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Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:02 am
@Meatpants

The poison may have weakened him to an extent but if his force capabilities are as phenomenal as you claim, then even a weakened Dooku would be able to oneshot a nightsister with no respectable feats. As for the second Ventress example, killing her was always the goal so surely if he could, he would just fry her to death with lightning rather than using lightning and then trying to get the kill with his saber. Just doesn't add up. I'll give you the Anakin one though.

My analysis of Sidious' expression is an observation of the primary source in order to draw a conclusion on the fight's progress and multiple stages.

Note I never said Maul and Sidious were equals. Maul landing hits was simply an indication that Maul is not totally out of Sidious' league. If the difference between the two was massive then Maul wouldn't be able to last as long as he did nor would he be able to make contact with Sidious.

@The Master of the Foundry

Elaborate on what is hilarious about this thread
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:14 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:The poison may have weakened him to an extent but if his force capabilities are as phenomenal as you claim, then even a weakened Dooku would be able to oneshot a nightsister with no respectable feats. As for the second Ventress example, killing her was always the goal so surely if he could, he would just fry her to death with lightning rather than using lightning and then trying to get the kill with his saber. Just doesn't add up. I'll give you the Anakin one though.

So we're to assume that every time Sidious uses his lightning, it's full potency? We don't literally throw quotes away because Dooku "may" have been going all-out with his lightning on someone else. We go by the facts, and contextualise around them. If Dooku can produce lightning only Yoda and Sidious can survive, then logically any other time he uses lightning against an inferior Force user, it's not his full potency.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:My analysis of Sidious' expression is an observation of the primary source in order to draw a conclusion on the fight's progress and multiple stages.

Note I never said Maul and Sidious were equals. Maul landing hits was simply an indication that Maul is not totally out of Sidious' league. If the difference between the two was massive then Maul wouldn't be able to last as long as he did nor would he be able to make contact with Sidious.

Yeah, Sidious may have had to amp up the slighest bit in different parts of the fight, but the source material is very clear that Sidious toyed with them. Again, prove he was using even close to his power against them. Even around TPM, Sidious only barely tapping into his reserves, so basically not even close to his full power can speed blitz Maul. It's the same story here.
Jake
Jake
Level One
Level One

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:17 am
MAUL MAUL MAUL
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:25 am
@Meatpants

If a quote is debunked by other sources then yeah, we can throw it away. I mean, it was a reach to begin with, suggesting that Dooku can essentially oneshot all below Yoda level.

You keep asking me to prove things when you throw around baseless claims like the fact that Sidious has to "amp up the slighest bit". Kinda rich wouldn't you say?

@Jake

Well, we are discussing Vader placements and Maul is pretty close via Lucas as well as other sources.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:29 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:If a quote is debunked by other sources then yeah, we can throw it away. I mean, it was a reach to begin with, suggesting that Dooku can essentially oneshot all below Yoda level.

Maybe, if the quote is entirely contradicted. But it's not in this case. The logical assumption is that Dooku's full potency is something only Yoda/Sidious can survive against. Because Dooku utilises lightning against others and they don't die does not mean the statement is false.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:You keep asking me to prove things when you throw around baseless claims like the fact that Sidious has to "amp up the slighest bit". Kinda rich wouldn't you say?

Show me the evidence that Maul is as close to Sidious as Dooku is to Yoda (except for "but his facial expressions").

@Trayus Marauder wrote:@Jake

Well, we are discussing Vader placements and Maul is pretty close via Lucas as well as other sources.

Please provide the Lucas quote and these "other sources".
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:34 am
@Meatpants

Is the Dooku lightning quote backed up by others of a similar nature or is it standalone?

I do appreciate the strawman you used on my analysis of the Maul vs Sidious duel by the way. Top notch execution.

The other sources have been covered throughout this thread. As for the Lucas quote:

"But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:37 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:Is the Dooku lightning quote backed up by others of a similar nature or is it standalone?

Ghee, I wonder if we've already seen another one in the recent conversation? Protip: Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:I do appreciate the strawman you used on my analysis of the Maul vs Sidious duel by the way. Top notch execution.

You haven't provided any evidence of substance through this whole discussion.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:The other sources have been covered throughout this thread. As for the Lucas quote:

"But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Please prove that Lucas is talking about power in the Force, or combative ability; rather than status as subservient to the emperor?
O-Siri
O-Siri

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:40 am
@Meatpants

The quote is debunked when Dooku himself survives the "only one as powerful as Yoda can survive" lightning and Dooku is factually less powerful unless you really want to go down that path.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:42 am
Kilius wrote:@Meatpants

The quote is debunked when Dooku himself survives the "only one as powerful as Yoda can survive" lightning and Dooku is factually less powerful unless you really want to go down that path.

Are you actually arguing that the quote contradicts and debunks itself? You've reached a new low.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:44 am
@Meatpants

That quote doesn't convey the same message at all. The one you keep pushing indicates that Dooku oneshots all except Yoda tier opponents. The one you just gave now (and a bit before) shows Yoda having difficulty but does not rule out the possibility of weaker opponents than Yoda being able to deflect or at least tank it.

Have you not read my discussions with other members before you arrived? Plenty of evidence has been provided along with video breakdowns.

Please prove that the quote refers to the common ground between the three characters being subservient to Sidious rather than a rough tier list suggestion. For real though, he was subservient to Sidious while he was on Sidious/Yoda tier so clearly that's not the element that changed.

Side note, you should try debating without throwing strawman arguments in or insults.
O-Siri
O-Siri

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:48 am
@Meatpants wrote:
Kilius wrote:@Meatpants

Are you actually arguing that the quote contradicts and debunks itself? You've reached a new low.

Pretty much. Quote says you have to be as powerful as Yoda do survive Dooku's lightning. Dooku is less powerful than Yoda and survives his own redirected lightning. Quote debunked. Pretty simple.


Last edited by Kilius on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:49 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:That quote doesn't convey the same message at all. The one you keep pushing indicates that Dooku oneshots all except Yoda tier opponents. The one you just gave now (and a bit before) shows Yoda having difficulty but does not rule out the possibility of weaker opponents than Yoda being able to deflect or at least tank it.

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Latest?cb=20171118015115

Since when did I say Dooku one-shots anyone except Yoda tier? Please quote it.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Have you not read my discussions with other members before you arrived? Plenty of evidence has been provided along with video breakdowns.

"I've addressed this elsewhere, find it yourself. I can't give the same reasons here though, just cos." Lol.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Please prove that the quote refers to the common ground between the three characters being subservient to Sidious rather than a rough tier list suggestion. For real though, he was subservient to Sidious while he was on Sidious/Yoda tier so clearly that's not the element that changed.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that Lucas is referring literally to combative power/ability.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:56 am
@Meatpants

"Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Meaning only Yoda, Sidious and arguably Windu could survive a Force attack from Dooku.

That's directly from you.

So do you honestly expect me to cover all of the info again and basically copy paste all of the stuff on the thread purely for your benefit? You have to be trolling.

Lucas notes that he was as strong as Sidious but after the injury from Kenobi, he's like Dooku/Maul. Given that it's referring to strength, that can logically be interpreted as strength with the force/combat viability. Sure as hell makes more sense than your assumption that it refers to Vader being subservient when that's a consistent factor pre and post injuries.

Again, can't go a post without throwing some sort of insult. Not gonna lie, it's pretty funny that you have to compensate.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:06 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:"Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Meaning only Yoda, Sidious and arguably Windu could survive a Force attack from Dooku.

That's directly from you.

Since when does not being able to survive an attack mean one-shotted? Someone like Yaddle for example wouldn't get one shotted by Dooku, but she also wouldn't survive the attack, which is what the quote says. You literally just strawmanned my position. I never said someone other than Yoda tier would be insta-killed, only that they wouldn't survive, which is just me repeating what the quote says anyway.

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Latest?cb=20171118015115

@Trayus Marauder wrote:So do you honestly expect me to cover all of the info again and basically copy paste all of the stuff on the thread purely for your benefit? You have to be trolling.

I'm not going to go digging through various old threads to find stuff from you. The only stuff you've provided so far is facial expressions and a deleted scene.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Lucas notes that he was as strong as Sidious but after the injury from Kenobi, he's like Dooku/Maul. Given that it's referring to strength, that can logically be interpreted as strength with the force/combat viability. Sure as hell makes more sense than your assumption that it refers to Vader being subservient when that's a consistent factor pre and post injuries.

It's not a consistent factor concerning what he's talking about. He's referring to the positions of Dooku and Maul as being servants and tools of the Emperor, with no hope of ever toppling him: Anakin goes from being capable of toppling him to being so weakened he's just like the others, a tool with no hope of escape.
Reynard (Ethanion)
Reynard (Ethanion)

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:12 am
Personally have him below TPM Kenobi by a fair bit at this time, if Resurrection was canonical for sure my opinion of him would raise drastically. I think Vader is no higher than Savage Opress regardless though.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:15 am
@Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Personally have him below TPM Kenobi by a fair bit at this time, if Resurrection was canonical for sure my opinion of him would raise drastically. I think Vader is no higher than Savage Opress regardless though.

Reasons?
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:17 am
Well this section involving the Dooku quote is irrelevant anyway. As Killius and I have pointed out, the quote debunks itself and other pieces of evidence debunk it.

"various threads" It's literally just this one but ok lol. Maybe try reading previous discussion before jumping into a debate next time

Well to use your counter, please prove it. My interpretation has been justified by the initial analysis of the quote in addition to the other arguments I've offered during the debate I was having before you came into the picture.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:22 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:Well this section is irrelevant anyway. As Killius and I have pointed out, the quote debunks itself and other pieces of evidence debunk it.

Concession accepted.

And no, the quote does not debunk itself. That's literally ridiculous.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:"various threads" It's literally just this one but ok lol. Maybe try reading previous discussion before jumping into a debate next time

Maybe try providing something other than facial expressions and deleted scenes, then referring to another thread from the past for your "real" arguments.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Well to use your counter, please prove it. My interpretation has been justified by the initial analysis of the quote in addition to the other arguments I've offered during the debate I was having before you came into the picture.

I don't need to prove it, only that there's a variety of ways that the Lucas quote can be interpreted. Your argument is that the quote is referring specifically to combative ability/power level. The burden of proof is on you to prove that this interpretation makes the most sense and is solid enough that other just as plausible interpretations can be safely set aside in favour of your own.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:31 am
@Meatpants

How is it ridiculous? You have yet to disprove Kilius' argument.

I never referred to another thread, simply posts within this one that are part of a discussion with another member. You could simply read that. Also, this idea that my argument has been "facial expressions and deleted scenes" is such a strawman. Seeing as you jumped into the discussion and addressed argument points mid-debate, I figured you would be aware of what I had written previously. Also, all of my arguments are real.

Well that's what I've been trying to accomplish from the beginning of my debate. Thus why I've been comparing with Dooku/Vader so much. Added evidence to make the possibility of Maul/Vader/Dooku being the same tier seem logical.

Meatpants
Meatpants
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Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:40 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:How is it ridiculous? You have yet to disprove Kilius' argument.

His argument in nonsensical. Yoda is deflecting Dooku's own lightning back at him, of course he can block it.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:I never referred to another thread, simply posts within this one that are part of a discussion with another member. You could simply read that. Also, this idea that my argument has been "facial expressions and deleted scenes" is such a strawman. Seeing as you jumped into the discussion and addressed argument points mid-debate, I figured you would be aware of what I had written previously. Also, all of my arguments are real.

I was referring to what you've brought to the table between the two of us. A real straw man is the one you conceded to arguing against me. Anyway, perusing what you've said in this thread, it's hard to take you seriously. Arguing Maul's superiority based on Savage's fight with Dooku? That's even lower than your straw man argument.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Well that's what I've been trying to accomplish from the beginning of my debate. Thus why I've been comparing with Dooku/Vader so much. Added evidence to make the possibility of Maul/Vader/Dooku being the same tier seem logical.

None of the arguments you've put forth in this thread are remotely convincing.
avatar
LOTL

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:14 am
Yoda appears to have been similarly drawing on Vjun's energy, but that's a can of worms. Let's talk about a more direct power feat from Dooku from Geonosis, where "Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Meaning only Yoda, Sidious and arguably Windu could survive a Force attack from Dooku. Furthermore, "Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily." I don't see any power feat from Maul that matches.

Yeah, that really is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Lmfao at Yoda of all people drawing on the dark side. This is wrong though, Yoda states clearly that

"In the dark air of Vjun, it was all he could do not to pursue Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly"

Yoda, assuming he gives in to his impulses would "annihilate Dooku utterly", and even then, there is no proof he would be drawing on the dark side to do that, instead of just not restraining himself

Let's put the myth of Yoda struggling against Dooku's lightning aside first. Far more numbers of sources show Yoda actually deflecting Dooku's lightning easily:

Blue lightning arced out of his fingertips and toward the tiny Jedi. The assault was relentless. Yet Yoda stood unfazed. “Much to learn you still have,” he said calmly.

Credit: Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Movie Storybook

He is utterly unfazed by Dooku's lightning, unfazed meaning "not disturbed or concerned"

Count Dooku hurls Force lightning at Yoda, but Yoda easily deflects the attack.

Credit: Attack of the Clones - Photo Comic

On Geonosis, Yoda's easy parrying and, indeed, handling of the Sith lightning Dooku hurled at him had come as a surprise.

Credit: Star Wars Labyrinth of Evil

   
He felt Dooku gathering power, and he bowed his head in shock and sorrow as he sensed the true source of the Count’s increased ability. An instant later, Dooku raised his hands and sent a stream of deadly Force lightning toward him.

   Yoda blocked the lightning automatically, grieved by this final evidence of Dooku’s change in allegiance. Only those who turned to the dark side of the Force misused their abilities so. This he had feared ever since Count Dooku left the Jedi Order, but only now was he certain. His old student had not just left the path of the Jedi; he had betrayed everything he had once stood for. He had joined the dark side. “Much to learn you still have,” Yoda told him.

   A startled expression crossed Dooku’s face at the utter failure of his attack.

Credit: Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Junior Novel

Dooku's attack was an "utter failure". Not something that can cause Yoda to be troubled, for sure.

So, Yoda is absolutely "unfazed" by Dooku's lightning, can "easily handle his lightning", and his attack is stated to be an "utter failure". Worth noting here, that the movie storybook, the photocomic, the Junior Novel are all primary accounts of the fight. Even more so, it is also to be noted that the photocomic is published in 2007, Labyrinth of Evil is published in 2005, so it is clear that the notion of Yoda struggling with Dooku's lightning has been retconned. This correlates with what we observe in the movie too, Yoda never really seems strained or anything by Dooku's lightning, and though facial expressions do not make for an argument on their own, they do act as excellent supporters if the argument being made is already quite easily backed up by other sources

But you probably are not satisfied, yeah. You likely need more proof?

Let's examine their fight in AoTC. There are 8 main accounts of the fight, and 7 of them all show Dooku being thoroughly outclassed:

 

Seething, the Count ignited is lightsaber and charged. He attacked ferociously, but Yoda’s superior command of the Force prevented Dooku from landing a single blow. Finally, the Count slowed.

Then Yoda attacked. The small but powerful Jedi flew forward, his lightsaber a blur of light. Dooku did not stand a chance against his old Master’s magnificent lightsaber skills.

“Fought well you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said when the Count retreated.

Credit:Attack of the Clones Movie Storybook


Dooku does not "stand a chance" against Yoda's fighting skills


Dooku's lightsaber flashed in an elaborate salute. "Master Yoda, now we shall discover who is most powerful."

The Count flew across the space between them, his lightsaber raining blows on the small Jedi Master. Yoda did not give a centimeter. He stood beneath the storm, calmly deflecting blow after blow. As Dooku's fury increased, his strength failed, and his blows became less skillful.

Suddenly, Yoda attacked. His lightsaber was so fast that it seemed like a solid wall of light. Dooku cried out in amazement and stumbled.

"Powerful you have become," Yoda said. "I sense the dark side in you."

They crossed swords, and again Yoda mastered him easily.

"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan."

Count Dooku gasped for breath. "The battle is far from over. This is only the beginning."

Credit: Attack of the Clones Mighty Chronicles

Yoda "mastered him easily", and "calmly deflected" every one of Dooku's strikes

Count Dooku whirls his lightsaber in a formal salue. Yoda draws his lightsaber. Suddenly, Count Dooku charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.

YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light. Finally, their blades cross and the fighting slows.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Final Script

Yoda is able to counter Dooku's blows not budging an inch, draining Dooku as he sought to attack. Moreover, when he chooses to attack, Dooku is immediately forced to retreat. Pretty evident that Dooku is outclassed here

Count Dooku immediately unleashes his finest assault yet on Yoda. As expert as Dooku's attacks are, none get past the Jedi Master's defenses. With each failed thrust, Dooku's strength weakens as he realizes he is not the most powerful Jedi after all.

Sensing his opponent's fatigue, Yoda at last reveals why he is considered the most powerful of the Jedi. Unable to keep pace with Yoda's awesome attack, Dooku is forced back!

Realizing he is no match for Yoda, Dooku makes for his ship.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Comic

One of my favorites

Dooku is "no match" for Yoda and is unable to even keep pace with Yoda's attack. Again, clear indication that Dooku is outclassed

Yoda drew his lightsaber and answered the salute. In contests, he had no interest, but in stopping Count Dooku, he had a great deal of interest indeed. And Dooku had left him no other choice.

Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable.

“Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth, though he knew that the Count would not want to hear it. Count Dooku had never been happy to merely fight well; the best he must be, always. But not this time.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Junior Novel

Again, pretty clear that Dooku is outclassed. Yoda "effortlessly" blocks his attacks even as the Count gets more desperate.

Ultimately, it came down to a battle of lightsabers. Dooku drew his weapon and leapt to attack. Yoda pushed back his cloak and called his own lightsaber to his hand. With a shout, Yoda leapt into battle in a dizzying flurry of motion.

Count Dooku used a mix of subtle blade engagements and crashing blows. Yoda used the force of Dooku’s attacks to propel his own leaping, spinning assault. Though Dooku was recognized as a master with a lightsaber, Yoda was simply never where the Count’s blade struck. The first exchange as the combatants paused, blades lock.

Yoda pushed up a gear, shifting Dooku’s blade away and launching a frightening attack, his shrill battle-cry echoing around the chamber. Yoda’s tumbling leaps now changed direct in midair as he rained blows down on a frantically defending Dooku.

Barely showing the stress of battle, Yoda drew Dooku into outstretching and unbalancing himself, before he, once again, locked lightsabers with his former Padawan.

Count Dooku was many things, but he was no fool. Knowing he was bested and facing imminent defeat and death if the conflict continued, Dooku reached out with the Force and crushed the base of a nearby piece of heavy machinery.

Credit: Fact Files 51

Yoda is barely showing the stress of battle, even as Dooku is frantically defending. Again, pretty clear that Dooku is outclassed

Yoda drew his lightsaber and answered the salute. In contests, he had no interest, but in stopping Count Dooku, he had a great deal of interest indeed. And Dooku had left him no other choice.

Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable.

“Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth, though he knew that the Count would not want to hear it. Count Dooku had never been happy to merely fight well; the best he must be, always. But not this time.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Junior Novel

Again, pretty clear that Dooku is outclassed. Yoda "effortlessly" blocks his attacks even as the Count gets more desperate.

Ultimately, it came down to a battle of lightsabers. Dooku drew his weapon and leapt to attack. Yoda pushed back his cloak and called his own lightsaber to his hand. With a shout, Yoda leapt into battle in a dizzying flurry of motion.

Count Dooku used a mix of subtle blade engagements and crashing blows. Yoda used the force of Dooku’s attacks to propel his own leaping, spinning assault. Though Dooku was recognized as a master with a lightsaber, Yoda was simply never where the Count’s blade struck. The first exchange as the combatants paused, blades lock.

Yoda pushed up a gear, shifting Dooku’s blade away and launching a frightening attack, his shrill battle-cry echoing around the chamber. Yoda’s tumbling leaps now changed direct in midair as he rained blows down on a frantically defending Dooku.

Barely showing the stress of battle, Yoda drew Dooku into outstretching and unbalancing himself, before he, once again, locked lightsabers with his former Padawan.

Count Dooku was many things, but he was no fool. Knowing he was bested and facing imminent defeat and death if the conflict continued, Dooku reached out with the Force and crushed the base of a nearby piece of heavy machinery.

Credit: Fact Files 65

Basically the same thing, but in a future edition of the fact files

Only one account has Dooku being loosely a match for Yoda and big surprise, it is the main novel. However, considering that it is the same source that has Yoda deflect Dooku's lightning with strain when every other source contradicts it, yeah, it is safe to say that the notion of Dooku being comparable as such, to Yoda is outright false.

That said, I have always held the notion that Dooku put up a mediocre fight and that has not changed. Yoda can't stomp Dooku and I stand by that notion, however, the overwhelming array of evidence clearly indicates that Yoda outclasses the Count.

Let's talk about a more direct power feat from Dooku from Geonosis, where "Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Meaning only Yoda, Sidious and arguably Windu could survive a Force attack from Dooku.

No, no bro. You cannot engage in double standards here. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda can survive such an attack, is a clear indication that anyone weaker than Yoda "cannot" survive such an attack, meaning Mace Windu too is toast.

Let's go deep here. The quote indicates that it takes Yoda a great deal of energy to deflect Dooku's attacks to the extent that he only "survives" the attack. By this let us examine the feasible options that this points to:

Yoda survives that attack, not barely, but easily. In that case, I ask you, what's the point of the quote? If Yoda not only survives the attack but does so easily, it certainly contradicts the part that says that only someone as powerful as Yoda can survive the attack, meaning force users that are weaker but comparable to Yoda, like Mace too can survive the attack, rendering the quote really pointless by self contradiction.

Yoda barely survives the attack. It also indicates that anyone weaker than Yoda by even a bare margin is toast meaning Dooku is not only as powerful as Yoda he is even more so. If someone barely survives an attack by an opponent it is safe to say that the opponent is more powerful.

Note, barely surviving an attack is much more significant than barely deflecting it. The latter indicates that you must be comparable to your opponent, the former indicates that the opponent is more powerful than you. Force defenses are supposed to prevent the attack from so much as touching your body, the former indicates that Yoda's force defenses were not only breached, but also that the energy that managed to breach your force defenses almost killed you. That is a considerable leap and utter nonsense as far as the power level of Dooku goes

In any case, no matter the conclusion, Yoda can handle Dooku's lightning easily

What does Maul have that compares to Dooku giving Yoda a good fight while exhausted, and even disarming Yoda in one of their duels?

Lmfao, let's not kid ourselves. Dooku "disarmed Yoda" by tagging him with lightning. No doubt, Dooku showing the battle technique and presence of mind to be able to tag someone like Yoda with lightning in the middle of battle is a great showing for him, it no more indicates parity with Yoda than Savage before being rage amped disarming Dooku indicates that he is comparable to Dooku or that it means anything:

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 ThinImpressionableArcticwolf-size_restricted

There are force users that do not get disarmed by attacks that are powerful enough to even stun them by opponents much more powerful than they are, similarly, even inferior force users sometimes manage to disarm their superiors

Not to mention, we have a clear cut comparison as it is: Yoda being considerably hindered, is still noticeably better than Dooku that is considerably amped. Leading to a clear conclusion that Dooku is outclassed by him. This is in line with the vast number of primary accounts of the fight too supporting Dooku being outclassed against Yoda in AoTC, and unfortunately, outnumbered and retconned sources of Dooku's lightning pressuring Yoda are not enough to conclude that they are comparable. Now when I bring Sidious into the equation, but no problem, I'll give you time to recover before I move on to that

I am also pretty sure that ILS has said that there exists a source that states that Yoda only goes all out against Sidious in ROTS and not before. If such a thing is true, it lowers Dooku even more.

Since when does not being able to survive an attack mean one-shotted? Someone like Yaddle for example wouldn't get one shotted by Dooku, but she also wouldn't survive the attack, which is what the quote says. You literally just strawmanned my position. I never said someone other than Yoda tier would be insta-killed, only that they wouldn't survive, which is just me repeating what the quote says anyway.

So, they would writhe in agony for 10 hours before dying? Exactly what are you contending here? That they would survive for a few minutes or seconds? That doesn't matter. Refer to my argument above.


Last edited by LOTL on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
SithSauce
SithSauce
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Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:17 am
@Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Personally have him below TPM Kenobi by a fair bit at this time, if Resurrection was canonical for sure my opinion of him would raise drastically. I think Vader is no higher than Savage Opress regardless though.
This is a joke right?
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LOTL

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:26 am
@Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Personally have him below TPM Kenobi by a fair bit at this time, if Resurrection was canonical for sure my opinion of him would raise drastically. I think Vader is no higher than Savage Opress regardless though.

Indeed. Given Savage is more powerful than Sidious and Mace and Maul it is no anti feat for Vader to be sure.
Meatpants
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Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:30 am
@LOTL wrote:Yeah, that really is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Lmfao at Yoda of all people drawing on the dark side. This is wrong though, Yoda states clearly that

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Latest?cb=20171118015115

When did I say Yoda was drawing specifically on the Dark Side? As I said, it's a can of worms I'd rather not open, so let's just continue to look at the Geonosis fight.

@LOTL wrote:Let's put the myth of Yoda struggling against Dooku's lightning aside first. Far more numbers of sources show Yoda actually deflecting Dooku's lightning easily:

I'm aware of that, despite the quote holding a lot less value it's still impressive for Dooku that even in one or two sources he's challenging Yoda somewhat - which is of course the point of my argument. My other quote, however, still stands: "Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Maul, conversely, has no similar accolade or demonstration. Not to mention that Dooku has significant growth during the Clone Wars up to RotS.

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@LOTL wrote:Let's examine their fight in AoTC. There are 8 main accounts of the fight, and 7 of them all show Dooku being thoroughly outclassed:

We can argue all day about how "outclassed" Dooku was against Yoda, but that doesn't change the fact that Dooku can hold is own against Yoda either. It's in the same vein as Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul. Maul clearly thoroughly outclasses him as a duelist, being an 8 to Jinn's 7 - just as Yoda is a 9 to Dooku's 8 - but that doesn't mean Qui-Gon can't be scaled off that, just as Dooku can be. Furthermore, you're ignoring the whole point of my argument, quoted verbatim from my earlier post: "What does Maul have that compares to Dooku giving Yoda a good fight while exhausted [...]". Thus, a lot of what you posted is completely meaningless, because I never argued how close Dooku was, only that he gave a good fight, which is exactly what we see. Fighting 30 seconds against Yoda after fighting two duels is impressive; considering that three high tier masters were unable to defeat Yoda in that demonstration at the Temple, or how another tier 9 duelist, Sidious, quickly dispatched three of the greatest swordsbeings in the Order within seconds. Even Yoda is sincere when he says Dooku fought well:

Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Junior Novelization wrote:“Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth [...]

So I ask again, what does Maul have that matches/outmatches Dooku's showing against Yoda?

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@LOTL wrote:No, no bro. You cannot engage in double standards here. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda can survive such an attack, is a clear indication that anyone weaker than Yoda "cannot" survive such an attack, meaning Mace Windu too is toast.

Let's go deep here. The quote indicates that it takes Yoda a great deal of energy to deflect Dooku's attacks to the extent that he only "survives" the attack. By this let us examine the feasible options that this points to:

Yoda survives that attack, not barely, but easily. In that case, I ask you, what's the point of the quote? If Yoda not only survives the attack but does so easily, it certainly contradicts the part that says that only someone as powerful as Yoda can survive the attack, meaning force users that are weaker but comparable to Yoda, like Mace too can survive the attack, rendering the quote really pointless by self contradiction.

Yoda barely survives the attack. It also indicates that anyone weaker than Yoda by even a bare margin is toast meaning Dooku is not only as powerful as Yoda he is even more so. If someone barely survives an attack by an opponent it is safe to say that the opponent is more powerful.

Note, barely surviving an attack is much more significant than barely deflecting it. The latter indicates that you must be comparable to your opponent, the former indicates that the opponent is more powerful than you. Force defenses are supposed to prevent the attack from so much as touching your body, the former indicates that Yoda's force defenses were not only breached, but also that the energy that managed to breach your force defenses almost killed you. That is a considerable leap and utter nonsense as far as the power level of Dooku goes

In any case, no matter the conclusion, Yoda can handle Dooku's lightning easily

Wow, this is straight up mental gymnastics. I've already explained this to Trayus Marauder; Dooku's lightning does not one-shot anyone under Yoda's paygrade. The semantics of whether Yoda can absorb the lightning easily or any other way doesn't take away from the validity of the quote. The key word is survive; thus anyone below Yoda in power will not survive the attack. For example, if you subscribe that Windu is perhaps close to Yoda, but not quite as powerful, Dooku and Windu would engage in a long tug of war that Dooku will eventually win. Furthermore, whether Yoda easily deflects the attack or not is not mutually exclusive with the boundaries of the quote. You don't get to change the boundaries of quotes because it doesn't make sense in your head canon. The quote is OOU and binding. Yoda can survive the attack, someone less powerful than him will not. Simple.


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@LOTL wrote:Lmfao, let's not kid ourselves. Dooku "disarmed Yoda" by tagging him with lightning. No doubt, Dooku showing the battle technique and presence of mind to be able to tag someone like Yoda with lightning in the middle of battle is a great showing for him, it no more indicates parity with Yoda than Savage before being rage amped disarming Dooku indicates that he is comparable to Dooku or that it means anything:

How is disarming someone with lightning not as legitimate? It's still a disarm, whether via sabers or with the Force. Dooku still tags Yoda. Wait. What's that?

@LOTL wrote:it no more indicates parity with Yoda than Savage

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Latest?cb=20171118015115

When did I argue there was parity, or even suggest as much? Let me restate my opening argument yet again: "What does Maul have that compares to Dooku giving Yoda a good fight while exhausted, and even disarming Yoda in one of their duels?"

I'm asking for demonstrations from Maul that match Dooku.

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@LOTL wrote:Not to mention, we have a clear cut comparison as it is: Yoda being considerably hindered, is still noticeably better than Dooku that is considerably amped. Leading to a clear conclusion that Dooku is outclassed by him. This is in line with the vast number of primary accounts of the fight too supporting Dooku being outclassed against Yoda in AoTC, and unfortunately, outnumbered and retconned sources of Dooku's lightning pressuring Yoda are not enough to conclude that they are comparable. Now when I bring Sidious into the equation, but no problem, I'll give you time to recover before I move on to that

Again, waffling off about stuff that isn't relevant. See above.

@LOTL wrote:I am also pretty sure that ILS has said that there exists a source that states that Yoda only goes all out against Sidious in ROTS and not before. If such a thing is true, it lowers Dooku even more.

Even if the quote exists, that doesn't mean anything. The sources from the AotC duel indicate that Yoda wasn't holding back in any conventional sense. I'd say Yoda's "all out" against Sidious would be the equivelant of Qui-Gon fighting harder than Obi-Wan had ever seen him fight, during his last bout with Darth Maul. It is in no way a good comparison with conventional combative ability.

@LOTL wrote:So, they would writhe in agony for 10 hours before dying? Exactly what are you contending here? That they would survive for a few minutes or seconds? That doesn't matter. Refer to my argument above.

No, it means that if the opponent attempted tutaminis, there would be a tug of war before Dooku eventually overwhelmed them.
O-Siri
O-Siri

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 3 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:07 am
@Meatpants wrote:His argument in nonsensical. Yoda is deflecting Dooku's own lightning back at him, of course he can block it.

But how can Dooku survive his own attack, if you the quote says you have to be "as powerful as Yoda to survive it"? Dooku isn't as powerful as Yoda. You keep sidestepping this key crucial detail that destroys the entire basis of your argument. Unless again you really want to argue Dooku is just as powerful as Yoda.
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