Marka Ragnos Respect Thread

[Trayus Marauder]

Marka Ragnos Respect Thread




"All hail the memory of Marka Ragnos! His legacy will live for centuries among the Sith people and their rulers!"


Overall power

Marka Ragnos is stated to be the most powerful of the Ancient Sith up until (and including) his time. This includes, but is not limited to Sith such as Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Ajunta Pall and Karness Muur:

Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith — the most powerful of the most powerful. But now he is dead.  

Ragnos being the most powerful Sith of this era is also confirmed in the following source:

Meanwhile, on the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, MARKA RAGNOS.

Ragnos also holds additional evidence to justify his superiority over Sadow and Kressh as can be seen when Ragnos’ spirit is enough to make the duo kneel:



Ludo Kressh verifies Sadow’s inferiority even further:

"I am vindicated! The great Dark Lord has come to crush you for your sacrilege, Naga Sadow."  

Ragnos is noted as being a master of the dark side of the force, a mastery that is also described as frightening even by Ancient Sith standards:

The ruling Dark Lord of the Sith is a master of the dark side of the Force.

Finally, a Sith Lord arose who exemplified the virtues of the Sith. Marka Ragnos was an imposing, merciless figure, a master of the Force and the arts of war.

Ragnos was a half-breed Sith, a warlord of tremendous physical power and a frightening grasp of the dark side of the Force.

Kreia also verifies the power of Ragnos and is in awe of his legacy:

 {barely detectable awe} “Before you is the tomb of the great Sith Lord Marka Ragnos, a half-breed who possessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the Force."

Luke Skywalker confesses that if Ragnos were to be successfully resurrected, it would take the collective power of his Jedi order to defeat him. Considering the power that Luke held on his own at this period of time, this is an extremely impressive accolade:

"If Ragnos is resurrected, there's no telling what he might be able to do. It will take all of our strength to stop him."

Odan-Urr acknowledges that the mere influence of Ragnos is able to make the force itself tremble:



Vitiate notes that the power of Ancient Sith could be a threat to his power in the event that they return. As previously established, Ragnos is the best of the Ancient Sith so the fact that Vitiate is even afraid of his inferiors speaks volumes concerning the threat of Ragnos. Keep in mind, Vitiate is a more than capable threat in his own right, able to defeat Revan in combat among many other impressive feats:

The Emperor knew the spirits of the ancient Sith Lords could be a threat to his power when he returned to the known galaxy a century later…

Combat capabilities:

Augmentation:

Marka Ragnos was capable of wielding a Sith sword which is noted as being heavier to handle than a standard lightsaber (though it does possess similar properties). These weapons are noted as being a reservoir of dark side power:

These swords are heavy and require two hands to wield, except for the most mammoth of the Massassi who can handle them with one hand. The swords can deflect plasma bolts and withstand the energy of a lightsabre blade. Each acts as a reservoir of dark side power.

Ragnos held tremendous physical strength due to the power of his force augmentation as well as biological advantages:

Ragnos was a half-breed Sith, a warlord of tremendous physical power and a frightening grasp of the dark side of the Force.

 {barely detectable awe} “Before you is the tomb of the great Sith Lord Marka Ragnos, a half-breed who possessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the Force."

Ragnos had the capability of beating his pet Terentatek on a nightly basis with his bare hands:

Left to guard the tomb serving as the resting place for its master, Marka Ragnos, the beast has dwelled in darkness for centuries. Legend tells that Ragnos beat his pet nightly, warping it with the Force until it was a creature of pure hate and anguish.

The terentatek was a beast that even the Ancient Sith feared. It is also important to note that this terentatek was warped further by Ragnos to be even more fuelled by hate thus making it even deadlier. Details of the beast are offered here:

Among the most recent creations of the Kissai is the terentatek. What a marvel of raw gluttony! The terentatek feds on Force-rich blood and thus hunts Sith purebloods exclusively. The Sith use them against enemies yet fear the inevitable retaliation.

The terentatek of Ragnos was so powerful that it was a significant source of dark energy. Considering Korriban’s status as a very potent nexus, this is highly impressive. What is just as impressive is the fact that its death caused a tremor in the force:

"The beast of Marka Ragnos was a great source of dark energy here on Korriban. When it was slain, there was a tremor in the Force. Darth Baras felt that termor and has become aware of you. He demands an audience."

Offensive force capabilities:

Despite being empowered by the nexus of Yavin 4, Darth Nox is hurled back by the spirit of Marka Ragnos. Needless to say, in a living body, Ragnos would have been capable of far, far more powerful examples of telekinesis:



The following quote expresses Ragnos’ capability of using force drain and lightning. While this is not exactly new information considering the previously established force mastery that Ragnos possesses, this quote does reveal that Ragnos had the knowledge (and the power) to affect stars as well as replicate Vitiate’s planet draining ritual:

Through their focus on these elements of the Force, the Sith have developed terrifying powers, such as the ability to drain a being of its life force, or unleash their hatred as crackling bolts of energy. The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld. Ancient Sith were also masters of these arts - Lord Naga Sadow was able to affect the stars themselves, and caused the red supergiant Primus Goluud to go nova.

Marka Ragnos had the capability to offer clear insight into future events similar to Traya. This is seen with the prediction that Ragnos makes in relation to Naga Sadow and his life/legacy:

Someday he would usher in a new Sith golden age, just as Dark Lord Marka Ragnos had foretold.

Ragnos had mastered the ability of essence transfer as he demonstrated by taking over the body of Tavion Axmis. It should also be noted that Ragnos held so much power that Tavion’s body was unable to sustain itself while possessed by Ragnos nor could her body come close to utilising the full power of Ragnos:

“Dead. Ragnos had possessed her. Her body couldn’t withstand the corruption. When I destroyed the scepter and Ragnos left her body, there was nothing left.”

Ragnos has shown to be very capable when it comes to using Sith sorcery. One example of this is the ability to channel the power of dead Sith lords:

[Marka Ragnos has] the ability to channel the spirits of deceased Sith lords, using their power to supplement [his] own - but at the risk of becoming their puppet.

While this is respectable, the more terrifying application of Ragnos’ sorcery is his creation of Sith artifacts. A couple of examples include:

The Marka Ragnos gauntlets:

Ancient but still intact, these gloves appear to be made of black scales; they pulse with a dark power.

The talisman which had the capability of flinging back Darth Nox:




However, none is more impressive than the Scepter of Marka Ragnos. The scepter is capable of numerous impressive feats such as:

Casually oneshotting Kyle Katarn:



Blasting through the tomb walls with utter ease:



It has the capability to siphon a force nexus:

"But the area around the temple felt strange, like its dark side aura was gone.”

“The Disciples of Ragnos are getting bold. They’ve managed to siphon Force energy from every site that was mentioned in my journal. We still don’t know what it is they’re planning to do with the energy though.”

It even had the capability of giving non-force sensitives a connection to the dark side, transforming them into fighters who had dueling capability as well as the ability to use various dark side techniques effectively. Keep in mind that the Disciples of Ragnos had substantial numbers so the Scepter would have been fuelling hundreds of fighters at least:

“If the scepter can store the Force, maybe it can release it too. Tavion could be using it to empower her followers.”  

“It seems they lost their powers when the scepter was destroyed.”  

Marka Ragnos standing above the other members of the Ancient Sith and having a range of impressive feats is already impressive but is even more so when you consider how Ancients compare to other characters ranging from very capable combatants to some of the most powerful figures in galactic history.

Kreia and Meetra Surik


While the general superiority of the Ancient Sith over Sith within the Kotor era is a general theme of the game, this section will be specifically for dueling related comparisons. To begin with, here is an infamous quote where Kreia compares their dueling prowess in comparison with the Ancient Sith as a whole. While this is spoken in front of Tulak Hord’s tomb, Kreia references old masters as a general term that would apply to a wide range of Ancient Sith:

"This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived. If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

Kreia is capable of utilising all 7 forms of lightsaber combat as well as understanding the strengths and weaknesses of each. This capability highlights her level of skill:

"The Jedi practice many forms, many styles of lightsaber combat. It is good to know them, but not to rely on them."

There are seven main forms of lightsaber combat. Every Jedi has a favourite, but the most skilled can switch between all the styles depending on the situation.

Kreia admits that Meetra shares her dueling prowess:

"There is nothing more for me to teach you. You know as much of battle as I."

So in summary, two individuals who possess the capability to utilise the seven forms of combat and understand the intricate details of dueling strengths and weaknesses are dismissed as mere children in comparison to what the master can do. And as mentioned before, this quote covers all of the Sith within this era. So this do is vastly inferior to the mass of Ancients who are vastly inferior to Ragnos. This places Ragnos’ dueling on a level where he is well beyond even the most skilled of lightsaber combatants.

Darth Nihilus


While Darth Nihilus is an absolute powerhouse in terms of force capability and drain/telekinetic potency, he is also inferior to many of the Ancient Sith as established by Kreia’s assessment in KOTOR2:

"The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything to it.”

To extend on how impressive Nihilus is, Kreia offers the following quote which encompasses all characters introduced within the events of KOTOR 2:

“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

To verify these quotes as legitimate, we have two key pieces of evidence. Firstly, we have the fact that Kreia has phenomenal telepathic capabilities that stretch to the point of being able to predict events in the future ranging from the span of a standard lifetime (as seen when observing the fate of the companions) all the way to the events of Revenge of the Sith (as seen when Kreia determines the fate of the republic). Considering this, it is well within reason that Kreia would have full awareness of Nihilus’ capabilities and limitations. The full vision can be found here:



In addition to this, Chris Avellone has given explicit confirmation that Kreia’s judgment is entirely accurate which cements the accolades she provides:

Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read.

What is especially impressive about these accolades is that in Kreia’s assessment of Nihilus’ capabilities, she note that she fears he may be rivaling Ancient Sith. Firstly, this does not even necessarily place Nihilus equal to any Ancient Sith. Secondly, she does not list Sith by name so we can conclude that she is referring to the average Ancient Sith. So at best, Nihilus can rival the nameless masses of Ancient Sith that lived within the era of Ragnos. The very same ones who Ragnos was able to thwart on a consistent basis to protect his empire and the ones who scale below Sadow and most certainly scale below Ragnos. This means that some of Nihilus’ incredible feats such as his mass draining and his telekinetic manipulation of his flagship could very easily be replicated by Ragnos.


Darth Plagueis (67BBY)


As many who are familiar with SW lore are aware, Plagueis is a powerhouse Sith who not only has a range of respectable feats but also possesses lengthy Banite scaling where he scales above all prior Sith of that line beginning with Bane and ending with Tenebrous. As such, by establishing that Ragnos is above Plagueis, he would also gain benefit from this scaling line (as well as the most obvious benefits of being above Plagueis). To demonstrate Ragnos’ superiority, we have Plagueis himself confessing that he is inferior to being like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun. Considering Ragnos’ superiority to Sadow, he would also be classified as superior as a result of this admission:

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Considering that Plagueis formed his assessment based on multiple accounts and information from holocrons and them all leading to the same conclusion, we can conclude that this assessment has been thoroughly examined and confirmed. Regardless of whether beings like Kun, Sadow, and Ragnos gained their power through natural power or as a direct result of the era of knowledge and power they emerged from, their superiority is established regardless.

In addition to this we also have judgment passed down from Ragnos himself when Plagueis visited Korriban:

I beheld a vision of the Sith Lord Marka Ragnos. The apparition challenged my claim to the Sith title and railed against my plan to dismantle the traditions of Korriban. But the vision of Ragnos would not answer my questions nor my delineated inquiries. He snarled and disappeared in a whirl of smoke.

Based on this interaction, we can conclude that Ragnos himself did not deem Plagueis as worthy of the Sith title for obvious reasons when you consider how Plagueis is inferior to beings like Sadow. It is highly unlikely that Ragnos would be pleased with an inferior being leading the Sith legacy, especially with a grasp of the force that would be more limited than those within the era of Ancient Sith.

Darth Sidious (0ABY)


As is widely known, Darth Sidious is one of the most fearsome Sith Lords in history. However, Ragnos possesses scaling that places him well above Sidious as of 0ABY. To understand this scaling, we must observe an event that took place at the time on Korriban.

Shortly after the Battle of Yavin, Droga rescued his cowed master after Palpatine had enraged the mummified Sith by demanding dark side knowledge. Palpatine recovered from the assault in a bacta tank on Imperial Center while Droga retrieved one of the Emperor’s clone.

Not only do we have a third party detailing this event but Sidious himself confesses to it happening:

The spirits of Korriban are quite real. Indeed, on one occasion they nearly killed me. But I agree with my Master in this observation-the dead Dark Lords are evasive in their speech and are ultimately treacherous.

This interaction is very interesting for two key reasons, both of which points towards Ragnos and other Ancients being superior to ANH Sidious.

Firstly, Sidious needing rescuing from an Ancient beatdown is impressive for Ancient power scaling but even more impressive when you consider the context of the quotes and their setting.

Firstly, Korriban underwent a massive shift over the course of history. Here is Korriban’s power around the time of Muur:

We touched down on Korriban-the world that screams the loudest for those who can hear the dark side’s voice.

And here is Korriban around the time of 0ABY:

Korriban has lost potency over the last 7000 years, but it still whispers of dark secrets.

So Korriban has progressed from being the most powerful dark side nexus in the galaxy to a shadow of its former self. The metaphorical (and possibly literal) screams have transformed into whispers. Korriban objectively cannot empower dark siders as well as it could in its prime. As such, it stands to reason that spirits of Korriban are less potent overall. So Sidious was utterly defeated by Sith spirits who have declined by thousands of years. What makes this even worse for Sidious is that the Sith spirits are nameless so we have no obligation to assume that Sidious was attacked by a prominent figure like Kressh, Sadow, etc.

To form a rough scaling to explain the hierarchy of Ancient Sith we would have something like this:

Ragnos>>Sadow>other assorted living Ancient Sith>assorted Sith spirits during the reign of Ragnos>Assorted Sith spirits during 0ABY

Rather than bog this down with a wave of paragraphs, I’ll offer this simplistic scaling summary:
-Ragnos’ superiority confirmed by accolades placing him higher as well as Sadow bending the knee at the mere spirit of Ragnos
-Sadow being other ancients as he and Kressh were the best of the Empire
-Living Sith being above spirits as spirits have historically been weaker than their living version
-Ragnos era spirits being above 0ABY spirits due to the decline in Korriban’s power which the spirits would draw from partially


Secondly, Sidious makes a note that he agrees with an assessment that Plagueis made where they both deem the Ancient Sith as evasive and treacherous. Yet this assessment is actively debunked by other showings. For example, Ragnos has displayed two cases where he is more than happy to distribute information and offer clarity in his speech. The following images are samples taken from events where Ragnos has offered clear advice and guidance:













Based on the difference in interactions seen here, it seems that Ragnos (and other Sith) are more than happy to respond to those who they deem have power fit to carry on the Sith legacy while those they deem unworthy get ignored like Plagueis did or even attacked as seen when Sidious dared to make demands.

Now some may try to point out that Sidious has quotes listing him as the greatest Sith of all time or strongest dark sider in an effort to deny this piece of phenomenal scaling. However, these supremacy quotes do not have any bearing on the assessment of legends content as Leland Chee has confirmed in the following screenshots:

[Primarch]

I love seeing respect for the ancients. I’ll give it a read later.

[Rei]

Great thread and pretty interesting scalings.

[MPModerator | Champion of Darkness]

Nice

[S_W_LeGenD]

Impressive work.

[darthbane77]

Good RT. Just a couple things, Sidious being taken down by potentially dozens to hundreds of Sith spirits isn't indicative of any one Ancient Sith Lord being superior to him, to assume so just makes no sense. That isn't to say Ragnos wouldn't be a potential threat to Sidious (Sidious considered even Vader, who is vastly inferior to Sidious himself, at least a potential threat), but the scaling is far from solid enough to make the argument that Ragnos is definitively superior to any version of Sidious.

The other point, which is smaller, is that the quote that says Vitiate considered the spirits of the ancients to be a threat to his power says exactly that, they're a threat to his power, not necessarily to him personally, which is honestly the likely explanation, given what Tenebrae is capable of as seen in "KotET" and "Echoes of Oblivion."

Good work though.

[VictreebelVictr]

Question, do the quotes claiming that Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful possibly mean that he was just the most powerful of his own time?  What does that have to do with Sith Lords that came before him like Tulak Hord or Karness Muur?

[KingofBladesLevel Three]

A fair point. How will the maker of this thread counter, I wonder

[Trayus Marauder]

Thanks everyone for your support.

Just to address a few criticisms/questions:

1. The idea of Sidious being taken down by dozens or hundreds of Ancient Sith isn't exactly supported. Considering how minimally Ancient Sith interact with others as a whole, it's pretty unlikely that a being like Sidious would have a large group of spirits meeting him, especially given that they are deemed evasive in their speech which would also logically translate to their overall approachability. Even if we were to assume that it was more than one spirit, the spirits as of 0ABY would scale well under prime Ancient spirits who scale below Sadow who scale below Ragnos. The sheer disparity between 0ABY Korriban spirits and Ragnos means that even a large group would pale in comparison.

2. Ragnos being a threat to Vitiate's power and to him personally aren't mutually exclusive. After all, if the Ancients were not a threat to Vitiate in terms of overall force strength then Vitiate would not see them as a threat to his various established power structures seeing as he could kill the Ancients swiftly in theory thus rendering the threat null and void.

3. The most powerful of the most powerful quote is referencing his Sith status and then how he is the most powerful right afterward which suggests that he is the most powerful (his status) of the most powerful (the Sith as a collective). In addition, we have the Chronicles quote which confirms he is the most powerful Sith up to and including that time.

[VictreebelVictr]

Thanks everyone for your support.

Just to address a few criticisms/questions:

3. The most powerful of the most powerful quote is referencing his Sith status and then how he is the most powerful right afterward which suggests that he is the most powerful (his status) of the most powerful (the Sith as a collective). In addition, we have the Chronicles quote which confirms he is the most powerful Sith up to and including that time.

I appreciate you answering my question.

[Trayus Marauder]

Thanks everyone for your support.

Just to address a few criticisms/questions:

3. The most powerful of the most powerful quote is referencing his Sith status and then how he is the most powerful right afterward which suggests that he is the most powerful (his status) of the most powerful (the Sith as a collective). In addition, we have the Chronicles quote which confirms he is the most powerful Sith up to and including that time.

I appreciate you answering my question.

All good. I'm happy to answer questions and elaborate on points as needed.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

I find it funny how post-Leviathan Revan and the Jedi Exile as of the Onderonian Civil War can complete their missions on Korriban whilst facing a thousand generic Sith spirits there pressing in on them.



But apparently this explains why Sheev was cowed.

[S_W_LeGenD]

2. Ragnos being a threat to Vitiate's power and to him personally aren't mutually exclusive. After all, if the Ancients were not a threat to Vitiate in terms of overall force strength then Vitiate would not see them as a threat to his various established power structures seeing as he could kill the Ancients swiftly in theory thus rendering the threat null and void.

Sith spirits are dangerous because of their corrupting influence - they could possess a living being and strive for lost glory. Notable examples provided below.

1. Freedon Nadd's spirit corrupted Exar Kun.
2. Marka Ragnos's spirit brought Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma together to establish the first Brotherhood of Darkness.
3. Naga Sadow's spirit corrupted and possessed a promising Jedi Padawan Eison Gynt, using him to attack his Jedi Master Barel Oviar*.
4. Darth Vax's spirit manipulated and eventually possessed her powerful son Darth Arrid while he was in the Dark Council - surprising his peers.

*More information: "Possessed by the dark spirit of Naga Sadow, Gynt attacked his former master in broad daylight. The brutal battle between the two was staged with all of the Republic watching. Gynt's borrowed powers were formidable, but Master Ovair won the day." - Jedi Master Gnost-Dural

The above are the reasons why Tenebrae perceived Sith spirits as a threat to his rule and would imprison them in his Dark Temple, transforming this structure into one of the most dangerous and haunted places in the galaxy by extension. Few Sith were bold enough to explore this structure due to chances of not returning.

Tenebrae had no trouble dealing with any Sith spirit in person however:

Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Tenebrae managed to imprison Darth Traya's powerful spirit as well but this dark entity was held in his space station The Arcanum.

Marka Ragnos's spirit would have figured that Tenebrae would seek to imprison and/or destroy him, and therefore chose Kun to lead the Sith. However, this could be a chance interaction since amulets worn by both Kun and Ulic interacted to manifest him in the setting of the ongoing duel.

[Trayus Marauder]

@S_W_LeGenD

What you've provided honestly doesn't debunk or counter anything I've said.

The corrupting influence of Sith spirits wouldn't be a threat if Vitiate was able to defeat them. The fact that Ancient Sith could theoretically run around unchecked suggests that Vitiate would not be able to best them in combat. Or at the very least, he would have a very difficult time defeating them. As I explained before, threats to power structures and personal power are not mutually exclusive. The threat to Vitiate quote is a reference to their threat towards him as a whole.

The quote you've provided offers no captive names so we have no reason to assume they are Ancient Sith, especially given the threat status they have been assigned. As for Traya's spirit, this has no bearing on Ancient Sith given that Traya is hopelessly outclassed even by generic Ancient Sith considering her inferiority to Nihilus.

Marka Ragnos choosing Kun is related to who he deemed the most worthy heir (and the most powerful). As you noted, this could also be linked to the amulet interaction. The idea that Ragnos did not choose Vitiate out of fear of being imprisoned is an unsupported claim.

[VictreebelVictr]

@Trayus Marauder

Do you believe that, based on the good work you published recently, Naga Sadow surpassed Ragnos's power at some point in time?

[Trayus Marauder]

@Trayus Marauder

Do you believe that, based on the good work you published recently, Naga Sadow surpassed Ragnos's power at some point in time?

I'd argue that he never did.

1. Nothing really suggests that he did
2. Kun was more than willing to obey the will of Ragnos. Meanwhile, he killed Nadd when Nadd tried to make Kun follow his will. (Nadd scaling above Sadow being key here)

[VictreebelVictr]

I am currently trying to find a better place for Marka Ragnos on my tier list. I am sure you know how difficult it can be to rank the Ancient Sith as they are rather obscure characters.

Did Kun truly know about Ragnos and Nadd though? I thought Kun was more comfortable with being a Sith the time he met Ragnos compared to the time he obliterated the spirit of Nadd.

Do you think Nadd surpassed Ragnos?

Apologies for all the questions, I am just trying to find my place here, and you seem to know what you are talking about.

[S_W_LeGenD]

@Trayus Marauder

My response:

[PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light]

Ragnos being a threat to Vitiate's power and to him personally aren't mutually exclusive. After all, if the Ancients were not a threat to Vitiate in terms of overall force strength then Vitiate would not see them as a threat to his various established power structures seeing as he could kill the Ancients swiftly in theory thus rendering the threat null and void.

The corrupting influence of Sith spirits wouldn't be a threat if Vitiate was able to defeat them. The fact that Ancient Sith could theoretically run around unchecked suggests that Vitiate would not be able to best them in combat. Or at the very least, he would have a very difficult time defeating them.

I don't think what you are saying here is necessarily true. You're inferring that since Gnost-Dural claimed the ancients were a threat to Vitiate, then that would imply that Vitiate could not easily defeat them in combat, since if he could, then they wouldn't be a threat. However, there are examples in the lore of this not necessarily being the case. Zakuul Knights are stated to be a threat to Valkorion's power, but they are obviously infinitely inferior to him. Luke is stated to be a threat to Sheev in the OT, but Sheev is clearly far beyond Luke. Vaylin is stated to be a threat to Valkorion, but as we've seen, she is clearly nowhere near him. There are plenty of other similar examples, and I'm failing to see why this case is necessarily different. Claiming so would require additional evidence, which hasn't been provided. Also, it should really be noted that the quote in question is from Gnost-Dural, who knows next to nothing about the Emperor, so trying to use his words to scale people to Vitiate doesn't really work.

[Trayus Marauder]

@VictreebelVictr

No need to apologise, questions and discussion are what this place is for and these sorts of discussions were certainly one of my objectives when creating the RT.

To answer your question, I don't think Nadd ever surpassed Ragnos. Kun didn't kill Nadd due to being less comfortable with his Sith status, he killed Nadd because Nadd was trying to push his vision onto Kun. Yet when Ragnos did the same thing, Kun was more willing to accept it.


@S_W_LeGenD

First, how did you make that spoiler? I'm not too familiar with formatting on sites like this and that would really be a space saver.

Given I'm responding to multiple people, I'll keep my counters/questions/points brief:

1. Sith spirits are able to be destroyed and you said yourself that Vitiate would be able to destroy these spirits. So the point about them being a threat on multiple levels stands. Your point about Sith spirits being able to influence underlings has no consequence on Vitiate given all of the Sith that serve him could easily be disposed of.
2. Citation for Dromund Kaas spirits being equal or even comparable to notable Ancient Sith like Sadow, Kressh or Ragnos himself?
3. Traya may be powerful but being above Traya doesn't even remotely qualify you to be above Ragnos (or any ancient sith for that matter)
4. Given Ragnos chose Kun, we can assume he was more powerful than Vitiate at that period of time at the very least. Ragnos would choose the most worthy and powerful heir, even if his competition is looked upon favorably.

@Praxis

The central flaw in your argument here is that you are trying to say that because you have examples of quotes where being a threat doesn't translate to personal threat, all threat quotes must play by this rule which doesn't make too much sense. It's better to opt for a case by case approach. Assess context then determine the form of threat that is being discussed. Given the context of Ragnos being a powerhouse that scales above powerhouses like Plagueis, Nihilus, etc, the idea of Ragnos being a threat to Vitiate in a battle sense isn't far-fetched.

If we watch the full report, Gnost-Dural's conclusion is pretty logical. Vitiate sends an infiltrator to stop Sadow and to prevent a threat to his power. If Sadow were not a threat to his personal power, then why send an underling to take care of Sadow as a strike to prevent his return. Considering the time period, Sadow wouldn't have been able to call in enough support to have a sizeable empire given most Sith and Sith supporters belonged to Vitiate. The only logical explanation is that a resurrected Sadow would be able to threaten his personal power at that point in time.

A have to make an essential point here though. My point there was to establish the Ancients are above Vitiate around that period of time so before Tenebrae took on the persona of Valkorion. For example, I'd say that Ragnos>novel Vitiate by that quote but Valkorion or Echoes Tenebrae are not affected by that quote.

[S_W_LeGenD]

@Trayus Marauder

No issue with briefs. Thanks.

My response:

[VictreebelVictr]

@VictreebelVictr
To answer your question, I don't think Nadd ever surpassed Ragnos. Kun didn't kill Nadd due to being less comfortable with his Sith status, he killed Nadd because Nadd was trying to push his vision onto Kun. Yet when Ragnos did the same thing, Kun was more willing to accept it.

Is it possible that Kun went along with Ragnos due to the fact that Ragnos was deeming Exar as the Dark Lord of the Sith? This seems more rewarding in comparison to Nadd's vision, which was to only help himself.



Seems to me that Exar simply recognizes Ragnos, and might not know how powerful he was.

[PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light]

The central flaw in your argument here is that you are trying to say that because you have examples of quotes where being a threat doesn't translate to personal threat, all threat quotes must play by this rule which doesn't make too much sense. It's better to opt for a case by case approach. Assess context then determine the form of threat that is being discussed.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I agree with you that it should be taken on a case by case basis. I was pointing out that your conclusion doesn't always follow your condition and provided examples of such cases. It's on you to show why your conclusion would follow your condition in this specific case since we know that someone being constituted as a threat to another doesn't always imply that they are peers.

Given the context of Ragnos being a powerhouse that scales above powerhouses like Plagueis, Nihilus, etc, the idea of Ragnos being a threat to Vitiate in a battle sense isn't far-fetched.

Regardless of the scaling being true or not, Vitiate even as of the Revan novel gets most of that scaling and more if we operate under your scaling.

If we watch the full report, Gnost-Dural's conclusion is pretty logical. Vitiate sends an infiltrator to stop Sadow and to prevent a threat to his power. If Sadow were not a threat to his personal power, then why send an underling to take care of Sadow as a strike to prevent his return. Considering the time period, Sadow wouldn't have been able to call in enough support to have a sizeable empire given most Sith and Sith supporters belonged to Vitiate. The only logical explanation is that a resurrected Sadow would be able to threaten his personal power at that point in time.

Gnost-Dural's conclusion is logical, sure, but you're extending his conclusion to something beyond what he claimed. I've already shown you how someone being constituted as a threat to another doesn't always imply that they are peers. In fact, you can make the case that Vitiate already scales above Sadow through Revan, who scales above Malak, who scales above Nadd, who scales above Sadow, and the gaps between these guys aren't small either. While this scaling utilizes supremacy quotes, you have already used supremacy quotes yourself for Ragnos, so any objection to that is an objection to your own RT ultimately.

It honestly puzzles me that you recognize Ragnos supremacy quotes but then try and throw away Sheev's by appealing to Chee so that you can uncap Ragnos. You can't eat your cake and have it too. While I think it's fine to say that supremacy quotes aren't strictly binding, that doesn't mean that they are meaningless, and I think you would agree given you used Ragnos supremacy quotes in your RT. It doesn't make sense to throw out all of Sheev's supremacy quotes in favor of an indirect comparison between Sheev and Ragnos through unnamed ancient spirits on Korriban. Published sources saying that Sheev is better than Ragnos is ultimately going to be more compelling evidence for Sheev's case than the spirits comparison is going to be for Ragnos' case since that comparison is exceptionally ambiguous and Sheev's quotes aren't.

A have to make an essential point here though. My point there was to establish the Ancients are above Vitiate around that period of time so before Tenebrae took on the persona of Valkorion. For example, I'd say that Ragnos>novel Vitiate by that quote but Valkorion or Echoes Tenebrae are not affected by that quote.

Why though? What does Ragnos have that Vitiate doesn't that would suggest Ragnos > Vitiate as of the novel? The Sadow comparison doesn't work since we can scale Vitiate above Sadow. Even if Ragnos scales above some of the most powerful ancients, so do some of the guys Vitiate scales above. Ragnos scaling above early Plagueis isn't evidence of Ragnos being > Vitiate either since Vitiate already scales above guys who scale above early Plagueis. Vitiate already scales far beyond Meetra and Traya too as we see in the novel, and if we use your own logic then Vitiate should also scale above Nihilus through his vast superiority over Sadow. So what does Ragnos have that would suggest that he is an equal or more powerful than Vitiate as of the novel, let alone 200 years after that in the events of Dural's journal? This is, of course, assuming that all of your scaling is true outside of the Sheev part since we haven't even really dissected any of that yet.

[Trayus Marauder]

@VictreebelVictr

Kun would have become the leading Sith at the time even if he knocked aside help from Ragnos. And going into the Ulic fight, an alliance was not in Kun's plan as we can tell from this quote:

Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith spirits, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos.

Despite Kun's intentions, he gets visited by Ragnos and then essentially does a 180 and ceases to fight with Ulic and follows Ragnos' direction. Considering Kun was unwilling to follow anyone prior, this speaks volumes in relation to the respect Kun holds for Ragnos which suggests that he held more power and prestige than Nadd. On top of this, Ragnos also has more impressive accolades that go beyond what we've seen from Nadd. That being said, Nadd is one of the Ancients that is the closest to Ragnos in power.


@S_W_LeGenD

While it is true that other Sith could inspire legions, Ancients were not a threat for that reason given the sheer limitations in relation to available Sith friendly resources. After all, Revan intended to leave most republic structures intact so that they could be used to fuel his forces. That's how bad the shortage was and that shortage would only become worse over time. Vitiate pretty much had a monopoly.

Vitiate's supremacy statements are of no importance. As I covered in the RT, mass supremacy quotes are considered null and void by Chee.

You'll have to elaborate on your Kallig argument. All you've said is that because Vitiate handled Kallig, he could do the same to Sadow and Ragnos despite the fact that Kallig is not comparable to them whatsoever.

The idea that Traya is even comparable to Ragnos in death hasn't been supported so elaboration will be needed here.

You mention all of these later stages of Vitiate's life but as I mentioned to praxis, the quote is used to put Ragnos above Tenebrae at the time he used the Vitiate persona. The quote doesn't factor in Valkorion or Echoes Tenebrae.


@Praxis

How does Vitiate get scaling that I'm operating by? If the Malak quote is your only line of defence on that front then I'm afraid your argument will come up short given that quote is questionable at best. (can elaborate on this if you wish)

Gnost-dural's report being dissected in the way I have makes sense given that a threat on any other level doesn't line up. For example, Sadow couldn't have become a military threat due to a shortage of overall supply in terms of resources that would align with a known and notorious Sith.

My quotes concerning Ragnos' supremacy are era-specific which are not the type of quote that Chee debunks. Chee is against supremacy quotes that stretch across many eras. There are Ragnos quotes that come in this form but I have not added any of those so that my RT aligns with Chee's word on a consistent basis.

[VictreebelVictr]

@VictreebelVictr

Kun would have become the leading Sith at the time even if he knocked aside help from Ragnos. And going into the Ulic fight, an alliance was not in Kun's plan as we can tell from this quote:

Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith spirits, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos.

Despite Kun's intentions, he gets visited by Ragnos and then essentially does a 180 and ceases to fight with Ulic and follows Ragnos' direction. Considering Kun was unwilling to follow anyone prior, this speaks volumes in relation to the respect Kun holds for Ragnos which suggests that he held more power and prestige than Nadd. On top of this, Ragnos also has more impressive accolades that go beyond what we've seen from Nadd. That being said, Nadd is one of the Ancients that is the closest to Ragnos in power.

1. Thanks.

2. Do you think that the Luke Skywalker quote regarding Marka Ragnos should be taken with a grain of salt? I mean, I think he has wanked a lot of his enemies in the same way and does he really know anything about Ragnos?

"If Ragnos is resurrected, there's no telling what he might be able to do. It will take all of our strength to stop him."

Source: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

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