Suspect Insight Forums

Go down
Set, The God of Chaos
Set, The God of Chaos
Level Four
Level Four

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 7th 2019, 9:22 am
@Sam

Except the comic is centered around Vader winning that fight. Vader ultimately won by using his durability to his advantage.


The comic is centered around the idea that Vader does have hate inside of him and that the Prophets are wrong when they say that he can't beat Maul due to having too much of the light in him. The fight is used as a way to prove that with him beating Maul through his own self-hatred. This doesn't prove he's a better fighter though.

Vader is still portrayed as the more smarter fighter.

Vader spends the entire fight getting his ass kicked and wins through a lucky cheapshot not through being a more intelligent fighter. Maul is faster, more agile and more skilled as is clearly portrayed in the comic.

Not to mention the phrophets confirmed he is better

When?

ANH Vader>=TPM Maul even if he is not as agile as Maul

Maul's agility wasn't a hugely relevant factor. Every hit Maul lands on Vader is when both their feet were on the ground.

More like: Maul>ANH Vader.
Set, The God of Chaos
Set, The God of Chaos
Level Four
Level Four

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 7th 2019, 9:25 am
@Trayus Marauder

Well, we have a g canon quote that indicates that the two are close (this can be put alongside various feats and scaling):

Which feats and which lines of scaling?

Anyway, the quote has several interpretations (I can just as easily interpret it as meaning they all aren't as strong as Sidious hence they are "like" each other) and I would be hesitant to say it's 100% canonical proof they are on a similar level.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 7th 2019, 9:48 am
Krayt Dies wrote:@Trayus Marauder

Well, we have a g canon quote that indicates that the two are close (this can be put alongside various feats and scaling):

Which feats and which lines of scaling?

Anyway, the quote has several interpretations (I can just as easily interpret it as meaning they all aren't as strong as Sidious hence they are "like" each other) and I would be hesitant to say it's 100% canonical proof they are on a similar level.

Orsis academy, Vader scaling, Windu comparison to name a few. Out of laziness I'll just link you this which covers the main points:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/the-power-of-darth-maul-1924925/

Interpretation is certainly a factor when looking at accolades but I'd say mine is the most straightforward explanation. Lucas references the injury, establishes what tier he sat on initially and then what tier he fell to with two characters being provided as an example. If Lucas was only making a reference to Vader being weaker than Sidious then why would he list specific characters to place alongside Vader, especially given how many could fit into that category of being inferior to Sidious.
Set, The God of Chaos
Set, The God of Chaos
Level Four
Level Four

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 7th 2019, 11:01 am
@Trayus Marauder

Orsis academy,

Impressive but Dooku scales massively beyond it given that he was more powerful than Maul when he first joined the Sith and had 10 years to grow thereafter (his growth was utterly colossal as can be seen in ROTS where he says he was introduced to powers "beyond his wildest fantasies").

Vader scaling,

Once again Dooku scales massively beyond Vader as well via Dooku>TPM Maul>ANH Vader.

Windu comparison

Now, this is where we get into TCW stuff which is imo the most relevant section of this post. The TPM shit is irrelevant and TCW is by far the best way to make arguments for Maul due to the power growth he undergoes during it. Anyway comparability to Mace Windu while impressive isn't really relevant to Dooku vs Maul imo (in fact it favours Dooku and places him significantly beyond Maul as I'll elaborate on below):

Dooku per SW.com possesses powers significantly in excess of peak Mother Talzin compared to Mace who is stalemated by her for a minute while she is weakened. Keep in mind that in order for her to be able to compete with Mace in sabers Talzin would have to be significantly more powerful than him due to her woeful technical skill: she gets rotfl stomped by Sidious in one panel in sabers despite her rivaling him in a Force battle and Sidious also claims she possesses none of Dooku's skill. This is in total contrast to Windu who per the ROTS Novelization possess "unmatched skills with a lightsaber".

Now that I've seen what you have to offer here are a few points for you to address:

-Dooku puts up a solid performance against Yoda in AOTC despite having had "a lot taken out of him" with him holding off Yoda for a full 20 seconds while the latter was trying to kill him and even matches his strength in a blade lock whereas Maul is practically speed blitzed by Sidious when enraged by his brothers death.

-In SoD despite having been drained of practically all his power by Talzin and being barely alive Dooku proves to be more powerful than Maul. As we can see in the comic both Talzin and Sidious stalemate in a Force Clash before the intervention of Dooku and Maul. Then both Dooku and Maul pool their power together on their respective sides of the clash. The result: Dooku and Sidious's power overwhelms Maul+Talzin's and given that Talzin and Sidious were stalemating prior the logical conclusion is that Dooku (while barely alive) possesses powers greater than Maul hence why the clash is pushed in Sidious's favor.

Out of laziness I'll just link you this which covers the main points:

It's a solid blog though I'm not convinced Maul is at all comparable to Dooku.

Interpretation is certainly a factor when looking at accolades but I'd say mine is the most straightforward explanation.

I'd agree that the quote semantically favours you but as I said before it's too vague and up to interpretation to really be definitive, binding proof.

Lucas references the injury, establishes what tier he sat on initially and then what tier he fell to with two characters being provided as an example.

He doesn't say which tier Vader fell to though. He only notes that Vader fell from as strong as Sidious to below him.

If Lucas was only making a reference to Vader being weaker than Sidious then why would he list specific characters to place alongside Vader, especially given how many could fit into that category of being inferior to Sidious.

He listed specific characters because they are relevant examples. He's talking about how Vader fell from being as strong as Sidious and also no longer had the power to surpass him. Maul and Dooku are mentioned because like Vader they never achieved their full potential and were inferior to their master.

Note: The above isn't meant to be a definitive interpretation of the statement but merely a plausible interpretation of it. Ultimately I don't think there's conclusive evidence either way hence why as I've said I don't think the statement is 100% canonical proof of anything and shouldn't be taken as binding especially not when feats comparisons clearly depict Dooku as significantly better imo.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 8th 2019, 9:14 am
Krayt Dies wrote:@Trayus Marauder

Orsis academy,

Impressive but Dooku scales massively beyond it given that he was more powerful than Maul when he first joined the Sith and had 10 years to grow thereafter (his growth was utterly colossal as can be seen in ROTS where he says he was introduced to powers "beyond his wildest fantasies").

Vader scaling,

Once again Dooku scales massively beyond Vader as well via Dooku>TPM Maul>ANH Vader.

Windu comparison

Now, this is where we get into TCW stuff which is imo the most relevant section of this post. The TPM shit is irrelevant and TCW is by far the best way to make arguments for Maul due to the power growth he undergoes during it. Anyway comparability to Mace Windu while impressive isn't really relevant to Dooku vs Maul imo (in fact it favours Dooku and places him significantly beyond Maul as I'll elaborate on below):

Dooku per SW.com possesses powers significantly in excess of peak Mother Talzin compared to Mace who is stalemated by her for a minute while she is weakened. Keep in mind that in order for her to be able to compete with Mace in sabers Talzin would have to be significantly more powerful than him due to her woeful technical skill: she gets rotfl stomped by Sidious in one panel in sabers despite her rivaling him in a Force battle and Sidious also claims she possesses none of Dooku's skill. This is in total contrast to Windu who per the ROTS Novelization possess "unmatched skills with a lightsaber".

Now that I've seen what you have to offer here are a few points for you to address:

-Dooku puts up a solid performance against Yoda in AOTC despite having had "a lot taken out of him" with him holding off Yoda for a full 20 seconds while the latter was trying to kill him and even matches his strength in a blade lock whereas Maul is practically speed blitzed by Sidious when enraged by his brothers death.

-In SoD despite having been drained of practically all his power by Talzin and being barely alive Dooku proves to be more powerful than Maul. As we can see in the comic both Talzin and Sidious stalemate in a Force Clash before the intervention of Dooku and Maul. Then both Dooku and Maul pool their power together on their respective sides of the clash. The result: Dooku and Sidious's power overwhelms Maul+Talzin's and given that Talzin and Sidious were stalemating prior the logical conclusion is that Dooku (while barely alive) possesses powers greater than Maul hence why the clash is pushed in Sidious's favor.

Out of laziness I'll just link you this which covers the main points:

It's a solid blog though I'm not convinced Maul is at all comparable to Dooku.

Interpretation is certainly a factor when looking at accolades but I'd say mine is the most straightforward explanation.

I'd agree that the quote semantically favours you but as I said before it's too vague and up to interpretation to really be definitive, binding proof.

Lucas references the injury, establishes what tier he sat on initially and then what tier he fell to with two characters being provided as an example.

He doesn't say which tier Vader fell to though. He only notes that Vader fell from as strong as Sidious to below him.

If Lucas was only making a reference to Vader being weaker than Sidious then why would he list specific characters to place alongside Vader, especially given how many could fit into that category of being inferior to Sidious.

He listed specific characters because they are relevant examples. He's talking about how Vader fell from being as strong as Sidious and also no longer had the power to surpass him. Maul and Dooku are mentioned because like Vader they never achieved their full potential and were inferior to their master.

Note: The above isn't meant to be a definitive interpretation of the statement but merely a plausible interpretation of it. Ultimately I don't think there's conclusive evidence either way hence why as I've said I don't think the statement is 100% canonical proof of anything and shouldn't be taken as binding especially not when feats comparisons clearly depict Dooku as significantly better imo.

You'll have to forgive me, my inexperience with this platform will mean that my response won't be as clean as yours. Now onto business.

While Dooku's growth time was impressive, we can't discount the growth time of Vader who had 4 years to climb and did so via several quotes. Also, Maul performed the Orsis academy feat at 15. He grew from then to TPM and went through significant growth again during TCW.

While your Talzin comparison holds some logic, I can use the same approach with a different line of scaling to highlight Maul as having a more impressive fight in the form of Savage. In his fight with Ventress/Dooku, he managed to dominate the pair with the force to the point where both coordinated their efforts just to drive him back. Keep in mind, Savage had previously suffered damage from multiple bursts of lightning from Dooku. Considering one burst was enough to take down AotC Anakin for some time, tanking multiple bursts in a short period of time and still putting on that level of performance is impressive. Meanwhile, Maul was capable of swiftly defeating Savage with Savage even making note of his power.

While Maul's performance vs Sidious is inferior to Dooku's performance vs Yoda, there are two points to consider. First, Sidious is a superior opponent. Not by a huge margin but the gap still exists. Second, Maul has a quote showing his performance which highlights that it wasn't totally one-sided:

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

For the Lucas quote, he clearly highlights Sidious as being in one tier and then Maul/Dooku being another thus why those comparisons are made. Not really sure how you could argue that the extent of Vader's tier drop is unknown when it's explicitly noted via direct mentions and comparison.

As you noted, my interpretation of the Lucas quote is favourable thus why it can serve as reasonable evidence to open up the possibility of comparison with Dooku while using other evidence to back up the idea which I've done. Just to make it 100% clear before we continue (in case you weren't already aware), I'm not in any way attempting to place Maul>Dooku. I'm simply justifying the idea of the gap between Dooku and Maul being small enough to justify having both in a similar tier with a gap of maybe one tier at most (depending on how one constructs their tier list).
Set, The God of Chaos
Set, The God of Chaos
Level Four
Level Four

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 12th 2019, 9:43 pm
@Trayus Marauder

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I'm on holiday with family and in general, am lazy hence why it took so long. Anyway, onto my rebuttal:

You'll have to forgive me, my inexperience with this platform will mean that my response won't be as clean as yours. Now onto business.

Alright, that's fair enough.

While Dooku's growth time was impressive, we can't discount the growth time of Vader who had 4 years to climb and did so via several quotes.

I know. I never claimed that Dooku should be beyond Peak Vader based on this just that he scales massively above Maul's superiority to ANH Vader so it's not a relevant factor for concluding Maul's power is ~ Dooku's.

Also, Maul performed the Orsis academy feat at 15. He grew from then to TPM and went through significant growth again during TCW.

The fact that he grew massively up till TPM is irrelevant as I've already explained that Dooku scales significantly beyond TPM Maul. The only real case for Maul involves using his showings in TCW as he undergoes significant growth during them so a possibility could exist that he is beyond Dooku.

While your Talzin comparison holds some logic, I can use the same approach with a different line of scaling to highlight Maul as having a more impressive fight in the form of Savage.

I'll address your points in regards to Savage in a sec but I'd like to point out first that I don't think he's a very reliable character to scale off of. He obviously possesses incredible raw power but how much of that power he can use in combat is the main issue. He's prone to violent outbursts where he unleashes his power with greater strength than usual and given that his emotional state in his fight with Dooku was different from his fight with Maul I'd be hesitant to use it as a reliable indicator of anything.

In his fight with Ventress/Dooku, he managed to dominate the pair with the force to the point where both coordinated their efforts just to drive him back.

You are aware that seconds prior Dooku was dancing around them and had Savage helpless at his mercy with Force Lightning right? Savage achieves this feat through a rage amp that was not present in his matchup with Maul. It's not a reliable scaling method to place Maul close to Dooku.

Keep in mind, Savage had previously suffered damage from multiple bursts of lightning from Dooku. Considering one burst was enough to take down AotC Anakin for some time, tanking multiple bursts in a short period of time and still putting on that level of performance is impressive.

The Lightning was enraging Savage which made him more powerful... It wasn't hindering him.

Meanwhile, Maul was capable of swiftly defeating Savage with Savage even making note of his power.

Maul defeated Savage through superior technical skill. In terms of power they're stated to be comparable.

While Maul's performance vs Sidious is inferior to Dooku's performance vs Yoda, there are two points to consider. First, Sidious is a superior opponent. Not by a huge margin but the gap still exists. Second, Maul has a quote showing his performance which highlights that it wasn't totally one-sided:

1. Disagreed that Sidious is the superior opponent. They're equals imo which is supported by several quotes.

2. Maul may have been able to block a few blows but that doesn't mean his performance wasn't worse than Dooku's (keep in mind Dooku was exhausted by his previous battle with Skywalker as I previously stated).

Also, there was no rebuttal to my other comparison from SoD.

For the Lucas quote, he clearly highlights Sidious as being in one tier and then Maul/Dooku being another thus why those comparisons are made. Not really sure how you could argue that the extent of Vader's tier drop is unknown when it's explicitly noted via direct mentions and comparison.

It's noted he is below Sidious like Maul and Dooku are as I stated in my previous post (once again I don't view this interpretation as definitive but imo it can vit and due to the quotes vague nature I don't think it should be used as binding proof). It's unknown because all Lucas tells us is that he dropped below Sidious but he didn't tell us how far he dropped.

As you noted, my interpretation of the Lucas quote is favourable thus why it can serve as reasonable evidence to open up the possibility of comparison with Dooku while using other evidence to back up the idea which I've done.

Favourable does not mean definitive or binding and given that the quote contradicts a lot of the lore I'd say my alternative interpretation is the more reasonable one to take. I don't buy into your comparisons at all and I don't think Maul is on the same tier as Dooku (this largely depends on how massive gaps you allow between characters on your tiers).

Just to make it 100% clear before we continue (in case you weren't already aware), I'm not in any way attempting to place Maul>Dooku. I'm simply justifying the idea of the gap between Dooku and Maul being small enough to justify having both in a similar tier with a gap of maybe one tier at most (depending on how one constructs their tier list).

Fair enough.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 8:04 am
@Grey's Apprentice

Now time to address all of this. I'll cover the various talking points as sections rather than using quotes within quotes that could get messy. It seems you don't necessarily disagree with my final assessment, rather the evidence I use to support my claims which I'll cover now:

Part 1 (the late SoD comparison counter):

I reread the comic and noticed a flaw in your overall analysis. You made the claim that Talzin/Sidious stalemate was broken by Dooku's added power when you failed to notice the circumstances behind it. To cover it in a nutshell:

A. Talzin's shield was looking no weaker than it was when she was facing Sidious alone. The Dooku contribution had minimal effect
B. Talzin broke her concentration by aiding Maul's escape
C. Maul leaving the fight was against his will which means that Talzin moving him away from the fight would have taken a significant amount of effort
D. Grievous was also present and was able to move through the shield (once weakened and less focused).

Part 2 (stuff too small to deserve a section):

Feat wise, what does Dooku have to compare to the orsis academy feat? Keep in mind, this was done way before TPM Maul's prime. Also, how far do you think the gap is between Maul and Dooku. First for TPM, then for TCW.

Part 3 (Savage):

For your lightning point, I don't really see how you can argue against it hindering him. Lightning has always had the effect of weakening its victims and Savage is no exception. In the fight itself, we saw Savage being brought to his knees with every burst.

With your point of Dooku dancing around Savage, note that the version of Savage that faced was more experienced overall so using the Dooku match to downgrade his S5 self isn't really a fair comparison.

As for quotes placing Savage and Maul as equals, do you have a source for that?

Part 4 (Sidious points)

There may be quotes placing Yoda and Sidious as equals but there are also quotes placing Sidious as superior so there's a conflict with that comparison.

To drop a new piece of evidence, here's the Savage/Maul vs Sidious fight with additional footage which highlights how well Maul performed which is further justification for Maul being near Dooku overall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8zGOq0PHuU&fbclid=IwAR11xcMTDXMoI4oaUKwosfbKevJWkjfafZ27UOsStcq6vHdXTcCOb1VAJ_I

I could continue with more but I'd say we have more than enough to discuss already.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator
Moderator

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 8:12 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:Feat wise, what does Dooku have to compare to the orsis academy feat? Keep in mind, this was done way before TPM Maul's prime. Also, how far do you think the gap is between Maul and Dooku. First for TPM, then for TCW.

What does Maul have that compares to Dooku giving Yoda a good fight while exhausted, and even disarming Yoda in one of their duels?

TPM: Dooku beats Maul mid difficulty
TCW/RotS: Dooku beats Maul low-mid difficulty
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 8:25 am
@Meatpants wrote:
@Trayus Marauder wrote:Feat wise, what does Dooku have to compare to the orsis academy feat? Keep in mind, this was done way before TPM Maul's prime. Also, how far do you think the gap is between Maul and Dooku. First for TPM, then for TCW.

What does Maul have that compares to Dooku giving Yoda a good fight while exhausted, and even disarming Yoda in one of their duels?

TPM: Dooku beats Maul mid difficulty
TCW/RotS: Dooku beats Maul low-mid difficulty

Refresh my memory, which duel was Yoda disarmed in? Let's not exaggerate, Dooku was not exhausted to the extent where it would significantly hinder his fighting capabilities. Also, did you not see the footage I offered? Finally, that doesn't answer the question presented.

Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator
Moderator

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 8:37 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:Refresh my memory, which duel was Yoda disarmed in?

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Image0

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Let's not exaggerate, Dooku was not exhausted to the extent where it would significantly hinder his fighting capabilities.

It also wasn't Dooku at fresh capacity, especially since Anakin gave him a really good fight that went on for an extended period of time.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Also, did you not see the footage I offered?

Since when was footage not included in the final cut useable? I could just as easily pull the quotes from Hidalgo talking about how the fight was supposed to show how easily above Maul and Savage combined Sidious is.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:07 am
Yoda was slowing down based on assumed weakness. Arrogance is admittedly an uncommon trait for Yoda but it is pretty clear in the example you provided. Also, if Dooku were capable of performing such a feat consistently then how do you explain their battle on Vjun where Dooku had a significant advantage due to the nexus yet was unable to beat Yoda, with the novel even noting Yoda's superiority:

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

For the Dooku vs Yoda fight on Geonosis, it was such a short fight and again, not really as lopsided as you make it out to be.

As for the footage, do you have a quote or some technicality from the canon policy that indicates it is unusable? Deleted scenes are permitted as long as there is no contradiction made and that footage is not a contradiction. It's simply an extension that was happening off-screen while the show displayed Kenobi at that point in time. Of course, Sidious being better is undeniable. However, it does show that Maul/Dooku are comparable against opponents within the Yoda/Sidious tier.

O-Siri
O-Siri

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:11 am
The Orisis academy feat is suspect since it was an involuntary display of power, which we know can allow even neophytes to perform feats well beyond their current applicable power, e.g. Zannah's throttling of two Jedi and disintegrating Darovit's hand as a nine-year-old with no training, even though she was outmatched by a dozen riderless drexel tamers just a few days later.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:24 am
Kilius wrote:The Orisis academy feat is suspect since it was an involuntary display of power, which we know can allow even neophytes to perform feats well beyond their current applicable power, e.g. Zannah's throttling of two Jedi and disintegrating Darovit's hand as a nine-year-old with no training, even though she was outmatched by a dozen riderless drexel tamers just a few days later.

Interesting view though I'd argue that Maul's years of growth after the event would lead to force development that would allow him to replicate/exceed the mentioned feat.
O-Siri
O-Siri

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:26 am
OT I maintain that OT Vader is inconsistent with his Post-2005 portrayals. Compositing just makes matters confusing so I separate the two, much like TCW Grievous and pre-2008 Grievous. But most are probably tired of me saying that so I just stay out of Vader debates in general unless it's Disney Canon.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator
Moderator

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:27 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:Yoda was slowing down based on assumed weakness. Arrogance is admittedly an uncommon trait for Yoda but it is pretty clear in the example you provided. Also, if Dooku were capable of performing such a feat consistently then how do you explain their battle on Vjun where Dooku had a significant advantage due to the nexus yet was unable to beat Yoda, with the novel even noting Yoda's superiority:

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

For the Dooku vs Yoda fight on Geonosis, it was such a short fight and again, not really as lopsided as you make it out to be.

Yoda appears to have been similarly drawing on Vjun's energy, but that's a can of worms. Let's talk about a more direct power feat from Dooku from Geonosis, where "Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Meaning only Yoda, Sidious and arguably Windu could survive a Force attack from Dooku. Furthermore, "Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily." I don't see any power feat from Maul that matches.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:As for the footage, do you have a quote or some technicality from the canon policy that indicates it is unusable? Deleted scenes are permitted as long as there is no contradiction made and that footage is not a contradiction. It's simply an extension that was happening off-screen while the show displayed Kenobi at that point in time. Of course, Sidious being better is undeniable. However, it does show that Maul/Dooku are comparable against opponents within the Yoda/Sidious tier.

Again, I could just as easily quote Hidalgo telling us what the fight represents, which is that Sidious is far beyond both Maul and Savage combined.
O-Siri
O-Siri

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:30 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:
Kilius wrote:The Orisis academy feat is suspect since it was an involuntary display of power, which we know can allow even neophytes to perform feats well beyond their current applicable power, e.g. Zannah's throttling of two Jedi and disintegrating Darovit's hand as a nine-year-old with no training, even though she was outmatched by a dozen riderless drexel tamers just a few days later.

Interesting view though I'd argue that Maul's years of growth after the event would lead to force development that would allow him to replicate/exceed the mentioned feat.

TPM Maul should definitely be able to replicate the feat yeah.
Set, The God of Chaos
Set, The God of Chaos
Level Four
Level Four

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:34 am
@Trayus Marauder

I'll get back to you later today or tomorrow.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:39 am
@Kilius

That's all I'm trying to show really. That Maul's placement near Dooku/Vader via Lucas is justified therefore my interpretation of the quote is accurate.

@Meatpants

Your quote involving survival against Dooku's force attacks is proven false by Kenobi. He gets hit by a force attack from Dooku and survives despite being well below Mace/Yoda. We also have Anakin earlier in TCW survive against Dooku's force attacks. It's safe to say that quote is debunked.

I don't disagree with Hidalgo in the sense that Sidious is ahead of Maul. However, he is able to compete to some extent. Just as Yoda is ahead of Dooku but Dooku can compete to some extent. Though as I noted before, I don't have Maul>Dooku or Dooku=Maul. I simply have both in the same tier and am justifying Maul's legitimate claim to that position.

As for "far beyond" in relation to Sidious/Maul, one could argue the same for Yoda>Dooku. After all, Anakin via the RotS novel was able to stomp Dooku once he unleashed himself and Gillard/Lucas have Anakin/Yoda as being on the same tier so Yoda could very well perform something similar, perhaps with just a little more difficulty considering saber form matchup.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator
Moderator

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 9:47 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:Your quote involving survival against Dooku's force attacks is proven false by Kenobi. He gets hit by a force attack from Dooku and survives despite being well below Mace/Yoda. We also have Anakin earlier in TCW survive against Dooku's force attacks. It's safe to say that quote is debunked.

Um, since when does Dooku have to be going all-out with his lightning every time? Are you seriously saying that Dooku's lightning attack against Kenobi was his full potency? The sources clearly indicate that only a Jedi as powerful as Yoda can survive the attack Dooku used against him. Instead of logically coming to the conclusion that Dooku was clearly using a higher potency attack against Yoda; your alternative idea is to claim that various sources should be completely thrown out and assume that every time Dooku uses lightning, it's always at full potency. That's clearly wrong.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:I don't disagree with Hidalgo in the sense that Sidious is ahead of Maul. However, he is able to compete to some extent. Just as Yoda is ahead of Dooku but Dooku can compete to some extent. Though as I noted before, I don't have Maul>Dooku or Dooku=Maul. I simply have both in the same tier and am justifying Maul's legitimate claim to that position.

Yeah, prove that Sidious was even close to full power in that fight against Maul, then we'll talk.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 10:21 am
@Meatpants

Here are multiple examples of Dooku logically using max potency lightning against opponents and them surviving:

Dooku vs Anakin (naboo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQATBFIZ13o

Dooku vs Ventress/Nightsisters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyiDDQYPUIs

Dooku vs Ventress (1v1 portion of the fight)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7lenc8zSbg

As for showing Sidious putting in effort with the Maul/Savage fight, note that at 2:42 his expression changes from carefree happiness to an almost annoyed expression. This change in enjoyment shows that Sidious was keen to end the fight there thus finishing off Savage and knocking out Maul for a period. Yet 1v1, Maul managed to hang on for a period of time and even manages to land a few hits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg
O-Siri
O-Siri

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 10:21 am
The quote is likely referring to tutaminis tbh plus Dooku himself; confirmed to be less powerful than Yoda, withstood the same redirected attack.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator
Moderator

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 10:37 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:@Meatpants

Here are multiple examples of Dooku logically using max potency lightning against opponents and them surviving:

Dooku vs Anakin (naboo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQATBFIZ13o

Dooku vs Ventress/Nightsisters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyiDDQYPUIs

Dooku vs Ventress (1v1 portion of the fight)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7lenc8zSbg

This is the bottom of the barrel, isn't it? For the first fight, do you seriously think that Sidious would have allowed Dooku to kill Anakin? For the Nightsisters episode, Dooku was WEAKENED by poison, and disorientated that entire fight. The third example again is hopeless: by that point, Dooku had penetrated Ventress' Force defenses and disarmed her, she was virtually defenseless, so clearly the lightning attack was punishment, considering again that Dooku can produce lightning only Sidious or Yoda can survive against. People like Bane, who Dooku is clearly superior to can reduce people to ashes with lightning. If Dooku wanted to kill a defensless Ventress with lightning, it would be all too easy.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:As for showing Sidious putting in effort with the Maul/Savage fight, note that at 2:42 his expression changes from carefree happiness to an almost annoyed expression. This change in enjoyment shows that Sidious was keen to end the fight there thus finishing off Savage and knocking out Maul for a period. Yet 1v1, Maul managed to hang on for a period of time and even manages to land a few hits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Oh, so we're using facial expressions over textual evidence now, are we?

Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor. Then Sidious seized his former apprentice with the Force, hurling him against the wall. Maul’s vision swam. He tried to get up, but realized he was already in the air, held aloft by the Force. Sidious slammed him into the floor. Then Maul was off the ground again, legs kicking for purchase in empty air. He could taste blood in his mouth. His head hit the wall with a sickening crunch.

Furthermore, physical hits are no indication of parity in the slighest. You've got no legs to stand on here.
Set, The God of Chaos
Set, The God of Chaos
Level Four
Level Four

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 10:41 am
This thread is hilarious.

O-Siri
O-Siri

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 10:45 am
Nah Dooku doesn't scale from Bane's feat. He's never even killed fodder instantly; something Bane can do even while hindered and without Orbalisks. Nor is he "clearly" more powerful. He has no relativity to Yoda who schooled him like a youngling on Geonosis. Banete Scaling can take a hike.

Set, The God of Chaos
Set, The God of Chaos
Level Four
Level Four

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

on July 17th 2019, 10:48 am
KILIUS.
Sponsored content

Where to rank Vader ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Where to rank Vader ?

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum