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Tybalt
Tybalt

Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW)

on January 9th 2021, 4:54 pm
@DarthAnt66

My thought process was: the Sith exist -> the Sith are believed extinct -> Maul is proof the Sith are back and deadlier than ever. The "back" and "ever" there seem in reference to how they were prior to being "believed extinct." Including the Banites might be a little weird--it would mean the narrator is both emphasizing the limited perspective that the Sith were "believed extinct" and that Maul is "proof" they are "back" while nevertheless also sharing omniscient knowledge to conclude Maul's display is "proof" he's better than all the hidden Sith, too. It's possible, but it seems a bit convoluted. So, I was applying it to all the ancient Sith (as of 1999) but not necessarily the Banites. Note I have Maul above all the Banites besides Palpatine and maybe Plagueis anyway, though, so for me the distinction isn't that relevant.

The TPM Flapbook is supplementary material for the film though, and Yoda directly refers to the Rule of Two in that film. This isn't the doctrine that Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness followed.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW)

on January 9th 2021, 4:57 pm
@Tybalt: The premise that their was a large Sith Empire with dozens/thousands/millions of Sith was backstory that Lucas created for Episode I specifically. The film makes no mention of it, so Lucas relied on expanded universe works like the TPM adult novel, Behind the Magic DVD, and other resources to convey this. For example:

"The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.

He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to ~ than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends strength and yields control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.

In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.

All but one.

Darth Maul shifted impatiently. The younger Sith had not yet learned his Master's patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them their victory now over the Jedi.

The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adopted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way-old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to be a Master in his turn, then to find his own apprentice, and so to carry on their work. But there would only be two at anyone time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves. The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane. A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last. 

This is from the TPM adult novel, all directly from Lucas. Accordingly, this pop-up book could definitely be speaking to this new lore.
Tybalt
Tybalt

Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW)

on January 9th 2021, 5:05 pm
@DarthAnt66 Interesting. That doesn't match the rest of the lore however, and has since been retconned when Darth Bane and his Sith Order were introduced in Canon as well.
DarthAnt66
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on January 9th 2021, 5:10 pm
@Tybalt: Hm, in what way is it retconned? It seems the timeline that Lucas--and so these supplement books--wanted to convey is: There were many Sith -> Darth Bane created the Rule of Two -> The Jedi learn of the Rule of Two but Darth Bane is believed death (hence how Yoda knows of the Rule of Two while also believing the Sith to be extinct. This may have originally just been a plot-hole, but DB:ROT shows how this is possible.) -> Maul is proof the Sith never died. This timeline is true even today. The difference is that Lucas conceived the Sith as only a two-thousand year old organization, and so perhaps the pop-up book is likewise speaking to that idea (Maul is proof the Sith are deadlier than ever compared to the New Sith Empire, effectively), but I think that argument is different from the other arguments being made here.
Tybalt
Tybalt

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on January 9th 2021, 5:13 pm
@DarthAnt66 Retconned in that the Sith are significantly older than 2000 years old. And yeah, that "argument" is in reference to your post just now. That didn't factor into my original argument.
DarthAnt66
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on January 9th 2021, 5:19 pm
@Tybalt: Right. So, following from my earlier points, I do think the wording indicates Maul is deadlier than ever compared to this pre-Bane Sith Empire. Whether the "ever" extends only to Lucas' two-thousand year old Sith or all the way to the ancient Sith like Kun, Nadd, Sadow, etc. is definitely debatable. I will say, though, that the "default" position might be the latter as it follows a LFL source would be expected to follow the LFL universe rather than the Lucas universe. On the flip side, though, perhaps you can say the ambiguity there--especially coupled with the low-quality of the source--makes it unreliable to use as an absolute bind on the LFL Sith.
Tybalt
Tybalt

Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW)

on January 9th 2021, 5:22 pm
@DarthAnt66 Yes, but by that argument should "ever" not include the Sith between Bane/Zannah and Maul/Sidious?
DarthAnt66
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Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW)

on January 9th 2021, 5:25 pm
@Tybalt: I mean, there might be multiple valid semantical interpretations of the quote. I outlined mine on the last page why I don't think it would include the Banites, but I'm not saying it definitely doesn't either. Perhaps a linguist could help, lol. At the absolute bare minimum, I think the wording includes the New Sith Empire, though. And if you want to argue this LFL source is beholding itself to the LFL universe and not the Lucas universe (which is probably the default position but not necessarily true), then it includes the Ancients, too. I know @Master Azronger or @The Ellimist certainly would would support it extending to the Ancients, but they're not here right now. ):


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on January 9th 2021, 5:32 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Wording)
Tybalt
Tybalt

Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Gravid vs Obi-Wan Kenobi (TCW)

on January 9th 2021, 5:32 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@DarthAnt66 My semantical interpretation would be that from the phrase "The Sith were believed extinct", the key part is "were believed". That was an assumption that was wrong. The Sith were in fact just hidden, and the newly revealed Maul proves that they are "deadlier than ever". This would logically mean that Maul is deadlier than the Sith before him that remained hidden, which is the Banite line.
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