on it looking like Greedo missed due to old framework/CGI.
I doubt it would have been hard to make Han actually dodge. but this is besides the point.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Intent matters too. As for the Encyclopedia quote, it says Greedo missed yes. But if you shoot someone, they dodge the shot, and so your shot doesn’t hit where you intended it to, that is still considered a dodge. There is no way of circumventing the intent with the scene.
Alright. Fair. Lets see what official sources say on this, shall we?

Wide Margin:

Not only does he miss. It's by a "wide margin". And this quote implies Greedo missing is due to his own incompetence. Not Han's fast moves.

While it does say Greedo panic-fired because he saw what Han was gonna do.... This still isn't a good look for Greedo. He had Han dead to rights at point blank range and MISSED. Doesn't matter if he panicked. He had the damn blaster pointed right at Han since the beginning and he still missed.

This is sub basic sentient competence. (More on my Greedo Diss Track soon)


Nute_Chethray wrote:Finally we have the fact that we know Greedo can hit his targets since pre-training Greedo one shotted Gorm the Dissolver from a much greater distance than between him and Han in ANH, with an unfamiliar weapon no less:
Not so fast. For one, Greedo "oneshotted" a guy in the back who wasn't even aware of his presence. As is clearly shown in the webstrip and short story:

Short Story:

Webstrip:

Also based on an earlier panel, the distance between them wasn't that great either. It's not that far above point blank range:

Distance:

As for your point on it being an unfamiliar weapon, Greedo noted that the blaster had notable sights too. So he wasn't at a disadvantage. He had every possible advantage within the situation:

Greedo noticed for the first time that the one called Goa had an oversized blaster rifle slung on his back. He’d never seen a blaster that large. It was cased in scrolled black metal and layered with tubing and electronics. A custom job, Greedo thought. Look at the sights on that thing! I’ll bet that’s one bounty hunter who always gets his man.

-A Hunter’s Fate: Greedo’s Tale

More to the point: As per the very same Fact File entry you posted, Greedo felled Gorm with a "lucky shot"

Lucky Shot:

So it's safe to say that this was Flash of Brilliance (or in Greedo's case, Flash of Competence) Greedo. And not base TCW Greedo. So therefore:

Flash of Competence Greedo > Basic Sentient Competence >>> ANH Greedo >~ TCW Greedo

So there goes the idea of Greedo's parity or supremacy with Gorm.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Note that Gorm wears fully armour, is stated to be one of the galaxy’s deadliest bounty hunters, and most importantly, has come up against Mace Windu and survived:
It was a younger Windu anyway. Plus the Fact File quote you sent implies Gorm is Windu's inferior. It says:

Despite encountering Mace Windu, who was involved in the conflict in a policing capacity, Gorm managed to escape...

-Fact File 116

But that's all moot. Because even if Gorm scales to Windu, Greedo does not scale ot Gorm.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Which discredits the following chain of yours: TCW Greedo <<<< Jango Fett < AOTC Hero of Coruscant < ROTS Hero of Coruscant, since you know who killed Jango Fett?
Cheth. How could you disrespect Jango, the man who trained the Legendary BOBA FETT like this?  : (


Nute_Chethray wrote:Note also that even if Greedo was as fodder as you assumed he is, Greedo still would have been an added at least temporary distraction, and once HoC is downed by Malacia anyways Greedo could have so bad aim he hits one of every hundred shots and still have enough time to kill HoC.
Greedo is more likely to shoot himself on accident than be anything other than a non factor to the Hero. And as for Malacia, I've suitably addressed that.

In fact, I think Greedo would be more detrimental to his team. But that's besides the point.


Greedo Diss Track:



Now that I'm done with all that, allow me to write a mini disrespect thread on Greedo:


GREEDO Diss Track:


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) DEATH_OF_GREEDO


Conclusions:



-HoC's scaling, even if we lowball it to the absolute possible extremes, would still put him close enough to the likes of Yoda and Palpatine to scale far above Oppo.
-As impressive as Malacia is, it is not hax enough to make up for the massive gap between the Hero and Master Rancisis. And HoC no doubt knows Malacia exists so he'll know to look out for mental attacks.
-On the above note, any advantage Rancisis might have isn't hax enough. Neither his extra limbs nor his tail.
-HoC not being able to use certain attacks until later stages in his career doesn't mean he can't defend against them.
-Greedo dies. Potentially to himself given his incompetence.


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Image1


The stage is yours once again, Cheth. Best of luck PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1019854026
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

April 7th 2022, 11:24 am
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POWER counter, proving yourself one of the best of the new generation of debaters once again PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 3344068304

Can't wait to debunk it though PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 2960029119
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Part 1: Counters

August 8th 2022, 1:26 pm
In this post I intend to start with pure counters, although some parts will not be replied to as they will be discussed in the second part. Enjoy the read!

RNG wrote:While this is all impressive, it doesn't really amount to much within a 1v1 (2v1 in our case) deathmatch. It does speak highly for Rancisis that he's the one trusted to judge Vos, but it's all moot point at the end of the day as it doesn't have much bearing on combative ability. Clout within the order only gets you so far.

So you would not say that the highest-ranking member of the Order is the strongest (Yoda)? Note: you specifically provided supremacy quotes for him. And you would not put the second-highest-ranking member of the order second (Mace)? While you might pull the ROTS Anakin card, that would contradict your earlier Yoda supremacy quotes, an I’d have to point out that the Chosen One is a clear exception. Clout in the order comes from understanding and knowledge of the force, both of which are applicable to combat, as it improves their ability to wield or counter it.

RNG wrote:We wouldn't place the likes of Tionne or Kenth Hamner highly just because they have important positions within the order. Would we?


False equivalency. Luke’s order is entirely different from the Clone Wars jedi order. What's especially amusing is that you bring up Tionne as a counter, when less than a month ago, you specifically said:

RNG wrote:Even with that aside, Tionne does not represent the baseline for power or skill for the rank of Master. She was a special case. Sure, she isn't strong with the Force. But her teaching abilities surpass even that of Luke's. Hell, she took over the administration of the Academy along with Kam from Luke. So she has a certain type of talent to warrant a high rank.

Tionne is a “special case”, who was promoted to a high rank specifically because “her teaching abilities surpass even that of Luke’s”. And while you might claim your opinion has since changed, you also provided evidence for it:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And that is not an opinion you can change your mind on later now is it ;). Its official evidence.

RNG wrote:In terms of authority to make decisions, sure. Hell, I'm okay with granting that this extends to power level supremacy over Tiin too. Though it's not that important, as I'll get into soon.

Seniority in the order is not something that restricts itself to certain events. Yoda and Mace aren’t lesser in seniority than other jedi masters when it comes to specific events, even if another might be better suited to decide there (they can at most, give them permission to make decisions or be more likely to listen to them). Oppo is a senior member above Tiin, not just when it comes to a trial.

RNG wrote:I won't say Mace chooses to spar with Tiin because it'd be an easy win for him but......

Based of you to bring up the game in which Plo Koon beats Yoda in a spar! Guess that means that either Yoda’s supremacy quotes means nothing (so Oppo is free of them) or that beating Yoda in a spar is not indicative of supremacy over him, as you claim that HoC’s duel with him is!

The Clone Wars - Lightsaber Duels wrote:"I heard you're one of the only jedi to have ever beaten Yoda in a spar"

Note that this is meaningless lowball anyways, as we have directly seen Tiin match Mace in dueling:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

RNG wrote:Damn..... the Kcaj disrespect on display here :_(

Not disrespect, just massively sub Oppo ;)

RNG wrote:Jokes aside, this is cool and all but all it does is raise Kenobi. Doesn't really raise Oppo. And as I said earlier, it's more a matter of Rancisis having clout than actual power levels or combative effectiveness.

Well… I am surprised you are arguing that ROTS Kenobi being compared to Oppo raises Kenobi. So you hold Oppo > or = ROTS Kenobi; someone who unlike HoC beat MFV (more on that later). I agree with Oppo > Kenobi though, and since we both do concession accepted PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1019854026

As for clout, look at my former point.

RNG wrote:My intent was moreso to say that Malacia is meant to stop confrontations before they happen.

So exactly like the threat of a lightsaber. As my previous quote said: “the best blades are kept in their sheats”. Any combative ability of jedi is first and foremost means of keeping the peace, not of causing conflict. This however in no way, shape or form implies they aren’t combat-applicable, thats conjecture.

RNG wrote:And I don't see it being used to great effectiveness within lightsaber duels.

You being blind is none of my concern. You have to prove why it can’t be used in lightsaber duels. And so far you have provided no evidence.

RNG wrote:The use of "opponents" and "powerful defense" doesn't really preclude the notion of it being used to end fights before they start.
Something I can’t help but noting is that, while this is a huge reach from yourself, what prevents Oppo from using it to end this fight before it starts as well? If he uses malacia instantly and it downs HoC before he can even draw his saber, that still would be a perfectly legitimate win.

RNG wrote: Though even then, I'm more than happy to grant that it can be used combatively.

With this I already want to make note we should dismiss every time RNG said its not combat-applicable, as he has now admitted it is. Its also outright stated in the Encyclopedia, which is something you apparently didn’t reply to, probably since you didn’t want to have to say “I concede the point” PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1019854026

RNG wrote:Against non force users. Since they're the only ones it's documented as being used against.

Except for Sidious killing himself with it in DE, Force Storms were only ever used against nonforceusers. If we excluded Sidious killing himself, would you say its fair to argue that if Sidious sent a force storm on a jedi padawan, the storm would harmlessly glide over the padawan’s force defence? When Naga Sadow caused solar flares to destroy the ships chasing him, he only hit nonforceusers. Would you say that with a force shield, any jedi could easily block solar flares hitting them directly?

Here’s the thing: Jedi are not superheroes with superpowers. They’re regular humans (except for the alien ones) who can call upon space-magic. Which means that any forcepower that can affect a nonforceuser, can affect a forceuser. Now forceusers can use their own abilities to counter those abilities that get used at them, but its not immunity, and its not some kind of a video game where “HoC casts force shield; he’s immune to the force”. First of, a force shield is a conscious effort: HoC uses a force shield? Then he’s drawing focus and power on protecting himself. Focus and power that gets drained from his own offensive.

Second; a force shield does not just outright make you immune to the force abilities of another. Dooku for example explains there’s ways to circumvent jedi training:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 5168012-2897684007-21511

And a forcepower such as Malacia, one that is esoteric, and which functions by turning an opponent’s equilibrium, their own strength and calm, against themselves, sounds like a perfect anti-jedi ability.

RNG wrote:Yeah. it's "difficult" to use against non force users. Just imagine how much harder it'd be to use it against a force user within a fast paced lightsaber duel.

This is blatantly providing misinformation. The quote never mentioned nonforceusers. Its a “difficult discipline”, which just means that its harder to learn, which is why many prefered to use other powers. This does however not mean that somehow the ability takes greater effort to perform, and nowhere does it say its difficult in the context of fighting opponents.

And the argument that its harder to use against a forceuser: that applies to everything. Its more difficult to use a force push against someone who can also force push. Its more difficult to use a lightsaber against someone with a lightsaber. Its more difficult to use a blaster on a forceuser than a nonforceuser. But none of this prevents it being capable of being used against them. And malachia, an ability specifically intended to use the strength and equilibrium of their opponent and turn it against them, sounds like an ability that specifically would be more useful the tougher the opposition.

RNG wrote:That will not be a problem for the Hero as his potent barrier can just sense the ability and block it.

Lots of assumptions here alone. Proof that he has a particularily potent barrier? Proof that he has sufficient force sense to sense the ability being used? Proof that he has either ability? In the game (the only source to ever include HoC), he only has force push, force heal and lightsaber throw. Not force barrier or force sense. You also can’t say “game mechanics”, as you were the first to argue for it being a proper demonstration of his abilities:

RNG wrote:We already know he defeated TPM Maul extremely early on in his career. But did you know that he did so before he even knew how to use TK combatively?

So would like to see sources for his “potent barrier”, how he can just “sense” Malachia, of how he can “block it” with seemingly no effort, and of how he has any of these abilities.

RNG wrote:Malacia, while an extremely potent ability, isn't nearly that tier of hax.

Proof that it isn’t? In the quotes I’ve posted its called “A powerful defense”, it induces “powerful dizziness and nausea”, a “potent martial art”, and is “powerful when employed properly”. Everything suggests its an extremely powerful ability (you yourself said its “an extremely potent ability”), yet you just dismiss it by saying its not that tier of hax. Where’s your proof? Where’s the argument? You just try to dismiss Malachia but never give evidence for why its not a strong ability.

RNG wrote:Otherwise, Jedi wouldn't resort to simple mind tricks and force pushes when an ability that can insta-ragdoll force users exists.

So you’re going to specifically ignore the explicit reason for why other abilities are favoured? Malachia is as you said (but in an entirely wrong context), “difficult” to learn, and most jedi in the prequel era have no need for powerful techniques that takes a lot of investment when they are most likely never facing other forceusers. Even during the clone wars, they fought mostly armies of droids. They aren’t expecting to duel Dooku or Sidious 1v1. They resort to mind tricks and pushes because its “easier” to learn.

RNG wrote:Plo Koon has the ability to use it. Yet never does so in any of his fights against force users. You could argue that it's because he isn't as good with it as Oppo and while that's fair, it'd still have come in handy in some of his fights.

This point debunks itself. Koon has the ability to use it but doesn’t against ventress > its because he isn’t as good with it as Oppo. You even say that its a fair argument. So there’s your explanation. But even if we disregarded the fact that you instantly debunked your own argument, the argument is flawed: Plo Koon at the time is injured, and Ventress is ambushing him. In this fight HoC won’t be allowed to ambush Oppo from the get-go.
RNG wrote:The point stands. Malacia doesn't just ignore force barriers

You have no argument. Your arguments are the following:
Its not combat-applicable -> you admitted its combat applicable, and sources explicitly say that.

Its only been used on nonforceusers -> doesn’t prevent it from being used on forceusers.

Its “difficult” -> quote put in a blatantly false context

People use mind tricks and force pushes -> some people have force storms yet others still use force pushes; better techniques are harder to learn.

Plo Koon has it! -> you said he doesn’t use it because he’s worse than Oppo with it. And he even had circumstances hindering him.

RNG wrote:So I'll relent on my original point regarding the potential application of Malacia in Rancisis' final fight.

Concession accepted.

RNG wrote:Given that HoC should vastly outstrip Oppo in speed.

Proof for HoC even having force speed or force augmentation? To my knowledge, and according to the evidence thus far provided in the thread, he only has force push, force heal and lightsaber throw.

And then I would like proof for HoC being “vastly” faster than Oppo.

RNG wrote: So he can simply just get out of Master Rancisis' line of sight. (And likely blitz him)

So what you’re suggesting is a gap big enough that HoC than draw on the force, run around Rancisis, and stab him in the back, all before he can even react. Would like to see evidence for such a gap in speed and power. And I would like to make note that even AOTC Dooku couldn’t react quickly enough to save himself from Coleman Trebor.

RNG wrote:I'm not sure I get what you mean. The impasse in question was regarding Tholme's search for answers in his investigation. Not a martial arts contest. You could imply they're close in combative ability because that master taught Tholme for a time but even that's rather suspect.

Actually the impasse in question was regarding their ability to influence the other with their respective abilities, as thats what he says in the literal sentence before. Furthermore, Tholme claims that Dooku is only more skilled than one of the master’s students in some ways, and the master easily reacted to and dodged a sudden attack from Tholme:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) YJfh_Uo-akTHkdckQLz7eMVE9vHwFvuAOLvx0nyl83rs1rJ4_H0lim5tYlHRiVxgdyEI1-op2Ngns1600

RNG wrote:Bit of a stretch. Vos was trying to pump her for info. Not kill her. We know that tends to extend fights longer than they need to be.
RNG wrote:And even if I were to grant that she's close to him and could press him in a conventional melee, who cares? Because as we see in the very next panel, the second he decides to use the force, he insta ragdolls her.

You say that circumstances cause Vos to hold back, but fail to acknowledge that she does the same. She is intentionally giving him false information and making him believe Sora Bulq is Dooku’s master:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 5KPiW30juOovmuSpq6V6giS9UBKYRcTnNiDBDPl19P8y5TYO6mMEvjNFuwnF_SewaB6sLGLPxV0Xs1600

RNG wrote:Plus, looking at the entire fight, it's clear she can't even take him combatively. Why else would she run away to change the playing field to something more advantageous?

Because she’s an agile fighter and an assassin who prefers to be mobile? Would you claim that Sidious is massively sub Yoda since he fled to the senate halls rather than his office? How about Maul vs the TPM duo? They constantly moved. None of this changes the fact that she managed to shut down his lightsaber by striking the hilt with her claws, and hitting him repeatedly, forcing him to rely on the force.

And the reason it matters even if he can use the force on her to win, is because Oppo is against an entire army of masters even greater than her, surrounding him from all sides and attacking at once while he has multiple circumstances hindering him, limiting his ability to wield the force. And even then he destroyed them.

RNG wrote:1: Not being scared doesn't mean anything.

It means that Bulq believes he has a chance of beating or matching him. The latter which he did.

RNG wrote:2: Windu and Bulq used to be sparring partners. They developed Vaapad together. The fact that they fought relatively evenly in sabers is more a testament to Bulq being familiar with Windu's moves. And while generally, the same could be true in reverse (Windu knowing all of Bulq's moves), it's clear that Bulq's style and moves have changed. It's implied by him saying "I have perfected it. I have harnessed all that is inherent in it."

So since Bulq has fully perfected vaapad he’s fighting differently than Mace? That implies Mace has not fully mastered it. Which means Bulq is a greater duelist than Mace, even pre-dooku training, and yet still is inferior to massively weakened Oppo.

RNG wrote:If Bulq was anywhere near Windu overall, Palpatine would just have him killed. We see how he felt about Ventress when she grew too powerful. It's safe to assume that Bulq was a good distance from that threshold.

You’re using content made long after Bulq’s story made by an entirely different creator to limit him, which just doesn’t work. As of Republic, there had been no incidents where Sidious killed acolytes for growing too powerful. And even if this argument did work, there was nothing Sidious could do about it. Bulq was in a fully fortified and unbreachable base, surrounded by forces loyal to him, and besieged by an army of clones and jedi. Neither Dooku nor Sidious could get to him at the time even if they wanted to, and at the time Bulq was massively important to their plans.

RNG wrote:The point is, there is no reason to treat Bulq's taunting of Tholme here as anything more than a taunt. At worst, it's him trying to scare Tholme. At best, it's a case of an overinflated ego.

In fact, lets look at it another way, if Bulq was able to actually fight on par with Windu, he wouldn't have needed to create the diversion. Given that Windu is Rancisis' superior. And given that Rancisis was exhausted. Point is, Sora is trash compared to any of the best masters (HoC, Windu, Rancisis, etc)

Bulq in his last confrontation with Windu matched him in pure dueling. Then he faced darkside growth and training under Dooku. How then, could he be trash compared to Windu when he’s grown better than he was before? Even if you claim that they knew each other’s moves, that shouldn’t have mattered in their last fight if Windu is around the level for you to think he could blitz Oppo. He should have disarmed Bulq before he could even ignite his lightsabers.

This is also an attempt to make a point that gets proven by the point itself. I provide sources saying Bulq is comparable to Mace/possibly even superior, and then for how Bulq won’t face Oppo directly even while drastically weakened. And then you dismiss them saying “But Mace is >>>> Oppo and Oppo is > Bulq”. But my sources would debunk that claim, and its up to you to find a way to counter them that isn’t just “but they’re wrong”.

RNG wrote:He was only taught one move.

No. He was taught Yoda and Anakin’s “signature moves”:

RNG wrote:He's learned the signature moves of some of the Jedi order's finest.

And signature moves are, like the term implies, something that is inherently characteristic to their fighting style:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Its also funny that you say “he only knows one move from each” when its convenient, but when you argue for HoC’s fighting style you say he can switch between multiple styles with ease:

RNG wrote:Chuck Norris tells us that changing up styles or moves can throw enemies off balance. HoC can do that with ease.

But you just said that he doesn’t know any different styles! He only knows 5 signature moves, thats the extent of his lightsaber knowledge. And note that unlike what you would have us believe, Chuck Norris doesn’t mention anything about moves, he specifically says its switching styles that throws enemies off balance:

Chuck Norris wrote:“As you train you’ll learn additional fighting styles, changing styles during combat can surprise your opponent allowing you to get the upper hand.”

Moves are never mentioned. So you have to make a decision here: Does HoC know five different styles and it gives him an advantage, or does he only know five signature moves, all from jedi Oppo knows.

RNG wrote:His wins aren't bogged down by that since in most cases, the opponents whose moves he's learned use other techniques that isn't taught to the Hero.

Only Yoda used a technique that wasn’t taught to the Hero in their spars as far as the evidence you’ve provided shows. And that was a force technique that could be blocked on HoC’s saber.

RNG wrote:And he won those spars fair and square.

Just like how Plo Koon beat Yoda fair and square.

RNG wrote:The Hero had zero knowledge on the fighting styles of Maul, Dooku, Grievous, or Palpatine.

Yet he had knowledge of Jinn’s, someone who matched Maul. He had of Kenobi, who beat Grievous. He had of Yoda, who matched Sidious.

RNG wrote:To address your point regarding Oppo witnessing the training of some of HoC's opponents, sure. He may have witnessed their training. But did he have experience with or an understanding of their signature moves? I think not.

You don’t think that Oppo has ever experienced the signature moves of these jedi, aka the moves most characteristic to their style? Aka the ones they would use the most of any moves? If anything, these are the parts of their fighting styles he knows the best.

RNG wrote: And even if he did, the number of moves HoC has at his disposal will be hard for Oppo to deal with.

HoC knows five ways to move in total. Five. Comparatively, even the basic training of regular jedi have moves for each of the six zones of attack/parry, and there’s six of them:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Meaning basic initiates have more variety than HoC. That means that Oppo will easily be able to deal with the amount of moves HoC performs, and it means Oppo can switch between far more moves than HoC… and this is just Oppo’s pre-form I training…

RNG wrote:Very clever of you to turn my wank into anti-wank, Cheth. Unfortunately, it won't do Rancisis much good.


But why not? Judging by the fact you did not attempt to counter my point in any meaningful manner, I will take it as you conceding that HoC has lesser force knowledge than an initiate while being a padawan. Since you went on to not try to counter HoC not even knowing you can throw a lightsaber with the force as a full on jedi master, that means you also concede his force knowledge still is ridiculously at his prime. Yet you then expect us to believe: 1. He has force shield and force sense (neither one an ability he has learned or used at any point). 2. He can sense Oppo’s intentions instantly. 3. He can block an esoteric ability that only Koon and Rancisis can use at all, and only Oppo has mastered?

Simply saying “it won’t do Rancisis much good” should not be acknowledged as a counter argument in any form if it demonstrates his full ineptitude in wielding the force. You arguing HoC has force shield, force speed, force augmentation, and force sense without sources proving it is in on itself then something I could handwave, but it gets even more ridiculous when you then argue:

RNG wrote:On the contrary, you've done a beautiful job of establishing Master Rancisis' clout within the order. He's a very prominent figure. And as we see in several IU sources, he wasn't secretive about Malacia. So despite not knowing how to use it, our Hero is doubtless very well aware that it exists and that Oppo can use it. Meaning he'll know what to look out for. Meaning either:

A: He'll put up his mental force barrier.
B: He'll get out of the line of sight of Oppo, and then proceed to speedblitz him.

As a full padawan going on solo missions HoC doesn’t know how to use telekinesis. As a full master he doesn’t know you can throw a lightsaber. But he does know the functions of, and counters of, an esoteric ability you’ve repeatedly talked about as “difficult”. You yourself have argued that most jedi ignore Malachia in favour of force push (one of the three abilities HoC in his lifetime has taken the effort to learn). But now you expect us to believe he has extensive knowledge of Malachia?

RNG wrote:It's doubtful Zannah could use her Sith Sorcery TP on someone like Anakin. Sure, hax are a thing but in this case, it won't win Rancisis the fight.

False equivalency. 1. The functions of sith sorcery and malachia are different. 2. Anakin, unlike HoC, has extensive knowledge of the force. 3. Anakin has faced sith sorcery at the hands of Dooku and others before. 4. You have made no case why her sith sorcery couldn’t possibly function on Anakin.

RNG wrote:This is not an anti feat. This means HoC can win without needing to use hax. A further testament to his power and more legitimacy to my scaling chains.

Its an anti-feat in the context its being used: Its an anti-feat that shows that HoC is likely the least knowledgeable and masterful force practitioner we have encountered in the history of SW, and that even to learn 3 abilities he has to spend his entire career as a jedi.

RNG wrote:That was not my intent. Allow me to correct myself. My intent was Jedi Dooku > everyone else. Not necessarily Yoda. Him being "considered on equal terms with Mace Windu and Yoda" means that they're the big three of the order. We don't quite know the gaps between the big three but we do know that they're the best of the best.

But allow me to present more evidence for Jedi Dooku>Everyone else:

And then you proceed to post two quotes that say Dooku is arguably the best swordsman of the order as of TPM, and two which directly compare his combative ability to Yoda’s by having both beat Windu. Your argument of TPM Dooku ~ Yoda stands!

RNG wrote:Ignoring my clarification above, your point here assumes that Yoda doesn't grow massively after TPM. Which is puzzling since he's strong in the Force. Why wouldn't he grow?
Because he is already old even for his own species, and has had centuries to reach his full potential. Not to mention that during most of his late life until the clone wars, he’s barely even used his lightsaber:

Fact Files wrote:The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.

Infact most hadn’t seen his lightsaber for years:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Not to mention that its on you to prove that Yoda has grown. Since it is you making said claim.

RNG wrote:If a feat outright contradicts a quote, I see no reason to favor the quote more.

However if one has a quote of supremacy (Yoda) which you yourself use to put him above all jedi (which includes HoC), and the only comparison putting HoC > Yoda is a training duel (which Plo Koon also has bested Yoda in), then I see no reason not to still favour the quote. As there is no contradiction in HoC beating a holding back Yoda training a jedi knight. Especially when even Plo has beaten Yoda as well. And you hold Plo massively bellow Mace:

RNG wrote:You can point to them being sparring partners as a sign of parity but the problem with that is that Windu was also partners with Tiin. And we all know how massive the gap between them is. Same for Koon.

So either you hold Mace > Plo/HoC > Yoda, or you must admit that a training spar is not enough to indicate superiority.

And ultimately, the issue with your argument here is: You provide quotes saying Yoda is the greatest jedi, and then you say “but he isn’t, since HoC is better”. So what you’re saying is that the quote is wrong. That invalidates the quote, and leaves it completely open for other exceptions. HoC beat Yoda in a spar and therefore is > him? Then Plo Koon is too. And then the quote doesn’t matter anymore, and HoC can no longer hide from Rancisis behind the supremacy quotes of other characters.

And once those are gone, its clear that HoC has no ability of his own, with the blade or the force, that will render him capable of fighting THE MASTER OF MALACHIA

RNG wrote:But no evidence is provided for the >>> gap between Yoda and Oppo.
Why would the gap between Yoda and Rancisis not be massive? We know that Yoda and Windu are above him. And given that Windu needed the superconducting loop amp to challenge Palps and Yoda didn't... well. Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis.

Mace needs an amp to challenge Sidious and Yoda doesn’t, so therefore Yoda is >>> Mace? Where does this massive gap come from? Why is it not Yoda > Mace. Why, it might even be Yoda ~ Mace, with Mace needing the amp just to bridge a miniscule gap between him and Yoda. Prove your gaps or stop making them so massive out of nowhere with no argument or sources backing it up.

You are however correct: while Mace has supremacy quotes over Rancisis, the gap between them is unknown. So the gap may once more be: Mace ~ Rancisis. So its just as likely that: Yoda ~ Mace ~ Rancisis as anything else. Its also massively more likely than having immense gaps between Yoda and Mace.

Furthermore, one of the quotes you validate to show Yoda > Mace says that Mace is the second-greatest jedi. Which once again binds HoC. So if Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis is true, then Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)> HoC must also be true. The second quote you provided for Yoda > Mace, also has Palpatine/Sidious saying Mace is a greater warrior than Yoda, and Yoda just the better teacher, so it contradicts itself, with Sidious’s opinion (which is more neutral) and Mace’s (who’s biased towards his former teacher).

RNG wrote:My saying "Yoda >>> Oppo" was a generous estimate for Rancisis.

Yet all your sources make Yoda ~ Mace ~ Rancisis just as possible.

RNG wrote:Sure, supremacy quotes may be binding to HoC.

Concession accepted.

RNG wrote:But at the end of the day, he is fighting on par with and defeating Rancisis' superiors.

*the superiors of Rancisis and HoC himself. Which means there’s nothing preventing Rancisis from doing the same.

RNG wrote:Feats should outstrip quotes.

Only if you’re willing to toss the quotes. And only if the feats actually show what you want them to. And if feats are so good, when will you be willing to show any feats of HoC being capable of blocking Malachia?

RNG wrote:But even if we are to grant that HoC is sub Yoda and Palpatine: Realistically, it has to be by a razor thin margin.

Then, if they are subject to the same quotes, what prevents Rancisis from having the same gap as HoC from Yoda and Palpatine?

RNG wrote:Oppo simply does not have such comparisons.

Being superior to Sora Bulq, who says he’s superior to Mace, despite Oppo being at his weakest, would be one of many such comparisons. You’re currently using Yoda and Mace supremacy to limit Oppo and Bulq. Once you claim that they’re not supreme, then the Oppo-bulq-mace comparison has no counter.

Would like to ask you to choose. Are Yoda and Mace supreme, and both Oppo and HoC their inferiors? Or can both freely be put above them, and therefore your only point of argument for HoC supremacy is moot?

RNG wrote:He's consistently written as an inferior to the people HoC is beating.

The ONLY sources saying Rancisis is inferior to them are the ones that also says HoC is inferior to them.

RNG wrote:The worst case scenario for my chains are: HoC<~Yoda>>Oppo.

Nope. The worst case scenario for you is either that HoC and Oppo are both sub Mace, or that both are free to scale above Yoda. Those are also the best case scenarios. Since those are the only two scenarios.

RNG wrote:I'll relent on my point here

Concession accepted PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1019854026

RNG wrote:Would Oppo press Dooku enough that he jumps back to let droids fire? Doubtful.

Considering HoC fought Dooku after he had just fought Kenobi, Anakin and Yoda, and was completely exhausted after the first two, I would wager that anyone could.

RNG wrote:Regarding the tail, unlike the Anzati, HoC has a lightsaber. I'm sure that if Oppo goes for a tail whip, HoC can just relieve Master Rancisis of his tail. Gg.

They had swords, which could also cut his tail. They had alot more swords than HoC had lightsabers infact.

RNG wrote:Though, it's funny you should mention 4 arms, since our Hero can counter Grievous' onslaught. Sure he's not attacking with all arms at once in this clip.

Point counters itself. Rancisis can attack with four arms and his tail at once, Grievous used one at a time.

RNG wrote:But given Grievous' speed, might as well be.

Yet to provide any sources for Grievous’s speed, why its superior to that of Oppo, and why he strikes with a single weapon faster than Rancisis does with all five limbs at once. Infact when using all four sabers at once, grievous struck 20 times a second. Thats 5 strikes with each per second. Which is not alot at all considering you think jedi can speed-blitz even other jedi masters. To fight off a whole squad of anzati masters attacking him at once, Oppo must have reacted to more strikes than that at once.

RNG wrote:Plus, it's not like Rancisis' extra arms will come into play in non bladelock situations. So the advantage is moot. He'll only be able to use 2-3 arms since 1-2 will be used to hold his saber. Like what's he even gonna do? Throw a punch? That's useless outside of bladelocks.

You say this, yet Maul repeatedly kicked Obi-wan and Jinn. Anakin and Obi-wan had a wrestling match. Anakin physically grabbed Dooku’s arms in ROTS. Etc.

And with that, we’re at the end of debunking the feeble arguments provided for HoC and against Rancisis. Greedo remains, but he will be addressed later in my post. Now is the time for the true potency of OPPO RANCISIS
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty THE CUNNING OF A GENERAL

August 8th 2022, 1:47 pm
MASTER OF BATTLE MEDITATION


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1103718-opporancisis_egtf

Anyone who knows of Oppo Rancisis knows that Malacia is not his sole signature ability, since as one of the supreme members of the council, he also is a master of BATTLE MEDITATION. Some might find this odd for me to mention, because isn’t battle meditation a power used purely for large battles?

But we know for a fact this isn’t true, as we have seen jedi use it on the spot offensively before. For example we have Nomi Sunrider, at this point not having received any jedi training and never having practiced using the force at all, using it to cause two darkside beasts to attack each other:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 2PNJM_k7qSJHwrpbAmbogYkfGXqfqmu-lOimymEf8dK01Z2AlYoA2DLQI5Uam--lnSyxsnfwlAnJ%3Ds1600?width=592&height=910

On later occasions Nomi has shown the ability to casually use it to make a large amount of krath warriors fight each other:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

These warriors are noted to be powerful in the force, and to fight using it:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

It even seems implied that she actually has to use battle meditation combatively to defeat them, and that without it they could actually kill her. This would imply that for users of battle meditation it might even be a greater weapon combatively than regular fighting.

Also works on more powerful forceusers, as evidenced by Nomi incapitating Aleema Keto with battle meditation (note, its confirmed that Nomi is using battle meditation to do this):

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Then we also have the completely untrained Joruus C’baoth who can use battle meditation to completely control 37.000 crew members:

Dark Force Rising wrote:“You lie!” C’baoth cut him off, jabbing an accusing finger at him. “You always lie to me. But no more. No more. I command the Empire, and all its forces.”

He raised his hands above his head, an eerie blue-white coronal sheen playing about them. Pellaeon cringed despite himself, remembering the lightning bolts C’baoth had thrown at them in the crypt on Wayland. But no lightning came. C’baoth simply stood there, his hands clutching at empty air, his eyes gazing toward infinity. Pellaeon frowned at him … and he was just considering asking C’baoth what he was talking about when he happened to glance down into the portside crew pit.

The crewers were sitting stiffly in their chairs, their backs parade-ground straight, their hands folded in their laps, their eyes staring blankly through their consoles. Behind them, the officers were equally stiff, equally motionless, equally oblivious. The starboard crew pit was the same as was the aft bridge. And on the consoles Pellaeon could see, which should have been active with incoming reports from other sectors of the ship, the displays had all gone static.

It was a moment Pellaeon had expected and dreaded since that first visit to Wayland. C’baoth had taken command of the Chimaera.

And cause Mara Jade (a forceuser) to fall asleep before she even is on the same planet as him:

Dark Force Rising wrote:Clenching her teeth, she made the switchcover and then gave the scan map a quick look. She'd only been out of it for a minute or two but at the speed the Skipray was doing even a few seconds of the inattention could be fatal. She dug her knuckles hard into her eyes, fighting against the fatigue pulling at her and feeling the sweat breaking out again on her forehead. Flying while half asleep, her old instructor had often warned her, was the quickest if messiest way to end your life. And if she had gone down there would have been no one to blame but herself.

Or would she?

She leveled the ship off, confirmed that there were no mountains in her path, and keyed in the autopilot. The ysalamir and portable nutrient framework that Aves had given her were back near the aft hatchway, secured to the engine access panel. Unstrapping from her seat, Mara made her way back toward it -- It was as if someone had snapped on a light switch. One second she felt as if she had snapped on a light switch. One second she felt as if she had just finished a four-day battle; half a step later, a meter or so from the ysalamir, the fatigue abruptly vanished. She smiled grimly to herself. So her suspicion had been correct: Thrawn's mad Jedi Master didn't want any company. "Nice try," she called into the air.
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 5647776-mara%2Btired

You could try to argue that this Nomi and Joruus are doing something Rancisis isn’t capable of, but frankly that would be utterly insensible. Nomi’s first feat is performed by a Nomi with no training whatsoever, and the latter two as a simple knight who is still learning how to use battle meditation. Oppo Rancisis is a jedi high council master who’s been using it for hundreds of years. Comparatively, Joruus’s power is the same as that of Jorus, but with less training and knowledge, who in turn was a mere jedi master:

Fact Files wrote:The tests on the cloned C'baoth were ultimately disappointing. The new version had all the powers of the original, but the speed with which he had been created had caused various fundamental faults.

If this is not enough to convince you of Rancisis’s superiority, note also that he has performed a feat vastly beyond the reach of any other Battle Meditation user, as he used it on the clone wars in its entirety, only prevented from doing so fully due to the darkside actively clouding him:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

However the use of battle meditation is not purely damaging in nature. Rancisis also used it to “visualize victory” and to guide where to strike:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) M4sLr_ccGQ1NBTNU0nzEzYYTq5eU4QshmVAVMp9TFeuwmIK-PLMFwYg4Teu02aZlyo3sB6nMTeZ9s1600

Lets talk about visualization first. You might argue that its simply an idea of a possible future. Its not. According to Quinlan Vos, it is “as real [...] as if he had lived it.”. He sees a possible future, and he makes it happen.

Now you might question how this helps him. But honestly that should be clear. In every battle, to every event, there are probably millions of different ways for it to unfold. Doesn’t even have to be combative, by simply going on a walk countless events could unfurl. Even if one looks at a duel between Yoda vs Jinn there are many different possibilities for how it goes. We both think Yoda is much stronger, and if they dueled infinite times Yoda would beat him almost every time. But its only an almost. Since like I said earlier, forceusers aren’t gods among men. They make mistakes, and if they do they can be punished like anyone else. Even Luke Skywalker is not invincible:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And as we can see this is evidenced by his inferior in Desann ragdolling him and actually defeating him in their duel:



Now as you know, I am already arguing that Oppo is HoC’s superior, in power, skill and due to Malachia. But even if they were comparable, or if somehow someone could possibly imagine that HoC is superior, or even if you think that HoC could casually stomp Rancisis, do we truly think that the gap is such that its impossible for Oppo to win? Impossible for HoC to trip and stab himself with his lightsaber like a true Maul? Impossible for HoC to have a lapse in concentration or slightly overreach? To slip up his guard for just one moment? To underestimate or not notice Greedo and get shot in the back while dueling Oppo? To focus on Greedo and not notice Oppo using Malachia? If you do believe HoC is massively superior to any jedi in the history of SW, and is truly invulnerable to any and all possibilities, then of course HoC wins this debate, even if I scaled Oppo above Grandmaster Luke or DE Sidious it would not matter then. If you however think that HoC isn’t immortal, then there are ways for Oppo to win. And with battle meditation, especially with the darkside no longer clouding him, he could visualize those ways, and then enforce them. And with that, victory already belongs to Jedi Master Oppo Rancisis, Master of Battle Meditation, before HoC can even draw his blade.

Furthermore, battle meditation allows him to guide his own blade, or entire armies, in ways that ensure victory. I have already addressed how it benefits him, but we must not forget: This is a 2v1.

FLASH OF COMPETENCE



Having come to my main post, and thus having to make my full case, its important to address how Greedo affects the matchup. Previously I made the argument that Greedo scales above Mace, but a meme case is not a winning case in the long run, as fun as it was to make it in my opener. But that does not mean that 1. Greedo is useless to this matchup. Nor 2. That my opening case was a waste of time. Since it is what brought forth this:

RNG wrote:Flash of Competence Greedo > Basic Sentient Competence >>> ANH Greedo >~ TCW Greedo

You have argued that regular Greedo is below the competence of a basic sentient being. And whether that is true or not is completely irrelevant to my actual argument. What is relevant, is that you on your own volition wrote “Flash of Competence Greedo > Basic Sentient Competence”. Which means that you hold Flash of competence Greedo above the average sentient beings. Now just how good is Flash of Competence Greedo?

Greedo destroyed Gorm with a headshot. A single shot. This is extremely impressive, since Gorm is described as invincible, and a fortress:

Secrets of the Jedi wrote:He pressed forward. Gorm's disadvantage was his belief in his own invincibility. He thought he was a fortress. He thought he was unbeatable.

However more importantly, Gorm previously had tanked a lightsaber stroke to his head in a duel with Qui-Gon Jinn:

Secrets of the Jedi wrote:Gorm's plated armor was formidable, but he hadn't yet met a lightsaber. Qui-Gon moved to one side. Gorm followed. He raised his arm to come down on Qui-Gon, believing, no doubt, that he would be faster and stronger. Qui-Gon ducked so that he received only a glancing blow. It was enough to turn his knees to water, but he'd expected that, planned for it. With an upward thrust, he aimed for Gorm's helmet.

His helmet was where his intelligence was. Where his targeting system spoke to his servomotors, where his motivator powered the blasters built into his hands.

Gorm shook his head. Smoke rose from one side of his helmet.

And then proceeded to take two lightsaber strikes to the head from two opponents at once:

Secrets of the Jedi wrote:He charged at Qui-Gon again. Sensing what Qui-Gon was up to, Adi moved to the other side. Together they delivered simultaneous blows to his helmet.

The helmet melted and fused to Gorm's neck.

And even after that, after his helmet melted and fused to his neck, he was still screaming and trying to fight for a few moments before he was incapitated:

Secrets of the Jedi wrote:For a moment, Gorm looked surprised. Then his eyes turned red with fury. With a scream, he flailed at Qui-Gon and tried to pummel Adi. But the lightsabers had done their work. Signals conflicted. Servomotors malfunctioned. Gorm toppled over.

Qui-Gon bent over him. He was not dead, but he was certainly incapacitated.

Meanwhile with Greedo, a single shot instantly downed Gorm:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

We can hardly argue that a blaster is more powerful than a lightsaber-blade. So with one shot Greedo exceeded the performance of Adi Gallia and Qui-Gon Jinn hitting Gorm with lightsabers thrice despite having an inferior weapon and being further away. In other words, Flash of Competence Greedo is in truth FLASH OF BRILLIANCE GREEDO.

Now how do we make sure this shot-hitting and marksmanship-legend version of Greedo comes to action in this matchup? Simple enough: Battle Meditation. Rancisis can with battle meditation guide Greedo; make the future in which he hits the perfect shot or shots on HoC reality. And suddenly, HoC is facing a dangerous bounty hunter shooting at him while also fighting a jedi high council master with a lightsaber, Malachia, and battle meditation.

Cosmic Irrelevance



Finally, to finish off this post, I want to return RNG’s favour and pointing out all of HoC’s failures and defeats. A major point of your arguments for HoC’s superiority over Rancisis is scaling him above Yoda, Sidious and MFV. I have already explained why the Yoda fight is illegitimate. But what if I told you; HoC lost to Sidious and MFV?

Let us begin with the first fight: vs Sidious. You claimed that HoC beat Sidious, and that this proves he’s at the very least comparable to the titans:

RNG wrote:While the quote above would bind HoC, the fact that he contended, let alone defeated Palpatine would show that at the very least, he has parity with that class. Which is far and above Oppo's tier.

But that is false, since he never did beat Sidious. Sidious won their encounter. Perhaps HoC managed to outduel Sidious, and that is certainly impressive. But Sidious has never been the greatest duelist. His true power lies with other things. And no I do not refer to force lightning, nor to telekinesis or telepathy, or anything like that. His true powers are lies and persuasion. Was it with dueling that Sidious caused the destruction of the jedi? Was it with force lightning that he caused the creation of the empire? No, he is a liar, a manipulator, and that is why he defeated the jedi order:

Revenge of the Sith wrote:There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The thing that makes sith different from mere dark jedi are that they are the most manipulative, most malevolent, of all the followers of the dark side:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

And even in combat, its noted that regular lightsaber combat is judged by skill. Advanced combat by force powers. And the sith win fights by breaking the jedi’s spirit; by lies and manipulation, not by their skill nor their power:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Ultimately, how did their duel end? Did the so-called Hero of Coruscant destroy Sidious and rid the galaxy of the dark side? No. Like Mace Windu and like Yoda, HoC lost his duel before it even began, for with the slightest effort of persuasion on Sidious’s part he left Coruscant to the clutches of the darkside:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) You_ll10
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Mace Windu bested Sidious with their blades, but he had long lost since Sidious had put everything in place for Anakin’s fall. Yoda matched Sidious with the blade and the force, but he had long lost since Sidious had already destroyed the jedi and the republic. The Hero of Coruscant bested Sidious with his blade, but he had long lost, since there was nothing he could do to stop neither him nor Lord Vader.

Now onto MFV. Unlike Sidious he is not yet a manipulator or liar. He is a pure engine of destruction. So why does HoC not scale above him for beating him? Because while HoC beat one version of MFV, he specifically has to do it before MFV unleashes his full power, for at that point his assault becomes unblockable and capable of oneshotting:



Making clear that HoC is in no way comparable to him. It only becomes worse because this is before he destroys the seperatist council and chokes Padme, and truly falls to the darkness. So: the MFV Kenobi fought > the MFV HoC fought > HoC > holding back MFV.

And while these are the most relevant examples, they are not the only ones. HoC beats Maul, but does nothing to stop him from killing Jinn and dooming the jedi. He beats Jango twice, but does nothing to prevent him from leading Kenobi to Kamino or nearly killing Mace. He beats Dooku, but he still escapes with the death star plans and so the clone wars continues. He defeats Grievous, but does not manage to capture or kill him and end the clone wars. Then comes Sidious and MFV, both who’m he fail to do anything against. And even Suit Vader continues unhindered. In Star Wars, every character’s existence is relevant to either the Will of the Force or to the Dark Side, everyone affects events so that the Will of the Force may be done. Oppo has guided many jedi, saved many lives in battles, and even his death led to Vos defeating Sora Bulq. Greedo threatening Han pushed him to help the Rebellion. Everyone matters.

Except the Hero of Coruscant. Remove him from the Star Wars galaxy, and nothing changes. Noone’s life gets different. The sith won’t be hindered. The jedi won’t be helped. Its almost as if he never existed at all…

Conclusion


- Rancisis is the tertiary master of the Order, and that position comes with knowledge and mastery of the force
- Attempted counters to Malachia are all attempts at handwaving without any evidence to back it up. Still no actual case provided for how HoC would counter it.
- Abilities (force speed, shield and sense) are said by RNG to be in the HoC’s possession which he evidently doesn’t have (he only possesses push, heal and lightsaber throw)
- Sora Bulq thinks he is superior to Mace Windu, yet is afraid to fight a massively hindered Oppo stated to be at his “weakest”.
- Any attempts to scale HoC over Yoda, Dooku, Sidious or Mace renders their supremacy quotes wrong and therefore Oppo can also be excluded from them by Bulq. Any attempts to enforce supremacy quotes on Oppo will also enforce them on HoC.
- HoC knows five moves in total, less than an initiate.
- HoC is a neophyte in the force.
- Rancisis can use battle meditation to overwhelm HoC’s mind
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

August 9th 2022, 10:14 pm
ur a fucking menace lol
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Part 3 of the Self Insert's Supremacy

September 4th 2022, 9:07 am
Nute_Chethray wrote:So you would not say that the highest-ranking member of the Order is the strongest (Yoda)? Note: you specifically provided supremacy quotes for him. And you would not put the second-highest-ranking member of the order second (Mace)? While you might pull the ROTS Anakin card, that would contradict your earlier Yoda supremacy quotes, an I’d have to point out that the Chosen One is a clear exception. Clout in the order comes from understanding and knowledge of the force, both of which are applicable to combat, as it improves their ability to wield or counter it.
The supremacy quotes that I used to put Windu, Dooku, and Yoda above Oppo all have saber skill and power levels more or less in mind. What you've provided for Oppo has just clout in mind. Wisdom is great but it's not necessitated to correlate with power levels and overall standings.


Nute_Chethray wrote:False equivalency. Luke’s order is entirely different from the Clone Wars jedi order. What's especially amusing is that you bring up Tionne as a counter, when less than a month ago, you specifically said:
--
Tionne is a “special case”, who was promoted to a high rank specifically because “her teaching abilities surpass even that of Luke’s”. And while you might claim your opinion has since changed, you also provided evidence for it:
You do realize that this strengthens my bottom line, right? Tionne's standing is not necessarily due to her power level. Similarly, Oppo's standing within the order isn't necessitated to be due to power levels. Whereas Windu and Yoda have supremacy quotes for clout and power levels/saber skill.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Based of you to bring up the game in which Plo Koon beats Yoda in a spar! Guess that means that either Yoda’s supremacy quotes means nothing (so Oppo is free of them) or that beating Yoda in a spar is not indicative of supremacy over him, as you claim that HoC’s duel with him is!
The quote in question of Plo allegedly beating Yoda is a mere rumor:

I heard:

I'm sure I don't need to remind you, but here's how Plo + a couple other masters fared against Yoda:

Shadow Hunter:

We don't even know when the alleged spar in which Plo beat Yoda was. (If it happened at all.) So I see no reason to assume the gap between Plo and Yoda is anything other than what Shadow Hunter shows us.

And unless you wanna argue that Yoda without a lightsaber is somehow > Yoda with a lightsaber, it's safer to assume the rumor was just that. A rumor.

Also note the last line in the Shadow Hunter excerpt. Even with all his knowledge (which is said to be better than technique), Yoda still lost to HoC. Our self insert is just that good.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Well… I am surprised you are arguing that ROTS Kenobi being compared to Oppo raises Kenobi. So you hold Oppo > or = ROTS Kenobi; someone who unlike HoC beat MFV (more on that later). I agree with Oppo > Kenobi though, and since we both do concession accepted
Kenobi isn't of consequence to my argument. Plus the iteration of him that beat MFV isn't the same as beginning of ROTS Obi Wan, so it's even more inconsequential. I'll get into the MFV stuff soon since it raises HoC even more than I had originally thought. Stay tuned.


Nute_Chethray wrote:So exactly like the threat of a lightsaber. As my previous quote said: “the best blades are kept in their sheats”. Any combative ability of jedi is first and foremost means of keeping the peace, not of causing conflict. This however in no way, shape or form implies they aren’t combat-applicable, thats conjecture.
--
You being blind is none of my concern. You have to prove why it can’t be used in lightsaber duels. And so far you have provided no evidence.
--
Something I can’t help but noting is that, while this is a huge reach from yourself, what prevents Oppo from using it to end this fight before it starts as well? If he uses malacia instantly and it downs HoC before he can even draw his saber, that still would be a perfectly legitimate win.
Lets look into the mechanics of the ability. As per the most recent source depicting it, we're shown something crucial: Those with a high fortitudes can resist it. (Blue)

Fortitude:

Jedi also have higher fortitudes than the average thugs Malacia is designed to be used against.

Jedi Fortitude:

The crux of my arguments against Malacia is that it's not some one size fits all ability or some no limits fallacy like you're trying to paint it as. Our good ol Hero happens to not only be a Jedi, but one of extremely high rank due to his feats and status as a master, I see no reason to just assume his fortitude won't be enough to resist it.


Nute_Chethray wrote:With this I already want to make note we should dismiss every time RNG said its not combat-applicable, as he has now admitted it is. Its also outright stated in the Encyclopedia, which is something you apparently didn’t reply to, probably since you didn’t want to have to say “I concede the point”
Come on now... don't take my words out of context and ignore my bottom line. It's clear that my intent was only to say it could be effective against non force users. I even bolded the text for you. Force users are an entirely different beast. You'd use different tactics if you were fighting a small child vs if you were fighting Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee.

But anyway: Like I said, the crux of that entire point is that it's not really a factor in a fight with Force users. Since they naturally have higher fortitudes, making it harder to effect them. Remember, Oppo himself suggests it as a perfect tool against small fish:

Rancisis' Description:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Except for Sidious killing himself with it in DE, Force Storms were only ever used against nonforceusers. If we excluded Sidious killing himself, would you say its fair to argue that if Sidious sent a force storm on a jedi padawan, the storm would harmlessly glide over the padawan’s force defence? When Naga Sadow caused solar flares to destroy the ships chasing him, he only hit nonforceusers. Would you say that with a force shield, any jedi could easily block solar flares hitting them directly?
Now that's a laughable false equivalency. Both of those examples are completely attack potency focused. Conjured lightning of that nature is a very much physical attack and we see that it can actually kill people. (See Luke and Leia running away to escape its destruction.) Same with flares. It's not a mental attack that can be resisted with fortitude. It's a physical force.

And you're trying to use roundabout examples instead of the direct comparisons we're shown in the lore. Malacia is in the same realm as pushes and mind tricks. Both of which can be resisted by force users who properly put up defenses. There really isn't any reason Malacia isn't the same.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Here’s the thing: Jedi are not superheroes with superpowers. They’re regular humans (except for the alien ones) who can call upon space-magic. Which means that any forcepower that can affect a nonforceuser, can affect a forceuser.
It's way harder to use abilities like the Mind Trick against someone with proper defenses and/or proper fortitudes. Both of which HoC would have as a force user.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Now forceusers can use their own abilities to counter those abilities that get used at them, but its not immunity, and its not some kind of a video game where “HoC casts force shield; he’s immune to the force”. First of, a force shield is a conscious effort: HoC uses a force shield? Then he’s drawing focus and power on protecting himself. Focus and power that gets drained from his own offensive.
Nope. Putting up defenses is practically muscle memory for Force Users. So it's not some kind of detriment. And the whole "losing focus and power that could be used on the offensive" point is moot considering HoC had his defenses up whilst fighting all his foes. If he hadn't, they would have done any number of things mentioned below:

Force Shields:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Second; a force shield does not just outright make you immune to the force abilities of another. Dooku for example explains there’s ways to circumvent jedi training:
The methods he's referring to are almost certainly dark sided in nature. So Oppo won't have em. Furthermore, he's saying this to someone he's torturing. The methods he has in mind almost certainly wouldn't come into play in non torture situations.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And a forcepower such as Malacia, one that is esoteric, and which functions by turning an opponent’s equilibrium, their own strength and calm, against themselves, sounds like a perfect anti-jedi ability.
That's IF you can get past the extra tough Jedi fortitude and their passive force shields. Observe how Rancisis describes using the ability:

Flow of Blood :

To do as the text mentions, you'd have to get past someone's natural Force barrier/shield to use Malacia. It's even harder than turning off someone's saber mid duel or yanking it from their grasp. If it's already hard as fuck to do something like that in conventional duels between two closely matched opponents, imagine just how much harder it'll be for Rancisis to do something way harder against an opponent of greater force power than himself.

Lets revisit the Encyclopedia. It tells us that Malacia requires tranferring one's own force energy into the target. Hard to do that when your opponent's passive defenses block Force attacks

Encyclopedia:

To help properly paint a picture, I've taken the liberty of creating this visual with HoC on the right

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Image

This is all assuming that Rancisis decides to attempt to use the ability against our Hero. Because it's not exactly practical within a fast paced duel. He'll be too busy fruitlessly fending off the Hero's lightsaber attacks to have a chance to pull Malacia out. Expending resources to use Malacia is not in Rancisis' best interests.


Nute_Chethray wrote:This is blatantly providing misinformation. The quote never mentioned nonforceusers. Its a “difficult discipline”, which just means that its harder to learn, which is why many prefered to use other powers. This does however not mean that somehow the ability takes greater effort to perform, and nowhere does it say its difficult in the context of fighting opponents.
On the contrary, Malacia takes up more energy (VP/Vitality points) and is harder to use than normal offensive TK (force strike). Additionally it takes the same amount of energy to apply that as it does lightning. One of the most taxing abilities:

Vitality Point Comparison:

To be completely frank though, we don't even need stats for this. Since it's rather basic in concept. It's easier to do a one and done attack than to focus on someone's mind and pour your energy into them. So yes, it does take greater effort.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And the argument that its harder to use against a forceuser: that applies to everything. Its more difficult to use a force push against someone who can also force push. Its more difficult to use a lightsaber against someone with a lightsaber. Its more difficult to use a blaster on a forceuser than a nonforceuser. But none of this prevents it being capable of being used against them.
And why is it more difficult to use a force push against force users? Because they can actually defend against it with their barriers/shields. Why is it more difficult to use a lightsaber against a force user? Because they train to fight with and defend against sabers. Using an attack on someone who can easily defend against it means the attack won't mean anything or be all that useful in the long run.


Nute_Chethray wrote: And malachia, an ability specifically intended to use the strength and equilibrium of their opponent and turn it against them, sounds like an ability that specifically would be more useful the tougher the opposition.
You've mentioned this before and I find it puzzling that this is the route you'd take. When you say "strength" and "tougher", are you referring to physical strength or strength in the Force?

If it's the former (which Rancisis' description in JVS supports), the point has zero value. Because we can't at all quantify HoC's physical strength. Despite my excellent visual depictions of the Hero so far, it literally can be whatever. Similar to the Outlander in this case. Hell for all we know, it could be a woman. And therefore could have horrible physical strength. For legal reasons this is a joke.

And if it's the latter, and you mean to say that HoC's superior force ability makes him more susceptible, I'd have to ask why? Because none of the scans you've provided suggest that.

Or maybe you refer to something else. Which would be moot since physical strength is what more or less seems to be emphasized.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Lots of assumptions here alone.
Lol. Lets get into it then.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof that he has a particularily potent barrier?
Why wouldn't he? It's all but necessitated. He wouldn't have been able to beat the high tier force users that he did if he didn't have a good barrier. The fact that his enemies were never able to violate his barrier with TK or other attacks more than supports that. If his barrier wasn't up to par against his opponents, they could just yank his saber away or forcefully turn it off or any number of things. To quote PoD again: "A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was."


Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof that he has sufficient force sense to sense the ability being used?
Force users can sense when other force users are exerting themselves greatly or getting ready to exert themselves greatly. (Which is what Malacia requires of Oppo.) It's in the base of every force user. Hell even untrained ones can sense presences. To sense exertion isn't much different.

Sense:

HoC is more than strong enough in the Force to sense something so simple.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof that he has either ability? In the game (the only source to ever include HoC), he only has force push, force heal and lightsaber throw. Not force barrier or force sense. You also can’t say “game mechanics”, as you were the first to argue for it being a proper demonstration of his abilities:
--
So would like to see sources for his “potent barrier”, how he can just “sense” Malachia, of how he can “block it” with seemingly no effort, and of how he has any of these abilities.
I don't need to argue "game mechanics" since it's the most basic and necessary protection there ever was. It just is a thing with every force user. Do really think someone like Dooku wouldn't yank HoC's saber out of his hands if he could? It's extremely in character for any of HoC's opponents in the game to do so. HoC did have his barriers/shields/defenses up.

But sure I'll humor you. HoC was able to sense Palpatine getting ready to use his lightning. And was able to block multiple bursts of it. Among various other examples.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Lightning

To hammer the point home, the very essence of dueling as we see it in SW is both a contest in the conventional physical realm and in the Force. Force defense is always just as present as saber defense. Fights are determined by who can outmaneuver or overpower their opponent on both dueling prowess and force defense and sense.

Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel.

-Path of Destruction


Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof that it isn’t? In the quotes I’ve posted its called “A powerful defense”, it induces “powerful dizziness and nausea”, a “potent martial art”, and is “powerful when employed properly”. Everything suggests its an extremely powerful ability (you yourself said its “an extremely potent ability”), yet you just dismiss it by saying its not that tier of hax. Where’s your proof? Where’s the argument? You just try to dismiss Malachia but never give evidence for why its not a strong ability.
Your argument is that it's some no limits fallacy that ignores basic universe rules like Force barriers. With how you're attempting to paint the ability, Oppo could instantly take down literally any character in the verse. Your argument might as well paint him and anyone that can use Malacia as the GOAT force usuer.

Oppo would need to channel his energy into HoC. Such a thing wouldn't be possible if the HoC is blocking Force attacks with his own defenses. So it's not some defense bypassing hax.


Nute_Chethray wrote:So you’re going to specifically ignore the explicit reason for why other abilities are favoured? Malachia is as you said (but in an entirely wrong context), “difficult” to learn, and most jedi in the prequel era have no need for powerful techniques that takes a lot of investment when they are most likely never facing other forceusers. Even during the clone wars, they fought mostly armies of droids. They aren’t expecting to duel Dooku or Sidious 1v1. They resort to mind tricks and pushes because its “easier” to learn.
So a one size fits all power that would plausibly allow someone of Bruck Chun tier to instantly take down Crucible Luke exists and..... Almost every single Jedi finds it useless? Sounds like a stretch.

The Jedi were prepared to square off against dark siders too. The Order was a lot more vigilant post TPM.

Jedi are ready:

They have every reason to learn an ability that (by your logic) would let them instantly take down Palps. Even if there's a narrow chance of them meeting him, the potential benefits far outweigh any reasons not to learn the ability. Hell, absolute mastery isn't even necessary. Just need to be able to use it.

Yet despite this, most of the order didn't think they'd need it. As per Vos, they were ready (most of em without Malacia mind you) to face whatever the Sith have planned for em. Which would certainly include fights against the Sith themselves.


Nute_Chethray wrote:This point debunks itself. Koon has the ability to use it but doesn’t against ventress > its because he isn’t as good with it as Oppo. You even say that its a fair argument. So there’s your explanation. But even if we disregarded the fact that you instantly debunked your own argument, the argument is flawed: Plo Koon at the time is injured, and Ventress is ambushing him. In this fight HoC won’t be allowed to ambush Oppo from the get-go.

Koon doesn't have to be as good with it as Rancisis in order to instantly take down Ventress with it if the ability ignored force defenses. And there's no indication that he's bad with the ability. That is what you'd have to prove. That he's substandard in his skill with it. Clone Wars CG says he can use it just fine. It wouldn't have given him the skill if he couldn't.

In the time it took for Ventress to lunge at him, he was able to issue orders. Hell, they were literally facing each other. He isn't getting sucker punched here. The fight starts more or less on a neutral playing field. If Malacia could ignore force barriers, (which it would need to be able to for it to play a role in the fight against HoC,) then Koon could and would have used it here.

Spoiler:

Koon actually is able to TK her here. Meaning he broke through her force barrier. He coulda just turned Malacia on right here but it seems that the ability isn't even reliable enough for him to use it to keep her down. Her fortitude must just be too much for him to use it.

Spoiler:

And you have to elaborate on the injury. How is one broken arm stopping him from using Malacia? He's able to duel fine. So it's not like he's strapped for stamina or energy.


Nute_Chethray wrote:You have no argument. Your arguments are the following:
Its not combat-applicable -> you admitted its combat applicable, and sources explicitly say that.
Useful against non force sensitives, yes. Not so much against a competent force user.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Its only been used on nonforceusers -> doesn’t prevent it from being used on forceusers.
Rancisis notes that it's remarkable against non force using thugs. Zero sources would support it being some one size fits all ability. And the nature of its use (pouring force energy into someone) would fall under what's generally blocked by force defenses. It's about as useful as mind tricks against force users. So not very. Add to that the extra Jedi fortitude it'll have to go through on top of the barrier.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Its “difficult” -> quote put in a blatantly false context
As if that's the only evidence that points to it being harder to use. Refer back to the vitality points argument. Hell, even that aside, like I said, carefully focusing and pouring energy into a specific area of a target is harder to do than just force pushing. It's inherently more taxing.


Nute_Chethray wrote:People use mind tricks and force pushes -> some people have force storms yet others still use force pushes; better techniques are harder to learn.
This is a wonky example lol. Storms are never given the short straw in comparison to other abilities like Malacia explicitly is. If Malacia could ignore force defenses and insta-defeat anyone, then it would be used infinitely more than we see. What you're painting it as is a miracle pill that would defeat any threat with ease.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Plo Koon has it! -> you said he doesn’t use it because he’s worse than Oppo with it. And he even had circumstances hindering him.
But he's still 100% able to use it. If it ignored force barriers, his fight with Ventress wouldn't have been a fight at all. And he had zero hindrance that would stop him from using Malacia specifically. A broken arm does not mean he can't use Malacia. Nor was he suckerpunched and unable to bring it to bear due to that.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Proof for HoC even having force speed or force augmentation? To my knowledge, and according to the evidence thus far provided in the thread, he only has force push, force heal and lightsaber throw.
--
And then I would like proof for HoC being “vastly” faster than Oppo.
The fact that he defeated characters who are faster than Oppo more than speaks for itself as far as HoC's speed is concerned. You'd have to argue that all his opponents somehow held back and let him win if you think his speed isn't on the Titan+ class. And Oppo is laughably below that class as per intent and various supremacy quotes. HoC on the other hand is beating Titans.


Nute_Chethray wrote:So what you’re suggesting is a gap big enough that HoC than draw on the force, run around Rancisis, and stab him in the back, all before he can even react. Would like to see evidence for such a gap in speed and power. And I would like to make note that even AOTC Dooku couldn’t react quickly enough to save himself from Coleman Trebor.
All HoC has to do is move before Rancisis is able to focus and transfer his energy into him. It doesn't have to be before Rancisis can react. Just has to do it before he brings the power to bear. But as I've said, it's not like Rancisis can get past HoC's barrier.

As for the gap between HoC and Oppo, feel like I've made that very clear throughout this debate. But sure, I'll repeat myself: The Hero is held at or above a class which is held far above Oppo's class. Your arguments for his standing place him as number 3 in clout. Which isn't necessitated to extend to power levels. And even if it was, that'd put him below Windu, who is constantly held far below Yoda. The same Yoda that had to pull out esoterics against HoC but still lost. And of course, after that, HoC fights Palpatine and MFV.

The Dooku example is moot. It's not like Dooku was prepared. Wasn't exactly conventional neutral ground. Would go very differently if it was.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Actually the impasse in question was regarding their ability to influence the other with their respective abilities, as thats what he says in the literal sentence before
In that case, this argument is even more useless lol. When it says "impose their will", it refers to Anzati TP. He's basically saying "we can't mind trick each other and you need info and I won't tell you". That's what the impasse is. Not a martial arts contest.

Impasse:

NEG to Alien Species:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Furthermore, Tholme claims that Dooku is only more skilled than one of the master’s students in some ways, and the master easily reacted to and dodged a sudden attack from Tholme:
The "some ways" are clearly the only important ones in determining a fight lol. Plus Tholme caught and defeated that Master's student. Whereas he got curbstomped hard by Dooku. Safe to say he's just coping. Lastly, the master dodging one attack is not an indicator of parity lol.


Nute_Chethray wrote:You say that circumstances cause Vos to hold back, but fail to acknowledge that she does the same. She is intentionally giving him false information and making him believe Sora Bulq is Dooku’s master:
Your argument for the Anzati is that they're amazing martial artists who can press Jedi. This point above has zero relevance to that.

But lets recap: She """pressed""" a Vos who was holding back and trying to pump her for info, ran away because a direct confrontation is not favorable for her, deactivated his saber with a cheapshot with the cortosis gauntlet and ultimately still got ragdolled when he brought the force fully into play. Aaaaaand then finally once he's taking the info from her..... she reveals exactly what happened. She gives him the face of the man who hired her along with Viento: Sora Bulq.

She reveals what she knows. Not the same thing as he was doing.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Because she’s an agile fighter and an assassin who prefers to be mobile? Would you claim that Sidious is massively sub Yoda since he fled to the senate halls rather than his office? How about Maul vs the TPM duo? They constantly moved. None of this changes the fact that she managed to shut down his lightsaber by striking the hilt with her claws, and hitting him repeatedly, forcing him to rely on the force.
Sidious and Maul didn't disengage and run away to get the drop on their opponents. This assassin did. You're confusing cheap moves as proof of combative parity.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And the reason it matters even if he can use the force on her to win, is because Oppo is against an entire army of masters even greater than her, surrounding him from all sides and attacking at once while he has multiple circumstances hindering him, limiting his ability to wield the force. And even then he destroyed them.
If you're using the fact that they're so good, they make their enemies resort to using Force attacks, what was the point of implying that Oppo is way more skilled than them when he killed most of them with Force attacks lol. Furthermore, they thought they were attacking an unsuspecting target. But he knew they were there as soon as they entered his room. So a good portion of his kills can be attributed to him having the drop on them.


Nute_Chethray wrote:It means that Bulq believes he has a chance of beating or matching him. The latter which he did.
Who cares what Bulq believes. It's noted that Windu only used all his skills (which likely also includes saber skill mind you) when he fought Ventress. So it's more likely that he was holding back against Bulq. That or Bulq's performance against Windu is a circumstantial thing only due to knowing his moves and doesn't have much bearing on overall power levels.

All his skills:

Furthermore, Mace was stated to be distressed during his fight with Bulq. Sora was like a brother to him. The reason Bulq did so well was because Mace didn't wanna fight him. But when Windu got serious and realized the real fight was against Ventress, he instantly slapped Bulq down.

Spoiler:


Nute_Chethray wrote:So since Bulq has fully perfected vaapad he’s fighting differently than Mace? That implies Mace has not fully mastered it. Which means Bulq is a greater duelist than Mace, even pre-dooku training, and yet still is inferior to massively weakened Oppo.
He perfected it in his own eyes. His style has changed. He only thinks it's superior to Windu. His new dark philosophy makes him think he has the right idea on the style. Windu himself notes that Sora didn't master the ability. All I said was that Sora's style changed. Not that it's better than Windu. Which it isn't ultimately.

Vaapad mastered him:


Nute_Chethray wrote:You’re using content made long after Bulq’s story made by an entirely different creator to limit him, which just doesn’t work. As of Republic, there had been no incidents where Sidious killed acolytes for growing too powerful.
Palpatine being weary of the growth of disciples and limiting their power and/or growth has been a thing since the 90s (see Geth). And it fits his character. If Bulq was a serious threat, Palps would have him slapped down.

DESB:

With Ventress, we're more or less given a level at which he'd start getting concerned of his acolytes.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And even if this argument did work, there was nothing Sidious could do about it. Bulq was in a fully fortified and unbreachable base, surrounded by forces loyal to him, and besieged by an army of clones and jedi. Neither Dooku nor Sidious could get to him at the time even if they wanted to, and at the time Bulq was massively important to their plans.
It's funny that you argue this and then later go off on a tangent about Palpatine being a master manipulator that orchestrates all kinds of things. It's not out of his means whatsoever to shut down Bulq if it really was important to him. And various Jedi breached the base, too. It's not like Palpatine has no means.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Bulq in his last confrontation with Windu matched him in pure dueling. Then he faced darkside growth and training under Dooku. How then, could he be trash compared to Windu when he’s grown better than he was before
For one, Windu wasn't using all his skill and was distressed. So "matched in pure dueling" is a bit generous as I've shown above. And for another, we have Bulq getting trashed in their first fight when Windu gets serious. The only thing Bulq has supporting him being near Mace is his own taunt. Vague growth + ego isn't enough to just assume he's Windu tier.


Nute_Chethray wrote: Even if you claim that they knew each other’s moves, that shouldn’t have mattered in their last fight if Windu is around the level for you to think he could blitz Oppo. He should have disarmed Bulq before he could even ignite his lightsabers.
Windu wanted to understand why Bulq fell to the dark side. Why would he just immediately paste him? And even after their talk, judging from the artwork, Windu hardly appears to be taking the fight seriously. Judging by his facial expressions. And look back to the Jaden Korr quote I posted in my opener. Dueling correlates with Force power. And given what his force power is capable of against Bulq, I see no reason he can't do the same thing in sabers. The only prayer Bulq would have then is knowing Windu's moves but that does not mean he scales to Windu tier.


Nute_Chethray wrote:This is also an attempt to make a point that gets proven by the point itself. I provide sources saying Bulq is comparable to Mace/possibly even superior, and then for how Bulq won’t face Oppo directly even while drastically weakened. And then you dismiss them saying “But Mace is >>>> Oppo and Oppo is > Bulq”. But my sources would debunk that claim, and its up to you to find a way to counter them that isn’t just “but they’re wrong”.
You provided Bulq's flawed opinion/just a taunt plus his "matching" a Windu that wasn't taking the fight that seriously. I've pointed out that it's just a taunt as well as the fact that him being >~ Windu doesn't really gel with the lore. I've also gone into why Bulq matching Windu is a spurious take. We're left with Bulq at one point "matching" (likely due to him knowing a lot of Windu's moves) a Windu that wasn't serious, and then Bulq taunting Tholme by saying he's better than Windu.

Your argument is Windu>~Bulq (Since he "matched" Windu and believed himself to be better) < Exhausted Oppo (since he didn't wanna face him directly) < < Prime Oppo.

Yet earlier and later in your posts, you imply that Windu is > Oppo. Hell, that is a massive crux in chair scaling too. Clout transfers to overall standing in your view. Windu is above Oppo in clout. So your proposed argument is:

Windu>~Bulq (Since he "matched" Windu and believed himself to be better) < Exhausted Oppo (since he didn't wanna face him directly) < < Prime Oppo < Windu

For chair scaling to work, Bulq can't be Windu tier. That or Bulq is above Oppo but just used a cheap move anyway.


Nute_Chethray wrote:No. He was taught Yoda and Anakin’s “signature moves”:
--
And signature moves are, like the term implies, something that is inherently characteristic to their fighting style:
You can use something inherently characteristic to one thing without knowing the entire thing lol. You or I don't need to be be a master of whatever martial art Bruce Lee uses to learn one of his moves.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Its also funny that you say “he only knows one move from each” when its convenient, but when you argue for HoC’s fighting style you say he can switch between multiple styles with ease:
Because they're not mutually exclusive. Whipping out a special/different than usual move in the middle of combat to surprise your enemy fits within the context of what Chuck Norris tells us.


Nute_Chethray wrote:But you just said that he doesn’t know any different styles! He only knows 5 signature moves, thats the extent of his lightsaber knowledge. And note that unlike what you would have us believe, Chuck Norris doesn’t mention anything about moves, he specifically says its switching styles that throws enemies off balance:
When did I say he doesn't know any fighting styles? I said he doesn't know the exact styles of those combatants. Which is what you tried to use to bog down the Hero's wins. Moves fall under style. He's still using their fighting styles albeit for just a move. Think about it like this. In a fight, if one were to use a move that's outside of their normal style, that could still trip the enemy up in order to gain an upper hand. These aren't mutually exclusive things.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Moves are never mentioned. So you have to make a decision here: Does HoC know five different styles and it gives him an advantage, or does he only know five signature moves, all from jedi Oppo knows.
Simple. HoC can change his normal style with signature moves from other Jedi. Which is helpful within fights. But hey, even if he knew all those styles, that's further proof he scales to those combatants.

Also, Oppo knowing the Jedi in question doesn't really mean anything. HoC learned their magnum opuses. We have zero indication that Oppo did the same. Merely knowing someone isn't enough to counter the moves advantage that HoC has. Unless you can prove that Oppo knows how to use all those moves as well.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Only Yoda used a technique that wasn’t taught to the Hero in their spars as far as the evidence you’ve provided shows. And that was a force technique that could be blocked on HoC’s saber.
Are you trying to imply that the fact that it's blockable makes the feat less impressive? Yoda had to pull out all the stops. He had to bring esoterics into the mix and still lost. Not really reflective of him holding back. And it only supports my point that HoC's win against Yoda is a testament to the Hero's skill and power.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Just like how Plo Koon beat Yoda fair and square.
Plo ""beat"" Yoda in a fight of unknown and therefore unusable circumstances. And that's if the fight even happened in the first place since it's it's only a rumor. We do know the circumstances of The Hero's fight against Yoda on the other hand and we can quantify them. He beat a Yoda that used esoterics, which would imply that Yoda was very far from holding back.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Yet he had knowledge of Jinn’s, someone who matched Maul. He had of Kenobi, who beat Grievous. He had of Yoda, who matched Sidious.
He had one move. And bear in mind, you don't have to use the moves you learn in combat in the game. So there really is no proof that he relied on those moves. Also Jinn is sub Maul so it's not like it would have done HoC much good.


Nute_Chethray wrote:You don’t think that Oppo has ever experienced the signature moves of these jedi, aka the moves most characteristic to their style? Aka the ones they would use the most of any moves? If anything, these are the parts of their fighting styles he knows the best.
Why would he know their magnum opuses the best? Plus knowing something exists or even seeing it is not the same as being able to counter or use it. Oppo has at best witnessed it. Why should that translate to him being able to counter it. Do you really think you or I could counter Bruce Lee using his famous movies just because we know they exist and/or have seen them? Similarly Rancisis maybe witnessing the moves in question is by no means confirmation that he can counter them. And you haven't provided any proof of Rancisis sparring with the Masters enough to be that well intimated with them.


Nute_Chethray wrote:HoC knows five ways to move in total. Five. Comparatively, even the basic training of regular jedi have moves for each of the six zones of attack/parry, and there’s six of them:
You do know that the signature moves HoC learns isn't all that he knows/uses in combat, right? Also proof that he only knows 5 moves? Sounds like conjecture to me. If you base that off of him being taught the signature moves of those Jedi and nothing else.... well by that logic, Oppo knows zero moves since we don't get any such lore on his lightsaber combat knowledge.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Meaning basic initiates have more variety than HoC. That means that Oppo will easily be able to deal with the amount of moves HoC performs, and it means Oppo can switch between far more moves than HoC… and this is just Oppo’s pre-form I training…
Going by your logic: Oppo doesn't know those pre form 1 moves. Because by your logic, characters only know what we've seen them learn.

Do you really think it's possible to master the magnum opuses of those Jedi if your pre form 1 argument was true? Beyond that, you've said earlier that he outright has their full fighting styles:

Nute_Chethray wrote:PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

So there's two ways we can go about this:

1: HoC knows the full fighting styles of Oppo's superiors (Yoda, Anakin, Mace, etc). Meaning that he is superior to Rancisis for not only having their fighting styles, but also beating them. Whereas all Rancisis has is witnessing some of the fighting styles in question.

2: HoC only knows the signature moves of Oppo's superiors and not their full combat style. Meaning he can bring just those to bear without any of the potential drawbacks of their full styles. And that HoC is superior to Rancisis for not relying on those full styles in his fights with Oppo's superiors.

Pick your poison. As both of these options work very well for me.


Nute_Chethray wrote:But why not? Judging by the fact you did not attempt to counter my point in any meaningful manner, I will take it as you conceding that HoC has lesser force knowledge than an initiate while being a padawan. Since you went on to not try to counter HoC not even knowing you can throw a lightsaber with the force as a full on jedi master, that means you also concede his force knowledge still is ridiculously at his prime. Yet you then expect us to believe: 1. He has force shield and force sense (neither one an ability he has learned or used at any point). 2. He can sense Oppo’s intentions instantly. 3. He can block an esoteric ability that only Koon and Rancisis can use at all, and only Oppo has mastered?
1: Force users put up their defenses as soon as the blades are drawn if not sooner. HoC would not have been able to beat the opponents he did were it not for that. You would have to argue that they massively held back or something equally nonsensical. We don't need to be explicitly told that characters put these defenses up for it to be the case. In fact, I'm sure there's more instances of it not being mentioned. And sense is a passive thing anyway. This whole argument on your part is arguing that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

2: So it's your belief that Oppo would transfer his energy into HoC and the Hero will just not notice him trying or not counter it? Force users feel when other force users exert themselves. And they sure as hell would feel it when someone's pouring their essence into them.

3: Yes since to use it, Oppo would need to get past our Hero's shield/defenses as well as Jedi level fortitude.

To address the broader point: HoC doesn't need to be some Force scholar to defeat Force scholars. (Which mind you he did multiple times.) Different Jedi focus on different fields. With HoC, it's clearly dueling. Because that's ultimately all he needs. He doesn't need to use combative TK to defeat Maul. (Mind you in all my posts, I stressed combative TK. There is zero proof he doesn't have any kind of TK knowledge prior. It's just that he decided to start using TK in combat later on.)

To become a Jedi Master, is to be the pinnacle of the Order. It's not just his Force Power and skill that made HoC a master. Notice how Anakin was denied the rank despite his vast power and skill. HoC by the standards required to be a Master has a deep connection and understanding of the Force.

Pinnacle of the Order:

In fact, HoC perfectly embodies the ideal Jedi philosophies. By not deciding to throw his lightsaber until the later stages of his career, he is perfectly embodying the words of wisdom that Obi Wan gave to Anakin:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Btw, lightsaber throw falls under TK. HoC's had that for a long time. It only became useful for our Hero later on. And Yoda's words can be read that way. HoC learned that it could be useful and started using it.

Spoiler:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Simply saying “it won’t do Rancisis much good” should not be acknowledged as a counter argument in any form if it demonstrates his full ineptitude in wielding the force. You arguing HoC has force shield, force speed, force augmentation, and force sense without sources proving it is in on itself then something I could handwave, but it gets even more ridiculous when you then argue:
Like I said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Why would this source need to mention shields and passive defenses and such when most SW stories don't? It's simply a mechanic of the universe. Would you argue that Onimi would get force choked by Kyle Katarn or someone else simply because we never see him use TK and the only extent to which he used the force was using his self taught art of the small and basic TK?

HoC not thinking saber throw is useful enough to learn and use until later isn't evidence that he can't do anything with the force save for the 3 powers the game gives us.


Nute_Chethray wrote:As a full padawan going on solo missions HoC doesn’t know how to use telekinesis.
Again, note what my argument said. I made it clear I was referring to combative TK. Which he simply didn't need.


Nute_Chethray wrote:But he does know the functions of, and counters of, an esoteric ability you’ve repeatedly talked about as “difficult”. You yourself have argued that most jedi ignore Malachia in favour of force push (one of the three abilities HoC in his lifetime has taken the effort to learn). But now you expect us to believe he has extensive knowledge of Malachia?
This point more or less debunks itself. Jedi see Malacia and how to apply it, decide it's not worth it, and ignore it for Force push. But they still know it exists. Which is important. Which is all that really matters. Knowing that you'll get hit from an attack that requires an enemy to transfer force energy into you and focus the force on a certain area. You can block that with simple mental defenses because the ability is intended to be used on thugs who have lower fortitude + can't put up mental defenses like Jedi can. And the cherry on top of it all is that Oppo is the master of the ability. Any Jedi should know to watch out for that within combat with Rancisis. Here's an analogy: Malacia can be viewed as a kick in the down south region. Oppo is someone who's infamous and well known within the order to kick someone in said region. When fighting him, that's the region you'll know to look out for. Except guess what, Force users have a better protected down south region and that goes double for the Hero. So not only will that be defended against passively, it's something HoC will look out for.


Nute_Chethray wrote:False equivalency. 1. The functions of sith sorcery and malachia are different. 2. Anakin, unlike HoC, has extensive knowledge of the force. 3. Anakin has faced sith sorcery at the hands of Dooku and others before. 4. You have made no case why her sith sorcery couldn’t possibly function on Anakin.
1: They're both not easy to do and honestly when properly applied against a proper foe, they have similar decommissioning effects. If anything, Malacia is harder and less reliable given the expenditure compared to normal TP. Additionally, her spells shouldn't get past his defenses when they're up. Which is whole the point. Her debilitating spell won't get through a sufficiently powerful force barrier.
2: Proof that Anakin knows of the long dead art of sorcery and has counters for it specifically? Because the Jedi don't have access or knowledge of the holocron that Zannah learned it from.
3: You will have to provide those examples. And will have to show that it's the same kind that Zannah uses to make her enemies go mad. But if in those examples, Anakin resisted or overcame it, that is a big argument against your esoterics case.
4: I just assumed you held Anakin high enough that you wouldn't have him losing to someone who should be laughably below him given how much the Banites grew in the generations.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Its an anti-feat in the context its being used: Its an anti-feat that shows that HoC is likely the least knowledgeable and masterful force practitioner we have encountered in the history of SW, and that even to learn 3 abilities he has to spend his entire career as a jedi.
The game only cares about what abilities are useful in fights. It's not necessitated that he doesn't know more. Merely that it's not relevant in the fights within the game. And you seem to think "lightsaber throw" is its own force power somehow. It's just TK lol.

Furthermore, knowledge clearly doesn't matter since he beats characters who are among the most knowledgeable within the verse. If you put Oppenheimer in a ring with Mike Tyson, Oppenheimer isn't gonna win because he scales above Tyson in knowledge. Forget that, Put Jocasta Nu in the ring against someone like A'Sharad Hett. Nu ain't winning. Oppo's knowledge supremacy similarly doesn't matter because HoC can counter the only trump card Oppo has. As can most force users likely by just putting up defenses. Plus Oppo won't have time to transfer his own energy into HoC because he'll be too busy defending against the Hero's far superior skill with the blade.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And then you proceed to post two quotes that say Dooku is arguably the best swordsman of the order as of TPM, and two which directly compare his combative ability to Yoda’s by having both beat Windu. Your argument of TPM Dooku ~ Yoda stands!
A quote calling him arguably the best doesn't necessitate that he's GOAT at the time. Hence the arguably lol. It only affirms that he's a top tier. As for the Windu quotes, they by no means necessitate Yoda~Dooku. All they necessitate is that both Yoda and Dooku are better than Windu.

Though Jedi Dooku ~ Yoda was never in my scaling chains. Nor is it in my bottom line. But hey, if you want further clarification, here's a quote I'm sure you've already seen.

Spoiler:

So he wasn't on par with Yoda as of TPM. But as we see, he was on par with him as of AOTC. Which means that instead of being a "Master on a par with Yoda", Dooku became a Sith Lord on par with Yoda. However, let me state again that my claim never was TPM Dooku~TPM Yoda. Lets hope you understand that now.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Because he is already old even for his own species, and has had centuries to reach his full potential. Not to mention that during most of his late life until the clone wars, he’s barely even used his lightsaber:
--
Infact most hadn’t seen his lightsaber for years:
None of this serves as proof that he didn't grow. While fighting provides faster growth for force users and Jedi, it in no way means that not fighting much/not using his saber causes you not to grow.

We also have Order wide growth quote. The Jedi have been growing as a whole in the 200 years before Palps and they're still growing post TPM. There is zero reason why this shouldn't apply to Yoda, the face of the Jedi.

Order growth:

Force users naturally grow. And one that is extremely force strong like Yoda should be no exception.

Age has not slowed Yoda down whatsoever. According to the quote you yourself sent. And according to H2H:

H2H:

So age isn't stopping his force knowledge and reserves from growing and there is zero evidence for a plateau in his growth. On the contrary, he should benefit from the Order wide growth.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Not to mention that its on you to prove that Yoda has grown. Since it is you making said claim.
It's only natural for Force users to grow. Outside some cases, the only direction most characters go is up. Sometimes they go down but stagnation is something that you'd have to prove. As such, growth is the default assumption and one that I've supported above.


Nute_Chethray wrote:However if one has a quote of supremacy (Yoda) which you yourself use to put him above all jedi (which includes HoC), and the only comparison putting HoC > Yoda is a training duel (which Plo Koon also has bested Yoda in), then I see no reason not to still favour the quote. As there is no contradiction in HoC beating a holding back Yoda training a jedi knight. Especially when even Plo has beaten Yoda as well. And you hold Plo massively bellow Mace:
Again, Plo Koon's fight is unquantifiable. If it happened in the first place. Since it's just a rumor. HoC's is not. Yoda was going all out and then some. Why else would he bring esoterics into play.


Nute_Chethray wrote:So either you hold Mace > Plo/HoC > Yoda, or you must admit that a training spar is not enough to indicate superiority.
Or option C (aka the right one) is that when the intent of the game is for HoC to beat Yoda fair and square while Yoda is going above his usual tactics, that HoC's duel is scalable. Furthermore, look back on the Shadow Hunter example. Yoda embarrassingly outperforms Plo and other masters while holding back. That is the clearest cut link we have between Plo and Yoda and it shows that Plo is nothing to Yoda. Compare that with HoC's very clear cut besting of Yoda and it becomes clear that one of the two is actually scalable.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And ultimately, the issue with your argument here is: You provide quotes saying Yoda is the greatest jedi, and then you say “but he isn’t, since HoC is better”. So what you’re saying is that the quote is wrong. That invalidates the quote, and leaves it completely open for other exceptions. HoC beat Yoda in a spar and therefore is > him? Then Plo Koon is too. And then the quote doesn’t matter anymore, and HoC can no longer hide from Rancisis behind the supremacy quotes of other characters.
The quotes are a rule. HoC is the exception to the rule. Why? It's simple, his feat(s) unquestionably breaks him out of the bind or at least necessitates that he's as close as possible.

Plus, I don't need to prove why Rancisis is sub Yoda since your primary argument has him below both Yoda and Windu. And you've provided excellent evidence for him being a inferior of both. I don't have to bother responding to arguments that you didn't make. Your arguments against HoC in this point consist of a duel that is only a rumor (and lets be honest, it likely never happened) and "Why can't the guy my case presents as sub Yoda and Mace be above Yoda?"


Nute_Chethray wrote:And once those are gone, its clear that HoC has no ability of his own, with the blade or the force, that will render him capable of fighting THE MASTER OF MALACHIA
If those are gone, which is a pipe dream, then HoC still has him beating Palpatine and MFV. (Please stay tuned for that. I promise I'll get to it real soon.)

And no you had it right the first time. HoC is as per your words a "Master with the blade" and "is one of the most skilled duelists in the PT"


Nute_Chethray wrote:Mace needs an amp to challenge Sidious and Yoda doesn’t, so therefore Yoda is >>> Mace? Where does this massive gap come from? Why is it not Yoda > Mace. Why, it might even be Yoda ~ Mace, with Mace needing the amp just to bridge a miniscule gap between him and Yoda.
Their performances throughout the war say it all. Windu needing "all his skills" to defeat 22 BBY Ventress (As per the earlier scan), whereas Yoda in the same year, casually disarms her while she's prepared to fight. (Which would mean he easily broke through her Force defenses.)



It is supported in the episode guide too:

Episode Guide:

There's other points to look at but honestly, it's clear that Yoda is Windu's clear superior. By a wide margin. Just a default assumption at this point. Even assuming it's just ">" which you suggested with zero reason or evidence, it's still Yoda>Mace>Oppo. Rancisis looks far less favorable in comparison to Yoda.

I'd also have to ask: Why is it ridiculous for Yoda, the Grand Master of the Jedi to be far above Rancisis? Yoda has literally everything over Oppo to suggest a big gap. Just the way it is I'm afraid.



Last edited by Chris Cortosis on September 4th 2022, 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

September 4th 2022, 9:16 am
Nute_Chethray wrote:You are however correct:
Aren't I always?


Nute_Chethray wrote:while Mace has supremacy quotes over Rancisis, the gap between them is unknown. So the gap may once more be: Mace ~ Rancisis.
You say this with zero evidence. The only thing you could use to put Rancisis at Mace's tier is Sora's ego. You'd have to take a taunt at face value and ignore the fact that Palps won't let dark Jedi get too powerful in order to do that.


Nute_Chethray wrote:So its just as likely that: Yoda ~ Mace ~ Rancisis as anything else. Its also massively more likely than having immense gaps between Yoda and Mace.
Yes, Windu who struggles more with an enemy that Yoda casually disarms is somehow Yoda's equal. And Rancisis, who is inferior to both of them is approximately at their level. Totes doesn't sound like nonsense.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Furthermore, one of the quotes you validate to show Yoda > Mace says that Mace is the second-greatest jedi. Which once again binds HoC. So if Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)>Rancisis is true, then Yoda>>>Windu>(Unknown Amount)> HoC must also be true.
But did Rancisis defeat Yoda or Palpatine or MFV? No? Then that means he is bound whereas HoC can break out of the bind with his feats. Binds are like handcuffs, just because one person can break out of them, doesn't mean everyone can suddenly lol.


Nute_Chethray wrote:The second quote you provided for Yoda > Mace, also has Palpatine/Sidious saying Mace is a greater warrior than Yoda, and Yoda just the better teacher, so it contradicts itself, with Sidious’s opinion (which is more neutral) and Mace’s (who’s biased towards his former teacher).
Lol. Palpatine is speaking from the point of view of a non force sensitive. (That's the role he plays when speaking to the Jedi.) He's not meant to be the one in the right at that moment. His pov isn't meant to be taken at face value compared to the guy that knows Yoda way better.

Plus, I'd take a concession from the man who lost spars against Yoda as solid evidence for him being below Yoda. In peace and in war.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Yet all your sources make Yoda ~ Mace ~ Rancisis just as possible.
Not in the slightest. The minimum is Yoda>Mace>Oppo. And as per your own argument, Rancisis is an inferior to Windu.


Nute_Chethray wrote:*the superiors of Rancisis and HoC himself. Which means there’s nothing preventing Rancisis from doing the same.
There's nothing that would allow him to do the same either. Your very case has him as the Tertiary master. Aka below Mace and Yoda. Rancisis has to be sub Mace and Yoda. Whereas HoC can be more nebulous. And his feats speak for themselves. Even if you're able to call him defeating an esoterics weilding Yoda a fluke, we have his fights against Dooku, Palpatine, Grievous, and MFV. None of which are flukes (we'll get to those real soon.)


Nute_Chethray wrote:Only if you’re willing to toss the quotes. And only if the feats actually show what you want them to. And if feats are so good, when will you be willing to show any feats of HoC being capable of blocking Malachia?
Sure I don't mind repeating myself: The fact that none of HoC's opponents yanked his saber from his hands or extinguished his blade or any number of things that can be done against characters without Force shields is clear evidence that not only does he have a force shield, but that it's potent enough that they couldn't break through his barrier. So they had to try (and fail) to challenge his mighty lightsaber + aug skills. And from there, since Malacia requires one to pour their force energy into a target, and such a thing wouldn't work when a character has a force shield, it's pretty obvious that our Hero can block Malacia.

Now when will you show me feats of Malacia being used against Force users and not just fodder thugs?


Nute_Chethray wrote:Then, if they are subject to the same quotes, what prevents Rancisis from having the same gap as HoC from Yoda and Palpatine?
The fact that Rancisis is sub Base Windu. Who in turn is closer to Ventress without his big amp.

That and intent. HoC is intended to be above the Titans. You can try to lower him with supremacy quotes but he'd still need to be in that general class in order to defeat them like he did. The intent in stories that write Rancisis generally has him sub Yoda. The intent in HoC's sole appearance has him above the titans.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Being superior to Sora Bulq, who says he’s superior to Mace, despite Oppo being at his weakest, would be one of many such comparisons.
But that goes against your primary argument of Oppo being tertiary Master. Your suggestion is Oppo>>Tired Oppo>Sora~Oppo


Nute_Chethray wrote: You’re currently using Yoda and Mace supremacy to limit Oppo and Bulq. Once you claim that they’re not supreme, then the Oppo-bulq-mace comparison has no counter.
Like I said, the only evidence for Bulq~Mace is him taunting Tholme and/or believing himself to be Mace's better. And you attempted to use Bulq fighting a Windu who wasn't using his skill as evidence that Bulq has saber parity. Whatever good Bulq did in that fight can be written off as him knowing Windu's moves since they're sparring partnets. There is literally nothing in that fight that paints Bulq in a favorable light.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Would like to ask you to choose. Are Yoda and Mace supreme, and both Oppo and HoC their inferiors? Or can both freely be put above them, and therefore your only point of argument for HoC supremacy is moot?
HoC is either above Yoda and Windo or close enough to them to defeat them. Rancisis has no such luxuries. As you'll need better evidence than a taunt for him to have parity with Windu. Simply put: HoC has better evidence putting him above Windu and Yoda than Oppo. And since you haven't provided any evidence for Oppo>Yoda, I'll just assume you smartly hold him below. And that via defeating Yoda, HoC can easily be put above Oppo.


Nute_Chethray wrote:The ONLY sources saying Rancisis is inferior to them are the ones that also says HoC is inferior to them.
On the contrary. As you've shown us, chair scaling places places Rancisis below Yoda and Windu. So we have two means in which Rancisis is sub Mace and Yoda and zero means in which he's superior. Whereas I have HoC being superior as per his feats against the Titans. And the only thing against HoC is technicalities and quotes that don't have him explicitly in mind. (Unlike the quotes against Oppo)


Nute_Chethray wrote:Nope. The worst case scenario for you is either that HoC and Oppo are both sub Mace, or that both are free to scale above Yoda. Those are also the best case scenarios. Since those are the only two scenarios.
Either we go with the quotes and HoC is sub Yoda and Mace but able to beat Yoda, meaning he's <~Yoda and Mace. Which leaves us with Rancisis~HoC as per chair scaling. Or we don't go with the quotes and HoC is > Yoda. Which leaves us with HoC>Yoda>Mace>Rancisis. Both are fine with me.

Simply put, if we ignore the quotes, HoC can still punch up. But you've locked Rancisis below Mace and Yoda with chair scaling and would need to come up with another argument that'll contradict your first post so you can scale him above Yoda.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Considering HoC fought Dooku after he had just fought Kenobi, Anakin and Yoda, and was completely exhausted after the first two, I would wager that anyone could.
This was not immediately after the Yoda fight. As that would be impossible. Mace assigns you to go after Dooku on Geonosis. And Yoda is in the room too. Both of those things would be impossible if this was right after Dooku's fight in AOTC. It's shortly after AOTC. Which is just fine for my scaling.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Dooku is operating at 100%. Furthermore, it's only Obi Wan who's defeated here in the game. And Obi as of then wasn't a hard fight for Dooku whatsoever so there really is no evidence that Dooku was tired against the Hero:

Also notice how Oppo is in the council meeting at this point in time. Windu says "very few can match" Dooku's skill. So even with Oppo fully available, the council sends HoC. Clear supremacy the Hero holds even as early as circa AOTC.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

But let me provide even more evidence that the Dooku that HoC fought wasn't weakened:

More fearsome than ever:

Clearly the intent isn't for him to fight a tired old man.


Nute_Chethray wrote:They had swords, which could also cut his tail. They had alot more swords than HoC had lightsabers infact.
Lightsabers are far more damaging than swords. Especially when wielded by one of the best swordsmen in the era like HoC. Attacking HoC with his tail is a very big risk for Oppo. Remember, Obi Wan got decommissioned for the entire fight with just a couple grazing strikes. Plus sabers cut through stuff like butter. Way better than whatever vibroswords the Anzati were using. And obviously touching the blade isn't gonna end well. If Oppo foolishly decides to use a tail attack, it's at the massive risk of taking a debilitating blow. Or just losing his tail.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Main-qimg-72c926babab3735e0d6a884fedbb7076


Nute_Chethray wrote:Yet to provide any sources for Grievous’s speed, why its superior to that of Oppo, and why he strikes with a single weapon faster than Rancisis does with all five limbs at once. Infact when using all four sabers at once, grievous struck 20 times a second. Thats 5 strikes with each per second. Which is not alot at all considering you think jedi can speed-blitz even other jedi masters. To fight off a whole squad of anzati masters attacking him at once, Oppo must have reacted to more strikes than that at once.
Grievous was an opponent that could attack faster than even thought. An assault from him is rather deadly. 5 strikes in a second is insane. And considering speedblitzing takes one strike in less than a second, it lines up just fine.

As for the Anzati, the fight starts with Rancisis having the drop on the assassins, who were expecting him to be completely unaware.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Nowhere is he shown fending off multiple blades at the same time. He seperates them and takes em down rather methodically.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Also remember: Windu, Rancisis' superior even has great difficulty with The Good General. From his close fight in LoE to Elite Squadron having him rely on X2's help. HoC is able to deal with the speed of a person who pressed Rancisis' superior in that aspect.


Nute_Chethray wrote:You say this, yet Maul repeatedly kicked Obi-wan and Jinn. Anakin and Obi-wan had a wrestling match. Anakin physically grabbed Dooku’s arms in ROTS. Etc.
These examples don't answer the question or prove why the advantage isn't moot like I said. The only thing similar to Maul's kicks that Rancisis is capable of is tail attacks. And I already explained why those aren't smart for him. (Massive target. And lightsabers will do far more damage than Anzati swords and are way more likely and capable of amputation.) In Dooku's example, Anakin only grabbed Dooku's hands after wearing him down. Which Rancisis won't be capablle of in our fight. And it started as a bladelock too.

I never said you can't use punches in duels. But extra hands don't offer some scale tipping advantage. It's extremely moot.

Especially because as we see in Oppo's final fight, he only really uses em to force push in multiple directions. And those pushes sure are hell won't be useful here considering Rancisis will need to gather energy to use em. And HoC will sense him gathering energy. Hell, even if he doesn't, as soon as Oppo even begins extending an arm, HoC will notice answer the move.


And now onto the Battle Med arguments:


Nute_Chethray wrote:But we know for a fact this isn’t true, as we have seen jedi use it on the spot offensively before. For example we have Nomi Sunrider, at this point not having received any jedi training and never having practiced using the force at all, using it to cause two darkside beasts to attack each other:
--
On later occasions Nomi has shown the ability to casually use it to make a large amount of krath warriors fight each other:
--
These warriors are noted to be powerful in the force, and to fight using it:
--
It even seems implied that she actually has to use battle meditation combatively to defeat them, and that without it they could actually kill her. This would imply that for users of battle meditation it might even be a greater weapon combatively than regular fighting.

Also works on more powerful forceusers, as evidenced by Nomi incapitating Aleema Keto with battle meditation (note, its confirmed that Nomi is using battle meditation to do this):
I don't really see any indication that Oppo has Nomi's level of aptitude for the ability. Hers is practically similar to the Halcyons and their illusions and tutaminis. Save for the disadvantage part.

Natural Talent:


Nute_Chethray wrote:And cause Mara Jade (a forceuser) to fall asleep before she even is on the same planet as him:
Proof that this is battle med being used by Joruus and not simple TP? Because Joruus uses it on Luke too. Why would you use battle med specifically when you're trying to coerce someone?

Use on Luke:

It clearly isn't battle med. It's just simple TP/force suggestion:

Spoiler:


Nute_Chethray wrote:You could try to argue that this Nomi and Joruus are doing something Rancisis isn’t capable of, but frankly that would be utterly insensible. Nomi’s first feat is performed by a Nomi with no training whatsoever, and the latter two as a simple knight who is still learning how to use battle meditation. Oppo Rancisis is a jedi high council master who’s been using it for hundreds of years.
There is no proof that Rancisis' aptitude for the ability is greater. Lets get into it. Unlike what we see in the descriptions of when Nomi used the ability or even Joruus, Rancisis was using it exclusively for tactics. According to both himself (as per your scans of him trying to see the war) and multiple characters in the arc:

Spoiler:

What Rancisis is doing, what makes him such a threat in this arc is his plans. Never once is he said to be bolstering the Republic's morale or demoralizing the Separatists. The value he has is his knowing of a grander plan to take out the Sep Installation.

Plans:

I can already hear you saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and that Rancsis was in fact amping Republic troops while debuffing Sep forces. Well that is disproven here:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown

Dooku thinks the Jedi are floundering after the loss of Rancisis. Which often happens when Jedi are cut off from the battle med power amp abruptly:

Cut off:

But as Vos clears up, it's just a part of their plan. So they didn't get cut off from his amp. Rancisis was neither amping his allies or demoralizing his enemies.

So with that, we can safely say Rancisis' aptitude isn't exactly the same kind as Nomi's.

If the Republic is able to take down the shield generator, then they basically insta win. Now if Rancisis had a power that would let him make enemies turn on each other, then he'd obviously use it and make em take out the the shield generator. Seeing as he doesn't, and seeing as we're told he explicitly uses it to just sense larger scale tactics, it's safe to say his aptitude isn't on the same level as someone like Nomi. Nor the same kind.

Shield:

As a further testament to everything, they just need the info/plan in Rancisis' corpse. The plan to take down the shield generator. That's the plan that he took 5 months to come up with. That's his greatest value.

Spoiler:

Anyway, this will all come more into play soon, for now, lets focus on your usage of Joruus:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Then we also have the completely untrained Joruus C’baoth who can use battle meditation to completely control 37.000 crew members:
The crew he was using it on were likely Spaarti grown clones. Clones that were grown in like 20 days and taught with flash learning. Very uncomplicated and simple minds. You'll notice he didn't control Pellaeon, the Chimaera's captain. Why wouldn't he? The argument going on in that scene was between Thrawn and Joruus. Pellaeon was more or less a non factor. The clones C'Baoth took hold of were mere months old max. Controlling alike minds is easier generally. (Also the passage you sent is from The Last Command. Not Dark Force Rising.)

Nature of Thrawn Campaign Clones:

So while impressive, the feat is somewhat circumstantial.

Though it's not like Oppo could even do what Joruus did. The Jedi during the battle weren't being mind controlled or amped or anything of the sort through Oppo. K'Kruhk's support in Oppo's plan boils down to "I'm sure he knows what he's doing"

Spoiler:

Hell, Oppo isn't even controlling the clones here. The Jedi have to order them. So he isn't even using the infamous coordination aspect:

Jedi Orders:

So Oppo isn't doing what Joruus was nor is he doing what Nomi was. More to support what I've explained above regarding his specific usage.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Comparatively, Joruus’s power is the same as that of Jorus, but with less training and knowledge, who in turn was a mere jedi master:
Proof that he has less knowledge? The scan you yourself sent says he had "all the powers". The way that's worded, it can refer to both the powers Joruus knows as well as his overall force power.

The "fundamental faults" in question is not a lack of knowledge. As the very next line in the Fact File says, it's his mental instability.

Clone Madness:

His knowledge is also said to be "extensive". Furthermore, a Luke who's had 5 years of training post ROTJ also believes his knowledge could help form a New Jedi Order. And the only thing that was stopping that was C'Baoth's clone madness. So you will need to prove that C'Baoth is "completely untrained". Hell, there's nothing to suggest he's below his template in knowledge either. Clones sometimes have memories imprinted onto them. And we know Palpatine wanted a perfect replica of the master. Why wouldn't knowledge be involved in that?

Extensive Knowledge:


Nute_Chethray wrote:If this is not enough to convince you of Rancisis’s superiority, note also that he has performed a feat vastly beyond the reach of any other Battle Meditation user, as he used it on the clone wars in its entirety, only prevented from doing so fully due to the darkside actively clouding him:
He tried to see the future, the bigger picture of the war..... and failed... Why is this beyond any other Battle Med user? None of them tried it. So why should we just assume they're worse? Why is him trying and failing meaningful at all?

Also thank you for providing more proof that Rancisis isn't able to scale above Yoda if we ignore supremacy quotes. As he wasn't able to properly see the factor at work, either.


Nute_Chethray wrote:However the use of battle meditation is not purely damaging in nature. Rancisis also used it to “visualize victory” and to guide where to strike:
As I've covered: That is all he used it for. Its only value in his case. Only to try to outstrip the enemy in longer term tactics.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Lets talk about visualization first. You might argue that its simply an idea of a possible future. Its not. According to Quinlan Vos, it is “as real [...] as if he had lived it.”. He sees a possible future, and he makes it happen.
And remember, it took him like 5 months to build up the plans that amounted to blowing up a shield generator from the inside. Immense amount of prep for something so trivial. Months of setting that up too.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Now you might question how this helps him. But honestly that should be clear. In every battle, to every event, there are probably millions of different ways for it to unfold. Doesn’t even have to be combative, by simply going on a walk countless events could unfurl. Even if one looks at a duel between Yoda vs Jinn there are many different possibilities for how it goes. We both think Yoda is much stronger, and if they dueled infinite times Yoda would beat him almost every time. But its only an almost.
That still means Yoda is better. Everything favors him in a fight so we'd say he's the victor.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Since like I said earlier, forceusers aren’t gods among men. They make mistakes, and if they do they can be punished like anyone else. Even Luke Skywalker is not invincible:
--
And as we can see this is evidenced by his inferior in Desann ragdolling him and actually defeating him in their duel:
Completely irrelevant to our debate. Plus the scan itself says Desann was a legit threat even if Luke wasn't surprised.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Now as you know, I am already arguing that Oppo is HoC’s superior, in power, skill and due to Malachia. But even if they were comparable, or if somehow someone could possibly imagine that HoC is superior, or even if you think that HoC could casually stomp Rancisis, do we truly think that the gap is such that its impossible for Oppo to win? Impossible for HoC to trip and stab himself with his lightsaber like a true Maul? Impossible for HoC to have a lapse in concentration or slightly overreach? To slip up his guard for just one moment? To underestimate or not notice Greedo and get shot in the back while dueling Oppo? To focus on Greedo and not notice Oppo using Malachia? If you do believe HoC is massively superior to any jedi in the history of SW, and is truly invulnerable to any and all possibilities, then of course HoC wins this debate, even if I scaled Oppo above Grandmaster Luke or DE Sidious it would not matter then. If you however think that HoC isn’t immortal, then there are ways for Oppo to win. And with battle meditation, especially with the darkside no longer clouding him, he could visualize those ways, and then enforce them. And with that, victory already belongs to Jedi Master Oppo Rancisis, Master of Battle Meditation, before HoC can even draw his blade.
What you wrote above could be used to say Oppo beats Yoda or Crucible Luke or The Ones or the Bedlams or any list of far superior foes (HoC included). For it to be the case, you have to believe that battle med is some no limits fallacy of gargantuan proportions. That is not how it works. Furthermore, it took months for Oppo to have that exact "visualization" of victory in his head/corpse.
For it to have a meaningful purpose in this hypothetical fight, you would need one of these:

1. Oppo has prep time that would make Batman blush. A long time before the start of the fight.
2. Within less than a second, Oppo would need to visualize the 0.000001% chance/times of him winning the fight and immediately start putting that into place, and start coordinating and telling Greedo what to do.

1 isn't possible. This debate is about a fight on neutral ground. 2 is also not possible. One's focus within a fight should be on the fight itself. Not some fantasy in which you could plausibly win the fight. Dedicating time and attention to battle med and visualizing is taking that time and attention away from defending yourself. Battle med as Oppo performs it is perfect for battlefields or tacticians. But a detriment within a duel.


Nute_Chethray wrote:You have argued that regular Greedo is below the competence of a basic sentient being. And whether that is true or not is completely irrelevant to my actual argument. What is relevant, is that you on your own volition wrote “Flash of Competence Greedo > Basic Sentient Competence”. Which means that you hold Flash of competence Greedo above the average sentient beings. Now just how good is Flash of Competence Greedo?
--
Greedo destroyed Gorm with a headshot. A single shot. This is extremely impressive, since Gorm is described as invincible, and a fortress:
You're kidding, right? The scan you sent literally says: "Gorm's disadvantage was his belief in his own invincibility. He thought he was a fortress. He thought he was unbeatable."

That is all his opinion lol. According to the passage itself.


Nute_Chethray wrote:However more importantly, Gorm previously had tanked a lightsaber stroke to his head in a duel with Qui-Gon Jinn:
--
And then proceeded to take two lightsaber strikes to the head from two opponents at once:
--
And even after that, after his helmet melted and fused to his neck, he was still screaming and trying to fight for a few moments before he was incapitated:
Qui Gon and Adi weren't exactly trying to kill him. They just wanted to incapacitate him. Were they in kill mode, it'd be much different. They only went after the helmet to take away his fighting capability:

Targeting system:


Nute_Chethray wrote:Meanwhile with Greedo, a single shot instantly downed Gorm:
While Gorm had his back to Greedo and didn't even know he was in the room.


Nute_Chethray wrote:We can hardly argue that a blaster is more powerful than a lightsaber-blade. So with one shot Greedo exceeded the performance of Adi Gallia and Qui-Gon Jinn hitting Gorm with lightsabers thrice despite having an inferior weapon and being further away. In other words, Flash of Competence Greedo is in truth FLASH OF BRILLIANCE GREEDO.
Greedo was shooting to kill. The Jedi were striking to incapacitate. Plus as I've said, it was with an enemy whose back was turned. It was a cheapshot. And not only was it a cheapshot, it was a cheapshot that was made possible due to a weapon that Greedo would not have access to within our scenario. Mind you, this weapon was one that had notable sights that would have provided an advantage:

Sights:

What are we left with? A Greedo superior to the one you have access to is able to cheapshot Gorm with a weapon that is noted for its incredible sights in an uncharacteristic moment of competence. TCW Greedo will not have access to Goa's blaster nor its accuracy advantage. He furthermore will be inferior to the Greedo that shot Gorm anyway. This whole argument has no meaning.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Now how do we make sure this shot-hitting and marksmanship-legend version of Greedo comes to action in this matchup?
Well you can't since this Greedo is years after TCW and used equipment that TCW Greedo will not have access to.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Simple enough: Battle Meditation. Rancisis can with battle meditation guide Greedo; make the future in which he hits the perfect shot or shots on HoC reality. And suddenly, HoC is facing a dangerous bounty hunter shooting at him while also fighting a jedi high council master with a lightsaber, Malachia, and battle meditation.
Already went into the whole battle med nonsense above. The more likely case is that HoC kills Greedo and then goes onto fight Rancisis. As both common sense and HoC's tendency to fight non force users first imply that he'd take out the smaller fish first before taking on the other small fish. Plus, HoC can just use FORCE PUSH to knock Greedo out without difficulty and then focus on Rancisis.

Also before you say it: No the small time in which it'll take to down Greedo won't be an opening for Malacia. HoC already knows to be prepared for it. Thanks to Rancisis' clout and fame within the order that you've presented in your first post.

And now onto the final section of your argument. The one I've most been looking forward to!


Nute_Chethray wrote:Finally, to finish off this post, I want to return RNG’s favour and pointing out all of HoC’s failures and defeats. A major point of your arguments for HoC’s superiority over Rancisis is scaling him above Yoda, Sidious and MFV. I have already explained why the Yoda fight is illegitimate. But what if I told you; HoC lost to Sidious and MFV?

Let us begin with the first fight: vs Sidious. You claimed that HoC beat Sidious, and that this proves he’s at the very least comparable to the titans:
--
But that is false, since he never did beat Sidious. Sidious won their encounter. Perhaps HoC managed to outduel Sidious, and that is certainly impressive.
He did outduel Palpatine so I'll stop you right there. Because guess what? That makes HoC a Titan. That's literally all The Hero needs to have Titan status. Why do you think Office Mace is held as a Titan? It's because he beat Palpatine. I could stop here since you've admitted that HoC outdueled Palpatine, (which is a Windu and Yoda + tier feat already) but lets keep going.


Nute_Chethray wrote:But Sidious has never been the greatest duelist.
Citation needed. Because a ton of other sources say otherwise:

Palpatine is one of the greatest duelists:

There's more but I think that's enough for now lol.


Nute_Chethray wrote:His true power lies with other things. And no I do not refer to force lightning, nor to telekinesis or telepathy, or anything like that. His true powers are lies and persuasion. Was it with dueling that Sidious caused the destruction of the jedi? Was it with force lightning that he caused the creation of the empire? No, he is a liar, a manipulator, and that is why he defeated the jedi order:
--
The thing that makes sith different from mere dark jedi are that they are the most manipulative, most malevolent, of all the followers of the dark side:
Absolutely none of that precludes Palpatine from being a top tier duelist. You can be an absurdly good duelist and an absurdly good manipulator. These things aren't mutually exclusive.


Nute_Chethray wrote:And even in combat, its noted that regular lightsaber combat is judged by skill. Advanced combat by force powers. And the sith win fights by breaking the jedi’s spirit; by lies and manipulation, not by their skill nor their power:
Nothing in your quote suggests they win by manipulation specifically. It simply says they win combat by breaking their enemy's spirit. Palpatine lost the duel. So he didn't succeed in breaking The Hero's spirit. So he lost. Simple as.


Nute_Chethray wrote:Ultimately, how did their duel end? Did the so-called Hero of Coruscant destroy Sidious and rid the galaxy of the dark side? No. Like Mace Windu and like Yoda, HoC lost his duel before it even began,
In what world would this constitute a loss? He defeated his foe in a spectacular display of saber skill.

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) PalpatineLoses

Yoda and Office Mace are also Titans. And like I said, the latter especially is given that status because of his performance against Palpatine. As such, the same is extended to HoC.


Nute_Chethray wrote:for with the slightest effort of persuasion on Sidious’s part he left Coruscant to the clutches of the darkside:
--
Mace Windu bested Sidious with their blades, but he had long lost since Sidious had put everything in place for Anakin’s fall. Yoda matched Sidious with the blade and the force, but he had long lost since Sidious had already destroyed the jedi and the republic. The Hero of Coruscant bested Sidious with his blade, but he had long lost, since there was nothing he could do to stop neither him nor Lord Vader.
This entire argument is a massive nothingburger. Palpatine failed to break the Hero's spirit and lost the duel. The Hero then went on to fight bigger prey. And that means he somehow lost against Palpatine because Palps told the Hero where Anakin was? In what way does that stop the hero from scaling to or above Palpatine tier?

It's one thing if you're claiming that Palpatine held back just so he can send the Hero after Vader as a test or something. But that was not Palpatine's intent. He sent the 501st (The Republic's best forces) to kill the Hero and when they failed, he took up the blade himself. There's zero indication that held back his tier 9 dueling skills in this fight:

You will die:

This entire argument boils down to "he might have won but he didn't because I say so"


And finally we are at the Grand Finale. The point I've been most looking forward to!!!


MFV time baby



Nute_Chethray wrote:Now onto MFV. Unlike Sidious he is not yet a manipulator or liar. He is a pure engine of destruction. So why does HoC not scale above him for beating him? Because while HoC beat one version of MFV, he specifically has to do it before MFV unleashes his full power, for at that point his assault becomes unblockable and capable of oneshotting:
You haven't any idea what you've unleashed upon us.

I'll start with a simple correction: No. MFV in that hyper state cannot oneshot the Hero. He just does absurd amounts of damage with that unblockable strike. He's still defeat-able after that barrage:

PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) RageMode


Nute_Chethray wrote:Making clear that HoC is in no way comparable to him. It only becomes worse because this is before he destroys the seperatist council and chokes Padme, and truly falls to the darkness. So: the MFV Kenobi fought > the MFV HoC fought > HoC > holding back MFV.
Neither of the MFVs the Hero fought are below the one Kenobi fought. For one, you haven't supported your claim about this being pre sep council murder MFV. The fight fits rather well post sep murder in fact. Also, you haven't proven that he has any sort of growth after choking out Padme.

At any rate, it doesn't matter since the "more fearsome than ever" quote I posted earlier debunks the notion that this MFV was inferior. So the base MFV in the fight can be held at the tier he was in the movie or better.

More fearsome than ever:


But I won't stop there since you've given me something too good:


DARK HEGEMONY:




Anakin when he enters that hyper state is on a qualitatively different level than we have ever seen. Not only does he get darker, his lightsaber turns red. His big strike speaks for itself.

Now... this is much greater than just a power thing. Lightsabers changing colors like this mid combat is just utterly insane. It's something we don't see anywhere else. Anakin is basically rewriting the simple laws of the universe for himself at the moments he enters this hyper state. Similar to the Zonakin moment:

Zonakin:

Anakin even temporarily breaks the dark side cloud around him and Obi Wan:

Cloud:

And of course, the Zonakin stuff is obviously better than his flash of brilliance in AOTC. Anakin's had far more growth, training, mastery, etc since AOTC. Can wield the Chosen One power far better. And on a much greater plane.

So Anakin enters his Chosen One state. His flash of brilliance. The zone. Whatever you wanna call it. The state in which he emanates his will for his outcome. And it's not just flowery writing. It's said that he will "control the universe"



(This scene was only removed due to Sith Spirit lore. Not due to what Revan says)

https://www.starwars.com/video/ghosts-of-mortis-episode-featurette


There's more but I think that paints a clear enough picture

The quality of the state as we see it in the fight against the Hero is way better. His dark will emanates so hard it literally changes his saber color. He has one goal. One wish. And that is to strike the Hero down.

I will dub this iteration of Anakin/Vader as DARK HEGEMONY VADER

And even with all that, the Hero is still able to fend off the onslaught and even tank the final unblockable strike. This goes beyond just a power level thing. With his Chosen One power and/or hax, Anakin decides that he will kill the Hero. That he will strike him. That may as well be a death sentence from the universe itself. Yet the Hero overcomes it. So what we have is:

-MFV that Kenobi fought < ~ MFV that The Hero fought < The Hero
-HoC (being able to fend off the onslaught) < ~ DARK HEGEMONY VADER > All other iterations of Anakin/Vader ~ Being able to control the universe/impose his will > > Oppo's shitty visualization


Nute_Chethray wrote:And while these are the most relevant examples, they are not the only ones. HoC beats Maul, but does nothing to stop him from killing Jinn and dooming the jedi. He beats Jango twice, but does nothing to prevent him from leading Kenobi to Kamino or nearly killing Mace. He beats Dooku, but he still escapes with the death star plans and so the clone wars continues. He defeats Grievous, but does not manage to capture or kill him and end the clone wars. Then comes Sidious and MFV, both who’m he fail to do anything against. And even Suit Vader continues unhindered. In Star Wars, every character’s existence is relevant to either the Will of the Force or to the Dark Side, everyone affects events so that the Will of the Force may be done. Oppo has guided many jedi, saved many lives in battles, and even his death led to Vos defeating Sora Bulq. Greedo threatening Han pushed him to help the Rebellion. Everyone matters.

Except the Hero of Coruscant. Remove him from the Star Wars galaxy, and nothing changes. Noone’s life gets different. The sith won’t be hindered. The jedi won’t be helped. Its almost as if he never existed at all…
The Hero does not need to be a big player in the universe. All he needs is the victories he has. After all, who cares about universal significance when you can withstand the death sentence of THE DARK HEGEMONY or defeat the greatest foes of that era?

(Before you attempt to pull out the "gameplay mechanics" card, I'll remind everyone that a substantial percent of Cheth's arguments here rely on skewed readings of gameplay/game aspects.)


Conclusions:



-The Hero is a high tier duelist within the era (if not GOAT). His spar with Yoda is usable for scaling as his fight with Palpatine and MFV, which is ultimately what matters the most at the end. Cheth's addressing of Palpatine's defeat amounts to "but he didn't kill palpatine after he outdueled him so he lost"
-Malacia isn't so no limits fallacy like Cheth argues. It like almost any force power can be countered and has to go through defenses. Cheth's argument that the Hero has no defenses are also very conjecture based. And to believe them would be to believe that the Hero's enemies experienced an immense iq drop since they decided not to force ragdoll a defenseless opponent. As that is complete nonsense, and given what we're told about force defenses and shields, it's a no brainer that the hero like anyone else would have defenses and given his feats against the enemies he's dueled, it should be more than enough to deal with Rancisis.
-HoC's scaling is completely valid whether you bind him below supremacy quotes or not. He has feats to prove he is of the Titan class. And similarly, if we're to remove all quote binds on Oppo, he still can't scale to the Titan class given much of Cheth's argument for him relies on him being sub Yoda and Mace.
-HoC's lack of esoteric mastery in no way precludes him from being Rancisis' superior. It just means he built his skill tree for a much smarter purpose.
-Cheth's battle med arguments completely misunderstand what actually happened in some instances and gives Oppo powers that aren't even really in his skillset. It's yet another attempt to turn an ability into a no limits fallacy. Visualizing is its own can of worms. Who's to say he can visualize without needing to sit down to meditate and focus? Who's to say it won't take more time than it's worth to get the proper visualization. And who's to say that visualization means anything? If the Hero can withstand the DARK HEGEMONY, this is nothing.
-Cheth has also introduced contradictory viewpoints: First being that Oppo doesn't have to be sub Yoda despite his entire argument saying Oppo is number 3. He says The Hero knows Anakin's fighting style and the styles of other masters and then goes onto say the Hero only knows 5 moves. Of which he also provides zero proof. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence only when it applies to HoC.
-The Greedo argument you've spent two posts on can't even be used given they're a later iteration of a character with extremely circumstantial advantages that won't be afforded in this match. As such, Greedo dies I'm afraid.

To close this off, I would like to state something similar to what Cheth has said but in a more accurate way:

One of our combatants was created and exists solely to win. And win he does. Constantly. Even against THE DARK HEGEMONY. Without circumstances most of the time too. The other combatant was created as a background prop who exists more or less as a sacrificial lamb within the context of one story. You would have to rely on multiple no limits fallacies and arguments that go against intent to raise him to the former combatant's level.


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) HeroDunks


That concludes my third and final post. Best of luck with your post and may the best man win the judgment stage. This has been a fun and unique debate. Thank you for debating me.


PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Unknown
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

September 4th 2022, 10:42 am
Great counter my friend, its a sad thing that I have to debunk THE DARK HEGEMONY in its infancy, its like killing baby Hitler, a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) 1648373583
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PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT PRELIM ROUND - RNG (Hero of Coruscant) vs. Cheth (Oppo Rancisis & Greedo)

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