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DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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The Post Dump Empty The Post Dump

March 18th 2021, 10:56 am
If you have a post you want to write for Discord but with forum formatting, easy future linking, or archiving, just post it below here.
AA3
AA3
Level Seven
Level Seven

The Post Dump Empty Re: The Post Dump

March 18th 2021, 11:09 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Introduction


To clarify for the readers, this is my rebuttal to everything I can think of that Bran has written on Starkiller vs Vader, whether it be on Discord or forum:

@Quorian Debatist

As a preface, you've written a lot to me on this topic in various places, so I may not cover everything you've ever said to me, and, if I have missed something, feel free to just repeat it.

The Force Unleashed 1


Your claim that Starkiller is only a "little faster" than Vader is completely unwarranted. Even pre-revelation, there's clearly a sizeable difference, as the text notes SK is "fast and sly" compared to Vader who is "strong and relentless" - describing one as fast, and the other as not isn't suggesting a marginal edge. Your whole idea of closeness seems to be based on the fact that Vader is still reacting to Starkiller even post-boost, but comparisons with other fights tell us that this doesn't necessitate such:

-We've seen Ti hold off Grievous for 10 seconds by her lonesome, when in that very same fight Grievous clowned her and 4 others simultaneously.

-We've seen Dooku hold off Anakin for 12 seconds despite the fact that he's a "joke" to him, and that the entire fight was basically a comedy with a forgone conclusion. He was also getting absolutely hammered by Anakin's augmentation just prior, before Anakin had his revelation about the strength of anger.

-We've seen the Hero of Tython hold off Arcann in sabers, despite the fact that he spent the whole fight getting greydolled, and had fatigued so badly by the end of the fight that Arcann could casually pull him onto his blade, yet Arcann had enough left in the tank to hold off Valklander's entire big Lightning blast for like a minute.

Or, if you want an example regarding Vader, he holds his ground against Maul for like 15 pages in Resurrection, and continually reacts to him, despite his "far more formidable" ESB self, being "much much slower" than Maul.

The way I see it, this happens because, regardless of the disparity between the two characters, the inferior character can draw more deeply into their reserves in order to try and keep up at the expense of gassing out quicker. To go back to Dooku and Anakin, Dooku is capable of "drawing lavishly on his reserve" to meet Anakin's attacks which would have otherwise cut him in half, but feels his enhanced perceptions dulling after a short period of time. This happens with combatants until they either gas out (e.g. the Hero vs Arcann), or the intensity of their opponent's assault becomes too much (e.g. Sidious vs Maul in Shadow Conspiracy). The fact of the matter is, all Vader does is retreat for the whole duel - post-revelation - and desperately try to defend himself, but he repeatedly proves unable to properly disengage and recover his bearings. By the end of the duel he's so overwhelmed he's not even blocking SK's strikes - he starts laughing and then gets slashed twice more. Or, if we want to look at the game, Starkiller is just bullying Vader with the Force, and Vader's utterly unable to respond. The way I tie this to peak Vader is simple: Maul couldn't replicate this on a comparably strong Vader in Resurrection. Vader "holds his ground" against Maul, lasts 15 pages, and manages to get himself into a position where he can kill Maul, in spite of his general inferiority. SK finishes Vader far more cleanly, in far less time.

The Force Unleashed 2: Exhaustion


Contrary to what you seem to be proposing, I do have methods of quantifying the exhaustion. My main one would be the one above: SK outperforms TPM Maul - who's far above even peak Vader - against TFU/ANH Vader. This would place SK far above TFU 2 and peak Vader, which answers your question. But, even setting that aside, I have three additional methods of quantification:

(1) The Sheev Lightning walk.
(2) The Starkiller Clones feat.
(3) Lord Starkiller defeating Old Ben despite being massively below Peak SK, as is supported by Sheev and common sense from Lucas's statements on Vader.

...all necessitate SK is far above Vader, so his exhaustion has to have been a big deal. As to how it can be when the text doesn't put incredible emphasis on it hindering him, I'd offer the same rebuttal that I did to MP. Sean Williams generally doesn't comment on debilitating circumstances outside a couple of sentences - irregardless of the extent to which they hinder a character. Examples are Galen being weakened against Maris, him still recovering from the ISD when fighting The Core, and resisting the Dark Side without an alternative strength to draw upon against Vader, etc. In-universe, it's not hard to see that it would be massively hindering: Starkiller is noted to feel "simultaneously cleansed and poisoned", and exhausted to a greater extent than when his reserves were almost gone. He then goes on to fight Vader equally, despite pulverising the army of Starkiller clones who could have "easily overpowered" Vader, mere chapters earlier in this very same book. You've compared Force Exhaustion to physical exhaustion before, and brought up how you're not unable to accomplish your best even while tired to say that it probably didn't impact his fighting abilities that much - all exhaustion does is make it increasingly more difficult to accomplish your best until you basically collapse.

However, while this is true, I'd contest its relevance. SK probably can operate at his peak if required to, but if he did so he'd probably just fully gas out quickly like Maul did on Hypori, without overwhelming Vader. Or, rather, would you expect someone who has run a marathon to be able to sprint for any length of time, rather than dialing down their speed to what they can currently handle without collapsing? SK being able to accomplish his peak, but not fighting at it aren't mutually exclusive - we see Force Users dial down the amount of reserves they're burning through all the time throughout the lore. SK even does this against The Core in TFU: he stops throwing out big Force Waves like he normally does in combat, unless absolutely necessary, to conserve energy: "Still weary from his efforts with the Star Destroyer, he saved each big push until the very last moment, to spare his energies." In this case, as I covered prior, he's barely got anything left, so it's nor unrealistic that he'd want to conserve as much energy as possible - only using enough to keep up with Vader, while trying to set up openings to bring him down, rather than trying to ferociously overwhelm him. Speaking of openings, actually, that segways nicely into our next section...

The Force Unleashed 2: Openings


...you've claimed that SK is "way too sloppy" to do anything against high tier prequel duellists, because of his fight with Vader. That, even if you grant him having way higher combat power, he's just going to leave a bunch of openings and get destroyed. The issue here is, Starkiller doesn't leave any openings in his fight with Vader - at least not ones Vader can capitalise on - unless he's in a mentally unstable state. Look at the end of TFU, and look at The Cloning Tower fight. Both represent Starkiller in his peak, LS mindset, and he doesn't get tagged once. In The Cloning Tower they fight back and forth with no headway made on Vader's part, and he ultimately needs SK reeling from a vision in order to land a Force Push and retreat. You know who is leaving openings in that fight, though? Vader. Starkiller sets up a scenario where Vader leaves himself open and blasts him with Force Lightning. I'm certainly curious as to how this is an anti-feat, when the only one exploiting lapses here is SK, if you don't mind explaining it to me. Anyway, regarding TFU, Vader tries to abuse an opening and gets repelled, then utterly destroyed in sabers while he desperately tries to retreat, rather than throwing SK off with a Telekinetic attack. All of these instances you can list of Vader tossing SK around are from the games, after Juno gets thrown, where Starkiller is noted to be in Force Fury, and is autistically screaming and jumping at Vader. Even past The Cloning Tower fight, Vader isn't landing Force shoves or grabs on SK in the novel, as SK remains mentally stable in this medium: on the rooftop he just stonewalls him, but doesn't make any offensive headway.

But, ignoring that, I'm more interested in how you're planning on scaling PT Jedi to Vader's ability to spot and exploit lapses. He's inferior to them in augmentation, lightsaber skill, etc, yes, but that doesn't necessarily scale them to his ability to throw SK around with the Force. I want proof that they can replicate these feats.

Summary


Okay, so, tl;dr:

(1) SK is far stronger than Vader in TFU.
(2) I've provided reasonable quantification which proves SK is above Peak Vader.
(3) The lack of comment on the debilitating nature of SK's exhaustion doesn't affect my argument.
(4) SK's exhaustion can reasonably drag him down to Vader level, even if he's far above.
(5) Vader doesn't exploit any openings against a mentally stable Starkiller.
(6) Vader's ability to exploit openings isn't necessarily scalable to other characters.

P.S. I want proof for everything you've said on Vader's growth if you don't mind. I believe what you've said - it's just for future reference.

...and that's everything bar one final section:

Special Credit To...


Special credit to @KingofBlades for single-handedly pissing me off enough to make me write this much. Seriously, though, bro I dislike constantly being nagged to about rebuttals, so, please fuck off, and don't doubt my ability to reply ever again. The Post Dump 228124001


Last edited by AA3 on March 18th 2021, 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
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The Post Dump Empty Re: The Post Dump

March 18th 2021, 3:29 pm
oof
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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The Post Dump Empty Shadow of Revan and the Ancients

March 26th 2021, 3:14 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
A response to a Discord debate about whether Shadow of Revan is favorable to the ancients. Special thanks to Decaf. 

THE SITH SPIRITS AND THE ANCIENT THREAT

There's a lot of misconceptions about all this.

(1) The Sith spirits and their talismans give you buffs. They amp you. They empower you. They support you. They help you. Etc. You need what they give you to fight the Ancient Threat entity. Specifically, the ancient Sith spirits cast a buff (in-game) or spell/mark (in-universe) for their talismans to respond to you. Note that the Outlander only receives this spell/mark if he makes physical contact with their energy wave. That is to say that, in-game, if you are 'out-of-range' of their wave, you do not get the buff. Otherwise, if you don't get the buff either by being out-of-range or not interacting with them at all, "the talisman doesn't react to your touch." It's default state is actually unresponsive. And so it's not the talisman clashing against the Outlander due to his inherent power/presence but rather responding to the call of this spell/mark. And this response, in turn, casts its own buff (in-game) or spell/mark (in-universe) on you. Many different possible takeaways from this:

(A) Note all of this is prefaced by the Outlander going to Tatooine and discovering an "Ancient Tome" which "appears to contain information about defeating an ancient threat." Given interacting with the Sith spirits and their talismans is necessary to fight the Ancient Threat, it plausibly follows that the Outlander allowed the spells to be unleashed on him the way they did as, demonstrably, said course of events is what allows him to defeat the Ancient Threat (so that is to say the Ancient Tome tells him to do it).

(B) The "Ancient Tome" lacked the most relevant information about fighting the Ancient Threat--how to in the first place--and the Outlander stumbled upon these Sith spirits and talisman by happenchance. If so, it plausibly follows that the Outlander is not expecting these reactions, negating the ability of a valid power/will clash. And if he is expecting these reactions and yet still is doing it anyway--"That ghost blasted me backwards and that talisman had me stunned for many seconds... let's try it again three more times”--which is the only way a power/will comparison can be made, that begs the question of why. Unless he's just a masochist, the only reason of why is that he figures out doing this is necessary to defeat the Ancient Threat, and so see (A).

And that's sufficient to render any power comparisons here irrelevant. Sure, there's a possibility that the Outlander is running around like a mad dog, lightsaber razed, foaming at the mouth trying to cut down Sith spirits and mentally overpower talismans but keeps getting knocked on his ass and almost telepathically overwhelmed, but that's not the only possible scenario. And it's not even a likely one. In fact, it's staggeringly hard to conceive that as even a valid scenario. And, so, given literally no other material relevant to this exists for one to possibly substantiate this as an active clash of power/will, the comparison is dead. And even if such material spawned into existence, that only opens up an can of worms on how talismans function, in which again you'll find a power/will war as merely one of many possibilities of what's going on there. 

The Post Dump Unknown
The Post Dump Unknown

(2) There's a point of contention whether the Sith spirits are attacking or helping you (somehow). If they were attacking you, that would be to say somehow their residual passive energies coincidentally formed a multi-hour, hyper-unique 'spell' that then made the talismans responsive to you ... which is the only way then to fight the Ancient Threat. I've never seen a Force attack empower someone ever, so it's a hard sell the Sith spirits are so mighty their attacks literally somehow also are empowerments. Mentally imagine Exar Kun ripping a telekinetic attack at a Jedi but that Jedi just growing stronger as the energies spread across his body and make him shine. And I've especially never seen a generic Force attack have such a coincidental side-effect: the ability to interface with their talismans to fight the Ancient Threat.

(3) "Long-forgotten Sith spirits have awakened on Yavin 4. This convergence of dark side energies could give rise to a powerful and ancient threat within the moon's already-treacherous jungles." doesn't mean the Sith spirits formed the Ancient Threat themselves, lol. Indeed, how are they forming an "ANCIENT threat." Wouldn't it be the "NEW threat," then? As mentioned, Tatooine has preexisting scrolls about this Ancient Threat. Further, the Ancient Threat has a talisman of its own--the "Talisman of the Unknown"--and even its own shrine. And that shrine has unique Sithy armor resting on the top. So, the Ancient Threat is a preexisting entity--perhaps an ancient Sith itself given the talisman, armor, backstory, location, etc.--that rises up again due to the convergence of Kun, Ragnos, Hord, Sadow all within like a city block of its original resting place. And given we've reasonably established the Sith spirits are helping the Outlander, that means they're opposing the Ancient Threat... and concerned about the Ancient Threat. But they're hiding behind the Outlander to do all this. 

NAGA: "Hey, that maybe-ancient-Sith entity over there is scaring me."
TULAK: "Me too. Ah."
EXAR: "Should we fight it? As spirits, we're uniquely capable of fighting other spirits, after all, and we have a four to one advantage."
MARKA: "Nah. Let's just assist the dashing Outlander in defeating it and hide behind him during the fight."
ANCIENT SITH COLLECTIVE DURING SAID FIGHT: The Post Dump Behind-the-wall-picture-id628746002?k=6&m=628746002&s=612x612&w=0&h=W2Zw05YCpo8kNgE6G-rXhxyR_g8Iv8Uj0m4rZ3T_F2w=

The Post Dump Unknown
The Post Dump Unknown

(4) Kunities love citing this as their go-to Sith spirit comparison but also wave the "it's an easter-egg" fight when faced with some of the ramifications. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to use it, then you're faced with many ambiguities that renders it basically unusable anyway. If you want to prevail through the most apparent reading of it anyway, then the Sith spirits are afraid of this independent dark side entity they mistakeningly awakened and cooperate (from a safe distance) with the Outlander in destroying it. 

SHADOW OF REVAN RAMIFICATIONS REBUTTALS

-First of all, for the sake of formatting. The reason Malaphar is fighting for the Revanites is exactly the same reason the Massassi fought for Sadow, Nadd and Kun. They were worthy Dark Lords to serve. Darth Revan also qualifies. The simple fact that Malaphar's powers are exactly the same as what we see stated to be the powers that Exar Kun's own abominations display, is infinitely more telling. Because the reason they have those powers is because he spliced his DNA into them:

Lol. Recall the reason behind this whole thing is to say Shadow of Revan views highly of the ancients. Shadow of Revan has Theron Shan, an incredibly knowledgeable agent in-universe and generally a mouthpiece by which the writers can convey information out-of-universe, specifically say Malaphar is likely a Revanite creation. And that's easy to swallow given the Revanites possess thousands of Sith, including even Dark Councillors, and even Revan himself--one of history's most famous sorcerers. But you are to have us believe Shadow of Revan secretly wants us to look past that and realize it was EXAR KUN all along. That HE created some unprecedented dark side abomination despite no prior mention in the source, and so this is their way of conveying the glory of the ancient Sith. No, that doesn't seem apparent whatsoever. Certainly not the prevailing take, anyway.

To your point that Kun's Massassi exude rage and so does Malaphar, obviously, lol. Did you think Malaphar would exude happiness? And it works anyway as Malaphar is presumably a younger Massassi spawned from older Massassi--i.e. Massassi with Kun's DNA spliced into them. The point is, though, that the Revanites took a generic Massassi and turned it into the Incredible Hulk. Both things can be true at once. Irrelevant. 

There's also the interesting fact that despite Malaphar being less than a mile away from Kun and Sadow, and armies of Massassi maybe a baseball throw away from Kun and Sadow (Sadow specifically could take a piss and hit a Massassi given how close he is to them), they're nevertheless loyal to Revan. Unless Kun and Sadow are HIDING their presence (more on this later), then the Massassi are actively choosing to follow Revan than their original masters and help them restore to their former glory. That's not a good look for Kun and Sadow. 

4.You need to remember that Dashade sense a Force-user's essence, because it is the essence that they devour. So what Ak'ghal Usar is sensing is the Outlander's essence, Vitiate's essence and Kun's essence. Kun's essence is literally sat in bottles in his temple, because we see that his essence in the forum of red liquid is still present in his temples. So Usar, having scoured Yavin IV and the Temples, definitely isn't missing that or at the very least, isn't not going to sense it. Do remember that Kun's dark essence is stated to pervade the jungles of Yavin IV, even by SWG/JA. So yes, Usar absolutely has a measure of Exar Kun's essence. Not his power levels of that moments.

Usar doesn't seem to realise how much physical strength his imprisonment has cost him until he loses. But his opinion on the Outlander's standing is still very much the same. He doesn't change his mind even slightly. How he would pull off using the temple and other things doesn't really do anything to damage his species' specific trait. He definitelly appears to grasp what the Temple does, when he notes the planet had no fuel to feed it. Not when we know that the Dashade are right almost all the time on matters such as that. Thoughts that come to mind is when Hord's essence is devoured by another Dashade and far more importantly, Ak'ghal notes that he thinks Vitiate's supposed immortality is bullshit because he would've died without the temples. Which is absolutely correct.

I'm just going to bullet-point this section.

- I have no clue what this spirit / essence distinction is. Most (maybe even all) use those terms synonymously. Indeed, "essence transfer" itself refers to spirit transfer, lol.

- Nothing says Kun's essence sat in bottles in his temple. The fact a Star Wars Galaxies trading card says "This is an essence of the Sith" doesn't mean the Sith in question is Kun. No clue how that even makes sense. Kun's body is incinerated and his spirit anchors to the Dark Temple. How's his 'essence' split from that and within a jar? Why is there no mention of this elsewhere? Why didn't the smugglers destroy that essence after they plowed through Kun's temple and defeated him in single combat? Or, forget them. If Ak'ghal Usar HIMSELF found this jar of Kun's essence like you claim, why wouldn't he... you know... destroy it? "Oh, this is Kun's soul. Let me just put it back where I found it then cry about how I can't destroy Kun." What. Also, generally, I don't like arguments that clearly have no grounding in intent. Shadow of Revan writers didn't know about some obscure trading card when writing this Usar lines, lol. Referencing it doesn't get us any closer to deciphering the meaning of his comments. More on this later.

- The fact Usar faces the Outlander, loses, then claims he could have beaten him in his prime is not a good sign for Usar's credibility. The Outlander is the most potentially powerful being in galaxy history (up to this time, per Scourge at any rate) and has already conquered the Voice of the Emperor and fought foes like Malgus, the Dread Masters, Revan, and Arcann. The notion that a literally random Deshade from Kun's era could defeat him, and so virtually every character who came after, is absurd. If that's your argument, then it's just wrong on the default. You need a new argument there.

- Khem Val, another Deshade, one you say never gets anything wrong, senses Darth Nox!Outlander and initially judges her as weaker than she was in Act III. After the events of Knights of the Eternal Throne. That's the biggest thing to ever get wrong ever. The Outlander is incomprehensibly more powerful in every possible way INCLUDING POTENTIAL. So, we have a random Deshade thinking they can defeat the Outlander and another Deshade thinking someone verifiably far weaker than the Outlander is stronger than the Outlander. Their track record for this genuinely seems deliberately bad, which is plausible through the idea they just always profoundly underestimate their opponents.

I could probably go on all day about this argument, I really don't like it, but the gist is Usar is unreliable for a million and one reasons.

5.The Planet being razed and how it happened isn't actually as clear as you might have thought. Some sources blame the Jedi's power, other sources; including this one which is the latest and last take on the matter, state it is because of Kun. (It being IU doesn't bother me given sw.com support.) Yet more claim it was the combination of both. And if we want to get into very specific measures of 'usurping all life'(the context of Ziost is fine but hardly restrictive) would you like me to point out things such as 1990s Star Wars straight up confirming that even Danar could surface wipe planets or pull moons off of their axis with a monolith? A display of power very much locked beneath several orders of later superiority quotes, all of which end with Kun. Or y'know, Darth Nihilus stuff. 

Vitiate's inability to "usurp all life" at the end of Shadow of Revan is to say he couldn't kill everyone the planet. Revan is on the planet. The Hero of Tython is the planet. Darth Marr is on the planet. Satele Shan is on the planet. The Emperor's Wrath is on the planet. The Barsen'thor is on the planet. Darth Nox is on the planet. Armies of Jedi and Sith are on the planet. It's not just a matter of destroying the planet. It's a matter of "usurping all life"--it's usurping all the names I just listed collectively. Yeah, it's no wonder an unfathomably weakened Vitiate couldn't usurp all life. The implication that a fully powered Vitiate could do is is among the most impressive things ever attached to his name. Meanwhile, Tales of the Jedi explicitly attributes the fire spread solely to the Wall of Light. I don't know nor care about any sources attributing it to Kun, but it's at best then just extra fuel to a fire (literally) that can perfectly be attributed to just the Wall of Light alone. And that destruction is literally just a fire. It's not a Force energy wave like Ziost or what would have happened on Yavin. And there's no fifteen all-time Force users on the surface either. Comparing these two events to put Kun above is to compare, like, an atomic bomb with those baby reveal parties that end up burning down acres in California. 

---

THE ANCIENT SITH HIDE BEHIND BUSHES WHEN REVAN WALKS PAST THEM

Revan has activated the Temple of Sacrifice, a magical device that can turn spirits to physical form. Kun, Ragnos, Hord, and Sadow stand less than a mile away from this amazing possibility, with an army of Massassi surrounding them and the deaths of "war on a scale we've never seen" to fuel their powers. This is an unprecedented lucrative opportunity. Note that Revan's plan is to literally destroy Yavin, and if he's only partially successful there's a high risk then that Vitiate destroys Yavin. The Sith spirits should be freaking out right now. Or Kun should be, at any rate. Unless two end-all, be-all strike teams can take down Revan, at least Kun is a goner, and maybe the others too. So, their incentive to make a move here is insane. 

And they do nothing.

Instead they just fret over the Ancient Threat and hide behind the Outlander.

The Ancients should rally the Massassi behind them and storm the Temple of Sacrifice. The only reason they wouldn't is if they couldn't--whether due to the Massassi simply choosing Revan over them or fear of what revealing themselves might do. And there's no one to direct fear at besides Revan and friends.

The Ancients should mass possess Revanites and storm the Temple of Sacrifice. And presumably they 'could' in the technical sense, given all the fuel they'd be having and whatnot, so then it's again a matter of fear of what revealing themselves (to Revan and friends) might do.

(Note Satele Shan senses the presence of the ancient Sith in Shadow of Revan proper, so it's not just the easter egg (not that an easter egg appeal really works in a technical sense, and it's been used too frequently at this point for me allow you to take it back).)

To repeat, the ancient Sith have their original army, infinite fuel, the ability to return to the flesh (their only goal), and failing to do so yields a high probability of at least Kun's obliteration. And yet even collectively, none of them want to stand up to Revan. Lol. 

Then there's also the issue of how Vitiate's spirit on the "brink of oblivion" and not even conscious far dwarfs the energies radiating from this "convergence" of Kun, Ragnos, Hord, and Sadow by an extreme degree. Everyone agrees Yavin feels so awfully potent this time around due to this 1% Vitiate specifically. The Sith spirits get but a passing mention. "Vitiate's presence is plaguing the planet in darkness... Revan and the Temple of Sacrifice is the central nexus of the planet... Oh, yeah, ancient Sith are all huddled together too. Cool, I guess." This also links back to your Kun's essence in a jar argument as if you're claiming that sensing Kun's essence reflects his full potency, then the fact many characters in Shadow of Revan do general senses of the landscape and don't give the slightest fuck about it would suggest Kun's full potency is infinitely dwarfed by 1% Vitiate. Note the fact Kun's essence jar might be on the other side of Yavin is irrelevant because the characters explicitly speak about what they sense and how Vitiate is plaguing it with darkness on a planetary scale.

Assuming a in-depth response, will be a bit before I get back to this. The Post Dump 1289255181

ADDENDUM:

Couple things I wanted to quickly clarify.

(1) The buff the Sith spirits provide you is what's necessary to interface with their talismans. The buff the talismans provide you is what's necessary to summon the Ancient Threat. They don't provide any actual help to the fight itself, in case one was thinking the Sith spirits were the make-or-break of the fight.

(2) Another way of thinking about the Sith spirits and Outlander dynamic is that if the Sith spirits actually wanted to attack the Outlander, why would they only do a single attack then vanish? Why wouldn't they continue an assault/. It's quite hard to defeat an intangible spirit, after all. And the only reason their knockback would be important is to claim they overwhelmed the Outlander's greater or at least somewhat active Force barrier, but if they could do that then they should be able to defeat the Outlander, especially when they're invulnerable to most of his modes of attack. And the game itself describes the encounter as you "speaking" with them rather than a battle, which fits smoothly the idea they're willingly empowering the Outlander but less so if it's all hostile and random.

And that's on top of everything else. Tl;dr is any favorable take for the ancient Sith here doesn't work.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on March 26th 2021, 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

The Post Dump Empty Re: The Post Dump

March 27th 2021, 6:11 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
There's a lot of misconceptions about all this.



1.The Ancient Sith

You're making a massive amount of assumptions based on very little.

1.That the Ancient Threat arises and is empowered specifically by their convergence in that area speaks volumes by itself:

patch notes, swtor.com wrote:Long-forgotten Sith spirits have awakened on Yavin 4. This convergence of dark side energies could give rise to a powerful and ancient threat within the moon's already-treacherous jungles.

The Ancient Threat feeds on the dark side energies created by the convergence of their spirits and rises in power because of this. To a point where SOR Outlander literally can't defeat this thing without massive aid.

2.So you're going to appeal to the greater questline.... just to prove that this is even more impressive than it is otherwise? Your funeral.

So yes, the Outlander gets the ancient tome describing how to defeat the threat from Tatooine which is needed because you literally cannot breach its defenses without knowledge on how to bypass it:

The Post Dump Swtor-ancient-defenses-ancient-threat

You're also flat wrong where it comes to the supposed shield or amps from the spirits:

Force Echo description, Ancient Threat, Shadow of Revan wrote:You've been touched by the Force and an echo of that power remains within you.

This does indeed acknowledge that he needs something from the spirits. What that is, is simply requiring to have an imprint of their power on him to interact with their respective amulets. A signature if you will. See, you were almost right, but as you yourself note. The amulets don't react to the Outlander without an 'echo'. This is a mark left on the Outlander that is only temporary, in in-game time it's no longer noticeable after an hour.

I mean, really? "Yeah, we're going to give you an amplification of our power. But we totally don't know any other way of doing that besides sending you flying with an omnidirectional Force wave."

The Outlander does apparently know however that they need to be imprinted with the energy signature of the owner of each amulet to be able to interact with them at all. There's no spell, it's an echo of their power from attacking you that goes away gradually.

Which leads to the amulets. First of all, the supposed amp/buff from the spirits; which as I have explained already is merely an echo from a touch of their Force power, goes away as soon as you obtain said amulets. Second of all, given all of the above, the moment any one respective amulet reacts to the energy signature of its owner, it unleashes its power and this causes the telepathic backlash to occur.

Given the creators of these amulets, you know, created them. There's definitely something going on here when the power is so much it nearly overwhelms even Nox-lander mentally, then sends them flying reactively....

And does so another three times afterwards, even with the Outlander now knowing what will happen and thus having preparation.

So this whole 'the ancient Sith are afraid of the threat and hide behind the Outlander who they amp' is nothing but pure head canon. What is not pure head canon is that the Outlander gets nearly dominated telepathically by the power of the amulets, sent flying by the backlash of Force energy when it stops mentally attacking them.

That's where the actual fight comes in. The talismans aren't used as amps at all. They're placed on an altar, to summon the Ancient Threat and battle the thing, in the first place. You don't even have the amulets anymore when you battle it.

So to take note:
1.The Ancient Threat is awoken, empowered and rises specifically through the convergence of the dark side energies of the spirits of Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord.

2.The Outlander needs knowledge about how to bypass the Threat's defenses because it absorbs all damage otherwise.

3.The Outlander is attacked by the spirits with a Force wave and the echo of that attack is used to get their respective amulets to respond to that energy signature.

4.The amulets of Sadow, Hord, Ragnos and Kun nearly dominate and entirely ragdoll the Outlander with their power, four times in a row.

5.The amulets are used to summon the Ancient Threat and face it as a single entity, and don't act as an amplification at all.

6.The Outlander needs the aid of 15 'all timers' to defeat the thing; likely the same striketeam as that which faced Revan. As well as, again, knowledge on how to bypass what is otherwise impenetrable Force defenses.

2.Malaphar

Your entire basis for saying this is:

Theron Shan, Shadow of Revan wrote:"Trouble up ahead. I don't know if the Revanites have been experimenting or what, but they've got their hands on the mother of all Massassi."

So your source for Malaphar being a Revanite experiment is a Theron who prefaces this with 'I don't know' and then lists Revanite experimenting as a possible reason. Then your argument is that this abomination is unprecedented, when you already know Kun was making abominations in the first place.

This is where things get worse for you, because Malaphar isn't unprecedented, because he's not even the only one of his kind. There's another of the same size called Rnthmyr, who has nothing to do with the Revanites and who only guards ancient relics, and he's labelled as an 'Ancient Massassi'. Denoting his size has to do with his age, not any experiments by the Revanites as Theron claims. Malaphar doesn't have any reason to be any different:

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And either you didn't read what I'd said or you're making a really bizarre argument. Malaphar's aura causes the team to become savagely enraged, the only Massassi who do anything of the sort are the ones specifically noted to have been made Force-sensitive by Exar Kun using his own physical makeup during alchemy, as I've already shown you:

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun was more than happy to comply. He took his next step: infusing his new warrior with the dark side using some of his own physical makeup as a template. When Zythmnr readily took to the treatment-and even showed potential with Force skills-Kun chose several more "volunteers" to continue his work. Before long, he had several dozen living weapons that exuded the raw power and energy of the dark side. Upon feeling their power firsthand, the Jedi called them "abominations."
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So not only is Theron Shan proven wrong in the very game itself, but the fact that Malaphar the Savage can so drastically effect the same strike team that goes on to face Revan with his mere presence, when the source of his power is a minute fraction of what Kun himself wielded. Speaks wonders for how well the team would fare against the Dark Lord himself.

3.Ak'ghal Usar.

This is a whole bag of wrong, I'm going to dissect it.

1.Khem'Val believes Nox 'carries the stench of weakness' because Nox was imprisoned by one 'twisted by the Force' and thus not a rival of Tulak Hord after all. In other words, Val is not claiming ACT III Nox is > Nox-lander. He is saying Tulak Hord wouldn't have been imprisoned in such a manner and that this shows weakness comparatively. It says nothing for Outlander's personal growth. All it does is show how highly Val holds Hord. Which is interesting given that Val has already recently met and killed Veshikk Urk, who devoured Hord's essence and thus fed on the power of the Dark Lord.

2.Usar is fresh out of his cell, and hungers to feed on the Outlander because he has starved for centuries. He is unable to defeat him because he is starved. You're forgetting that Dashade don't think they're gonna beat you in a Force contest. They need only defeat you physically and feed on your life essence when you die. These Dashade are comparing you to the greatest Sith they've met or fed upon. That's how they operate.

3.Whilst you're wrong about the bottles of essence, considering the card is literally called 'Kun's Insight'. If you want to throw out the reconciliations cross-lore, then fine. But you need to recognise that SWG is not the only source giving us one of a hundred reasons why Usar could have a measure of Kun's power, there's a bunch of sources talking about how his spirit pervades the jungles and all that jazz.

But more importantly, not only do we see that Kun's spirit is literally able to manifest itself in reaction to the arrival of muggle Ulic two years after the final battle. (So he's still around, and even visible) But as you say, SWTOR has people like Satele Shan sensing the presence of the Ancients anyway regardless of whether or not we take Ancient Threat as a full lore event.

All of which leads to us having no reason to think Usar is just basing his comparison to Kun off of nothing. And I also love the implications of Outlander potentially straight up saying he is a servant of Exar Kun in response. But that's another rabbit hole.

4.Usurping all life

You're saying there's no comparison and then wildly missing the point that the attack was directly aimed at Kun. Vitiate's inability to planet raze Yavin IV due to a lack of power is given far more context when we see how much extra juice he needs from the mass slaughter on Ziost before he doomwaves it. I.E. a lot.

So a far more powerful Vitiate than the one noted to make the Dread Masters 'insignificant' by comparison, is able to doomwave Ziost and thus shows how big that gap really is.

This helps because I have absolutely no doubt at all that tens of thousands of Jedi; including Thon, Nomi Sunrider, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta, Oss Wilum and more, launching this massed salvo of light side energy directly at Exar Kun, definitely equates to power to decimate a planet's surface. This battle stated to be 'titanic', Kun stated to have been stopped before he could 'become too powerful',  Kun priding himself on how well he performed against 'all the known Jedi', TCSWE confirming that his power had mitigated the salvo from the Jedi Order.

So Exar Kun is close to not just becoming equal to the combined power of these Jedi, but straight up more powerful than they could sto. Yet, these Jedi have so many means by which to scale off of planetary surface razing that I could double the length of this reply just by listing them. Though I'd hope you wouldn't need to even contest this.

Now the integral part of your apparent distinction is that usurping all life on Yavin Four also means beating Revan and the Coalition. Well, whilst this is a viable avenue to wedge a gap between comparisons. As I've already stated, Ziost makes it clear that Vitiate can't do so there either. It's not because the powerhouses of TOR are there on Yavin Four to prevent him from doing so, it is that he straight up just can't raze the surface at all. Be it on Yavin IV or Ziost. He needs an enormous amount of death to replenish him 'by the hour', to be able to raze any surfaces at all. So I don't buy at all the idea that there's some hidden distinction being made in that codex entry. The very same codex entry and its partners are making it obvious that, that's not the case.

5.Ancient Sith are somehow scared

First, let's establish that Vitiate was constantly feeding on the war against the Revanites to replenish himself:



Tenebrae, Shadow of Revan wrote:"You wanted my return. You did not need to destroy whole fleets or turn a world barren for that. You only had to point the Empire and the Republic at a shared adversary, and let them do what they do naturally: make war. The scores of dead have nourished me- I am awakened, and I bring with me, death!"

So, for all your talking about the fuel the ancient Sith had, he had his own too which was constantly feeding him.

Second, Tenebrae literally still has a physical form on Yavin IV for an anchor, his original body. So he's got a stronger connection, and access to midichlorian based regeneration of his Force power, even if he is on the brink of death. The Sith spirits don't share this luxury.

Thirdly, would you care to list all of these reasons as to how exactly it's beyond doubt in SOR that Vitiate DWARFS and STOMPS these ancient Sith. I sincerely hope it isn't this quote:

Satele Shan & Outlander, Shadow of Revan wrote:"I've been to Oricon, this is another level entirely."

"Oricon was affected by the Dread Masters, even their combined power was insignificant compared to the Emperor."

Even Nox potentially doesn't know what even a Massassi is, you know the person who ran the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge for years. So the Outlander, regardless of which version, does not have any form of a good idea of what Yavin IV's history is like. Outlander automatically assumes that the power here has to be because of the Emperor. But this is straight up not correct. Especially not when we also get these quotes:

Satele Shan, Shadow of Revan wrote:"You sense it too. Not the ancient Sith, or the Emperor. Not Revan. Another presence... different from the rest."

Outlander & Satele Shan, Shadow of Revan wrote:"The Emperor is here, I can feel his presence. I'd know it anywhere. But he isn't alone."

"The Emperor isn't the only Sith to have left his mark on this world."

So the fact that the ancient Sith also caused the nexus of Yavin IV to be on 'another level entirely'. Isn't lost on Satele, at the very least. Nor is it lost on the game itself:

Yavin Four Codex Entry, Shadow of Revan wrote:Yavin 4 also holds a great deal of interest to the Jedi and the Sith. For well over a thousand years now, the dark side of the Force has flowed through Yavin 4 in an ever-increasing magnitude. But those who visit the moon's deadly rainforests and swamps in search of an explanation for the phenomenon rarely return, and never with any answers.

The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part I wrote:The first corruption of Yavin's fourth moon by the dark side that we know of corresponds with the arrival of Dark Lord Naga Sadow some fourteen hundred years ago. I'm not entirely sure whether Sadow was drawn here by the dark side or if he himself planted the first seed of its presence.

The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part III wrote:Just as Naga Sadow trained his eventual replacement, so did Freedon Nadd's spirit find a powerful apprentice in Exar Kun. And just as Nadd killed his lord Sadow, Kun destroyed Nadd's spirit here on Yavin 4. These notable deaths likely served to further imbue the moon's temples with dark power, further fueling the barbaric Massassi--as well as the succession of Dark Lords who would later reside here.

I think Kun saw what Naga Sadow had accomplished here with Sith alchemy and architecture and decided he could do better. He forced the Massassi to build new temples, but this time with a focus on complementing and augmenting the dark side. Kun even went so far as to use various technologies to manipulate the Force in ways that I can't say I understand. I can't, but I would like to....

In fact, they go so far as to state that by the time Kun was done with it, it was so powerful that not even the WOL could cleanse it:

The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part IV wrote:A few hundred years ago, the Jedi Order thought they could cleanse Yavin 4 of its dark influence. They were more aggressive then. I'm actually impressed. The Jedi bombarded the world from orbit with a destructive manifestation of light side power in the hopes it would free the moon from its dark embrace.

The attacking Jedi destroyed much of the life on Yavin 4, which they later worked to restore to its previous state. They thought they'd won, that they'd removed the influence of the dark side. How wrong they were. The Massassi are still here. The dark side is still present. I would not be surprised if Exar Kun's spirit remains, waiting for someone--a Jedi like myself, perhaps--to find him....

Nor is Kun's mark on the world exactly new to the mythos, given quotes such as:

New Essential Guide to Characters wrote:After obliterating Nadd's lingering spirit, Exar Kun made Yavin Four the new fulcrum of Sith power.

Star Wars Spy Game: Declassified wrote:A dark presence permeated the very jungles (Luke would many years later encounter the spirit of the bygone Dark Lord Exar Kun trapped in the Great Temple)

So unless I've managed to forget something crucial from the dialogue (kek), I don't see where you're getting literally any of these supposed indications that literally 1% of Vitiate DWARFS and SCARES THE SHIT OUT OF the Sith spirits. Not even slightly.

Again, Vitiate is very easily in a better position than the Sith are to replenish himself and them being far more familiar with his presence than all of these spirits who have only just woken up and who they have never met before. Does not mean he DWARFS them.

As far as the complacency of the Sith spirits is concerned, there's a hundred different ways to look at it:

1.Kun may well indeed be a partner of Vitiate's given what we see from the tablets in Reclaimed Treasure.

2.The ancients may not care given that both the Machine Core and Vitiate were both concerned with draining life, not killing spirits.

3.The Ancient Threat rising may in fact have been manufactured by the Sith spirits for some other motive we don't know of, perhaps to facilitate their return.

But on a more pertinent note, you seem to have forgotten that long before the whole Temple of Sacrifice was a thing. Sadow's secretive chambers, which had apparatus designed specifically for giving flesh to spirits, was already there. So no, the Temple of Sacrifice, which everyone and their grandmother was fighting over, was not in fact all that special. So yet again, you're proposing answers to questions never asked by the narrative and clearly never intended to be declarative by the writers you touched upon before.

Assuming there's yet more of a response, I'll attempt to find time given my ever-increasingly constrained schedule.
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