Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 20th 2020, 2:11 am
Why is Plagueis above Valk?
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 20th 2020, 2:34 am
@Darth Nihilus wrote:Why is Plagueis above Valk?

Due to being the most powerful Sith Lord ever lived, which includes Valkorion as well.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 20th 2020, 10:09 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I'm glad you take blurbs so seriously, HU. Welcome to Kun > DE Sheev.
Vaelias
Vaelias

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 20th 2020, 10:15 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:I'm glad you take blurbs so seriously, HU. Welcome to Kun > DE Sheev.

What Blurb says Kun > DE Sheev lol
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 21st 2020, 3:21 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@Darth Nihilus wrote:Why is Plagueis above Valk?

Due to being the most powerful Sith Lord ever lived, which includes Valkorion as well.

Blurb = marketing statement (subjective); not part of the lore. Ever seen a movie disk cover? You might notice blurbs on it.

Tenebrae was a Sith up to the point of events in Revan. When the first VOICE emerged, this was due to Tenebrae becoming Valkorion - The Sith Emperor was now a VOICE (a mask among others).

Valkorion is not a Sith and much more powerful than Darth Plagueis.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 21st 2020, 3:23 am
Noone's buying that argument, especially when he has been explicitly defined and referred as a Sith in-game sources and else.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 21st 2020, 3:36 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:Noone's buying that argument, especially when he has been explicitly defined and referred as a Sith in-game sources and else.

That was due to the manner in which the story of the character [in question] was advanced through the years and books were written accordingly. Now WE (the audience) know better by virtue of latest expansion sets of the SWTOR project and resultant codex entries. The audience is supposed to look at things objectively with most up-to-date information on hand.

The Jedi and Sith did not even knew that Valkorion existed until The Eternal Empire commenced its conquest on 3636 BBY.

Darth Marr (the de-facto ruler of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire) realized that The Sith Emperor was just a mask in his meeting with The Immortal Emperor for the first time; this is shown on-screen and the dialogue is documented. What happened on Ziost made sense to him now.

Blurbs are not definitive statements regardless (not a part of the lore) - I do not use these in my blogs for good reason.
Rei
Rei

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 21st 2020, 8:13 am
@KingofBlades wrote:
You're a native English speaker yes? If not, you should be made aware that certain verbs implicitly refer to magnitude. For instance, if something is described as "skyrocketing", we are implicitly being told that something is increasing to a large degree. To give you an example sentence, if you ever hear someone say, "Yeah Tesla's stock skyrocketed yesterday", they're saying Tesla's stock increased by a large margin. "Plummet" is another such verb. It's used to indicate a significant decrease in magnitude. Have you ever heard anyone ever use the word plummet in a sentence and have it mean anything other than a significant decrease? I certainly haven't, and I'm willing to wager this goes for everyone else on the forum who speaks fluent English. So yes, Johun's energy did drop significantly, and your attempt to cast ambiguity on the meaning of a verb who's meaning is obvious, indicates to me you are either being disingenuous or aren't very familiar with the English language.

This entire paragraph was a waste of time and is misrepresenting what I said.

When did I claim that the energy did not have a significant decrease? I began saying that Worror’s battle meditation made the Force flow with greater power with Farfalla but does not quantify how much the amplification was, which is true. I then said that Johun’s strength and energy plummeted that they felt exhausted and overwhelmed. Nowhere did I say that Johun’s energy did not decrease significantly. This was a response to you saying that their powers were significantly magnified and I am guessing you were trying to say magnified above their base levels (overcoming Tython) as later on you said significant net positive. Johun feeling a significant decrease in energy does not mean that their base levels were way magnified above their base levels, but merely that his energy dropped a lot and that is irrespective of whether he was way above base or way below base level. This energy plummeting does not indicate that they were operating way above base levels as feeling a decremental change is dependent on the initial and final states irrespective of where those levels lie.

We already disagree on Tython ,Worror and Satele’s placement and so the above discussion is pointless if we do not agree on the other points anyways.


Arguing semantics does you no credit. Being unable to alter large scale conflicts indicates he's not a master of BM. Similar adjectives are "expert", "exceptional", and "extraordinary". If you were to consult your nearest Thesarus for antonyms, you would find words like "ordinary", "usual" or "average". My description of Worror as a mediocre BM user is well within normal parameters. But really, this is all pointless, the overarching point is that there's a massive gap between someone like Worror, and someone who is truly proficient at BM.

No, your description is not within normal parameters. You are claiming that just because he cannot single handedly alter large sale conflicts that he is just a mediocre BM user. Not being one of the best in BM in the mythos does not mean that he is just a mediocre BM user. What kind of binary assignment is this? You are either one of the best in the mythos or just an average? More-so, he is able to alter large scale conflicts, just not single handedly able to change the outcomes alone.

-Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:
He had been one of General Hoth's advisers on Ruusan, and a key to victory in many battles, even though he didn't even carry a light-saber. The Ithorian's role was not to engage the enemy but rather to provide support through both his healing abilities and the rare art of battle meditation.”


You don't name drop someone who is arguably the greatest BM user of all time in a comparison unless the person in question is also extremely proficient in BM. I'm not claiming Satele's prowess equals Bastila's but the comparison is readily apparent. To bring up a similar example, imagine a physicist who knew Einstein described a rising physicist's intuition as possessing a gift of intuition like Einstein. Why would Einstein's name be mentioned if the rising star had average or even decently above average intuition? You'd only mention Einstein if this rising star was truly extraordinary. The same logic applies here. Bastila's name being mentioned implicitly reveals to us the extent to which Satele is proficient in BM. And a link in bloodline is not enough to warrant the comparison either. Imagine a Skywalker descendant being described as "powerful in the force like Anakin or Luke" if this descendant's power is anything but extraordinary. It just wouldn't happen. Explicit evidence is not the only form of evidence that exists. I don't need to provide explicit proof of Satele having Bastila tier BM if the implicit evidence is sufficient. And in this case, it is.

Really weak argument.

The quote is only saying that Satele has the gift that Bastila did indicating that Satele has the ability of Battle Meditation and at best may imply that she has the potential to do what Bastila did or to a similar level. An implication of potential does not mean that Satele would go on and just be capable of doing what Bastila did with Battle Meditation. Your analogy does not even work. Everybody has a certain level of intuition, but not everybody has the ability to Battle Meditate in Star Wars. Your analogy would only work if everybody in Star Wars could Battle Meditate and then Satele was to have the gift of Bastila. Even then, it is still only denoting potential. If a rising physicist has the gift of intuition like Einstein, that does not mean that he will be able to do what Einstein did. He would need to put in a lot of effort, work, knowledge and all sorts of other factors to reach that level of knowledge and expertise. Gift of intuition alone means nothing if you do not put in the effort and required work or in Satele’s case, having the potential of Battle Meditation like Bastila does not mean that she will be able to do what Bastila did if she is not as masterful and worked on her Battle Meditation to get it to the level that Bastila did and thus we do need evidence of her reaching that level of Mastery. Having the “gift” or potential alone is not sufficient at all and her lack of BM feats makes this even more questionable and needed.

Are you really telling me that Satele has the ability to greatly change the outcome of countless conflicts like Bastila, but that there isn’t even a single instance of it anywhere in Satele’s history of countless conflicts and all you have is some arguable implicit evidence of potential based on one quote? Give me a break.


How is it not? That "bastion" is being used to describe the magnitude of the nexus would only be used if said magnitude was incredibly strong. This is another instance where a word has an implied magnitude. I tire of having to explain things that are obvious to anyone who knows English, so please stop with the lack of common sense.

The quote is literally just saying that Tython is now a place of dark side power after the whole previous paragraphs and the paragraph itself has been talking about Tython’s history and its relevance to the Jedi Order and how it was the birthplace of the Jedi, and then after says that despite its ties and being the birth place of the Jedi Order, it is now a stronghold and a place of dark side power. Nothing here makes it comparable or implies that it is one of the most powerful dark sides nexuses when even the context itself is about its history and how the planet flipped from Jedi Order to dark side power. So please, stop with this desperate attempt to squeeze some “implicit evidence” out of quotes and ignoring context to push your own narrative.

Not to be rude, but have you ever played, watched, or even read the Wookipedia entry of SoR? SoR Revan entraps the strike team in both light and darkside energies. The HoT must then free the members trapped by dark side energies with "light side echoes" and those trapped by light side energies with "dark side fissures"

That is literally just for gameplay and you if really want to look at that from a literal point of view as evidence for SOR Revan channeling both sides of the Force, then wouldn’t that mean that the HoT would be fighting Revan alone during those instances and even without Satele’s BM? Wouldn’t that mean that Satele’s BM would have been interrupted during those instances? Why was Satele’s BM still able to enhance the team’s stats despite being trapped in those energies and spinning around when that is very contradictory to the lore of how BM works?

It does not even make sense for Revan to draw upon the side of the Force that is severely weakened instead of the side that is severely amped or at the bare minimum to use them in equal or near proportion. Even if I were to take that SOR Revan can channel both sides, it does not really deter anything I have said. A being of pure anger and hatred would be way more than likely to be using the Dark Side over the Light Side and at the bare minimum in vastly unequal proportion if the Light Side is even drawn upon at all. So even if SOR Revan did use the Light Side, he would be using it way less relative to the Dark Side due to his state of being from the perspective of the lore and from a logical perspective of using the vastly more amped side of the Force. Trapping some users in light side energies at one point of the fight does not negate that. Therefore, SOR Revan is very likely to be vastly amped by the nexus in most of the fight, if not all of it, due to the likelihood frequency of calling upon the Dark Side being vastly higher than the light side from the lore and a logical perspective. Basic common-sense dictates that a being that literally exists due to anger and hatred would not be using the Dark and Light side in anywhere near equal proportion or capacity, if any at all.

You also misquoted me. I didn't say the strike team was "monstrously amped", I said the strike team was "likely monstrously amped". Meaning my claim wasn't definitive.

Fair point. My mistake here.

The purpose of bringing up Tython was to establish the precedent of BM providing significant amps even on incredibly powerful Dark Side nexuses. Considering the vast disparity that likely exists between Worror Satele's BM, and how you'd be hard pressed to find descriptions of even the most powerful nexuses having effects comparable to Worror's BM, the amp being provided to the strike is likely massive in size. This, contrary to your assertion, is backed by evidence, only forms of evidence you seem to have trouble comprehending. It relies on intuition and implicit evidence, something that is used by humans every day of our lives.

Already addressed above.

That there's a degree of uncertainty to the feat is a shallow criticism. There's degrees of uncertainty in every single scaling chain and feat comparison, that doesn't give us license to go "muh uncertainty". Sure, we don't have perfect knowledge of all possible variables, but what we do know indicates that Revan's feat is indeed crazy

Except I am not claiming uncertainty shallowly because I feel like it. There are some unclear points regarding this feat which makes us question the circumstances of it. Contrary to what you are saying, we do not know how masterful and proficient Satele is with her BM especially when there isn’t a single shroud of evidence of her using it to the extent that you are claiming. SOR Revan is way more than likely significantly amped. Satele’s BM is interrupted several times by Revan throughout the fight and that alone brings the question of how long it takes for her to regain her focus and composure for the BM each time this happens and you already noted earlier on how when Worror’s BM was interrupted, the users felt a plummet. Yet this happens numerous times throughout the fight and Revan would be fighting the users in this state until Satele regains her focus. Finally, we do not know the overall impact on the users resulting from the BM amp relative to the Nexus. This isn’t just me claiming “muh uncertainty”. These are points from my perspective that make the feat questionable.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 21st 2020, 10:36 am
*Sigh* How I've missed SI's passive aggressive debating.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 21st 2020, 10:45 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Not to be rude, but have you ever played, watched, or even read the Wookipedia entry of SoR?

Gamer's Little Playground moment
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 22nd 2020, 6:28 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
When did I claim that the energy did not have a significant decrease? I began saying that Worror’s battle meditation made the Force flow with greater power with Farfalla but does not quantify how much the amplification was, which is true. I then said that Johun’s strength and energy plummeted that they felt exhausted and overwhelmed. Nowhere did I say that Johun’s energy did not decrease significantly. This was a response to you saying that their powers were significantly magnified and I am guessing you were trying to say magnified above their base levels (overcoming Tython) as later on you said significant net positive. Johun feeling a significant decrease in energy does not mean that their base levels were way magnified above their base levels, but merely that his energy dropped a lot and that is irrespective of whether he was way above base or way below base level. This energy plummeting does not indicate that they were operating way above base levels as feeling a decremental change is dependent on the initial and final states irrespective of where those levels lie.
Well, you did state there was no significant power decrease:
The second quote states that “Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him,” which is stating that the strength and energy plummeted to the point that Johun felt exhausted and overwhelmed. It is not talking about how much the Power in the Force plummeted, merely that he felt physically weaker with less energy and thus exhausted.
You said "It is not talking about how much the power in the force plummeted" merely that he felt physically weaker with less energy and thus exhausted". This argument explicitly denies any information being obtained from the passage beyond "Johun's power decreased by some unknowable margin". The fact that you didn't say the exact words "there was no significant power decrease" doesn't mean you weren't arguing it. Don't play coy, it isn't fooling anyone. Also Farfalla's thoughts do inform us of the extent of the amp, nexus factored in and all. If someone says, "Fuck I forgot how good heroin makes me feel", is it reasonable to assert whatever this person is feeling is not far his normal state? I don't think so, I think it's obvious that person is in a state of euphoria significantly superior to how he feels normally. I think we're seeing something similar with Farfalla. Farfalla's feeling amped significantly beyond how he normally feels, which indicates that even with the nexus factored in, the net positive Worror's BM is providing is still significantly beyond the team's base state. If you're having doubts, consider the alternate possibilities. Does it really make sense for Farfalla to say "Fuck I forgot how powerful this BM makes me feel", if the DS nexus nullifies all or most of the amp. Like, does it make sense for Farfalla to be at a level below, on par, or only slightly above his base and to think what he thinks? On a lesser note, Worror's BM is stressed far more than Tython's nexus, so it strikes me as improbable for Tython's nexus to have mitigated Worror's BM to any notable degree from an intent pov. Now, the explicit syntactic meaning of the quote allows for either of our theories to be true. However, my theory most adequately factors in the context of the situation, the implicit meaning of Farfalla's thoughts, as well as intent. So, if both theories can be true, we should opt for the theory that most accurately accounts for all explanatory considerations. At least, that's how I think we should operate, idk about you.

No, your description is not within normal parameters. You are claiming that just because he cannot [size=31]single handedly[/size] alter large sale conflicts that he is just a mediocre BM user. Not being one of the best in BM in the mythos does not mean that he is just a mediocre BM user. What kind of binary assignment is this? You are either one of the best in the mythos or just an average? More-so, [size=31]he is able[/size] to alter large scale conflicts, just not single handedly able to change the outcomes alone.
Lol bro. I'm not about to keep going back and forth on semantics. Call Worror whatever you want, mediocre, average, gifted, trash, incredible, it doesn't matter. What does matter, as I state in my post, is that there's a large difference between those who can't alter the course of large conflicts and those who can. Use whatever adjective you want for either level, it makes no difference. Worror cannot play the role of a Bastila, Kaan, or Darth Sidious. He cannot influence entire armies or fleets. What he can do however, is influence those close to him, which does have impact. Strategically placed BM on the micro scale can play important roles in battles, I'm not denying this(though it should be noted that it's Worror's healing abilities coupled with his BM that are described as having a key role in battles, not solely his BM). But there's an obvious vast disparity between Worror being limited to those close to him, and someone like Bastila or Sidious who can influence gigantic fleets and armies.

The quote is only saying that Satele has the gift that Bastila did indicating that Satele has the ability of Battle Meditation and [size=31]at best may imply[/size] that she has the [size=31]potential [/size]to do what Bastila did or to a similar level. An implication of potential does not mean that Satele would go on and just be capable of doing what Bastila did with Battle Meditation. Your analogy does not even work. Everybody has a certain level of intuition, but not everybody has the ability to Battle Meditate in Star Wars. Your analogy would only work if everybody in Star Wars could Battle Meditate and then Satele was to have the gift of Bastila. Even then, it is still only denoting potential. If a rising physicist has the gift of intuition like Einstein, that does not mean that he will be able to do what Einstein did. He would need to put in a lot of effort, work, knowledge and all sorts of other factors to reach that level of knowledge and expertise. Gift of intuition alone means nothing if you do not put in the effort and required work or in Satele’s case, having the potential of Battle Meditation like Bastila does not mean that she will be able to do what Bastila did if she is not as masterful and worked on her Battle Meditation to get it to the level that Bastila did and thus we do need evidence of her reaching that level of Mastery. Having the “[size=31]gift[/size]” or potential alone is not sufficient at all and her lack of BM feats makes this even more questionable and needed.

Are you really telling me that Satele has the ability to greatly change the outcome of countless conflicts like Bastila, but that there isn’t even a single instance of it anywhere in Satele’s history of countless conflicts and all you have is some arguable implicit evidence of potential based on one quote? Give me a break.
The semantic meaning of the quote is not sufficient to come to understanding of what is actually said. You can hide behind the explicit meaning of quotes if you wish(though I will say you're self imposing an unnecessary limit on the types of evidence you can use), but personally I think we're all intelligent enough to find explanations that best explain what's been said. To go deeper than the directly stated. So let's start with some basic questions to help us determine this. What is meant by "gift"? You theorize it's referring to potential, but I think that's implausible. We aren't discussing force potentials here, where one can simply get his Midichlorian count tested to determine his potential. BM is a force ability, and there is no way to determine one's potential in a force ability. This is especially true for Jedi, who treat the force with an ambiance of mysticism, and don't attempt to scientifically explain phenomena. A better explanation would be that "gift" actually refers to Satele's demonstrable ability in BM. So then, how good is Satele's BM? Well as I said earlier, we can infer that based on Satele being compared to arguably the greatest BM user ever. And on that note, you misunderstood the purpose of my Einstein analogy. I did not state or imply this hypothetical rising physicist was comparable to Einstein as a physicist. I specifically compared their intuitions, which is only one of many variables that determines how good of a physicist a person is. Really ,you actually agree with my analogy, though you don't realize it. You believe this physicist would indeed have an intuition like Einstein. Most importantly, by making the argument that the quote is saying Satele has potential comparable to Bastila, you've conceded that the Bastila comparison comments on the magnitude of Satele's BM, though potential in your case. But as I explained earlier, potential is an inadequate explanation. Potential in a particular force ability cannot be determined, especially by the non analytical Jedi, who treat the force less like a science and more like magic. The quote referring to demonstrable ability is a much better explanation, as it fits with our understanding of metaphysics of the SW universe, rather than supposing something that has zero precedent in the SW universe whatsoever. So Satele is in the same tier as her ancestor Bastila in the art of Battle Meditation. 

The quote is literally just saying that Tython is now a place of dark side power after the whole previous paragraphs and the paragraph itself has been talking about Tython’s history and its relevance to the Jedi Order and how it was the birthplace of the Jedi, and then after says that despite its ties and being the birth place of the Jedi Order, it is now a stronghold and a place of dark side power. Nothing here makes it comparable or implies that it is one of the most powerful dark sides nexuses when even the context itself is about its history and how the planet flipped from Jedi Order to dark side power. So please, stop with this desperate attempt to squeeze some “implicit evidence” out of quotes and ignoring context to push your own narrative.
If I had deemed the context you're referring to as relevant to the discussion in hand, I would've mentioned it. That Tython had become a DS nexus when it had once been the home world of the Jedi has no relevance to my argument which is predicated on the connotative meaning of the word "bastion". Though, since you're so interested in the context you refer to, let's take a look:

Darth Bane--Rule of Two wrote:Bane didn't know if the legend was true, but even if it was, it merely proved the superiority of the dark side and its inevitable conquest of the light. For though the followers of Ashla had supposedly defeated the followers of Boga, the dark side had prevailed in the end. Tython, revered by many as the birthplace of the Jedi Order itself, was now a bastion of dark side power, and the location of Bella Darzu's hidden fortress.
If Bane is using the present state of Tython as evidence for the indisputable might of the dark side, wouldn't it make more sense for Tython's Darkside Nexus to be incredibly powerful? How shallow would Bane's musings be if Tython's Dark side nexus was weak, rather than powerful? The explicit meaning of the quote again allows for either to be the case. But it certainly makes more sense for Bane to think what he thought there if the DS nexus was really powerful. So at best, the context you were so desperate to bring up strengthens my case, at worst, it doesn't affect it all.

That is literally just for gameplay and you if really want to look at that from a literal point of view as evidence for SOR Revan channeling both sides of the Force, then wouldn’t that mean that the HoT would be fighting Revan alone during those instances and even without Satele’s BM? Wouldn’t that mean that Satele’s BM would have been interrupted during those instances? Why was Satele’s BM still able to enhance the team’s stats despite being trapped in those energies and spinning around when that is very contradictory to the lore of how BM works?
The reason gameplay is it represents only a possible version of what happened, out of many. But that doesn't mean gameplay is worthless. We can still extract useful information. The very fact that Bioware gave Revan LS abilities tells us they meant for him to be drawing on the LS during the fight. I also don't claim or think Satele is actively using BM while entrapped by Revan. The reason the HoT doesn't also become entrapped by Revan is that he shields himself with LS and DS energies provided by Spirit Revan. 

It does not even make sense for Revan to draw upon the side of the Force that is severely weakened instead of the side that is severely amped or at the bare minimum to use them in equal or near proportion. Even if I were to take that SOR Revan can channel both sides, it does not really deter anything I have said. A being of pure anger and hatred would be way more than likely to be using the Dark Side over the Light Side and at the bare minimum in vastly unequal proportion if the Light Side is even drawn upon at all. So even if SOR Revan did use the Light Side, he would be using it way less relative to the Dark Side due to his state of being from the perspective of the lore and from a logical perspective of using the vastly more amped side of the Force. Trapping some users in light side energies at one point of the fight does not negate that. Therefore, SOR Revan is very likely to be vastly amped by the nexus in most of the fight, if not all of it, due to the likelihood frequency of calling upon the Dark Side being vastly higher than the light side from the lore and a logical perspective. Basic common-sense dictates that a being that literally exists due to anger and hatred would not be using the Dark and Light side in anywhere near equal proportion or capacity, if any at all.
Revan is a strategic genius, he'd be drawing on the force in whatever manner that maximizes his combative output. And given how Revan draws on both sides of the force against Vitiate and the strike team, it seems that drawing on both sides is>one side alone, even on DS nexuses like Yavin IV and Dromund Kaas. Since this is the case, it only makes sense for Revan to be drawing on both the light and dark sides of the force at their fullest capacities. With this in mind let's try and quantify what level Revan is operating at relevant to his base. If Revan is drawing on the light and dark sides of the force in full capacity, so 100% LS and 100%DS. Whatever impact a nexus has on him is inevitably going to have conflicting effects. If the nexus provides say a 50% to his DS capabilities(the percentage given is used only for explanatory purposes, it doesn't matter what value is given, the logic remains consistent), then Revan's LS capabilities in turn drop 50%. So Revan's DS output would be at 150% and his LS output at 50%, leaving him with a net output identical to his base. So Revan operating at or near his base, seems to be the only option that makes sense. Any theory that has Revan massively amped ignores the inverse relationship the nexus would have on Revan's Light and Dark side powers.

Except I am not claiming uncertainty shallowly because I feel like it. There are some unclear points regarding this feat which makes us question the circumstances of it. Contrary to what you are saying, we do not know how masterful and proficient Satele is with her BM especially when there isn’t a single shroud of evidence of her using it to the extent that you are claiming. SOR Revan is way more than likely significantly amped. Satele’s BM is interrupted several times by Revan throughout the fight and that alone brings the question of how long it takes for her to regain her focus and composure for the BM each time this happens and you already noted earlier on how when Worror’s BM was interrupted, the users felt a plummet. Yet this happens numerous times throughout the fight and Revan would be fighting the users in this state until Satele regains her focus. Finally, we do not know the overall impact on the users resulting from the BM amp relative to the Nexus. This isn’t just me claiming “muh uncertainty”. These are points from my perspective that make the feat questionable.
You're right; we don't know Satele's proficiency at BM. We don't know the net impact it has relative to the nexus. Definitively that is. However for the reasons I give above, I do think we can reasonably assert Satele is on the same level as Bastila as a BM user. I do think we can reasonably assert Satele's impact is monstrous, even on Yavin IV. I do think we can reasonably assert Revan was operating near his base. These aren't definitive statements, they're statements of probability, and I think they are the most likely theories of those proposed thus far, as they more fully account for all relevant factors. And these theories indicate to me Revan is an absolute monster of a combatant. You can limit yourself to evidence that is explicit in nature, but I think that'll do you more harm than good in the end.

P.S. Satele's BM is only ever disrupted whenever she becomes entrapped by Revan along with the rest of the strike team, with the exception of the HoT. The only reason the HoT doesn't get shredded once that happens is that spirit Revan protects the Hero as he scrambles to free the strike team. And since Worror was able to resume BM almost immediately after getting up having been knocked over by Farfalla, the interval between Satele being freed and resuming BM would likely be only seconds.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 22nd 2020, 6:38 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Not to be rude, but have you ever played, watched, or even read the Wookipedia entry of SoR?

Gamer's Little Playground moment
SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 3344068304
Rei
Rei

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 22nd 2020, 7:32 am
@KingofBlades

I think that you bring up a really good point regarding Revan drawing on both the Light and Dark side of the force against Vitiate despite being on a powerful DS nexus like Dromund Kaas and I have not actually considered that point to be honest. Great point there and I have upvoted your post for that. 

I will respond to the rest later on but just wanted to give credit where due in case I forget.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 22nd 2020, 12:51 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Revan is a strategic genius, he'd be drawing on the force in whatever manner that maximizes his combative output. And given how Revan draws on both sides of the force against Vitiate and the strike team, it seems that drawing on both sides is>one side alone, even on DS nexuses like Yavin IV and Dromund Kaas. Since this is the case, it only makes sense for Revan to be drawing on both the light and dark sides of the force at their fullest capacities. With this in mind let's try and quantify what level Revan is operating at relevant to his base. If Revan is drawing on the light and dark sides of the force in full capacity, so 100% LS and 100%DS. Whatever impact a nexus has on him is inevitably going to have conflicting effects. If the nexus provides say a 50% to his DS capabilities(the percentage given is used only for explanatory purposes, it doesn't matter what value is given, the logic remains consistent), then Revan's LS capabilities in turn drop 50%. So Revan's DS output would be at 150% and his LS output at 50%, leaving him with a net output identical to his base. So Revan operating at or near his base, seems to be the only option that makes sense. Any theory that has Revan massively amped ignores the inverse relationship the nexus would have on Revan's Light and Dark side powers.

Novel Revan may have used both sides of the force on Kaas but the darkside nexus on the planet is still portrayed as affecting him to an extent:

There was another long period of silence before Scourge asked another question. “Have you had any visions of what will happen when we face the Emperor?”
“No,” Revan said. “The dark side obscures my sight. We are walking into a time and place of shadows, and I cannot promise you that we will ever come out.”
Star Wars: The Old Republic – Revan (credit to Azronger)

Revan as of the novel likely leaned more towards the light side in the spectrum. So for this reason, Kaas probably was affecting him, yet besides this - he still utilized the light side there. For this reason, I don’t think he has the ability to draw more or less on one side of the spectrum whenever he wants for maximum potency. 
My take on this is that SOR Revan likely had some type of amp. because he was likely more of a darkside user.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 22nd 2020, 4:05 pm
changing my mind revan destroys
Rei
Rei

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 23rd 2020, 12:58 am
@KingofBlades wrote:You said "It is not talking about how much the power in the force plummeted" merely that he felt physically weaker with less energy and thus exhausted". This argument explicitly denies any information being obtained from the passage beyond "Johun's power decreased by some unknowable margin". The fact that you didn't say the exact words "there was no significant power decrease" doesn't mean you weren't arguing it. Don't play coy, it isn't fooling anyone. Also Farfalla's thoughts do inform us of the extent of the amp, nexus factored in and all. If someone says, "Fuck I forgot how good heroin makes me feel", is it reasonable to assert whatever this person is feeling is not far his normal state? I don't think so, I think it's obvious that person is in a state of euphoria significantly superior to how he feels normally. I think we're seeing something similar with Farfalla. Farfalla's feeling amped significantly beyond how he normally feels, which indicates that even with the nexus factored in, the net positive Worror's BM is providing is still significantly beyond the team's base state. If you're having doubts, consider the alternate possibilities. Does it really make sense for Farfalla to say "Fuck I forgot how powerful this BM makes me feel", if the DS nexus nullifies all or most of the amp. Like, does it make sense for Farfalla to be at a level below, on par, or only slightly above his base and to think what he thinks? On a lesser note, Worror's BM is stressed far more than Tython's nexus, so it strikes me as improbable for Tython's nexus to have mitigated Worror's BM to any notable degree from an intent pov. Now, the explicit syntactic meaning of the quote allows for either of our theories to be true. However, my theory most adequately factors in the context of the situation, the implicit meaning of Farfalla's thoughts, as well as intent. So, if both theories can be true, we should opt for the theory that most accurately accounts for all explanatory considerations. At least, that's how I think we should operate, idk about you.

Upon looking further at the text, I do agree with you that Worror did amp the team by a good margin above their base levels despite being on Tython and the following quotes further support and solidify that.

- Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:
“The Jedi Master had a moment to register the strange armor coat of hard, shiny shells he wore beneath his clothes. Then he, too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.”



“Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.”


“He slashed at his new target. Amplified by Worror's power, the Force flowed through him and guided his blade home.
 
“Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses.”

Lol bro. I'm not about to keep going back and forth on semantics. Call Worror whatever you want, mediocre, average, gifted, trash, incredible, it doesn't matter. What does matter, as I state in my post, is that there's a large difference between those who can't alter the course of large conflicts and those who can. Use whatever adjective you want for either level, it makes no difference. Worror cannot play the role of a Bastila, Kaan, or Darth Sidious. He cannot influence entire armies or fleets. What he can do however, is influence those close to him, which does have impact. Strategically placed BM on the micro scale can play important roles in battles, I'm not denying this(though it should be noted that it's Worror's healing abilities coupled with his BM that are described as having a key role in battles, not solely his BM). But there's an obvious vast disparity between Worror being limited to those close to him, and someone like Bastila or Sidious who can influence gigantic fleets and armies.

Fair enough. Although I never argued that there isn’t a vast disparity between Worror and someone like Bastila, just to be clear.

The semantic meaning of the quote is not sufficient to come to understanding of what is actually said. You can hide behind the explicit meaning of quotes if you wish(though I will say you're self imposing an unnecessary limit on the types of evidence you can use), but personally I think we're all intelligent enough to find explanations that best explain what's been said. To go deeper than the directly stated. So let's start with some basic questions to help us determine this. What is meant by "gift"? You theorize it's referring to potential, but I think that's implausible. We aren't discussing force potentials here, where one can simply get his Midichlorian count tested to determine his potential. BM is a force ability, and there is no way to determine one's potential in a force ability. This is especially true for Jedi, who treat the force with an ambiance of mysticism, and don't attempt to scientifically explain phenomena. A better explanation would be that "gift" actually refers to Satele's demonstrable ability in BM. So then, how good is Satele's BM? Well as I said earlier, we can infer that based on Satele being compared to arguably the greatest BM user ever. And on that note, you misunderstood the purpose of my Einstein analogy. I did not state or imply this hypothetical rising physicist was comparable to Einstein as a physicist. I specifically compared their intuitions, which is only one of many variables that determines how good of a physicist a person is. Really ,you actually agree with my analogy, though you don't realize it. You believe this physicist would indeed have an intuition like Einstein. Most importantly, by making the argument that the quote is saying Satele has potential comparable to Bastila, you've conceded that the Bastila comparison comments on the magnitude of Satele's BM, though potential in your case. But as I explained earlier, potential is an inadequate explanation. Potential in a particular force ability cannot be determined, especially by the non analytical Jedi, who treat the force less like a science and more like magic. The quote referring to demonstrable ability is a much better explanation, as it fits with our understanding of metaphysics of the SW universe, rather than supposing something that has zero precedent in the SW universe whatsoever. So Satele is in the same tier as her ancestor Bastila in the art of Battle Meditation. 

Firstly, I said that the quote is saying that Satele has the rare ability of BM just like Bastila did and at best may (not definitely) imply that she has similar potential in taking this BM to the level that Bastila did. Put simply, it could just be saying that Satele has the rare ability to battle meditate just like her own ancestor Bastila had the ability, which may well be the reason that Bastila was even mentioned at all due to her relevance in ancestry to Satele. [1]. Or has the potential to do what Bastila did with her BM or to a similar proximity. [2]. You are arguing against the second meaning but the first meaning is still a viable possibility behind the quote and in fact the most likely one as I will show later below. Lets take a look at the second one first.

You are claiming that potential cannot be applied to Force abilities, such as BM. Your argument is that potential in a force ability cannot be determined in order for the council to claim that Satele has similar potential as Bastila in BM and so Satele has to have been compared to Bastila based on demonstrable ability. However, Satele being compared to Bastila based on demonstrable ability is not true. Take a look at the dialogue of the quote.

- The Old Republic: Threat of Peace wrote:

Master Zym:

“Satele’s Actions nearly cost us everything. Regardless of her heritage, she must abide by the code.”

               
Dar’nala:

She does have the gift, Master Zym, just like Bastila did. I’m sure of it.”

Master Zym:

I share your hopes for the girl, master Dar’Nala, but your attachment to your former Padawan is dangerous.”

Two main points about the dialogue.

When Dar’nala claims that Satele has the gift just like Bastila, she then right after says “I’m sure of it” which is a clear indicator that Satele has not shown demonstrable ability yet like Bastila but Dar’nala is “sure” that Satele has that “gift”. If the relevance to Bastila was made based on demonstrable ability, then Dar’nala would not have said that last sentence as it would have been pointless to share confidence of being sure about something that has already been demonstrated and shown. Whenever that last sentence is used in the English language in the manner that Dar’nala uses it, it indicates that whatever has been said earlier has not yet happened or done but is sure and confident it would happen. This is even made clearer when Zym mentions “I share your hopes for the girl”. Yet, if the relevance to Bastila was made on demonstratable ability then Zym would not need to share “hopes” about Satele being on the level of Bastila when it comes to BM if she has already demonstrated that. These points make it very clear that the relevance to Bastila could not have possibly been made based on demonstrated ability in BM. The relevance to Bastila has to have been made based on either [1] or [2] highlighted earlier.

Now, since you are also claiming that it could not have been potential of BM as potential of force abilities cannot be determined by the council, this leaves us with [1] as the most likely option. This is further solidified when Zym mentions the “Regardless of her heritage” part which further shows that the relevance to Bastila could have been based on heritage and ancestry as stated in [1]. And, of course, Satele’s lack of Bastila tier BM feats further show that the relevance to Bastila was just about having the ability to battle meditate as it is a rare force ability and Satele has a direct heritage link to Bastila.

Summary:  The “gift” quote is just saying that Satele has the rare ability to battle meditate and draws relevancy to Bastila based on ancestry and heritage and not demonstrated ability of Bastila tier BM.

If Bane is using the present state of Tython as evidence for the indisputable might of the dark side, wouldn't it make more sense for Tython's Darkside Nexus to be incredibly powerful? How shallow would Bane's musings be if Tython's Dark side nexus was weak, rather than powerful? The explicit meaning of the quote again allows for either to be the case. But it certainly makes more sense for Bane to think what he thought there if the DS nexus was really powerful. So at best, the context you were so desperate to bring up strengthens my case, at worst, it doesn't affect it all.

How does it strengthen your case?

The point here is that the paragraph (even the sentence) you are using and all the previous paragraphs before it of that chapter are specifically focused on the history and legends of Tython rather than describing how much of a dark side place Tython has become. It notes that although the Ashla (light side) have supposedly defeated the Boga (dark side), the dark side has evidently prevailed in the end as the place was now a “bastion” and a stronghold of dark side power. It is merely saying that the existence/bastion of dark side power on this place is evidence that the dark side prevailed in the end despite Ashla having supposedly defeated the Boga. It does not have any context of power when you do not need to have an incredibly powerful dark side nexus as proof of the prevalence of dark over light on this place (Ashla/Boga). All you need is the existence of dark side power as the end result. It also highlights the irony in how Tython was supposedly the birthplace of the Jedi Order but is now a place of dark power. Whether that power is enormous or not does not negate this. The whole context of this paragraph and the previous paragraph even support this. Even if you were to assert that bastion has some significant implied power with it, nothing makes it comparable to being considered one of the most powerful dark side nexuses in the mythos. Even the descriptions of Tython itself do not assert that notion and yet you are claiming that comparison based on an arguable implicit meaning of one word whose context was not even about power.

The reason gameplay is it represents only a possible version of what happened, out of many. But that doesn't mean gameplay is worthless. We can still extract useful information. The very fact that Bioware gave Revan LS abilities tells us they meant for him to be drawing on the LS during the fight. I also don't claim or think Satele is actively using BM while entrapped by Revan. The reason the HoT doesn't also become entrapped by Revan is that he shields himself with LS and DS energies provided by Spirit Revan. 

The problem is that a lot of the stuff that happens in the fight do not represent an accurate portrayal of the lore and are very clearly gameplay oriented and thus cannot be taken as concrete evidence for the lore. SOR Revan trapping users in dark and light side energies could easily just have been to make the fight more intense and interesting rather than to represent an accurate portrayal of what an angry, hateful abomination of Revan can do. I also did not claim that you said Satele could use BM while entrapped. I was highlighting that to you to show you how inaccurate gameplay is when looked at from a lore’s perspective and how many of the things that happen in gameplay are inaccurate. When Satele was buffing HoT while spinning, did Bioware mean to tell us that Satele could BM while spinning like that or is it more likely that it was just done for gameplay purposes and for the sake of the fight? The same logic applies to SOR Revan. Also, I was not talking about why HoT does not become entrapped by Revan. I was saying that when the other users were entrapped from the gameplay perspective, HoT would be fighting Revan alone and this is exactly what happens in the gameplay itself. You are fighting SOR Revan alone at some instances while your team spins around. More-so, HoT would not even be amped by Satele’s BM meaning he is fighting SOR Revan alone and while significantly hindered. Yet, Revan could not even beat him in this state if you really want to use gameplay. You said later on that spirit Revan is protecting the Hero and yet that only happens for a very small period of that time. The HoT is fighting Revan without that protection for most of it. The HoT is fighting Revan alone for a big portion of the fight while the team spins around if you want to take gameplay. And then, of course, you have Satele amping HoT while spinning like a tornado when we know that is definitely incorrect from the lore’s perspective

This makes it crystal clear that many of the things you see in gameplay are just gameplay oriented rather than lore oriented and done for the sake of the battle and do not accurately resemble the lore.

Revan is a strategic genius, he'd be drawing on the force in whatever manner that maximizes his combative output. And given how Revan draws on both sides of the force against Vitiate and the strike team, it seems that drawing on both sides is>one side alone, even on DS nexuses like Yavin IV and Dromund Kaas. Since this is the case, it only makes sense for Revan to be drawing on both the light and dark sides of the force at their fullest capacities. With this in mind let's try and quantify what level Revan is operating at relevant to his base. If Revan is drawing on the light and dark sides of the force in full capacity, so 100% LS and 100%DS. Whatever impact a nexus has on him is inevitably going to have conflicting effects. If the nexus provides say a 50% to his DS capabilities(the percentage given is used only for explanatory purposes, it doesn't matter what value is given, the logic remains consistent), then Revan's LS capabilities in turn drop 50%. So Revan's DS output would be at 150% and his LS output at 50%, leaving him with a net output identical to his base. So Revan operating at or near his base, seems to be the only option that makes sense. Any theory that has Revan massively amped ignores the inverse relationship the nexus would have on Revan's Light and Dark side powers.

Whilst I do think that you brought up a good point regarding using both sides of the force > one side, you are missing a couple of points regarding SOR Revan. Revan, as of the novel, is in an entirely different mindset and state of being that SOR Revan. Revan in the novel is completely whole and not split in 2, like SOR Revan, and he is in a much different clarity and focus than SOR Revan who is very clearly fueled and blinded by anger and hate, which are dark side attributes. SOR Revan’s state of being makes it way more than likely that he would be drawing on the dark side alone than a Revan who is whole and in much better clarity and focus. I do not think that SOR Revan, a being of hatred and anger, can even call upon the light side of the Force in such mindset let alone balance the force between light and dark like Novel Revan did. Novel Revan had to let both sides of the force flow through him like a river. I find it really hard to believe SOR Revan would capable of letting the light side of the force flow through him to any extent let alone achieve balance between both under his mindset.

You're right; we don't know Satele's proficiency at BM. We don't know the net impact it has relative to the nexus. Definitively that is. However for the reasons I give above, I do think we can reasonably assert Satele is on the same level as Bastila as a BM user. I do think we can reasonably assert Satele's impact is monstrous, even on Yavin IV. I do think we can reasonably assert Revan was operating near his base. These aren't definitive statements, they're statements of probability, and I think they are the most likely theories of those proposed thus far, as they more fully account for all relevant factors. And these theories indicate to me Revan is an absolute monster of a combatant. You can limit yourself to evidence that is explicit in nature, but I think that'll do you more harm than good in the end.

I do not think that we can assert Satele is on the same level as Bastila as a BM user at all when there is not any evidence supporting that and for the reasons I outlined above in the Satele discussion regarding the relevance to Bastila. I do not think that SOR Revan would be operating on base level as I do not think that a being full of anger and hatred can call upon the light side of the force let alone to balance between and let both flow through him like a river as was the case in novel Revan.

And since Worror was able to resume BM almost immediately after getting up having been knocked over by Farfalla, the interval between Satele being freed and resuming BM would likely be only seconds.

The novel says it would take just a few seconds for Worror to resume and so you are essentially correct about this part. 
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 26th 2020, 2:49 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Many of your objections spawn from some fundamental misunderstandings regarding the nature of gameplay in continuity and Revan's character. This isn't an indictment on you however, for these are topics that are widely misunderstood in this community, so I'll help you out by shedding light on these topics. However, this discussion's length has gone far beyond what I have time for, so this will be my last post on the matter. I aim to put all of your concerns to rest at once, so that no further responses are necessary. In the event that should you find my answers inadequate, there are others on this forum who can help you



Firstly, I said that the quote is saying that Satele has the rare ability of BM just like Bastila did and at best may (not definitely) imply that she has similar potential in taking this BM to the level that Bastila did. Put simply, it could just be saying that Satele has the rare ability to battle meditate just like her own ancestor Bastila had the ability, which may well be the reason that Bastila was even mentioned at all due to her relevance in ancestry to Satele. [1]. Or has the potential to do what Bastila did with her BM or to a similar proximity. [2]. You are arguing against the second meaning but the first meaning is still a viable possibility behind the quote and in fact the most likely one as I will show later below. Lets take a look at the second one first. You are claiming that potential cannot be applied to Force abilities, such as BM. Your argument is that potential in a force ability cannot be determined in order for the council to claim that Satele has similar potential as Bastila in BM and so Satele has to have been compared to Bastila based on demonstrable ability. However, Satele being compared to Bastila based on demonstrable ability is not true. Take a look at the dialogue of the quote.

I was unaware of the surrounding context of the quote so I'll drop the specific argument I was making. However I think this new context alters the game, and I should give my thoughts. Let's look at the conversation:

Master Zym: “Satele’s Actions nearly cost us everything. Regardless of her heritage, she must abide by the code.”     
Dar’nala: “She does have the gift, Master Zym, just like Bastila did. I’m sure of it.”

Master Zym: “I share your hopes for the girl, master Dar’Nala, but your attachment to your former Padawan is dangerous.”

When I had made my comment that there was no way for force users to quantify the potential of a particular force ability, I was operating under the assumption that no such evidence existed. I had never seen anything that implied it was possible to do so. This, however, changes things. I no longer think demonstrable power is a viable interpretation due to the comments of Master Zym. Which leaves us with 2 other alternatives, potential or simply the ability to use BM. Or to put it more aptly, the only 2 viable options I see are both commenting on potential, just different types. They're either Satele's potential ceiling in the art of BM, or her potential to use the ability itself. If the conversation was commenting on the latter, there would be no reason for doubt. Someone either has the gift or they don't. And if she didn't have it, they would have no reason to think she might. Revan and Bastila probably have hundreds of descendents by the time of SWTOR, and not all of them would possess the ability to use BM. Satele's own son lacks the ability. So being a descendant of Bastila is not sufficient reason to conclude Satele would also have the gift. Also it should be noted that while there has never been explicit mention of testing for the potential in a particular ability, there is precedent for testing for the capability of using an ability(Bane was able to determine Zannah had the gift of sorcery, Tenebrous was able to determine he and Plagueis had no innate talent in the art) Which means "gift" cannot be referring to Satele's potential to use BM. Darnala thinks Satele can be like Bastila, with Master Zym sharing these "hopes". In light of the issues with treating this as a commentary on potential in respect to the ability to use the technique, the only viable option left that I can see is that the conversation is a commentary on the potential magnitude of Satele's BM. But what about my earlier objections to this theory? Well I feel the full conversation acts as the necessary evidence in of itself to conclude quantifying potential in a particular ability is possible. It's certainly an interesting discovery, and perhaps adds a new light to the theories of Bane and Plagueis on force user's having specialized talents in specific abilities, so I thank you for bringing this to light. But back to the current discussion. If the quote is only saying Satele Bastila tier potential, then what does that mean for the strike team? Well consider that Bastila was only in her teens by the KotOR, and still displayed the ability to influence fleets, even on an unfathomably powerful DS nexus like the Star Forge, after being redeemed to the light by Revan. In comparison, Satele is in her 60s by the events of SoR, giving her roughly 40 extra years to actualize her potential. So if Satele has comparable potential to Bastila, has decades longer to actualize said potential, with all the motivation in the world to do so(She's in the middle of the biggest war in galactic history with the most coveted force ability ever), doesn't it seem plausible that Satele at the very least rivals Bastila by SoR, and potentially exceeding her? 


But if you really find the above implausible for some reason, there are other alternatives. For instance, it seems these quotes convinced you Worror overcame the Tython DS nexus and provided a good net positive:
“The Jedi Master had a moment to register the strange armor coat of hard, shiny shells he wore beneath his clothes. Then he, too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.”

“Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.”

“He slashed at his new target. Amplified by Worror's power, the Force flowed through him and guided his blade home.”
 
“Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses.”
Don't these look awfully familiar with the descriptions of Satele's BM:

"[The team's] combat effectiveness is greatly increased."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic

"[Satele Shan] is increasing the combat effectiveness of all friendly characters within range."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic


If the former quotes convinced you that Worror overcame the nexus, isn't it also reasonable to conclude Satele did as well based on her quotes?

How does it strengthen your case?
The point here is that the paragraph (even the sentence) you are using and all the previous paragraphs before it of that chapter are specifically focused on the history and legends of Tython rather than describing how much of a dark side place Tython has become. It notes that although the Ashla (light side) have supposedly defeated the Boga (dark side), the dark side has evidently prevailed in the end as the place was now a “bastion” and a stronghold of dark side power. It is merely saying that the existence/bastion of dark side power on this place is evidence that the dark side prevailed in the end despite Ashla having supposedly defeated the Boga. It does not have any context of power when you do not need to have an incredibly powerful dark side nexus as proof of the prevalence of dark over light on this place (Ashla/Boga). All you need is the existence of dark side power as the end result. It also highlights the irony in how Tython was supposedly the birthplace of the Jedi Order but is now a place of dark power. Whether that power is enormous or not does not negate this. The whole context of this paragraph and the previous paragraph even support this. Even if you were to assert that bastion has some significant implied power with it, nothing makes it comparable to being considered one of the most powerful dark side nexuses in the mythos. Even the descriptions of Tython itself do not assert that notion and yet you are claiming that comparison based on an arguable implicit meaning of one word whose context was not even about power.

Bro, ok, let me explain this part slowly. Yes I agree that Bane is referring to the legends of Tython that describe it as the homeworld of the jedi and how it is now a Dark Side Nexus as proof of the superiority of the Dark Side. I did not dispute this in any way. What I'm saying is that it makes more sense for Bane to think this if Tython was a really powerful DS nexus, since that would be a clearer affirmation of his stance than if Tython was a weak DS Nexus. I'm not saying this is a necessary conclusion, Tython could be a weak or average DS nexus and Bane could still say this, but it just fits smoother if. the nexus is powerful. But the key thing here, is that this does not affect my actual argument whatsoever. My argument is based on the connotative meaning of the word "bastion". Nothing about Bane basing his statements on the legends of Tython and comparing it to present day Tython refutes my stance that "bastion" is used to invoke a sense of power, a place of strength, a stronghold. There is no context present that refutes it. I can't think of a way to explain this in simpler terms. Tython is described as a bastion of darkside power. Anytime words like "bastion", "stronghold" or "fortress" are used in a non literal sense(as it is here since a planet is not literally a set of fortifications), it is used to describe something as a concentration of strength and power. Thus we can conclude Tython is a powerful DS. There is no context in the passage you cited that refutes this case.  



The problem is that a lot of the stuff that happens in the fight do not represent an accurate portrayal of the lore and are very clearly gameplay oriented and thus cannot be taken as concrete evidence for the lore. SOR Revan trapping users in dark and light side energies could easily just have been to make the fight more intense and interesting rather than to represent an accurate portrayal of what an angry, hateful abomination of Revan can do. I also did not claim that you said Satele could use BM while entrapped. I was highlighting that to you to show you how inaccurate gameplay is when looked at from a lore’s perspective and how many of the things that happen in gameplay are inaccurate. When Satele was buffing HoT while spinning, did Bioware mean to tell us that Satele could BM while spinning like that or is it more likely that it was just done for gameplay purposes and for the sake of the fight? The same logic applies to SOR Revan. Also, I was not talking about why HoT does not become entrapped by Revan. I was saying that when the other users were entrapped from the gameplay perspective, HoT would be fighting Revan alone and this is exactly what happens in the gameplay itself. You are fighting SOR Revan alone at some instances while your team spins around. More-so, HoT would not even be amped by Satele’s BM meaning he is fighting SOR Revan alone and while significantly hindered. Yet, Revan could not even beat him in this state if you really want to use gameplay. You said later on that spirit Revan is protecting the Hero and yet that only happens for a very small period of that time. The HoT is fighting Revan without that protection for most of it. The HoT is fighting Revan alone for a big portion of the fight while the team spins around if you want to take gameplay. And then, of course, you have Satele amping HoT while spinning like a tornado when we know that is definitely incorrect from the lore’s perspective

This makes it crystal clear that many of the things you see in gameplay are just gameplay oriented rather than lore oriented and done for the sake of the battle and do not accurately resemble the lore.



Your objections seem to be predicted on some misunderstandings. The player is not amped by Satele's BM while entrapped. During the period of time between Satele being entrapped and being freed, spirit Revan doesn't only protect the hero for a small portion of time. He's providing and protecting the Hero with energy the entire time. This is why the Hero can survive against Revan without BM during this time. So it's not like Revan is failing to kill a HoT who lacks BM. He's failing to kill a HoT who is being protected by Spirit Revan while the BM is down. So, in reality, there isn't anything going on in gameplay that runs contrary to the lore, which leaves your objections with no legs to stand upon. And if your objections also rely on a deeper belief that gameplay intrinsically runs contrary to the lore on the macro level, then this too is a false objection. Per the Head of Continuity Leland Chee, gameplay is designed to accurately represent the lore:

Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book. But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison. Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction.
If Bioware is giving Revan LS powers, then obviously they intend for him to be able to use them in lore. While game mechanics may sometimes be exaggerated to make the game more fun, they are still constrained by the lore characteristics of the characters. I mean just think, there have been many SW games across the years, and there has never been an instance of a Sith Lord using a Wall of Light. There has never been an instance of a Jedi using Sith sorcery. They always use abilities that align with their character. The big thing with the part where Revan imprisons the strike team is that it's a scripted event, or in simpler terms it will always happen, in all versions of the fight. Remember earlier when I talked about how one of the main limitations with gameplay is that it represents only one of many possible scenarios of an encounter? That critique doesn't apply here. If Bioware gave Revan LS powers, in a scripted event no less, then obviously he's supposed to be able to use the LS. What you're suggesting has absolutely no basis on anything, be it examples from other SW games, examples from Swtor itself, or the authorities of the SW continuity.



Whilst I do think that you brought up a good point regarding using both sides of the force > one side, you are missing a couple of points regarding SOR Revan. Revan, as of the novel, is in an entirely different mindset and state of being that SOR Revan. Revan in the novel is completely whole and not split in 2, like SOR Revan, and he is in a much different clarity and focus than SOR Revan who is very clearly fueled and blinded by anger and hate, which are dark side attributes. SOR Revan’s state of being makes it way more than likely that he would be drawing on the dark side alone than a Revan who is whole and in much better clarity and focus. I do not think that SOR Revan, a being of hatred and anger, can even call upon the light side of the Force in such mindset let alone balance the force between light and dark like Novel Revan did. Novel Revan had to let both sides of the force flow through him like a river. I find it really hard to believe SOR Revan would capable of letting the light side of the force flow through him to any extent let alone achieve balance between both under his mindset.
While SoR Revan may align closer to the dark than light, that doesn't preclude him from achieving balance. Revan Reborn was certainly more Jedi than Sith, this didn't stop him from opening himself to both sides of the force, unleashing it "in its purest form" Foundry Revan, despite also straying toward the dark, was still able to channel both sides of the force to amplify his powers immensely, becoming "more powerful than any jedi has ever dreamed of". Spirit Revan can also draw on both sides of the force, he supplies the dark side energy the Hero uses to free certain members of the strike team. So evidently the divide between Spirit and SoR Revan is far more nuanced than a simple Light/Dark divide. So there's nothing from a lore perspective that prohibits SoR Revan from drawing on the light. But really, we already knew this from the game mechanics, which are made to fit with continuity and are thus constrained by the lore. If SoR Revan can use LS powers during a scripted event in game, then he can draw on the light side in lore as well. Your fanon interpretation of Revan's character traits and how that relates to his ability to use the force doesn't override this.



I do not think that we can assert Satele is on the same level as Bastila as a BM user at all when there is not any evidence supporting that and for the reasons I outlined above in the Satele discussion regarding the relevance to Bastila. I do not think that SOR Revan would be operating on base level as I do not think that a being full of anger and hatred can call upon the light side of the force let alone to balance between and let both flow through him like a river as was the case in novel Revan.


Addressed above

To summarize the 3 central points:


1.Satele has Bastila tier potential in BM with decades longer to actualize said potential, coupled with the motivation to do so. Thus we can reasonably assert she is at minimum on par with Bastila in BM, and very plausibly above.


2. Game mechanics are designed to fit the Continuity and are thus constrained by lore. Thus, both Spirit and SoR Revan can use both sides of the force in lore. 


3.There is precedence for Revan to be able to fully draw on both sides of the force despite more closely aligning with 1 side. And even if the proportions aren't 1:1, SoR Revan would still be operating at approximately his base(the Nexus' inverse relationship between the two sides would still result in an output equal to his base. For example if SoR Revan can draw on 100% of the dark side but only 50% of the LS, and if we imagine Yavin IV's nexus provides a 20% boost to DS powers and a 20% hindrance to LS powers, the net output with and without the nexus doesn't change)


In other words, a Revan likely operating at or near his base was beating a likely monstrously amped strike team. A truly incredible feat for the Prodigal Knight
Supreme Leader
Supreme Leader

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 26th 2020, 8:18 am
My mind has changed. Revan wins.
Rei
Rei

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 27th 2020, 8:02 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@KingofBlades

Despite the previous post seemingly being your last post on this, I will still reply since I think some of your points need to be addressed and also to clarify certain points. The new Satele argument you brought up definitely needs to be addressed as it is completely irrational to be honest. Others can also jump into this if they want to address something since this discussion is probably over.

When I had made my comment that there was no way for force users to quantify the potential of a particular force ability, I was operating under the assumption that no such evidence existed. I had never seen anything that implied it was possible to do so. This, however, changes things. I no longer think demonstrable power is a viable interpretation due to the comments of Master Zym. Which leaves us with 2 other alternatives, potential or simply the ability to use BM. Or to put it more aptly, the only 2 viable options I see are both commenting on potential, just different types. They're either Satele's potential ceiling in the art of BM, or her potential to use the ability itself. If the conversation was commenting on the latter, there would be no reason for doubt. Someone either has the gift or they don't. And if she didn't have it, they would have no reason to think she might. Revan and Bastila probably have hundreds of descendents by the time of SWTOR, and not all of them would possess the ability to use BM. Satele's own son lacks the ability. So being a descendant of Bastila is not sufficient reason to conclude Satele would also have the gift. Also it should be noted that while there has never been explicit mention of testing for the potential in a particular ability, there is precedent for testing for the capability of using an ability(Bane was able to determine Zannah had the gift of sorcery, Tenebrous was able to determine he and Plagueis had no innate talent in the art) Which means "gift" cannot be referring to Satele's potential to use BM. Darnala thinks Satele can be like Bastila, with Master Zym sharing these "hopes". In light of the issues with treating this as a commentary on potential in respect to the ability to use the technique, the only viable option left that I can see is that the conversation is a commentary on the potential magnitude of Satele's BM. But what about my earlier objections to this theory? Well I feel the full conversation acts as the necessary evidence in of itself to conclude quantifying potential in a particular ability is possible. It's certainly an interesting discovery, and perhaps adds a new light to the theories of Bane and Plagueis on force user's having specialized talents in specific abilities, so I thank you for bringing this to light. 

This really doesn’t work, at all.

You are essentially saying that the council would know with 100% certainty if someone has the gift/potential to use the ability, without any doubt, even if that person has not yet shown the capability of doing so. Of course there would still be doubt if the council thinks that someone has the potential to use a certain ability but that person hasn’t shown such capability yet. How in the world could the council say with complete certainty that someone is capable of an ability when that person has not yet shown such? If someone has the gift of BM, that doesn’t mean that they will just be able to show it from the second they are born. It will take time for them to develop and be able to demonstrate their gift. It is like saying that if a 5 year old hasn’t shown the ability of BM yet then he/she simply doesn’t have the gift. Not showing the ability of BM yet does not mean that the gift isn’t necessarily there and thus the council cannot possibly know with complete certainty if someone has the gift or potential of an ability or not. And that is exactly the case with Satele. How would the council definitely know if Satele has the gift if she hasn’t yet demonstrated such capability? It is definitely plausible to doubt whether Satele has the gift of BM or not as you cannot just show the gift of BM from the second you are born and it will take time to demonstrate what you can do. We do not know why they speculated that Satele has the gift of BM and it is not based on heritage as you are implying. They are speculating and sharing their high hopes about if Satele has the gift of BM and mention the relevance to Bastila due to ancestry, which was made even more clear when Zym talks about Satele’s heritage. They are not speculating that the gift of BM for Satele is derived from the ancestry to Bastila. Are you really saying that the council would know with complete certainty that Satele can BM and speculate can even do so with the potential of Bastila when Satele has not yet even shown the capability of BM? That is really far-reaching and way less likely than the simple option that they are merely speculating if Satele can BM or not as she has not yet shown the capability of doing so despite the council’s high hopes and speculation. Your only way out of this is to show that Satele has shown demonstrative ability of BM pre-quote which in turn would make it plausible for the council to speculate if Satele can BM to the potential of Bastila. But we do not even have Satele demonstrating BM at any time in her life other than the Revan incident so that is out of the question.

This leaves the option of Satele's "gift" of just being able to use BM entirely viable and the far more than likely one. I honestly think you are just trying too hard at this point to hold on to the Satele argument. Here is Elsa from Frozen telling you to Let that argument Go: 



But back to the current discussion. If the quote is only saying Satele Bastila tier potential, then what does that mean for the strike team? Well consider that Bastila was only in her teens by the KotOR, and still displayed the ability to influence fleets, even on an unfathomably powerful DS nexus like the Star Forge, after being redeemed to the light by Revan. In comparison, Satele is in her 60s by the events of SoR, giving her roughly 40 extra years to actualize her potential. So if Satele has comparable potential to Bastila, has decades longer to actualize said potential, with all the motivation in the world to do so(She's in the middle of the biggest war in galactic history with the most coveted force ability ever), doesn't it seem plausible that Satele at the very least rivals Bastila by SoR, and potentially exceeding her? 

This whole thing hinges on the argument that the quote says Satele-Bastila tier potential, which is far more than likely not true as shown above. Ironically, despite being “in the middle of the biggest war in galactic history”, she has not shown her BM once other than the Revan incident. This makes it more likely to me that Satele does not have Bastila tier BM and her BM is only limited to close quarters and those around her. Her only showing indicates as much, despite being on the biggest war in galactic history, and claiming she has Bastila tier BM is baseless speculation at this point as she clearly could have used such Bastila tier BM countless times in the biggest war in galactic history but has only shown the ability to use BM in close quarters.

But if you really find the above implausible for some reason, there are other alternatives. For instance, it seems these quotes convinced you Worror overcame the Tython DS nexus and provided a good net positive:

If the former quotes convinced you that Worror overcame the nexus, isn't it also reasonable to conclude Satele did as well based on her quotes?

Tython is not comparable to what is considered to be one of the most powerful DS nexuses (discussion below). Satele’s quotes are general descriptions of what BM can do and none of them imply a superiority to the nexus, unlike the Worror quotes.

Bro, ok, let me explain this part slowly. Yes I agree that Bane is referring to the legends of Tython that describe it as the homeworld of the jedi and how it is now a Dark Side Nexus as proof of the superiority of the Dark Side. I did not dispute this in any way. What I'm saying is that it makes more sense for Bane to think this if Tython was a really powerful DS nexus, since that would be a clearer affirmation of his stance than if Tython was a weak DS Nexus. I'm not saying this is a necessary conclusion, Tython could be a weak or average DS nexus and Bane could still say this, but it just fits smoother if. the nexus is powerful. But the key thing here, is that this does not affect my actual argument whatsoever. My argument is based on the connotative meaning of the word "bastion". Nothing about Bane basing his statements on the legends of Tython and comparing it to present day Tython refutes my stance that "bastion" is used to invoke a sense of power, a place of strength, a stronghold. There is no context present that refutes it. I can't think of a way to explain this in simpler terms. Tython is described as a bastion of darkside power. Anytime words like "bastion", "stronghold" or "fortress" are used in a non literal sense(as it is here since a planet is not literally a set of fortifications), it is used to describe something as a concentration of strength and power. Thus we can conclude Tython is a powerful DS. There is no context in the passage you cited that refutes this case.  

I already understand your point and how the argument you are making hinges on the word “bastion” as a powerful DS nexus. What I am saying is that even if the word “bastion” was used, how does this make it at all comparable to the description of being one of the most powerful dark side nexuses when even the context of Tython is solely focused on its history rather than its enormous dark side power? Don’t you think that if Tython was comparable to something like Yavin IV, that there would be more thorough descriptions of its dark side power rather than just one “bastion” word, whose previous context was even based on history? The word “bastion” is the only thing you are seemingly using to assert that Tython~Yavin IV. Even when the Jedi arrive on Tython there is no description of its DS affect on them. Don’t you think that if Tython was comparable to being one of the most powerful dark side nexuses that there would be at least something about its enormous effects on the Jedi? Your whole argument hinges on one word, that is contextual on history, and nothing else to support it.

Your objections seem to be predicted on some misunderstandings. The player is not amped by Satele's BM while entrapped.

Incorrect. The player stats stay the same and the HoT is healed by Satele even when she was entrapped the first time.

During the period of time between Satele being entrapped and being freed, spirit Revan doesn't only protect the hero for a small portion of time. He's providing and protecting the Hero with energy the entire time. This is why the Hero can survive against Revan without BM during this time. So it's not like Revan is failing to kill a HoT who lacks BM. He's failing to kill a HoT who is being protected by Spirit Revan while the BM is down. So, in reality, there isn't anything going on in gameplay that runs contrary to the lore, which leaves your objections with no legs to stand upon. 

The team gets entrapped twice. What you are talking about is the second time only. When the team gets entrapped the first time, the HoT is fighting SOR Revan pretty much alone and with barely any help. Spirit Revan protects HoT with a bubble for a very short period of time of that fight but then the HoT continues fighting Revan alone for most of it. HoT is amped by Satele during this time despite Satele being entrapped and spinning. So, yes, these are clear contradictions to the lore unless you think Satele can BM while spinning and SOR Revan cannot defat HoT alone.

Per the Head of Continuity Leland Chee, gameplay is designed to accurately represent the lore:

If Bioware is giving Revan LS powers, then obviously they intend for him to be able to use them in lore. While game mechanics may sometimes be exaggerated to make the game more fun, they are still constrained by the lore characteristics of the characters. I mean just think, there have been many SW games across the years, and there has never been an instance of a Sith Lord using a Wall of Light. There has never been an instance of a Jedi using Sith sorcery. They always use abilities that align with their character. The big thing with the part where Revan imprisons the strike team is that it's a scripted event, or in simpler terms it will always happen, in all versions of the fight. Remember earlier when I talked about how one of the main limitations with gameplay is that it represents only one of many possible scenarios of an encounter? That critique doesn't apply here. If Bioware gave Revan LS powers, in a scripted event no less, then obviously he's supposed to be able to use the LS. What you're suggesting has absolutely no basis on anything, be it examples from other SW games, examples from Swtor itself, or the authorities of the SW continuity.

If I were to follow this, then apparently Satele is capable of BM while entrapped as this happens everytime and apparently “gameplay is designed to accurately represent the lore”, HoT fights SOR Revan pretty much alone with barely any protection from spirit Revan and Revan fails to defeat him as this happens every time in a scripted event, SOR Revan fights most of the time with his lightsabers rather than channeling light and dark side abilities and this happens every time and “gameplay is designed to accurately represent the lore”.

Even the Leland Chee quote seems to be more focusing and oriented towards stats.

While SoR Revan may align closer to the dark than light, that doesn't preclude him from achieving balance. Revan Reborn was certainly more Jedi than Sith, this didn't stop him from opening himself to both sides of the force, unleashing it "in its purest form" Foundry Revan, despite also straying toward the dark, was still able to channel both sides of the force to amplify his powers immensely, becoming "more powerful than any jedi has ever dreamed of". 

Revan Reborn and Foundry Revan were complete and not split in two unlike SOR Revan. Even if you were to argue that they were closer to dark than light or vice versa, they aren’t even nearly as extremist and aligned to one side as SOR Revan was to the dark side. The comparison here is invalid.

Spirit Revan can also draw on both sides of the force, he supplies the dark side energy the Hero uses to free certain members of the strike team. So evidently the divide between Spirit and SoR Revan is far more nuanced than a simple Light/Dark divide. So there's nothing from a lore perspective that prohibits SOR Revan from drawing on the light. But really, we already knew this from the game mechanics, which are made to fit with continuity and are thus constrained by the lore. If SOR Revan can use LS powers during a scripted event in game, then he can draw on the light side in lore as well. Your fanon interpretation of Revan's character traits and how that relates to his ability to use the force doesn't override this.

You are missing the point.

SOR Revan using light energies or spirit Revan using dark energies does not negate the fact that SOR Revan is predominantly fueled by the dark side and more than likely drawing upon it for most of the fight. It does not negate the fact that an angry being like SOR Revan would not be able to achieve total balance and harmony of the force by letting both sides flow through him. Him using light side energies at one point does not mean that he can do that or means that he is using both sides of the force in the same capacity under such dark side mindset. His dark side being amped while his light side being hindered in the same capacity, to be at base overall, is irrelevant when SOR Revan is very likely using the dark side predominantly due to his state of being. Novel Revan, who is complete and entirely in a different mindset, being capable of balancing between the force does not mean that SOR Revan, who is split and in full anger and hatred, can do so. SOR Revan using light side energies at one point in the fight does not mean that he is using light and dark side in equal capacity or frequency and I find that SOR Revan would be far more likely to be using the dark side in much greater capacity than the light side meaning that he is using the amped side of the force more-so than the hindered side and nothing you have shown disproves that whether game mechanics or lore. Revan using dark side abilities would not make these dark abilities weaker because his light side is hindered. They are independent. You can’t use what novel Revan has done to gauge what SOR Revan would do when both are in entirely different states of being.

To summarize the 3 central points:


1.Satele has Bastila tier potential in BM with decades longer to actualize said potential, coupled with the motivation to do so. Thus we can reasonably assert she is at minimum on par with Bastila in BM, and very plausibly above.


2. Game mechanics are designed to fit the Continuity and are thus constrained by lore. Thus, both Spirit and SoR Revan can use both sides of the force in lore. 


3.There is precedence for Revan to be able to fully draw on both sides of the force despite more closely aligning with 1 side. And even if the proportions aren't 1:1, SoR Revan would still be operating at approximately his base(the Nexus' inverse relationship between the two sides would still result in an output equal to his base. For example if SoR Revan can draw on 100% of the dark side but only 50% of the LS, and if we imagine Yavin IV's nexus provides a 20% boost to DS powers and a 20% hindrance to LS powers, the net output with and without the nexus doesn't change)


In other words, a Revan likely operating at or near his base was beating a likely monstrously amped strike team. A truly incredible feat for the Prodigal Knight

1. A Satele with absolutely no BM feats, despite being in the biggest galactic war in history and countless other conflicts, is far more than likely to be have been stated to have the ability or "gift" of using BM rather than having Bastila tier BM, which is even made more clear due to Satele’s lack of BM demonstrative ability pre-quote. The council being 100% certain that Satele can BM and can even do so with the potential of Bastila ,despite Satele’s lack of demonstrative ability as of that point, is a far far less likely and a more far-reaching interpretation of the quote.

2. Game mechanics, which when taken to the Revan fight, have many inaccuracies to the lore and would assert the notion that SOR Revan cannot even defeat HoT alone without BM and Satele can BM even whilst spinning. SOR Revan potentially using both sides of the force, if game mechanics are taken, does not negate the likelihood of him using the dark side in greater frequency and capacity due to his state of nature. This is also irrelevant to whether SOR Revan is overall at base level since using the more amped side is independent of the hindered side and won’t make the more amped side’s abilities weaker. Invalid comparisons to Novel Revan do not work here as well.

3. Addressed in 2.

In other words, a Revan likely drawing on his significantly amped dark side in greater frequency and capacity than the light side, irrelevant to his base, is fighting a questionably amped strike team. A truly questionable feat for the Prodigal Knight.
Thij
Thij

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 27th 2020, 4:07 pm
SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 1471176647
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 27th 2020, 4:31 pm
@Rei @KingofBlades: Good discussion. I'll jump in and share some of my thoughts tonight. SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 1289255181
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 30th 2020, 9:18 am
Curious as to what scaling people provide for Revan being beyond Tyranus' level? Apart from SOR Revan looking more impressive and having lots of powers to show off in battle.
Sponsored content

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  - Page 2 Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum