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MasterCilghalLevel Three
SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
March 16th 2020, 1:58 pm
This thread is part of a larger tournament between 8 Suspect Insight members.
Depa Billaba as of Kanan: the last padawan. Darth Vader as of Vader down
Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. There will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. More information about the finishers will come soon. The verdict will be decided by a panel of moderators.
This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread (only applying to canon). Additional rules are as follows:
- Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
- Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
March 16th 2020, 3:21 pm
Just want to make sure everyone knows its no shame if ISV decides to concede
Underachiever599
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
March 16th 2020, 4:50 pm
TAEP
xoltholLevel Five
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
March 17th 2020, 7:50 am
TAEP
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 3rd 2020, 6:38 pm
The force advantage
I’m going to start with what most likely will be the biggest argument of my opponent. Vader’s superior power. Can’t argue it. But that isn’t important.
To explain why Vader can’t defeat Depa with the force I’ll refer to his other fights with forceusers. Let’s start with the strongest, to show that I’m not just using low showings.
In these fights, we see that Vader is powerful enough to affect them using telekinesis repeatedly.
But both of them clearly manage to block it or roll with it in a way that doesn’t allow Vader to take advantage of it. Kirak even directly counters the choke with a push of his own, showing that when Vader does focus enough to grip another forceuser, he leaves himself vulnerable. But you might try to argue they are stronger than Depa. So I’ll also use Ezra and Kanan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOBQy6Aa5mg
It's clear that Vader beat Ezra and Kanan, that's not the point. It's how the two padawans performed, despite struggling with the GI before. Vader pushed both, and while both flew back due to his obvious superior power, Kanan wasn’t hindered or even slowed by it. (0:50)
When Vader actively tried to ragdoll Ezra and kill him, Ezra managed to fight back temporarily. (1:08)
And here again, we saw that as soon as Kanan attacked Vader, he was unable to continue gripping Ezra. (1:28)
Recap:
Inquisitors
This is a pre-emptive counter to a point I’ve seen against Depa. Vader’s superiority to Depa based on the grand inquisitor. The points are:
The grand inquisitor is inferior to Vader, yet is a better duelist than Kanan.
If I missed something I’m certain my opponent will provide with more arguments on the subject that I have to counter later. But let's start with that:
Depa was an instructor for form 3 in the jedi temple. Multiple people were trained in it by her. Most jedi know of the form. And ultimately, Kanan wouldn’t be at the same level as Depa, especially not after he neglected training for years and even using the force for years.
Simply by practicing by himself later, Kanan grew enough to hold his own and land a hit. The Inquisitor confirms his growth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlQqw3_Imcw (2:27)
“You’ve been practicing”
Form 3 is also just one of Depa’s mastered forms. In addition to Soresu, she was a master of Vaapad, the only besides Mace that didn’t fall to the darkside. Mace was careful about only teaching a select few in Vaapad, so it wouldn’t be accessible knowledge.
And certainly not knowledge that Vader would possess.
The Grand Inquisitor was a jedi knight, trained under Sidious, and after being trained by Vader, read the records and library of the jedi temple, which likely was when he learned about Depa’s use of form 3. the GI knew things Vader didn’t. Because the GI grew since they fought, we can no longer even be sure there is a big gap between him and Vader.
Then there’s the matter if the Grand Inquisitor even is superior to Kanan.
During season 1, Kanan was noted to be out of practice, and to be severely hindered by his own fear.
“I would say someone like Mace Windu is far far far above the Inquisitor we've seen in Star Wars Rebels. But in this dark time when the light side is really suffering he is a fairly powerful guy. Especially for someone like Kanan, who kind of lacks his own conviction and belief in his own ability at this point. If you do that you don't believe in yourself how can you fight with someone like the Inquisitor. He gets Force thrown he really gets thrown in that throw has much to do with Kanan's own lack of belief in himself as does the Inquisitor is pushing him. There is not a lot countering the Inquisitor in that fight. We thought it was important to show Kanan really struggling.''
The quote explains that:
Said fear only goes away in the middle of their final duel, as noted by Kanan.
“No, because I have nothing left to fear.”
“You’re right, I was a coward. But now I know there’s something stronger than fear. Far stronger. The force.”
The “awakening in the force” that Kanan receives isn’t an amp, its himletting the force flow through him as a jedi would, instead of letting himself be controlled by fear.
The GI having knowledge of Kanan’s technique while Kanan didn’t know of the inquisitors gave the GI an advantage during each of their fights. Vader would not possess the same advantage over Depa.
So:
Kanan as of Season 1 already beat the GI after becoming balanced in the force, which is a change that stays afterwards
The Depa - GCW comparisons
I’ll start the arguments for Depa by doing the opposite of inquisitor scaling. Using Kanan to show why Depa is massively superior to the GI.
During the events of season 2 of Rebels, Ahsoka tells Kanan:
“Even at a young age you were gifted with a lightsaber. But without training and discipline, those skills fade.”
She bases this on duels they had in the jedi temple.
“....or had met while they were younglings at the jedi temple, the answer is YES.”
During most of 19 BBY Kanan hadn't been at the temple, so they couldn’t have done so then, so they must have met before he became Depa’s padawan. This is further supported by the post noting they met while he was a youngling. Therefore S2 Kanan, who’s superior to GI since the end of S1 is inferior to Caleb before he even began training under Depa, after which he experienced alot of growth.
So Caleb Dume (padawan) > Caleb Dume (youngling) > S2 Kanan > S1 Kanan > Grand Inquisitor. Depa’s superiority over the grand inquisitor should be proven to be at least be as great as Vader’s at this point.
Likely the best comparison possible, since this involves a somewhat direct comparison of Depa’s prime vs the version of Vader we’re using.
This is to show why Depa is more skilled than Vader. I’ve already shown why the force is not so important.
First the Depa vs Grievous fight, usually considered a loss on Depa’s part, but I’ll disprove that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSN6BOgrSSU (0:35)
Then she held off a massive army of droids with the help of Caleb and two clone troopers.
After a short flight, her ship was blown up by another artillery blast while she still stood close beside it, close enough to be thrown to the ground by it. And then a second CIS army comes.
And only then does she fight Grievous, someone who had prepared himself to fight her, while she didn’t even know he was on the planet.
Quickly into the fight, Depa manages to cut off two of Grievous’s hands in one blow, which he counters with a cut to her back.
Yet she kept dueling until the fight was interrupted, also showing that she’s also able to take a hit.
She was fighting defensively, but one of her main forms is soresu, a form designed for defensive combat and exposing enemy weaknesses, so it's hardly evidence against her. The fact that she under these circumstances and her injury still managed to stalemate Grievous at least suggests parity, and that she managed to cut off two of his hands so quickly shows she should be more than capable of winning.
Karbin’s cybernetics are supposed to be somewhat superior to Grievous’, which seems to mostly be due to a jetpack for increased mobility. But this is at the very least cancelled out by Grievous having more experience fighting forceusers, more experience/skill as a warrior (Grievous always was a fighter, Karbin only started training after getting his enhancements, which both was during a timespan of two years), and having been trained by Dooku, not by a scientist. Infact Grievous’ experience is attributed as one of the main reasons he was so deadly:
I’d probably consider Grievous superior to Karbin due to these factors, but even him being equal is enough.
Now to Karbin vs Vader:
When the fight starts, Karbin says “One saber against four. Admit it, Vader. You are outmatched.” Referring to Vader having no chance in dueling. Instead of disagreeing or proving him wrong, Vader collapses a statue on Karbin and cuts off one of his arms while he’s down, claiming “When you wield the power of the dark side. One lightsaber is all you need.” So Vader doesn’t fight using skill against Karbin, rather opting to the force.
Why would Vader specify it being because of the force that he doesn’t need more than one saber, while using the telekinesis to gain an advantage, if he could just beat Karbin by dueling. Especially considering how when Aiolin and Morit tried to state their superiority, he beat them with only his lightsaber.
Furthermore, once Vader was limited in the terms of using the force to dominate Karbin (limited, not incapable, since he still used the force repeatedly), Karbin (even while having lost an arm beforehand) managed to hold his own, roll with Vader’s force attacks, and despite Vader injuring him by the force earlier still thought himself as superior as a duelist at that point.
Vader again seems to confirm Karbin’s beliefs by having Aphra crash into him with a huge ship mid-duel instead of beating him himself. It seems clear that in terms of dueling only, Karbin should be superior.
Conclusion
I’m going to start with what most likely will be the biggest argument of my opponent. Vader’s superior power. Can’t argue it. But that isn’t important.
To explain why Vader can’t defeat Depa with the force I’ll refer to his other fights with forceusers. Let’s start with the strongest, to show that I’m not just using low showings.
In these fights, we see that Vader is powerful enough to affect them using telekinesis repeatedly.
But both of them clearly manage to block it or roll with it in a way that doesn’t allow Vader to take advantage of it. Kirak even directly counters the choke with a push of his own, showing that when Vader does focus enough to grip another forceuser, he leaves himself vulnerable. But you might try to argue they are stronger than Depa. So I’ll also use Ezra and Kanan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOBQy6Aa5mg
It's clear that Vader beat Ezra and Kanan, that's not the point. It's how the two padawans performed, despite struggling with the GI before. Vader pushed both, and while both flew back due to his obvious superior power, Kanan wasn’t hindered or even slowed by it. (0:50)
When Vader actively tried to ragdoll Ezra and kill him, Ezra managed to fight back temporarily. (1:08)
And here again, we saw that as soon as Kanan attacked Vader, he was unable to continue gripping Ezra. (1:28)
Recap:
- Vader requires immense concentration to hold even padawans
- Said concentration can easily get broken, even by simple counter attacks from the person he’s holding.
- Anyone above Ezra can avoid being ragdolled at all, or at least stop him from doing so even by themselves.
Inquisitors
This is a pre-emptive counter to a point I’ve seen against Depa. Vader’s superiority to Depa based on the grand inquisitor. The points are:
- The Grand Inquisitor recognised Kanan’s form as being taught by Depa
- Vader trained to Grand Inquisitor, and therefore would know Depa’s form as well
If I missed something I’m certain my opponent will provide with more arguments on the subject that I have to counter later. But let's start with that:
Depa was an instructor for form 3 in the jedi temple. Multiple people were trained in it by her. Most jedi know of the form. And ultimately, Kanan wouldn’t be at the same level as Depa, especially not after he neglected training for years and even using the force for years.
Simply by practicing by himself later, Kanan grew enough to hold his own and land a hit. The Inquisitor confirms his growth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlQqw3_Imcw (2:27)
“You’ve been practicing”
Form 3 is also just one of Depa’s mastered forms. In addition to Soresu, she was a master of Vaapad, the only besides Mace that didn’t fall to the darkside. Mace was careful about only teaching a select few in Vaapad, so it wouldn’t be accessible knowledge.
Force and Destiny wrote:"Even Mace Windu himself was wary of allowing others to study the form, outside of his own Padawan pupil, well aware of the danger it posed."
And certainly not knowledge that Vader would possess.
The Grand Inquisitor was a jedi knight, trained under Sidious, and after being trained by Vader, read the records and library of the jedi temple, which likely was when he learned about Depa’s use of form 3. the GI knew things Vader didn’t. Because the GI grew since they fought, we can no longer even be sure there is a big gap between him and Vader.
http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-101-servants-of-the-dark-side[/mention] wrote:“Using the knowledge contained in the archives of the Jedi Temple (now the Imperial Palace), he equipped himself with information allowing him to exploit the weaknesses of any opponent he could possibly encounter.”
Then there’s the matter if the Grand Inquisitor even is superior to Kanan.
During season 1, Kanan was noted to be out of practice, and to be severely hindered by his own fear.
“I would say someone like Mace Windu is far far far above the Inquisitor we've seen in Star Wars Rebels. But in this dark time when the light side is really suffering he is a fairly powerful guy. Especially for someone like Kanan, who kind of lacks his own conviction and belief in his own ability at this point. If you do that you don't believe in yourself how can you fight with someone like the Inquisitor. He gets Force thrown he really gets thrown in that throw has much to do with Kanan's own lack of belief in himself as does the Inquisitor is pushing him. There is not a lot countering the Inquisitor in that fight. We thought it was important to show Kanan really struggling.''
The quote explains that:
- During the Galactic Civil War, the inquisitor is powerful because the lightside is suffering
- And that Kanan lacks belief in himself, and therefore he can’t beat the inquisitor.
Said fear only goes away in the middle of their final duel, as noted by Kanan.
“No, because I have nothing left to fear.”
“You’re right, I was a coward. But now I know there’s something stronger than fear. Far stronger. The force.”
The “awakening in the force” that Kanan receives isn’t an amp, its himletting the force flow through him as a jedi would, instead of letting himself be controlled by fear.
The GI having knowledge of Kanan’s technique while Kanan didn’t know of the inquisitors gave the GI an advantage during each of their fights. Vader would not possess the same advantage over Depa.
So:
- Vader most likely does not possess the GI’s skill of knowing an opponent’s training with a look
- The GI would only know one of Depa’s forms anyways
- The Grand Inquisitor has grown significantly since his fight with Vader
- Training under Vader, years of experience in combat and the darkside, and reading the jedi library
The Depa - GCW comparisons
Kanan
I’ll start the arguments for Depa by doing the opposite of inquisitor scaling. Using Kanan to show why Depa is massively superior to the GI.
During the events of season 2 of Rebels, Ahsoka tells Kanan:
“Even at a young age you were gifted with a lightsaber. But without training and discipline, those skills fade.”
She bases this on duels they had in the jedi temple.
“....or had met while they were younglings at the jedi temple, the answer is YES.”
During most of 19 BBY Kanan hadn't been at the temple, so they couldn’t have done so then, so they must have met before he became Depa’s padawan. This is further supported by the post noting they met while he was a youngling. Therefore S2 Kanan, who’s superior to GI since the end of S1 is inferior to Caleb before he even began training under Depa, after which he experienced alot of growth.
So Caleb Dume (padawan) > Caleb Dume (youngling) > S2 Kanan > S1 Kanan > Grand Inquisitor. Depa’s superiority over the grand inquisitor should be proven to be at least be as great as Vader’s at this point.
Grievous
Likely the best comparison possible, since this involves a somewhat direct comparison of Depa’s prime vs the version of Vader we’re using.
This is to show why Depa is more skilled than Vader. I’ve already shown why the force is not so important.
First the Depa vs Grievous fight, usually considered a loss on Depa’s part, but I’ll disprove that.
Circumstances
First Depa had to avoid two blasts of artillery heavy enough to destroy two large bridges, which during the war of Mygeeto tanked multiple blasts from octuptarra tri-droids and republican vehicles as seen in ROTS:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSN6BOgrSSU (0:35)
Then she held off a massive army of droids with the help of Caleb and two clone troopers.
After a short flight, her ship was blown up by another artillery blast while she still stood close beside it, close enough to be thrown to the ground by it. And then a second CIS army comes.
And only then does she fight Grievous, someone who had prepared himself to fight her, while she didn’t even know he was on the planet.
Fight
Quickly into the fight, Depa manages to cut off two of Grievous’s hands in one blow, which he counters with a cut to her back.
Yet she kept dueling until the fight was interrupted, also showing that she’s also able to take a hit.
She was fighting defensively, but one of her main forms is soresu, a form designed for defensive combat and exposing enemy weaknesses, so it's hardly evidence against her. The fact that she under these circumstances and her injury still managed to stalemate Grievous at least suggests parity, and that she managed to cut off two of his hands so quickly shows she should be more than capable of winning.
Karbin vs Vader
Karbin’s cybernetics are supposed to be somewhat superior to Grievous’, which seems to mostly be due to a jetpack for increased mobility. But this is at the very least cancelled out by Grievous having more experience fighting forceusers, more experience/skill as a warrior (Grievous always was a fighter, Karbin only started training after getting his enhancements, which both was during a timespan of two years), and having been trained by Dooku, not by a scientist. Infact Grievous’ experience is attributed as one of the main reasons he was so deadly:
Force and Destiny wrote:“Drawing from his lifetime of experience and with the advantages offered by his mechanical body, Grievous slew numerous Jedi, collecting their lightsabers as trophies”
I’d probably consider Grievous superior to Karbin due to these factors, but even him being equal is enough.
Now to Karbin vs Vader:
When the fight starts, Karbin says “One saber against four. Admit it, Vader. You are outmatched.” Referring to Vader having no chance in dueling. Instead of disagreeing or proving him wrong, Vader collapses a statue on Karbin and cuts off one of his arms while he’s down, claiming “When you wield the power of the dark side. One lightsaber is all you need.” So Vader doesn’t fight using skill against Karbin, rather opting to the force.
Why would Vader specify it being because of the force that he doesn’t need more than one saber, while using the telekinesis to gain an advantage, if he could just beat Karbin by dueling. Especially considering how when Aiolin and Morit tried to state their superiority, he beat them with only his lightsaber.
Furthermore, once Vader was limited in the terms of using the force to dominate Karbin (limited, not incapable, since he still used the force repeatedly), Karbin (even while having lost an arm beforehand) managed to hold his own, roll with Vader’s force attacks, and despite Vader injuring him by the force earlier still thought himself as superior as a duelist at that point.
Vader again seems to confirm Karbin’s beliefs by having Aphra crash into him with a huge ship mid-duel instead of beating him himself. It seems clear that in terms of dueling only, Karbin should be superior.
To sum up
- Depa is > Grievous
- Grievous is >= Karbin
- Karbin is > Vader in terms of dueling
Conclusion
- Vader won’t be able to dominate Depa using the force, since he’s unable to do so properly against a far inferior Kanan
- Depa scales massively over the inquisitor
- Depa scales above Vader as a duelist
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 3rd 2020, 6:59 pm
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 3rd 2020, 7:02 pm
Great post.
The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 3rd 2020, 7:16 pm
Excellent post I concede. Depa ragdolls.
Nah, I should have something up soon
Nah, I should have something up soon
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 3rd 2020, 7:37 pm
Thanks both of you, and looking forward to your counter
IGLevel Four
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 3rd 2020, 8:30 pm
Great post
- Underachiever599
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 3rd 2020, 10:23 pm
Good post. Looking forward to seeing the counter.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 4th 2020, 3:59 am
@Nute_Chethray Great post! It is pleasant to see some respect accord to Depa Billaba
The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 4th 2020, 12:05 pm
good post :> hopefully to see how isv counters this
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 17th 2020, 9:56 pm
My post will be up tomorrow one day past the deadline. I can't get to it today due to family issues
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 18th 2020, 12:36 pm
My post came out a week or two after deadline. No worries> Korriban wrote:My post will be up tomorrow one day past the deadline. I can't get to it today due to family issues
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 19th 2020, 12:31 am
The force advantage
This is a misinterpretation of the power levels of these combatants. For one, Vader was immediately put into his suit before he even had a lightsaber and Kirak Infalla was an equal to Vader in the force so him shrugging off attacks like this is not unexpected nor uncommon:
The second thing is that you cannot directly scale Kirak to Depa in any meaningful way, so I don’t understand the comparison. The same can be said for Koth, who has a similar display against Grievous while injured. We have confirmation from Vader and Koth that he is more powerful than he was as a Jedi council member:
Vader accuses Koth of being more powerful by embracing elements of the dark side. Koth does not disagree stating “perhaps it’s the Zabrak in me” throughout star wars characters who were of the light fully embracing the dark side has given a massive boost IE: Cere or Anakin. So unless you can prove to me that Depa is with Darkside Koth and Kirak Infalla directly I don’t see how you can make this comparison. Additionally, these fights all take place over a decade before Rebels and “Vader Down” so again, the gap just becomes wider as we examine details.
Widening the Gap:
When Vader actively tried to ragdoll Ezra and kill him, Ezra managed to fight back temporarily. (1:08)
Vader’s demeanor throughout the fight is lazy and disinterested, he walks slowly towards his quarry and has several opportunities to kill both Kanan and Ezra, when a stormtrooper suggests pursuing the rebels he replies “that will be unnecessary, the rebels will not leave lothal.” If he actually wanted them dead, it’s very likely they would be dead, and he has reason for keeping them alive as well. The Grand Inquisitor and Vader both want to find the rebel cells, a small insurgency is not what warrants Vader’s presence, they are aware that there are more rebels. So what Vader is doing by letting Kanan and Ezra escape, is allowing them to lead him to rebel cells, and that is exactly what happens when he massacres the fleet near the end of the episode. You don’t have to take my word for it either, SW.com has this to say:
And here again, we saw that as soon as Kanan attacked Vader, he was unable to continue gripping Ezra. (1:28)
I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware this was a 2v1? How is this point relevant? Besides, as I have proven above; Vader was not intending to kill Kanan or Ezra and purposefully allowed them to escape.
When Vader is not trying to kill them, yes.
When Vader is not trying to kill them, yes.
If Vader was allowing them to escape, yes.
Inquisitive Thinking:
I have no quarrel with the arguments provided for Depa up until this paragraph:
Up until this point you have been establishing that Kanan is equal to or superior to the Grand Inquisitor by the end of season one. I have my disagreements, but we will continue with this line of thinking. Filoni says this about the heroes (Kanan and Ezra) and Vader:
Yeah, you can’t argue with the numbers he uses. Vader is a 50 or 80 and Kanan is in the 3-5 range. Assuming we go by your logic of Kanan overcoming his fear and being equal to or more powerful than the Grand Inquisitor, there is a massive gap between the two.
The rest of this is fine, I don’t wish to argue familiarity in styles, just had to touch on that part.
Grevious Stomping Depa:
As for the aforementioned circumstances:
Surviving explosions and blowing droids away is not something that hinders Jedi in duels, we see this all the time during the clone wars. It is un-quantifiable how much they would hinder her in this fight.
So she overextended and Grevious took advantage, is this not something that could come into play against a fighter as reserved and defensive as Vader?
Regardless the only real headway she makes against Grevious is due to a revised style and unpredictable nature as she points out here:
He responds with:
That’s when she lands the strike that takes his two hands, he thought he was fighting the old Depa (that he beat for the record) and the new one surprised him. This is more a testament to Grevious’s adaptability than anything.
Sure, she “took the hit” though she’s not as fine as you imply:
The first break in Grevious’s assault has her drop to her knees clearly wounded or exhausted.
Karbin vs Vader
Force and Destiny wrote:
“Drawing from his lifetime of experience and with the advantages offered by his mechanical body, Grievous slew numerous Jedi, collecting their lightsabers as trophies”
Well, Karbin has been training to replace Vader himself for two years along with a slew of other mechanical experiments:
Grevious has approximately 3 years of killing jedi under his belt, which is what owes to his experience, but he’s also being hindered from being too much of a threat to Dooku or Sidious. Karbin is literally being trained to be the next Vader, and if he were to kill Vader at that moment, Sidious would take him as his new imperial enforcer, so this experience gap is negligible if non-existent. Also, Cylo states above that Karbin is “the next step” of Grevious, that doesn’t mean he’s got a jetpack so he is more maneuverable. He's saying Karbin is an improved design of Grevious.
First of all, the idea that Vader abusing the force against a non-force sensitive somehow translates to him accepting inferiority is laughable. Secondly, Vader isn’t exactly in the right state to duel with Karbin for a little while, so he tries to end the fight as quickly as possible. Let’s break this fight down:
If you know anything about the 2015 series you know Vader is obsessed with finding Luke and he clearly doesn’t want Karbin to claim his prize, which leads to the fight:
First thing is first, Vader and Karbin clash blades and the duel is then interrupted by the simultaneous wookie fight and the activities of Luke and the Droids. Off panel they are clearly fighting, for several minutes. It is when we return that the scene you describe takes place:
While Karbin boasts Vader takes the opportunity to crush him under the rubble. Karbin runs into the nearby caves to which Vader pursues. He then talks about how he won’t die here today, that he has faced greater challenges than Karbin and nothing will stop him, he clearly does not acknowledge inferiority like you imply. Note too, the cavern Karbin retreats into the cavern and the fight pauses:
Vader gets distracted by visions of his past and doesn’t notice Karbin behind him allowing Karbin to land a blow (similar to Depa and Grevious ironically enough) the two resume dueling until the fight is cut off by the wookie brawl again:
We only get another glimpse of the fight in this issue where it is revealed they have moved out of the cavern back onto a field:
Darth Vader #15 opens with a clash between Karbin and Vader:
Which leads into these sparse shots of the duel:
In the scan above Vader clearly appears to drive back and overpower Karbin while casually holding a conversation with Aphra, leading to another cut to focus on the wookies, to the final segment you posted earlier:
Finally in issue #20 of Darth Vader we have the Dark Lord say this about Karbin:
So to sum up:
We cannot extrapolate any parity from Vader and Karbin considering all of these factors.
How is she > Grievous when he landed a hit on her? You can argue equality at best, but > is more than a stretch.
Karbin is the next step in Grevious’s design per his creator and has spent 2 years trying to be worthy enough to replace Darth Vader.
Vader held his own against Karbin for the entire fight, and if you count injury Vader was actually in a worse circumstance than Karbin and still came out on-top
Cheth wrote:I’m going to start with what most likely will be the biggest argument of my opponent. Vader’s superior power. Can’t argue it. But that isn’t important.
To explain why Vader can’t defeat Depa with the force I’ll refer to his other fights with force users. Let’s start with the strongest, to show that I’m not just using low showings.
In these fights, we see that Vader is powerful enough to affect them using telekinesis repeatedly.
But both of them clearly manage to block it or roll with it in a way that doesn’t allow Vader to take advantage of it. Kirak even directly counters the choke with a push of his own, showing that when Vader does focus enough to grip another forceuser, he leaves himself vulnerable
This is a misinterpretation of the power levels of these combatants. For one, Vader was immediately put into his suit before he even had a lightsaber and Kirak Infalla was an equal to Vader in the force so him shrugging off attacks like this is not unexpected nor uncommon:
The second thing is that you cannot directly scale Kirak to Depa in any meaningful way, so I don’t understand the comparison. The same can be said for Koth, who has a similar display against Grievous while injured. We have confirmation from Vader and Koth that he is more powerful than he was as a Jedi council member:
Vader accuses Koth of being more powerful by embracing elements of the dark side. Koth does not disagree stating “perhaps it’s the Zabrak in me” throughout star wars characters who were of the light fully embracing the dark side has given a massive boost IE: Cere or Anakin. So unless you can prove to me that Depa is with Darkside Koth and Kirak Infalla directly I don’t see how you can make this comparison. Additionally, these fights all take place over a decade before Rebels and “Vader Down” so again, the gap just becomes wider as we examine details.
Widening the Gap:
Cheth wrote:But you might try to argue they are stronger than Depa. So I’ll also use Ezra and Kanan.
It's clear that Vader beat Ezra and Kanan, that's not the point. It's how the two padawans performed, despite struggling with the GI before. Vader pushed both, and while both flew back due to his obvious superior power, Kanan wasn’t hindered or even slowed by it. (0:50)
When Vader actively tried to ragdoll Ezra and kill him, Ezra managed to fight back temporarily. (1:08)
Vader’s demeanor throughout the fight is lazy and disinterested, he walks slowly towards his quarry and has several opportunities to kill both Kanan and Ezra, when a stormtrooper suggests pursuing the rebels he replies “that will be unnecessary, the rebels will not leave lothal.” If he actually wanted them dead, it’s very likely they would be dead, and he has reason for keeping them alive as well. The Grand Inquisitor and Vader both want to find the rebel cells, a small insurgency is not what warrants Vader’s presence, they are aware that there are more rebels. So what Vader is doing by letting Kanan and Ezra escape, is allowing them to lead him to rebel cells, and that is exactly what happens when he massacres the fleet near the end of the episode. You don’t have to take my word for it either, SW.com has this to say:
And here again, we saw that as soon as Kanan attacked Vader, he was unable to continue gripping Ezra. (1:28)
I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware this was a 2v1? How is this point relevant? Besides, as I have proven above; Vader was not intending to kill Kanan or Ezra and purposefully allowed them to escape.
Recap:
Vader requires immense concentration to hold even padawans
When Vader is not trying to kill them, yes.
Said concentration can easily get broken, even by simple counter attacks from the person he’s holding.
When Vader is not trying to kill them, yes.
- Anyone above Ezra can avoid being ragdolled at all, or at least stop him from doing so even by themselves.
If Vader was allowing them to escape, yes.
Inquisitive Thinking:
I have no quarrel with the arguments provided for Depa up until this paragraph:
Cheth wrote:The Grand Inquisitor was a jedi knight, trained under Sidious, and after being trained by Vader, read the records and library of the jedi temple, which likely was when he learned about Depa’s use of form 3. the GI knew things Vader didn’t. Because the GI grew since they fought, we can no longer even be sure there is a big gap between him and Vader.
Up until this point you have been establishing that Kanan is equal to or superior to the Grand Inquisitor by the end of season one. I have my disagreements, but we will continue with this line of thinking. Filoni says this about the heroes (Kanan and Ezra) and Vader:
Dave Filoni wrote:What Vader represents to me in Rebels is the ultimate manifestation of your fear, and of your inability to move forward. They are not going to be able to defeat Darth Vader. This is an immovable object. The easiest way to explain it is, our heroes are like level five characters and Vader’s level 50. [Laughs] It’s not going to take much for him to do them in.
Dave Filoni wrote:
I don’t think our Rebels are a match for him, on any level. Our guys are like level three, maybe they got to level four this season. What’s Vader, like level 80?
(...)
So it’s a challenge to write believable scenes, mainly from our heroes’ side, that you believe they could have any success in this next season because there are some very heavy hitters that have been brought in to deal with them.
Yeah, you can’t argue with the numbers he uses. Vader is a 50 or 80 and Kanan is in the 3-5 range. Assuming we go by your logic of Kanan overcoming his fear and being equal to or more powerful than the Grand Inquisitor, there is a massive gap between the two.
The rest of this is fine, I don’t wish to argue familiarity in styles, just had to touch on that part.
Grevious Stomping Depa:
As for the aforementioned circumstances:
Surviving explosions and blowing droids away is not something that hinders Jedi in duels, we see this all the time during the clone wars. It is un-quantifiable how much they would hinder her in this fight.
Cheth wrote:Quickly into the fight, Depa manages to cut off two of Grievous’s hands in one blow, which he counters with a cut to her back.
So she overextended and Grevious took advantage, is this not something that could come into play against a fighter as reserved and defensive as Vader?
Regardless the only real headway she makes against Grevious is due to a revised style and unpredictable nature as she points out here:
He responds with:
That’s when she lands the strike that takes his two hands, he thought he was fighting the old Depa (that he beat for the record) and the new one surprised him. This is more a testament to Grevious’s adaptability than anything.
Cheth wrote:Yet she kept dueling until the fight was interrupted, also showing that she’s also able to take a hit.
She was fighting defensively, but one of her main forms is soresu, a form designed for defensive combat and exposing enemy weaknesses, so it's hardly evidence against her. The fact that she under these circumstances and her injury still managed to stalemate Grievous at least suggests parity, and that she managed to cut off two of his hands so quickly shows she should be more than capable of winning.
Sure, she “took the hit” though she’s not as fine as you imply:
The first break in Grevious’s assault has her drop to her knees clearly wounded or exhausted.
Karbin vs Vader
Cheth wrote:Karbin’s cybernetics are supposed to be somewhat superior to Grievous’, which seems to mostly be due to a jetpack for increased mobility. But this is at the very least cancelled out by Grievous having more experience fighting forceusers, more experience/skill as a warrior (Grievous always was a fighter, Karbin only started training after getting his enhancements, which both was during a timespan of two years), and having been trained by Dooku, not by a scientist. Infact Grievous’ experience is attributed as one of the main reasons he was so deadly:
Force and Destiny wrote:
“Drawing from his lifetime of experience and with the advantages offered by his mechanical body, Grievous slew numerous Jedi, collecting their lightsabers as trophies”
Cheth wrote:I’d probably consider Grievous superior to Karbin due to these factors, but even him being equal is enough.
Well, Karbin has been training to replace Vader himself for two years along with a slew of other mechanical experiments:
Grevious has approximately 3 years of killing jedi under his belt, which is what owes to his experience, but he’s also being hindered from being too much of a threat to Dooku or Sidious. Karbin is literally being trained to be the next Vader, and if he were to kill Vader at that moment, Sidious would take him as his new imperial enforcer, so this experience gap is negligible if non-existent. Also, Cylo states above that Karbin is “the next step” of Grevious, that doesn’t mean he’s got a jetpack so he is more maneuverable. He's saying Karbin is an improved design of Grevious.
Cheth wrote:Now to Karbin vs Vader:
When the fight starts, Karbin says “One saber against four. Admit it, Vader. You are outmatched.” Referring to Vader having no chance in dueling. Instead of disagreeing or proving him wrong, Vader collapses a statue on Karbin and cuts off one of his arms while he’s down, claiming “When you wield the power of the dark side. One lightsaber is all you need.” So Vader doesn’t fight using skill against Karbin, rather opting to the force.
First of all, the idea that Vader abusing the force against a non-force sensitive somehow translates to him accepting inferiority is laughable. Secondly, Vader isn’t exactly in the right state to duel with Karbin for a little while, so he tries to end the fight as quickly as possible. Let’s break this fight down:
If you know anything about the 2015 series you know Vader is obsessed with finding Luke and he clearly doesn’t want Karbin to claim his prize, which leads to the fight:
First thing is first, Vader and Karbin clash blades and the duel is then interrupted by the simultaneous wookie fight and the activities of Luke and the Droids. Off panel they are clearly fighting, for several minutes. It is when we return that the scene you describe takes place:
While Karbin boasts Vader takes the opportunity to crush him under the rubble. Karbin runs into the nearby caves to which Vader pursues. He then talks about how he won’t die here today, that he has faced greater challenges than Karbin and nothing will stop him, he clearly does not acknowledge inferiority like you imply. Note too, the cavern Karbin retreats into the cavern and the fight pauses:
Vader gets distracted by visions of his past and doesn’t notice Karbin behind him allowing Karbin to land a blow (similar to Depa and Grevious ironically enough) the two resume dueling until the fight is cut off by the wookie brawl again:
We only get another glimpse of the fight in this issue where it is revealed they have moved out of the cavern back onto a field:
Darth Vader #15 opens with a clash between Karbin and Vader:
Which leads into these sparse shots of the duel:
In the scan above Vader clearly appears to drive back and overpower Karbin while casually holding a conversation with Aphra, leading to another cut to focus on the wookies, to the final segment you posted earlier:
Finally in issue #20 of Darth Vader we have the Dark Lord say this about Karbin:
So to sum up:
- 90 percent of the fight was dueling in sabers
- Vader used the force a total of two times during a fight that lasted over 2 issues
- Vader doesn’t even consider Karbin a fight worthy of his time.
We cannot extrapolate any parity from Vader and Karbin considering all of these factors.
To sum up
- Cheth wrote:
Depa is > Grievous
How is she > Grievous when he landed a hit on her? You can argue equality at best, but > is more than a stretch.
- Cheth wrote:Grievous is >= Karbin
Karbin is the next step in Grevious’s design per his creator and has spent 2 years trying to be worthy enough to replace Darth Vader.
- Cheth wrote:Karbin is > Vader in terms of dueling
Vader held his own against Karbin for the entire fight, and if you count injury Vader was actually in a worse circumstance than Karbin and still came out on-top
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 19th 2020, 12:39 am
Great post
- Underachiever599
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
April 20th 2020, 6:09 pm
Solid post
- MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Depa Billaba (Cheth) vs Darth Vader (ISV)
June 17th 2020, 10:48 am
ISV is officially the victor for this round, as Cheth has exceeded all time extensions. Congratulations!
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