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Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Empty Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)

March 17th 2022, 9:38 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Jaden_10

-Jaden Korr as of Fate of the Jedi (FatedXtasy)
-Kam Solusar as of Fate of the Jedi (Chris Cortosis/rng)


Rules:

-3 posts per side
-No character limit
-1 month in between posts

Fated Xtasy
Fated Xtasy

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Empty Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)

March 17th 2022, 10:38 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
In the immortal words of Jaden Korr circa Jedi Academy.

"You cannot beat a Jedi!"

Expect my response within the week. Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 228124001
Fated Xtasy
Fated Xtasy

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Empty Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)

March 27th 2022, 12:58 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
There be dragons.
To start Korr is one of the leading Jedi in Luke's second generation of students. As a Jedi Jaden led the assault against the Disciples of Ragnos and the Imperial Remnant that bolstered their forces. Later, Korr was tested when he took on the Jedi-Sith Clone community, and he was tested even further when he came face to face with Ancient Rakatan Entity, Mother. Throughout his career, Jaden amassed a wealth of experience fighting against Dark Siders and Ancient Entities becoming one of the many decorated heroes among Luke's Jedi Order.

Lightsaber Prowess: A Juggernaught's Bane VS The Swordmaster



At first glance, Jaden may be less knowledgable in lightsaber combat, to a degree, than Kam Solusar, however, to think must be noted before we continue.
  • Jaden's master was Solusar's successor, Katarn, who had trained under Qu Rahn, the ghosts of Ruusan, defeated more classically trained foes like Sariss, then later re-trained rather quickly as a Jedi and bested Desann(who dueled Skywalker twice). It's not far-fetched to say that Katarn's knowledge and experience outweighed Solusar's own.


  • Jaden's force abilities and lightsaber skills go hand in hand, he relies on the Force consistently in combat in the same vein as Revan, albeit to a lesser degree. Thus, going forward assume that Korr will be consistently utilizing the Force mid-combat.

While the merits of the Master don't benefit the Apprentice, the overall knowledge of the Master does. Meaning quotes like this:
Jedi Academy: Kyle Katarn wrote: “As you train you’ll learn additional fighting styles, changing styles during combat can surprise your opponent allowing you to get the upper hand.”

Lend credibility to the belief that Jaden was trained in multiple styles of combat by an objectively more knowledgable Battlemaster than Solusar. Moreover, this ties into Jaden's Revan-esque use of the Force during Combat as Katarn teaches his apprentice to improvise in the middle of combat, which Korr seems to do throughout Crosscurrent and Riptide. Which is doubtlessly carried over from Korr's experience during the Ragnos Crisis.

Korr confronted many members of the Imperial Remnant and Cultist, but his first test came in the form of Alora, who fought furiously on the planet of Hoth.

—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide. wrote:When you meet Alora, she’s Tavion’s most prized apprentice, though still rather inexperienced. She uses a single lightsaber and has basic acrobatic abilities and medium-level Force Powers…..”

—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:In a heated battle, Korr defeated Alora to in order escape Hoth and report on his mission.

His defeat of Alora garners him the praise of Skywalker.

Jedi Academy: Luke Skywalker wrote:"Kyle's right, there still missions for you to undertake, and we can't neglect the training of one of our most promising students."

Once again, Korr goes on a plethora of missions, on one occasion he earns high praise from veteran Wedge Antilles, who states that even in private Luke holds Jaden in high esteem.
―Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (Wedge Antilles) wrote:"Thanks For the Assistance, Jaden. Luke tells me you're going to be a great Jedi."
―Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (Wedge Antilles after their mission.) wrote:"Great work, Jaden. Luke was right about you!"

Once again, Korr encounters Imperials, Mercenaries, and Cultists before heading to his next test, Vjun.

Here Korr is challenged by a score of Imperial Forces and Cultist before he and Katarn are eventually separated, leaving Korr to take on the remaining Reborn+Cultist before eventually
Korr confronts Rosh Penin along with the Kothos Twins. Though we don't have a character limit, I dislike walls of text so please reference the following linkfor an overview of Kothos Twins)

In short, the Twins are stated to be faster than Korr, have a variety of abilities in their arsenal all while they continue to empower and heal Rosh. In essence, Korr is dealing with the immediate threat of Rosh in melee combat, while the twins pepper Korr with their many dark side abilities. Yet despite all this, Jaden is able to best the Twins(masters of evasion) and defeat, disarm and floor Rosh Penin.
Jaden vs Three Dark Jedi:

The act of besting the three Dark Jedi earns Korr high praise and a new rank within the order.
Jedi Academy: Luke Skywalker wrote:"Jaden you handled yourself exceptionally well on Vjun. To confront three dark Jedi and defeat them took bravery and skill. for your efforts, I feel you are ready to join our ranks as a Jedi Knight."

as before, Korr takes on several missions wherein he encounters many more Reborn, Cultists, Mercenaries, and Imperial forces. In one instance, the Jedi Knight child takes on Boba Fett while attempting to destroy weapon caches on Ord Mantell. After an extensive battle, Korr manages to bring the bounty hunter to his knees...
Jaden Vs Boba Fett:

After this, Korr goes on to Taspir III where he neutralizes the Imperial Forces and eventually duels Alora a second, and final time.

—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide. wrote:“When you again cross paths with Alora, she’s trained furiously to avenger her earlier defeat. She now uses two single lightsaber and is extremely deadly with them, having developed some unique combat moves that are exclusive to her. She also uses new Force Powers as well.”

Despite being afforded the advantage of having Korr fight against many Cultists and Reborn prior to engaging Alora, Jaden bests her and immediately leaves for Korriban wherein he spearheads the assault on Korriban and defeats both Axmis as well as Ragnos. In the interest of time please see the following link

As an apprentice, Axmis was already a threat to Katarn.

Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast: Perfect Guide wrote:“Tavion is no stranger to wielding a Lightsaber. Although her skills aren’t as finely polished as those of a Shadow Trooper or Reborn Boss(Master), she’s still a force to be reckoned with.”
Years later, she's no doubt grown in power, given her capacity to incapacitate both Katarn and Korr, additionally, she sends her nemesis Katarn flying back with a blast.
TK & Force Lightning :

Tavion can also move the ground itself
Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima's Official Strategy Guide. wrote:"Or, her hand will glow purple, and she will create an earthquake move."

From this, we can infer that Tavion had grown substantially in power, with the scepter she becomes far more lethal.

Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima's Official Strategy Guide. wrote:Tavion wields both a single lightsaber, and the Staff of Ragnos, making her a lethal threat

Korr was in a circumstance where Tavion should have easily bested him, but instead, the opposite occurred, tavion was disarmed, floored, and could barely stand after their battle.

Force Prowess: Telekinetic Fury VS Standard Applications
I don't mean to sound... dismissive of Solusar's Force abilities but all I know is he through a rock once on Yavin and that's all I remember. Please educate me!

As mentioned before, Jaden's combative MO is to utilize the Force in tandem with his Lightsaber that said I want to highlight just how powerful his TK is.

From being able to bring down pillars and boulders at a young age.
Pillars/Boulders:

To knocking down the more Telekinetic astute of the clones
―Star Wars: Riptide wrote:"The clone’s wild, bloodshot eyes widened when he saw Jaden. Jaden took advantage of the clone’s surprise. He drew on the Force, extended a hand, and struck the clone with a blast of concussive energy so strong it blew the clone back down the stairs and drove him into the floor. The clone lay there, dazed."
Meeting his own clone(the prime of the Sith-Jedi Community) in a standstill
―Star Wars: Riptide wrote:"The clone snarled, held up a hand, palm outward, and met Jaden’s blast with his own. Power pressed against power and Jaden and the clone eyed each other across the landing, jaws fixed, eyes locked, neither gaining the advantage."
Holding back the combined strength of his equal, and his lesser, only to bested when the Lumiya-clone interfered.

Jaden vs Soldier, Runner and Seer:

To finally being able to knock an Ancient Entity back, as well as breaking her hold on him.

―Star Wars: Riptide wrote:Jaden fell fully into the Force, gestured with outstretched arms and two flattened palms at Mother, and unleashed a blast of power. The energy struck her full in the side, blowing her a meter sidewise and causing her to release Marr, who fell to the floor"

―Star Wars: Riptide wrote:"Despite his pain, he drew on the Force and let power explode outward from him. It freed him from her grasp and he flipped as he fell. He hit the floor on his feet, crouched, and exploded into a leap toward her, his lightsaber held high."

Jaden's telekinetic abilities are something Kam will have to find an answer to quickly, given that Jaden favors their uses in almost every scenario. To my knowledge, Solusar has no feats beyond the boulder throw? If not I look forward to being corrected.

To summarize, Jaden's lightsaber abilities are nothing to scoff at, and when combined with the Force, he is a lethal opponent. Kam's advantage with the lightsaber is minimal at best and negligible at worse. Kam's combative applications of the force seem rather abysmal in comparison to a Force titan of Jaden's level. Solusar will have his pick of whether he wants to get up close and risk being TK'ed or stay at a distance that favors Korr.

It's your move, rng.
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Empty Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)

April 3rd 2022, 2:23 am
I'll start off with responding to some of your points, then I'll move on to my own opener.


Responses:

There really isn't much to this category. Just a couple notes I had to your points.


Fated Xtasy wrote:As an apprentice, Axmis was already a threat to Katarn.
--
“Tavion is no stranger to wielding a Lightsaber. Although her skills aren’t as finely polished as those of a Shadow Trooper or Reborn Boss(Master), she’s still a force to be reckoned with.”
Do you really wanna be sending a quote that says "she's not as skilled as other enemies you face" when trying to hype her up?


Fated Xtasy wrote:To summarize, Jaden's lightsaber abilities are nothing to scoff at, and when combined with the Force, he is a lethal opponent. Kam's advantage with the lightsaber is minimal at best and negligible at worse. Kam's combative applications of the force seem rather abysmal in comparison to a Force titan of Jaden's level. Solusar will have his pick of whether he wants to get up close and risk being TK'ed or stay at a distance that favors Korr.
Thankfully either will end favorably for the older master as will soon be clear.

To be honest, you could have gone a lot harder with some these points. But the best is yet to come I'm sure.

Anyway, with that out of the way, time for my opener:


The Forgotten Chad


Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Image_5


At first glance, due to Solusar's extremely limited showings and appearances, it might appear he's not all that noteworthy. But as I'll demonstrate, Solusar's feats + veteran status in the order + accolades all outstrip what Jaden can offer.


Accolades:



To start off with, Solusar's onetime status as Battlemaster means at one point he was the best swordsman in the order bar Luke.

Battlemaster:

As you've correctly pointed out, Kam was eventually replaced by Kyle Katarn. However all we know is that it happened some time between 12 and 19 ABY. So it's possible Katarn took up the position post 14 ABY. After Korr's apprenticeship to him.

However, all that's unimportant, since as you've already pointed out, the merits of the master don't have to extend to the apprentice. Bottom line is, Solusar's already super high up in the order when it comes to dueling skill.


Kam was also a Jedi Master for far longer. And he ascended to the rank far faster than Jaden. And of course, as we know, masters are generally the best of the order. On top of that, Kam was also a member of the High Council. He was among the best of the best.

Master:

Korr on the other hand refused the rank due to his lack of confidence in ability:

Refusal:

While this isn't exactly the worst look for Jaden, the fact is that Kam was among the best of the Order. Jaden on the other hand is doubtful in his abilities to become a mere master until late into his career.


Now lets look into one of Kam's better feats:


Fight with Luke



In the Dark Empire 2 Audio Drama, Kam Solusar fought Luke Skywalker. Who is a complete beast in his own right.


A couple things to note:

-Luke definitely won the duel.
-Luke was not trying to kill Kam. If he wanted to, he could easily make heads roll. So clearly he was holding back a little.

However even with those above conditions, Solusar's performance is insane. Both he and Luke are grunting with effort and are actually getting tired. Luke even acknowledges that Kam may kill him when he says "If you kill me, I will gain powers beyond your imagination."

The duel lasts for a little over a minute. While that may not sound like a big deal, generally, lightsaber duels only last about a minute at most. So Kam's fight was rather protracted.

Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting:particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru.

-Dynasty of Evil


Now you may be thinking "But Luke was holding back. He's garbo when he holds back"

Naturally, Luke isn't as potent when he's holding back. Obviously. But as we see in the below examples, holding back does not equate to being trash:

Yoda styles all over three great masters of the PT era. All without moving a meter

Yoda:

A depressed Luke Skywalker was able to casually dance around Cilghal and Kyp. In the middle of a conversation:

LOTF:

In both of these examples, both Luke and Yoda, in casual spars, whilst holding back, are able to style all over their opponents. The fact that both Luke and Kam were exhausted from their duel shows that Kam was capable of pressing DE Luke. Even if he lost, that is a higher feat than most can achieve.

I won't attempt to scale Kam above or near DE Luke, as that's just an absurd notion by any metric. But Solusar was able to give Luke a good fight. That in and of itself is far greater than almost anything Jaden has shown.


And of course, this is all from a complete noob Kam with only basic training. After this duel, Kam grows greatly. As evidenced by Luke saying "I give you the power that is already yours-- the power of the Jedi!"


Shortly after the above growth, Kam and Luke fight and defeat "impossible odds" of specially trained, elite, Dark Side amped Stormtroopers.

Impossible Odds:

After that fight, a tired Solusar is able to easily oneshot his former master, Vill Goir.

Oneshot:

While it's important to note that this is partially because Solusar is familiar with Goir's moves, the same is true in reverse, given that Goir was Kam's master.


As we see, even a noob Kam is out-doing Jaden in the feats department. And Kam obviously grows far more in the decades following this.


Lets move onto the most important and direct comparison between Kam and Jaden:


Alpha



Alpha was a mad clone of Master Solusar. Before we delve into Jaden's fight with Alpha, let's first tie him to Kam.

We have precedence for clones of force users being at least on the level of their template. As we see with Joruus C'Baoth:

Joruus:


(Luuke too given his performance against Luke)


Alpha was grown in a Spaarti cylinder just like Joruus was.

A hole opened in the center of the room, a perfect circle several meters in diameter, like the gullet of some gargantuan beast. Machinery hung from armatures above the hole. Jaden recognized the apparatus immediately—a Spaarti cloning cylinder.

-Crosscurrent


There is one way these clones differed from the likes of C'Baoth:

Spoiler:

They were bred with Jedi and Sith DNA. In hopes of creating a force user that transcends the limits of light and dark. We know the attempt was more or less a complete failure due to the almost complete dark sided nature of the clones. As well as Jaden's own description:

Making contact almost instantly, he winced at the bitter recoil caused by the touch of a dark sider—but not a pure dark sider. Jaden felt the dark side as though it were adulterated with... something else, the same way his own signature was that of a light-side user adulterated with... something else.

-Crosscurrent

What's all this mean? Simply that there is nothing that puts Alpha far above Kam. Why? Well we know Alpha is almost completely a dark sider. So there goes the breakthrough Force user thing. And as I pointed out above, we've had cases like Joruus and Luuke where clones were close to if not equal to their templates.

As such, we can safely say Alpha>~Kam or Kam>~Alpha in the Force


Now unfortunately for Jaden, he did not perform so well against Kam's evil half:

Alpha Fight:


Now a couple things to note about the circumstances behind this fight:

1: Jaden was suffering from PTSD in Crosscurrent. Clearly he wasn't at 100%.
2: Alpha was physically stronger than Kam:

Physically Stronger:


However, even with these two factors, Solusar is still favored far more.

While Jaden is weaker in Crosscurrent, we can't really quantify just how much weaker he is. An earlier line in the book refers to his sensitivity as benighted:

Benighted:

Problem is, this is in a Force vision he had. So we can't really apply it to his power level in the book. So realistically, he can't be weakened to a vast degree.

As for Alpha's physical strength supremacy over Kam, Jaden himself in the next book notes that force power is more important than physical strength in lightsaber combat. So Alpha's advantage in this field is rather negligible:

"Now I'll teach you some basics of lightsaber combat. As before, feel the Force throughout. Very little about this is physical. Your strength and speed is not in muscle and tendon, but in your relationship to the Force. Let it flow through you, inform your movements. What you're capable of will surprise you, if you let it."

-Riptide


So that leaves us with:

Jaden Korr > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar


Looks pretty close, huh? While Kam scales above, Jaden still has a shot, right? No

Guess what Solusar has that Alpha doesn't have? Decades of Marial Arts training and experience. (both in the battlefield and in spars against master duelists of the order.)
Simply put, a fight between Jaden and Solusar would go much like Jaden's fight with Alpha. But the existing gap grows. Whereas once, all Jaden had to deal with was raw power, now he has to deal with that AND far, far, far more finesse and skill.


Conclusions:



-Kam's accolades are far more impressive than Jaden's.
-Kam has arguably better feats.
-Jaden's struggle against Alpha supports the notion of Kam's supremacy. And even if peak Jaden could take Alpha, it still wouldn't save him from Kam's superior skill.


That concludes my post. Expect more on Solusar's skills, powers, etc in my next post.


Best of luck with your response. Looking forward to it. The stage is yours.
hellothere5432
hellothere5432

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Empty Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)

April 23rd 2022, 10:54 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Good opener.
Fated Xtasy
Fated Xtasy

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Empty Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)

May 2nd 2022, 12:26 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Time for some Mass Destruction
Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) ?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20080811195941%2Fmegamitensei%2Fimages%2F4%2F4e%2FMCP3Close


Chris Cortosis wrote:
Do you really wanna be sending a quote that says "she's not as skilled as other enemies you face" when trying to hype her up?
You're missing the point, she's still a force to be reckoned with, and she's an apprentice at this stage in her life. Do try to keep up, darlin'.
Thankfully either will end favorably for the older master as will soon be clear.
The cruelest thing of all is false hope, Chris.

To be honest, you could have gone a lot harder with some these points. But the best is yet to come I'm sure.
Praise and constructive critique? you’re sweet! Flattery won’t win you this debate, but it might win you a special consolation prize if you play your cards right.

At first glance, due to Solusar's extremely limited showings and appearances, it might appear he's not all that noteworthy. But as I'll demonstrate, Solusar's feats + veteran status in the order + accolades all outstrip what Jaden can offer.
If that were the case we wouldn't be having this debate. Let me show you just how the ancients did it back in the golden age. Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 2265358366


To start off with, Solusar's onetime status as Battlemaster means at one point he was the best swordsman in the order bar Luke.
That’s certainly a stretch. But I can’t wait to see you workyourwayoutofthisone educate me on the subject matter Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 228124001
As you've correctly pointed out, Kam was eventually replaced by Kyle Katarn. However all we know is that it happened some time between 12 and 19 ABY. So it's possible Katarn took up the position post 14 ABY. After Korr's apprenticeship to him.
Nope, Katarn became Battlemaster between 12ABY and 13ABY
The Dark Forces Saga wrote:Kyle again went rogue, working loosely with Jan on unofficial New Republic missions. Nearly eight years after Kyle defeated Jerec on Ruusan, the valley was threatened once again, this time by a former student of Master Skywalker called Desann, forcing Kyle to work alongside Luke to protect the galaxy. After defeating the Dark Jedi, Kyle returned to the Jedi academy with renewed confidence.
Kyle became the academy's foremost battlemaster, honing the skills of countless Jedi students like Jaden Korr, and stopping the dark side berserker Jeng Droga
Kyle's simply better!

However, all that's unimportant, since as you've already pointed out, the merits of the master don't have to extend to the apprentice.
Right, but the knowledge they impart does, which you didn't refute, so I'm assuming that we're in agreement there.


Bottom line is, Solusar's already super high up in the order when it comes to dueling skill.
I look forward to seeing you prove this Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 228124001
Kam was also a Jedi Master for far longer. And he ascended to the rank far faster than Jaden. And of course, as we know, masters are generally the best of the order. On top of that, Kam was also a member of the High Council. He was among the best of the best.
Comparatively speaking, Korr ascended the ranks faster than Solusar. Jaden went from an initiate to an apprentice, to a Knight in a span of a year. Meaning that Korr was a Jedi Knight at the age of 13-14 which is an impressive feat for one so young, don’t you think?

By contrast, Solusar was trained as a Jedi Knight by Ranik Solusar and later as a DS adept by Vil Goir nevertheless Solusar was considered a trainee by Luke in spite of all of Kam’s training.

Moreover, those quotes regarding Jedi Masters are a generalization that could likewise be applied to Korr at the end of his career. You have my thanks!


Korr on the other hand refused the rank due to his lack of confidence in ability:
Read that again, please. “HIS” lack of confidence in HIS ability. Clearly, Skywalker, Katarn, and the rest of the Council thought highly of his skills. This is supported by Kyp Durron— a contemporary of Solusar—who states the following;
Jaden impresses Duron:
Additionally, Korr is praised by Luke as one of the Academy’s most promising students
A Promising Trainee:
Luke considers Korr a great addition to the Jedi Order.
Valuable Knight:
Clearly,  Korr declined out of humility and lack of confidence in his ability as opposed to the Council+Luke feeling he was not ready ala Mace and Anakin style.


While this isn't exactly the worst look for Jaden, the fact is that Kam was among the best of the Order. Jaden on the other hand is doubtful in his abilities to become a mere master until late into his career.

And Jaina states she believes there are knights and masters more powerful than her yet she becomes the sword of the Jedi, Anakin Solo is doubtful of his abilities as a Jedi yet he’s dubbed the next Luke Skywalker, The Emperor’s Wrath believes they might die facing Baras yet the Dark Council ultimately bows to their unquestionable might after the Wrath kills the old Darth. As I stated above, Jaden refused the rank of Master, but as far as Luke, Katarn, and the Council were concerned Jaden was ready.


A couple things to note:

-Luke definitely won the duel.
-Luke was not trying to kill Kam. If he wanted to, he could easily make heads roll. So clearly he was holding back a little.
I appreciate the concession.
However even with those above conditions, Solusar's performance is insane. Both he and Luke are grunting with effort and are actually getting tired. Luke even acknowledges that Kam may kill him when he says "If you kill me, I will gain powers beyond your imagination."
Solusar also acknowledges that Luke could best him at the very beginning? If that was all that was exchanged between them I’d be happy to concede that the quote indicates that the battle is close, but unfortunately Luke goes on to say that Kam‘s dark side powers are “nothing” to him almost immediately after. So his performance isn’t as insane as you make it out to be. I’ll expand on this thought later.


The duel lasts for a little over a minute. While that may not sound like a big deal, generally, lightsaber duels only last about a minute at most. So Kam's fight was rather protracted.
If you want to talk about protracted, then look no further than Korr having to fight his way through Taspir III where he fights a tremendous amount of Reborn/Cultists

Ambush! :

Reborn defeated:

Reborn destroyed:

The Reborn are resistant to most Force Powers:
Resistant Reborn:
They are similarly extensively trained in combat.

Versatile Reborn:
Cultists may not be as heavily trained as Reborn, yet they’re noted to be advanced duelists and have mastered different aspects of the Force.

Advanced Duelists:

Selective Force Mastery:

Korr was destroying Reborn and Cultists by the handful. Even with the advantage of throwing Dark Jedi at Korr, Alora still couldn't beat him on Taspi, and in fact, Korr seemingly destroys her.

Jaden V Alora: Is Jaden taxed?:
The inference here is that Jaden's still able to best her without resorting to any special tactics. While what I've highlighted in red could indicate that he's losing, it's worth noting the following text.
Jaden Vs Alora: Jaden wins solidly:

The text indicates that Jaden destroys Alora which implies that Korr bested her pretty solidly, which is impressive given the series of Reborn, Cultists and Stormtroopers he was facing prior to this confrontation. . So while I’m not all comparing the Reborn/Alora to Luke, I will say that the sheer amount of opponents that Korr had to face simultaneously and consecutively—by himself I might add—showcases that’s he’s beyond the likes of Solusar.

However, I’d like to finally touch on my previous comment wherein I mention Solusar’s control and inexperience. Here, Luke states that while Kam is skilled he’s objectively inexperienced.
Post DE Kam lacks Experience:

While this could be dismissed as a one-off statement, it’s later reinforced in the Jedi Academy novel wherein the following is said:

Post DE Kam progresses Slowly:

“The most progress.” For all his skill the Jedi “Knight” seems to fall short in comparison to a mere trainee, this seems to tie together with Luke’s thoughts on Solusar being inexperienced.

Moreover, we have Kam himself admitting he lacks the control necessary to duel someone like Corran
Post DE Kam lacks Control:

Even if I grant you that Solusar status as the acting instructor is emblematic of Kam’s overall combative ability, there’s still the matter of his lack of control, inexperience, and more importantly, Luke’s dismissive attitude towards Solusar


Now you may be thinking "But Luke was holding back. He's garbo when he holds back"
You’ve already admitted that Skywalker was holding back, But I really want to highlight how the usual “everyone is stronger than me” Luke Skywalker rhetoric is completely thrown out the window when Luke states that Solusar is “nothing” to him. Meaning that Skywalker is—for once—adamant in his belief that someone cannot defeat him which is a rare moment for Luke. Which is to say, that Solusar wasn’t matching Luke by any stretch of the imagination.

Naturally, Luke isn't as potent when he's holding back. Obviously. But as we see in the below examples, holding back does not equate to being trash:
Right, but the showing is indicative of Luke/Yoda’s mastery and their apprentice’s lack thereof. Ergo, the feat benefits Skywalker/Yoda, but not their opponents.

In both of these examples, both Luke and Yoda, in casual spars, whilst holding back, are able to style all over their opponents.
As I said, that’s not an indication of Kam’s abilities. If Luke held back, then it would be LUKE who would have to make sure that HE doesn’t hurt Kam, and that Kam doesn’t hurt him.

The fact that both Luke and Kam were exhausted from their duel shows that Kam was capable of pressing DE Luke. Even if he lost, that is a higher feat than most can achieve.

If you’re holding back and not trying to kill someone who is definitely trying to kill you the probability of exhaustion would be high, yes. However, Luke held back per your concession and still managed to tax Solusar who was giving it his all just to keep up with Luke.

I won't attempt to scale Kam above or near DE Luke, as that's just an absurd notion by any metric. But Solusar was able to give Luke a good fight. That in and of itself is far greater than almost anything Jaden has shown.

Indulge me a moment and review what’s been presented, will you?

  • Luke firmly believes Kam’s Dark Side powers are “nothing.”

  • Kam admits to Corran that he lacks the control to spar with him, thus his base skill set is called into question”

  • Luke states that Kam is “gifted” but similarly “inexperienced”

  • Solusar is outshined by the neophyte Gantoris in terms of “progress.”

  • Luke could have made heads roll, but he chose to hold back.



Put this together and what we have left is that Kam's inexperienced, uncontrolled, and underdeveloped dark side abilities are nothing to a Luke Skywalker who is holding back in hopes of redeeming Solusar. Simply put, the performance isn’t as impressive as you’re attempting to make it seem.

Jaden however was impressive from the get-go. He was one of the academy's most promising students, he was constantly praised by Luke/Katarn, and was held in high esteem by veterans like Chewbacca and Wedge early in his career.


And of course, this is all from a complete noob Kam with only basic training. After this duel, Kam grows greatly. As evidenced by Luke saying "I give you the power that is already yours-- the power of the Jedi!"

Right, that did in fact happen, but Luke later states Kam isn’t as seasoned, Kam admits that he lacks self-control, and he progresses slower than a neophyte. So while I can appreciate your attempt to make this appear as though he’s grown in power, I'd go ahead and call this hyperbole as it’s more of an indication that Kam has been redeemed as opposed to having grown exponentially.


Shortly after the above growth, Kam and Luke fight and defeat "impossible odds" of specially trained, elite, Dark Side amped Stormtroopers.
Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 1220391476
You know as well as I that the Ysanna were also fighting against the Dark Troopers.

Ysanna vs Dark Troopers:
Moreover, two of the Force-sensitive were also aiding them and taking on the Dark-Troopers

Force Sensitives fight Valiantly:

That said, regarding impossible odds just look at Trainee Jaden was clearinghouse on Hoth.

A Fierce Battle on Hoth:

Alora states Jaden destroyed her Forces.

Alora's Guard:

As an apprentice, Jaden was carving through Bast Castle

Jedi Child Vs Dark Jedi:

After all this Jaden enters Vader’s training area and completes his training regiment.

Jaden Vs Vader....'s training regiment:

Which Jaden “destroys” Vader's training regiment

Regiment destroyed:
I could legitimately keep going and this on the planet Vjun alone.. Jaden’s just as capable of dealing with 1-10 odds. If not more so.

After that fight, a tired Solusar is able to easily oneshot his former master, Vill Goir.
Remind me again, is Vil Goir sub Cultist?  Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 4037459623

As we see, even a noob Kam is out-doing Jaden in the feats department.

No, he isn’t. Kam’s fight against Luke is something even younglings could replicate if we factor in Kam’s inexperience, lack of control, underdeveloped abilities, and Luke having to hold back. This isn’t something beyond Jaden as of 14ABY, let alone peak Jaden.

Beating Dark Troopers with the assistance of the Theysanna is likewise not beyond Jaden as we’ve seen him literally take on hordes of Stormtroopers, Cultists, Mercs, and Reborn. Kam’s not outdoing anyone here.


And Kam obviously grows far more in the decades following this.
Please elaborate on his growth.

We have precedence for clones of force users being at least on the level of their template. As we see with Joruus C'Baoth:

Right, the clones of Luke and C’baoth may be, but recall that C’baoth’s clone was created from just C’baoth DNA as opposed to being combined with Jedi/Sith DNA. While in C’baoth’s case the Clone is as powerful as the original, in this case, we’re dealing with the unquantifiable factor of additional DNA making up the Sith-Jedi Clones. Unfortunately for you, the variable in this equation was already been accounted for by yours truly Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 2960029119
I'll elaborate on this later.



They were bred with Jedi and Sith DNA. In hopes of creating a force user that transcends the limits of light and dark. We know the attempt was more or less a complete failure due to the almost complete dark sided nature of the clones. As well as Jaden's own description:

That’s just straight-up false bro. The fact of the matter is that the clone community is made up of the DNA of several different Force users composed of Lumiya, Mara Jade, Kyle, and Jaden himself. While you can say that the experiment was a failure, the clones are still spliced with the DNA differing from the originals hence their potential is stated to have grown at an alarming rate.

Clone's Mastery:

Midi-chlorian Count:

They mastered their basic ability and some advanced abilities. Jaden, the alleged genetic template, built a lightsaber with no knowledge of how to do so and had to go to the Academy to Master his abilities. Solusar, similarly, had to undergo training a total of three times in order to achieve mastery of his abilities as well.  These clones had a high midi-chlorian count and were exhibiting mastery over the Force with no training. That doesn’t sound like a failure to me


What's all this mean? Simply that there is nothing that puts Alpha far above Kam.
You’re wrong though, the quotes above objectively state that the Clones mastered their abilities and have a tremendous amount of potential. Furthermore, the Clones are stated to continue to grow in power as time passes by

Growing Power:
They mastered their abilities early in their lives, displayed a tremendous amount of power, and still, continued to become stronger. That alone gives us a clear indication that the clones—or in this case Alpha—are stronger than their templates.

quote]Why? Well we know Alpha is almost completely a dark sider. So there goes the breakthrough Force user thing. And as I pointed out above, we've had cases like Joruus and Luuke where clones were close to if not equal to their templates. [/quote]

If the clones were simply created from the genetic material of their templates I’d be inclined to agree with that, unfortunately, they’re confirmed to have spliced with Jedi and Sith genes.
Born of Sith & Jedi:

So if the clones are equal to their donors as has been stated, then the addition of Sith/Jedi genes would make them stronger than their counterparts.
As I’ve said before, the Clones impressed the scientists, achieved several levels of mastery and continued to grow in power this all puts Alpha above Kam Solusar as he possesses all the strength of the genetic template and then some. This isn’t detrimental to Jaden however as we see that though he’s bested by Alpha, the cards are stacked against him as his connection to the Force is muddied, and while you’re welcome to disagree, the reality is that Korr goes from losing to Alpha to stalemating his own Clone in a brief duel and holding back a pair of Clones.


As such, we can safely say Alpha>~Kam or Kam>~Alpha in the Force

Not in this multiverse, bud. If I have to adhere to a chain it would be more like this:
Peak!Jaden=Soldier>The Entire Clones. Soldier is consistently stated to be the greatest of the clones by three different sources.
The first being the Omniscient Narrator and it's further reinforced by the statement of "They knew it, and he knew it."
Soldier was the best:
.
Seer, the Community Leader acknowledges his superiority over them.

Seer admits inferiority:

and lastly, the One Sith and their agents refer to Soldier as the Prime.

The One Sith and their Agents:

So we have precedence for Soldier>Clones.

Now here, we see Jaden is able to match his clone in almost every aspect

Jaden vs Jaden:

Thus we can safely establish that Korr is similarly as Powerful as Soldier (if not more so) and is consequently >The Clones, including Alpha. Since the clones are stated to be extremely powerful, we could say Alpha>Solusar or Clones>Genetic Templates just for funsies. But let's say I—hypothetically—concede this point and agree that Solusar and his clone are equals. The Jaden clone is still the best of the clones, Jaden still stalemates Soldier, and the chain remains mostly the same. Jaden=Soldier>Alpha>~Kam

Take your pick!


Now unfortunately for Jaden, he did not perform so well against Kam's evil half:

Due to a benighted force sensitivity, which you yourself have stated is the most important aspect of a duelist. Therefore if his connection is damaged, then his performance would also take a hit. Not to mention the vast difference in Jaden's performances in Riptide V Crosscurrent.

1: Jaden was suffering from PTSD in Crosscurrent. Clearly he wasn't at 100%.

I agree, your concession is accepted.

2: Alpha was physically stronger than Kam:

Indeed! And is similarly stronger in the Force per the above quotes.

However, even with these two factors, Solusar is still favored far more.

How exactly? You’ve failed to respond to my comments stating that Korr’s Telekinetic abilities vastly outstrip Solusar’s own. Jaden’s bringing the Force into this battle in a Revan-like manner and Solusar has no response. Your claim that Solusar did well is also now being called into question as there’s now irrefutable proof that Solusar was a pretty incompetent Jedi Knight. So again, how is he still favored? Educate me!



While Jaden is weaker in Crosscurrent, we can't really quantify just how much weaker he is. An earlier line in the book refers to his sensitivity as benighted:

It doesn’t matter if we can’t quantify it, the point is it was enough to hamper his connection and his overall performance. Again, we have evidence within the novel themselves in terms of his performance. He goes from being overwhelmed by Alpha, to casually dismissing Runner(Kyle Clone) and stalemating his own clone. As if that wasn't enough we also have the following discussion between Luke and Jaden:

Luke and Jaden:

Moreover, even Jaden state he feels different.

Jaden feels like himself again.:

Clearly, his connection was distorted enough for Luke to sense a great change in Jaden and likewise, Jaden was able to feel it himself. So to reiterate, Jaden, as you've already stated was not at 100% in Crosscurrent and therefore not fighting his best against Alpha.



Problem is, this is in a Force vision he had. So we can't really apply it to his power level in the book. So realistically, he can't be weakened to a vast degree.

You’re going on record and saying that the Force is more important in a duel per Jaden’s comments, but then you want to disregard the reality that is Jaden’s disrupted connection? The reality is we have evidence from both Jaden and Luke himself stating that as of Riptide there's a great change in Korr, great enough to be noticed by the Grandmaster. Even Relin in Crosscurrent notes that just as rage is pouring off of him so is doubt pouring off of Jaden.


Jaden's doubt:

We all know that doubt is the enemy of the Jedi as we see in ESB when Luke doubt's he could do what Yoda wants him to do.




As for Alpha's physical strength supremacy over Kam,

Glad to see you agree that Alpha’s superior to Solusar in that regard, concession accepted.

Jaden himself in the next book notes that force power is more important than physical strength in lightsaber combat.

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 39523600 Which is fine and dandy but the fact remains. Physical ability can be a turning point in combat. For Example

Skill Vs Strength:

Cybernetic Strength:

Physical Strength = More Aggressive:

Tremendous Strength vs Technical Skill:

So, in various works, we see the importance of strength, especially to those who have a tremendous amount of physical ability like Savage, Anakin, Vader, and so on. While you may consider it negligible the fact is Alpha has that physical strength going for him and is going to use it in a way that benefits him as a duelist. Now combine that lean physicality with the Force and the end result is a battering-ram-like combatant. Doesn’t help that Jaden wasn’t at his peak either.



So Alpha's advantage in this field is rather negligible:
While you may be entitled to consider physical strength negligible in this situation, the fact is an advantage is still an advantage! Regardless of what you may believe Alpha has that physical strength going for him and is going to use it in a way that benefits him. Now combine that physicality with the Force  and you have lethal opponent akin to Savage

Again, by virtue of the quotes regarding the growth of the Clones, Alpha is considerably stronger than Solusar combine that with Korr’s saturated connection and you have a recipe for disaster. You’ve posted the importance of the Force in combat, Korr’s connection was being hindered. Ergo he’s not fighting his best against Alpha because of it.



So that leaves us with:

Jaden Korr > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar

Nope! Jaden as of Riptide is equal to Soldier who in turn is the strongest of the Clones so the chain is more
Jaden=Soldier>Clones>Benighted! Jaden>Kam

Looks pretty close, huh? While Kam scales above, Jaden still has a shot, right? No

Perhaps in your distorted reality, but here you’ll adhere to the truth or go mad denying it.

Guess what Solusar has that Alpha doesn't have? Decades of Marial Arts training and experience. (both in the battlefield and in spars against master duelists of the order.)

Didn’t help old Solusar against GAG did it? Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 2960029119

Inferno wrote:Jaina turned her attention to the courtyard below and was horrified to see Kam Solusar on the ground, three columns of smoke rising from his motionless body. Ozlo and Jerga were in even worse shape, their long Mon Calamari heads cratered with blaster pocks.

Simply put, a fight between Jaden and Solusar would go much like Jaden's fight with Alpha. But the existing gap grows.

The gap neither exists nor has it grown. But please feel free to educate me.

Whereas once, all Jaden had to deal with was raw power, now he has to deal with that AND far, far, far more finesse and skill.

He’s dealt with finesse and skill. The issue for you is that Kam is not going to have the same advantages as Alpha. Jaden’s connection to the Force won’t be holding him back, and Kam won’t have the advantage of savage-like strength.  You’re operating on the belief that Kam is infinitely better than Jaden but the truth is he’s not. Kam’s going to have to find a response for Jaden’s Force+Saber combo, and seeing how he didn’t have a response for Sedriss’ Force Choke I doubt he'll have an answer for Jaden's Force Abilities.


-Kam's accolades are far more impressive than Jaden's.
Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 1220391476 Countered
Kam has arguably better feats.
Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 1935072468  Countered
Jaden's struggle against Alpha supports the notion of Kam's supremacy. And even if peak Jaden could take Alpha, it still wouldn't save him from Kam's superior skill.
Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 2208776636 Countered
Thus far, you've conceded thrice. One on Luke holding back, the other on Korr not being at 100%, and lastly Alpha being "superior"(via your use of supremacy) to Kam in terms of strength. Moreover, you didn't respond to the section regarding Jaden's Force ability being beyond Solusar's capacity which I will note down as a tentative concession Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) 4233314142

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.myinstants.com%2Fmedia%2Finstants_images%2Fakihiko-ive-been-waiting-for-this

-Kam's fight with Luke is something Korr could similarly replicate assuming Skywalker is holding back, which per your concession, he is.
-Jaden is similarly able to replicate Solusar's feat of fighting alongside Skywalker and the Ysanna. He's faced worse odds alone!
-The Clones possess a tremendous mastery of the force and continue to grow in the years after.
-Jaden's crosscurrent iteration is weaker/not at 100% per your concession + proof reinforcing this statement.
-Soldier is the prime/best of the clones and is objectively an equal to Riptide! Korr.
-Solusar has none of the advantages Alpha had one of which was physical strength
-Jaden's force ability vastly outstrips whatever Solusar has to offer. (since you've yet to refute my claims)
-Solusar was unable to defend against GAG Troopers.

Again, Kam's advantage with the blade is minimal at best, negligible at worst. Given Jaden's use of the Force in mid-combat Kam's going to have to come up with a response or defense, neither of which he has. Since Korr is an equal to the Prime, he stalemated him. However, whenever the Kyle-clone joined in, he was briefly overwhelmed before he summoned a reserve of power to hold back the strengths of the clones. I don't see Solusar doing that, and since Korr casually dismissed the Kyle-clone, it's a save to say his Telekinetic abilities are going to have Solusar scrambling. Jaden's bladework is good enough to handle the likes of the Prime it's enough to handle the likes of old Solusar.




I'm sorry this was a day late, but Thank you for your patience! and for offering to give me an extension! I appreciate it! I look forward to seeing your response, Chris!
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Empty Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)

May 11th 2022, 1:46 pm

Yippee Ki Yay - Kneel Before Jedi Master Bruce Willis

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Kam



Fated Xtasy wrote:If that were the case we wouldn't be having this debate. Let me show you just how the ancients did it back in the golden age.
Lets see if the dinosaur fossil still has some bite left in it. (It doesn't)


Responses:



Fated Xtasy wrote:That’s certainly a stretch. But I can’t wait to see you workyourwayoutofthisone educate me on the subject matter
Not sure what the matter of contention here is. Have you read the quote I posted? "The greatest master of lightsaber combat in the Jedi Order was known as the Battlemaster."

Not really a stretch when he's put at the top.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Nope, Katarn became Battlemaster between 12ABY and 13ABY
Very nice. However, this quote neither scales JA Korr above 11-13 ABY Kam, nor does it scale Korr to near Kyle level. But good find ig.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, but the knowledge they impart does, which you didn't refute, so I'm assuming that we're in agreement there.
What quantifiable or significant ability of any kind did Kyle teach Jaden? Training under Kyle doesn't mean that Jaden knows everything Kyle does.

Look at it this way: Would you argue that Serra Keto, Whie Malreaux, and Drallig's other apprentices are anywhere near his direct predecessors in knowledge? Let alone Drallig himself?

And hey, if you wanna go this way, many of Kyle's students were killed by mere Peace Brigaders and voxyn. Whereas one of Kam's students, Octa Ramis became a high ranking Jedi and a councilor.

Ded Students:

It's a shame the knowledge Kyle imparted wasn't significant enough to scale his students anywhere near his level in any aspect. It's almost as if being trained by Kyle doesn't mean much in the long run for Jaden. Unless of course, you can provide any quantifiable abilities/powers/etc that Jaden has that will put him on par with Kam or above in terms of knowledge.


Fated Xtasy wrote:I look forward to seeing you prove this
What part of "Battlemaster" is unclear? Hell, he laid the initial foundation for the Order's lightsaber skills with the Three rings of defense. You can argue that him being a pioneer doesn't mean he's still amongst the most skilled overall, but that's just cope.

But to further emphasize my point, lets look at stats for a second. Kam is statted to be above Kyp and Corran in sabers circa 25-27 ABY.

Kam vs Corran and Kyp:

And he's rather close to end of NJO Kyle.

Kyle Dueling Stats:

Every single relevant source suggests/supports the idea of Kam being a top tier within the order in sabers. It'd be ridiculous if he wasn't.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Comparatively speaking, Korr ascended the ranks faster than Solusar. Jaden went from an initiate to an apprentice, to a Knight in a span of a year. Meaning that Korr was a Jedi Knight at the age of 13-14 which is an impressive feat for one so young, don’t you think?

By contrast, Solusar was trained as a Jedi Knight by Ranik Solusar and later as a DS adept by Vil Goir nevertheless Solusar was considered a trainee by Luke in spite of all of Kam’s training.
Kam had some training as a boy, and then his dad died. And then he spent years in isolation. He wasn't exactly a conventional Jedi by any means. He had some of the most stunted growth pre JA.

Plus, Goir was only a lightsaber instructor. The fact that Kam was with the DSE for less than a year and already proficient enough to lay the NJO's foundation for lightsaber combat is pretty impressive.

Noob:

And don't forget: Once Kam joined Luke's Academy, he quickly rose to the rank of master and then Battlemaster. All within a couple years.

So whereas Jaden rose to the rank of Knight within a year and master in ~30 years, Kam went from Jedi trainee to Master to Battlemaster all within a year or two of formal training.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Moreover, those quotes regarding Jedi Masters are a generalization that could likewise be applied to Korr at the end of his career. You have my thanks!
Not quite, but I'll get into that later. Either way, my guy's had all those accolades for decades. Yours, for maybe like a couple weeks. So sure, they can apply to Jaden but it won't save him.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Read that again, please. “HIS” lack of confidence in HIS ability. Clearly, Skywalker, Katarn, and the rest of the Council thought highly of his skills. This is supported by Kyp Durron— a contemporary of Solusar—who states the following;
--
Jaden impresses Duron:
I don't really see the relevance of this bit. Impressing Kyp Durron doesn't really make him a peer.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Additionally, Korr is praised by Luke as one of the Academy’s most promising students
Ah, yes. He's "one of" the most the most promising students in a generation with other notable and GREAT Jedi such as.....

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Unknown

Jokes aside, While that accolade is great and all, it doesn't bind Kam or his generation. More importantly, it doesn't exactly do much to my original point. Sure, he passes the threshold for being an amazing Knight. But not for being a master.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Clearly,  Korr declined out of humility and lack of confidence in his ability
Which is basically what I said (mostly the lack of confidence part). And I don't think there would be a massive disparity between where he holds himself and where he ultimately falls.


Fated Xtasy wrote:And Jaina states she believes there are knights and masters more powerful than her yet she becomes the sword of the Jedi, Anakin Solo is doubtful of his abilities as a Jedi yet he’s dubbed the next Luke Skywalker, The Emperor’s Wrath believes they might die facing Baras yet the Dark Council ultimately bows to their unquestionable might after the Wrath kills the old Darth. As I stated above, Jaden refused the rank of Master, but as far as Luke, Katarn, and the Council were concerned Jaden was ready.
Jaina was dubbed Sword of the Jedi 13 years before she made that embarrassing concession in LOTF. SOTJ Jaina is sub masters and several knights. Not sure why you're wanking Jaina (a massive disappointment) to help Korr. Not a good look to be like Jaina.

But to address the broader point: It's the same as I said above. Korr is a prodigy, sure. But he's no Skywalker or Outlander. I'm not sure why we should assume there's a massive disparity between where he holds himself and where he ultimately falls.

But lets run with your idea for a second. Korr, a fair bit before 41 ABY, is master tier. That's great. But Solusar still became a master far faster and held the rank for far longer,  AND advanced faster once he began formal training, so..... my point still stands.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Solusar also acknowledges that Luke could best him at the very beginning? If that was all that was exchanged between them I’d be happy to concede that the quote indicates that the battle is close, but unfortunately Luke goes on to say that Kam‘s dark side powers are “nothing” to him almost immediately after. So his performance isn’t as insane as you make it out to be. I’ll expand on this thought later.
Luke is saying that in continuation to his previous line about Kam killing him.

Kam's dark side powers "mean nothing" to Luke because Luke will  "gain powers beyond your imagination" if Kam strikes him down. Luke still acknowledges that Kam could potentially strike him down. Which is the relevant point here.

Audio Drama Script:


Fated Xtasy wrote:If you want to talk about protracted, then look no further than Korr having to fight his way through Taspir III where he fights a tremendous amount of Reborn/Cultists
--
The Reborn are resistant to most Force Powers:
--
They are similarly extensively trained in combat.
--
Cultists may not be as heavily trained as Reborn, yet they’re noted to be advanced duelists and have mastered different aspects of the Force.

Apple, meet orange.

I don't quite understand how these feats are similar. One fought and pressed the greatest Jedi Master. The other......... beat fodders. It's not like the Disciples of Ragnos were particularly powerful fodder, either. Much of their ranks were non force sensitives artificially empowered. Somehow I'm not that impressed here. Your plea here (and in the rest of this debate) is quantity>quality. Which doesn't really work.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Korr was destroying Reborn and Cultists by the handful. Even with the advantage of throwing Dark Jedi at Korr, Alora still couldn't beat him on Taspi, and in fact, Korr seemingly destroys her.
Cool. But why is this better than Kam's feat? Alora is just a slightly more powerful version of the fodder you face throughout the game.


Fated Xtasy wrote:The inference here is that Jaden's still able to best her without resorting to any special tactics. While what I've highlighted in red could indicate that he's losing, it's worth noting the following text.
Neither of which is a good look for her. We can look at it two ways:

A: Like I said above, she's a slightly better version of the usual fodder you face in the game.

B: She can't even physically catch up to and kill a force user with drained reserves.


Fated Xtasy wrote:The text indicates that Jaden destroys Alora which implies that Korr bested her pretty solidly
Yeah lets go with A. It's a lot less sad. Still doesn't make Alora look good but whatever.


Fated Xtasy wrote:which is impressive given the series of Reborn, Cultists and Stormtroopers he was facing prior to this confrontation. . So while I’m not all comparing the Reborn/Alora to Luke, I will say that the sheer amount of opponents that Korr had to face simultaneously and consecutively—by himself I might add—showcases that’s he’s beyond the likes of Solusar.
It's not all one long confrontation or fight. What do I mean by this? Well you have the option to heal yourself in between fights and such. So it's not like he can't rejuvenate himself before killing more fodder.

And more to this point: Jaden has an energy shield on for all his showings in Academy. You can argue that the advantage is minimal, but at the end of the day, he still has something that can tank multiple blaster bolts and/or saber strikes for him.

Energy Shields:

That means we can't exactly quantify how well he did and whether or not he got tagged. So that casts doubt on, and potentially bogs down all his feats and showings in Academy.

You could argue that he'll have this advantage in our hypothetical fight. However..... no. He won't. Jaden was never depicted using a shield in his duology. Nor FOTJ for that matter. Guess he experienced a drop in IQ between JA and FOTJ if he decided to stop using it.


Fated Xtasy wrote:However, I’d like to finally touch on my previous comment wherein I mention Solusar’s control and inexperience. Here, Luke states that while Kam is skilled he’s objectively inexperienced.
This is an even better look for Kam. With little experience, he's able to not only press Luke, but oneshot a DSE member. Just imagine how big a beast he becomes with formal training and such. Everything he did in DE2 was while he was basically a noob. Which is what I mentioned in my opener. And it's what makes Kam even better.


Fated Xtasy wrote:“The most progress.” For all his skill the Jedi “Knight” seems to fall short in comparison to a mere trainee, this seems to tie together with Luke’s thoughts on Solusar being inexperienced.
Gantoris had some pretty awesome potential. Even moreso than Kyle mind you. So trainee Kam being sub trainee Gantoris has no bearing on anything. As I pointed out above, Kam at this point had only basic training as a child. He is not a full fledged Knight. (Yet) He is still a noob.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Moreover, we have Kam himself admitting he lacks the control necessary to duel someone like Corran
Allow me to provide some context, here's the full quote:

Kam explained that there were things I needed to learn from a living foe and that he, Kam, did not have the control necessary to spar with me. It would be up to Luke to make sure I didn't hit him and he didn't hit me, causing him to concentrate.

-I, Jedi

Not sure how it's a bad look for Kam. If anything, you've managed to provide us with excellent Kam wank. It's almost saying the complete opposite of what you want it to say lol.

Kam is basically telling Corran that he can't properly pull his punches at that point. That's what lack of control means. Sparring with Kam is gonna be deadly for Corran because Kam might kill him due to his (then) lack of Jedi restraint. Remember, Kam's upbringing wasn't normal. Up to that point, he only used his lightsaber to kill or wound.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Even if I grant you that Solusar status as the acting instructor is emblematic of Kam’s overall combative ability, there’s still the matter of his lack of control, inexperience, and more importantly, Luke’s dismissive attitude towards Solusar
Teachers more often than not know what they're talking about. In SW anyway. His lack of control isn't detrimental to him in versus. Quite the contrary. And Luke doesn't have a "dismissive attitude". In fact, Luke calls him a gifted duelist in the very same scan you've sent.

Plus, even if we take everything you say as fact: All of it only apply to JA Kam. He becomes a full Knight, Master, and Battlemaster very shortly after. Which is still better progression than Jaden.


Fated Xtasy wrote:You’ve already admitted that Skywalker was holding back, But I really want to highlight how the usual “everyone is stronger than me” Luke Skywalker rhetoric is completely thrown out the window when Luke states that Solusar is “nothing” to him. Meaning that Skywalker is—for once—adamant in his belief that someone cannot defeat him which is a rare moment for Luke. Which is to say, that Solusar wasn’t matching Luke by any stretch of the imagination.
Already addressed above, but to further emphasize my point, if fighting Solusar has Luke grunting with effort and getting winded... that's a good look for Kam no matter how you slice it. Even with Luke holding back.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, but the showing is indicative of Luke/Yoda’s mastery and their apprentice’s lack thereof. Ergo, the feat benefits Skywalker/Yoda, but not their opponents.
--
As I said, that’s not an indication of Kam’s abilities. If Luke held back, then it would be LUKE who would have to make sure that HE doesn’t hurt Kam, and that Kam doesn’t hurt him.
Luke isn't effortlessly styling over Kam whilst holding back like he and Yoda did with the masters. It means that Kam is capable of pressing this Luke. Luke isn't dancing around him. The whole point is that sure, Luke is better than Kam. But Kam is still able to give him a good fight. Which is not something the masters fighting Yoda could do.


Fated Xtasy wrote:If you’re holding back and not trying to kill someone who is definitely trying to kill you the probability of exhaustion would be high
Not so. As per the examples with Luke and Yoda.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Put this together and what we have left is that Kam's inexperienced, uncontrolled, and underdeveloped dark side abilities are nothing to a Luke Skywalker who is holding back in hopes of redeeming Solusar. Simply put, the performance isn’t as impressive as you’re attempting to make it seem.
Already addressed all these points but let me add a bit more. Your implication is that Kam means very little to Luke overall. That just isn't so. Luke in Empire's End believes that losing Solusar could be detrimental to the revival of the Jedi. And it's not like it's unsupported by the lore. Given that Kam laid the basis for the academy's lightsaber combat.

Empire's End:


Fated Xtasy wrote:Jaden however was impressive from the get-go. He was one of the academy's most promising students, he was constantly praised by Luke/Katarn, and was held in high esteem by veterans like Chewbacca and Wedge early in his career.
The opinions of non force users hardly matters. But if you wanna play this game, sure. I can match that.

Solusar was held in such a high regard by Mon Mothma, (whose opinion arguably holds way more weight than Chewie or Wedge's) that she gave him a temporary General's commission. Achieving a rank that high in the NR is nothing to shake one's head at. In fact, he led the mission to sabotage and destroy the Eclipse 2. More impressive than Chewie or Wedge calling him a promising Jedi.

General Solusar:


Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, that did in fact happen, but Luke later states Kam isn’t as seasoned, Kam admits that he lacks self-control, and he progresses slower than a neophyte.
Repeating the same wonky talking points doesn't really get you anywhere. Nice try though.


Fated Xtasy wrote:So while I can appreciate your attempt to make this appear as though he’s grown in power, I'd go ahead and call this hyperbole as it’s more of an indication that Kam has been redeemed as opposed to having grown exponentially.
You're attempting to handwave something that's super clear. We have precedence for characters becoming better/stronger upon rejecting the dark side. Luke is the prime example of that. Kam was tortured until he turned to the dark side. The light within him was smothered. Once Luke lifted that shroud from his mind, he was able to shine brightly. Kam's redemption is written to be very similar to that of Luke's in Dark Empire. Luke gave into the dark side but upon rejecting it, he had more clarity and power. I mean just look at how he goes from losing to Palpatine in a duel to beating him. Which is mirrored by Kam being able to oneshot his former master.

Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Unknown

-NEG to Characters


Fated Xtasy wrote:You know as well as I that the Ysanna were also fighting against the Dark Troopers.
--
Moreover, two of the Force-sensitive were also aiding them and taking on the Dark-Troopers
None of this changes my point whatsoever. The odds were still impossible for him, Luke, and the Ysanna. Yet they overcame those odds and handily beat their opponents whilst weakened/tired.


Fated Xtasy wrote:That said, regarding impossible odds just look at Trainee Jaden was clearinghouse on Hoth.
--
Alora states Jaden destroyed her Forces.
Apples to oranges once again. "Fierce resistance" does not equal impossible odds. It's a different kind of feat. Also refer back to my point regarding energy shields and the possibility of him healing after combat.


Fated Xtasy wrote:As an apprentice, Jaden was carving through Bast Castle
--
After all this Jaden enters Vader’s training area and completes his training regiment.
--
Which Jaden “destroys” Vader's training regiment
Same as the above.


Fated Xtasy wrote:I could legitimately keep going and this on the planet Vjun alone.. Jaden’s just as capable of dealing with 1-10 odds. If not more so.
What you're proposing is:

Jaden Korr > Odds of the Bast Castle and other missions he's faced > > Odds of Ossus Mission < Kam and Luke

You'd have to argue that kid Jaden is > DE 2 Luke if you wanna say that the odds he faced in his missions are greater than what Kam and Luke faced on Ossus. Since those odds were specifically manufactured to weaken Luke. And it succeeded there. So good luck with that.

Plus there's no real way to quantify that Jaden's opponents were > DS amped stormtroopers. Both due to the sheer number and concentration and the fact that they were empowered by Palpatine just like the rest of the DSE. They have not only strength in numbers, but skill far beyond normal stormies, and direct power from one of the most potent force users in existence.


Fated Xtasy wrote:No, he isn’t. Kam’s fight against Luke is something even younglings could replicate if we factor in Kam’s inexperience, lack of control, underdeveloped abilities, and Luke having to hold back. This isn’t something beyond Jaden as of 14ABY, let alone peak Jaden.
I really hope you're not arguing that Jedi younglings can make Luke grunt with effort or get him winded. Because the lore definitely disagrees with you there.

Observe how Luke effortlessly styles on these apprentices whilst lecturing them. Isn't get winded or anything:

Wowsa this art is so bad:

Pressing a Luke, even a Luke that's holding back, isn't something just anyone can do.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Beating Dark Troopers with the assistance of the Theysanna is likewise not beyond Jaden as we’ve seen him literally take on hordes of Stormtroopers, Cultists, Mercs, and Reborn. Kam’s not outdoing anyone here.
Refer back to my point on quantifying Jaden's opponents vs DS amped troopers. Different circumstances, different volumes of enemies, etc, etc.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Please elaborate on his growth.
Dark Empire 2 takes place during 10 ABY. Fate of the Jedi is 44 ABY. Why wouldn't that Kam be vastly above noob Kam?


Now onto the main event!


Alpha:



Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, the clones of Luke and C’baoth may be, but recall that C’baoth’s clone was created from just C’baoth DNA as opposed to being combined with Jedi/Sith DNA. While in C’baoth’s case the Clone is as powerful as the original, in this case, we’re dealing with the unquantifiable factor of additional DNA making up the Sith-Jedi Clones. Unfortunately for you, the variable in this equation was already been accounted for by yours truly
This'll be fun.


Fated Xtasy wrote:That’s just straight-up false bro. The fact of the matter is that the clone community is made up of the DNA of several different Force users composed of Lumiya, Mara Jade, Kyle, and Jaden himself. While you can say that the experiment was a failure, the clones are still spliced with the DNA differing from the originals hence their potential is stated to have grown at an alarming rate.
The first scan you've sent here says they had an "extant" knowledge of their force sensitivity. Meaning they were born knowing full well they had force sensitivity. That is an advantage most force users don't have. They're often discovered by other Jedi or other force users. The clones' fast growth can largely be attributed to that. Plus, recall how Luuke was able to more or less match Luke. And he wasn't even a year old. Fast advancement is not exclusive to the Community and can't exactly be used to put Alpha far above Kam.

As for the second scan, "high midi-chlorian count" means very little. It's wonky ground to scale the Community over their templates.


Fated Xtasy wrote:That doesn’t sound like a failure to me
My point ultimately stands. The goal of creating breakthrough force users unbound by light and dark failed. The imps created a bunch of crazed dark siders. That part outright failed. That goal did not succeed. So right off the bat, we got failed supersoldiers.


Fated Xtasy wrote:You’re wrong though, the quotes above objectively state that the Clones mastered their abilities and have a tremendous amount of potential. Furthermore, the Clones are stated to continue to grow in power as time passes by
--
They mastered their abilities early in their lives, displayed a tremendous amount of power, and still, continued to become stronger. That alone gives us a clear indication that the clones—or in this case Alpha—are stronger than their templates.
The quotes you've sent state that they have a high midichlorian count and that they were able to master basic force powers. That is not solid ground to scale Alpha above Kam.

You could argue that the Doctor saying "extraordinarily high midi-chlorian count" means that they believe them to have more midichlorians than their templates. But that's suspect insight. Why? Simply because the cloning of force users just isn't a thing that often happens in the galaxy. This whole operation was experimental for them. The clones have "extraordinarily high" midichlorians compared to most beings. Not compared to their templates.

The scientists don't mean to say the Community is > their templates in potential. Just that they have a lot of midichlorians.

In fact, you'll notice that it's never stated that the Community is equal to or superior to their templates in the force. Don't you think Kemp would have thought to mention that? Especially since he outright mentioned Alpha's physical superiority? In all honesty, I'm being generous when I say Alpha>~The Entire Clones. Soldier is consistently stated to be the greatest of the clones by three different sources.
The first being the Omniscient Narrator and it's further reinforced by the statement of "They knew it, and he knew it."
--
Seer, the Community Leader acknowledges his superiority over them.[/quote]
There is a problem with the chain you propose.

Soldier's supremacy over his fellow clones lies not in power levels or even dueling skill. He's the best of them because he isn't suffering from the same clone madness and physical illness that they are. It's noted in the first quote with "and he showed no signs of the illness that afflicted the rest." And in the second quote, Seer outright says his perfection is "In body and mind."


Fated Xtasy wrote:and lastly, the One Sith and their agents refer to Soldier as the Prime.
Prime is just their codename for him. It means nothing in and of itself. You could argue that Soldier's resistance to Nyss' void grants him supremacy over his fellow clones, but that was never attributed to pure, raw force power. Could very well be hax in play.

Especially considering that Hunter, the Mara clone was easily depowered by Nyss' void:

Hunter:

And if we wanna assume that Hunter's potential is around Mara's... And that Jaden is ~ Soldier in power/potential..... Well, Mara>Jaden is a thing. Mara could have instantly become the best student in the Academy whenever she rejoins:

Best Student:

And Luke and Mara were considered to be the best warriors in the NR:

Best Warriors:

There is far more I can provide as proof of Mara's supremacy to Jaden in power and potential but you get the idea. Soldier is not necessitated to scale above the rest of the community in power. His supremacy to them merely lies in the fact that he isn't a deranged psycho that's dying of clone related illness.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Thus we can safely establish that Korr is similarly as Powerful as Soldier (if not more so) and is consequently >The Clones, including Alpha. Since the clones are stated to be extremely powerful, we could say Alpha>Solusar or Clones>Genetic Templates just for funsies. But let's say I—hypothetically—concede this point and agree that Solusar and his clone are equals. The Jaden clone is still the best of the clones, Jaden still stalemates Soldier, and the chain remains mostly the same. Jaden=Soldier>Alpha>~Kam

Take your pick!
Thanks! I'll go with Jaden > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar.

Since that is the correct stance. (If not a bit overgenerous on my part.)


Fated Xtasy wrote:Due to a benighted force sensitivity, which you yourself have stated is the most important aspect of a duelist. Therefore if his connection is damaged, then his performance would also take a hit. Not to mention the vast difference in Jaden's performances in Riptide V Crosscurrent.
As I've explained in my opener, his "benighted" sensitivity was only within the force vision that he had. He was able to draw on the force just fine throughout the rest of the book. I'll be generous and entertain the notion that his PTSD might have made him fight not as well as he usually could. But guess what? There is zero evidence to suggest that he's inferior by a noteworthy or significant degree.

To put it another way: If you're visually impaired or unable to hear or have any number of disabilities within a dream, you obviously won't suffer those same effects once you wake up.

Me saying Jaden>PTSD Jaden is yet another generous estimate.


Fated Xtasy wrote:How exactly? You’ve failed to respond to my comments stating that Korr’s Telekinetic abilities vastly outstrip Solusar’s own.
Generic TK feats within Academy's exaggerated video game medium and basic force pushes within his books. They're hardly damning or quantifiable against Kam's throwing boulders with enough force to bring down TIEs. Why compare apples to oranges when I can just prove Kam's supremacy to Korr with my superior chain?


Fated Xtasy wrote:Jaden’s bringing the Force into this battle in a Revan-like manner and Solusar has no response.
Who cares? Literally anyone and everyone can use TK when advantageous moments arise in duels. In fact, here's Kam being stated to wield force powers and his lightsaber in an ancient dance of death.

Dance of Death:


Fated Xtasy wrote:It doesn’t matter if we can’t quantify it, the point is it was enough to hamper his connection and his overall performance. Again, we have evidence within the novel themselves in terms of his performance. He goes from being overwhelmed by Alpha, to casually dismissing Runner(Kyle Clone)
Casually dismissing? How do you plot that course? The very passage you sent says he took Runner by surprise:

Surprise:


Fated Xtasy wrote:As if that wasn't enough we also have the following discussion between Luke and Jaden:
Moreover, even Jaden state he feels different.
Yes, he's more serene, he feels as if he has more purpose. He's gotten over the PTSD and lack of purpose. That's cool. But guess what? Never once in Crosscurrent is he stated to not be able to draw on the Force. The only example of that is the vision and I've already addressed that above. As Luke said in the scan you've sent, Jaden is just calmer.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Clearly, his connection was distorted enough for Luke to sense a great change in Jaden and likewise, Jaden was able to feel it himself. So to reiterate, Jaden, as you've already stated was not at 100% in Crosscurrent and therefore not fighting his best against Alpha.
He was able to use the force just fine. In fact, he does in the Alpha fight:

Calm of the Force:

When I said he wasn't at a 100%, it was purely related to mindset. Not ability to use the force. He can draw on power just fine. But he's just not as zen. So sure, he's not at 100. He's at 90. Not a meaningful step down. Think about it like a less intense version of Mustafar Vader.


Fated Xtasy wrote:You’re going on record and saying that the Force is more important in a duel per Jaden’s comments, but then you want to disregard the reality that is Jaden’s disrupted connection?
See above.


Fated Xtasy wrote:The reality is we have evidence from both Jaden and Luke himself stating that as of Riptide there's a great change in Korr, great enough to be noticed by the Grandmaster. Even Relin in Crosscurrent notes that just as rage is pouring off of him so is doubt pouring off of Jaden.
To touch up on the Luke part.... you do know Jedi can sense emotions, right? Luke is just saying Jaden is more zen. Same thing for Relin's comments. They're just commenting on his emotional state.


Fated Xtasy wrote:We all know that doubt is the enemy of the Jedi as we see in ESB when Luke doubt's he could do what Yoda wants him to do.
Doubt didn't stop him from sinking into the calm of the Force. Crosscurrent Jaden is nowhere near as disadvantaged as you make him out to be.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Which is fine and dandy but the fact remains. Physical ability can be a turning point in combat. For Example
But it's not what won Alpha the fight. Alpha is just better.

I also find it funny that you use the Adi example of all things. Considering a large part of why Savage beat her was due to his own force power supremacy. Hell, it only strengthens my point if anything. So thanks. There is actually a far better example you could have used to argue the point of strength being an important factor but I'll let you figure it out.

Whatever the case, more force power = more speed, foresight, and augmentation ability = better overall.

Also, one of the scans you've used for this point runs counter to your argument:

ROTS:

Force reserves are painted as the more important of the two factors.


Fated Xtasy wrote:So, in various works, we see the importance of strength, especially to those who have a tremendous amount of physical ability like Savage, Anakin, Vader, and so on. While you may consider it negligible the fact is Alpha has that physical strength going for him and is going to use it in a way that benefits him as a duelist. Now combine that lean physicality with the Force and the end result is a battering-ram-like combatant.
Is the importance of the Jaden quote I sent lost on you? This man got brutalized and still ultimately thinks "Very little about this is physical." He himself doesn't believe Alpha's physical strength was a key point in that fight.

I'll repeat myself: more force power = more speed, foresight, and augmentation ability = better overall.


Fated Xtasy wrote:While you may be entitled to consider physical strength negligible in this situation, the fact is an advantage is still an advantage!
See above.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Didn’t help old Solusar against GAG did it?
Are you seriously trying to use Kam being ambushed and cheapshotted by snipers as anti wank?

The GAG is comprised of the best soldiers in the galaxy.

"I run a meritocracy, and the lieutenant shows merit. Put this incident on her record."

-LOTF Fury

Even with all their skills, they decided to draw Kam out and cheapshot him instead of facing him head on. The best of the best in the galaxy knew they stood no chance in conventional combat.

Add to that the fact that Solusar actually survived three sniper shots. Doesn't matter how injured he was. Most characters would not survive that. So nice try, but... this is hardly anti wank. Or quantifiable for that matter.


Fated Xtasy wrote:The gap neither exists nor has it grown. But please feel free to educate me.
Done. With extreme finesse.


Fated Xtasy wrote:and seeing how he didn’t have a response for Sedriss’ Force Choke I doubt he'll have an answer for Jaden's Force Abilities.
Oh don't you worry. I'll cover Kam's vast superiority in knowledge real soon. Stay tuned.


Anyway, I could keep responding but the rest of your post is just you repeating your wonky points. And I really don't feel the need to repeat myself in turn. So lets move onto something fun, shall we?


Solusar's Supremacy in Knowledge:



This one's simple. Solusar was not only co administrator of the Yavin Academy, but a founder of the Ossus Academy. As a teacher, he'd have to be a cut above the rest in knowledge.

But here's confirmation that Kam has studied/learned more. It's not exactly vague either. He's interfaced with the Great Holocron. A holocron that has so much knowledge, that not even the longest lived Jedi can completely study it.

Great Holocron:

While Jaden may have access to the teachings in Jedi vs Sith, Kam has the firsthand experience/knowledge that Korr simply lacks. Safe to say that they didn't scribe everything they got from the Great Holocron. Basically, Kam is Indiana Jones. Korr is one of his college students.

Now all that's just vague indicators. That's no fun. So lets cover something that we can outright quantify, shall we?


Fallanassi



During the early years of the Vong war, Luke taught Kam and Tionne a Fallanassi technique of projecting illusions. During Edge of Victory, Kam and Tionne kept the academy safe from casual inspection. While there were other Jedi on the moon, as per various sources, Kam and Tionne were the ones holding it:

Illusion:

Only under extremely close scrutiny was the illusion eventually seen through. But the fact remains. Kam and Tionne were able to project a moon tier illusion that kept the academy safe from casual inspection. And lets be honest here... Kam was doing the heavy lifting.

That's a moon tier feat. However you slice it, it's impressive. And unfortunately for Jaden, it's something Kam will have access to within the fight and should he decide to use it, it'll be a hard counter for Jaden.

To further hammer home this point, Kam as of 25-27 ABY is much better at telepathy than Jaden's master, Kyle at 29 ABY as per stats.

TP Stats:
There's more I can go into regarding Fallanassi techniques but that's all for now.

So, Jaden will have to deal with not only Solusar's extremely potent dueling and force skills, but he'll also have to deal with mindfuckery and illusions, should Kam decide to use them.


Master Supremacy



For my final additional point in this post, lets hammer home the supremacy Kam's status as a master grants him, shall we?

First off, no matter what Korr's position in Riptide was, it's clear that he returned to being a Jedi Knight by the time of Fate of the Jedi:

Knight:

So he's no longer a master. And sure, you could argue that he is still at that level. However.... The lore would disagree with you:

Shut yo mouth:

Clearly, it's Denning's intent to put masters far above Knights. To the point where they can literally shut up Knights and everyone below them casually with the Force. And Korr full well knows this. Kam happens to be a very prestigious master. And would be written as being able to easily do the same to Korr.

This isn't even crucial to my point. Just more insult to injury for Jaden.


Conclusions/Recap:



-Your argument for Kam's dueling skill advantage being "negligible at best" doesn't work. Jaden training under Kyle isn't anywhere near quantifiable proof.
-Your attempts to lowball noob Kam either just don't work or go against your bottom line.
-No matter how you slice it, Kam's fight against Luke in DE2 is impressive for a noob.
-All the arguments you made for Jaden in JA hinge on quantity over quality, whereas Kam's best performances are all quality.
-Your argument for the Community's potential being above the templates relies on generic statements of a "high midichlorian count" and "fast advancement through basic stages". Neither of which is nearly enough to put them above their templates. Nor is the Jedi + Sith DNA. Even if by some miracle, they're above the OGs, it isn't by a margin large enough to be detrimental to my case.
-Your wank for Soldier simply doesn't work.
-Jaden is sub Alpha.
-Kam has supremacy in overall knowledge and has abilities that will be hard for Jaden to counter.


That concludes my post. Best of luck in responding. Don't you disappoint me.


Last edited by Chris Cortosis on May 19th 2022, 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Formatting)
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Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng) Empty Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)

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