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DarthAnt66
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on October 20th 2020, 10:18 pm
Sith Archivist wrote:
@Thij wrote:
The only evidence for Kasi'm being the best duelist as of his time comes from bane's inflated opinion. Don't see any reason Kasi'm should be superior to malak, malgus, etc.
Kas'im being the best duelist of his time comes from the omniscient narrator. It's not Bane's opinion.

@Sith Archivist: Most Star Wars novels, including the Bane Trilogy, don't really have an omniscient narrator. It's all in close third / third-person limited.
Seturna
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on October 21st 2020, 5:44 am
Sith Archivist wrote:
@Seturna wrote:1. Depa Billaba
2. Lucien Draay
3. Scout
4. Whie
5. Kas’im
6. Exar Kun
7. Shaak Ti
8. Agen Kolar
9. Saesee Tiin
10. Starkiller
Terrible list

Oh yeah, forgot the Sword of the Jedi.
KingKopecz
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on October 21st 2020, 6:07 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@Sith Archivist: Most Star Wars novels, including the Bane Trilogy, don't really have an omniscient narrator. It's all in close third / third-person limited.
Drew has confirmed a lot of his narrative is from an omniscient narrator when analysing Zannah's victory over Bane.
 The second odd assumption you have to make to think Bane destroyed Zannah is to assume that you are dealing with an unreliable narrator. Once Zannah identifies herself, I refer to her as “her” and “Zannah” throughout the scene. To believe Bane took over, you have to assume that I am intentionally misleading you throughout that scene for a cheap GOTCHA moment at the end. But I’ve never done that in any of the previous Bane novels. The narrator has always played fair with the reader, and I think it would be unfair to suddenly change that in the last few pages of a trilogy. Unfortunately, “twist” endings have become so prevalent recently that I think people assume narrators are unreliable now by default; the narrative paradigm has been flipped on its head. (I blame M. Night Shyamalan.)
I realize this is my fault, of course. My writing is usually very straight ahead; I tend to eschew ambiguity because it leads to misinterpretation. I am usually very explicit about my characters and my authorial intent.
DarthAnt66
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on October 21st 2020, 9:32 am
@Sith Archivist:

I'm not sure where he says it's omniscient there. The narrator  being fair and not misleading doesn't mean the narrator doesn't reflect Bane's thoughts and have a dark-side slant. When asked to comment on whether the Kas'im quote is IUL or IUO, Drew has declined to comment and said to leave it open to interpretation. Especially also considering the precedent that most EU books are in-universe limited and the significance of the claim, I think the default/neutral position here is that it's Bane's thinking. 

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KingKopecz
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on October 21st 2020, 9:53 am
@DarthAnt66
Even so, it was still likely not Bane's opinion since he didn't know anything about that weren't at the Sith academy so it wouldn't make sense for Bane to state how Kas'im compares to every other duelist in the galaxy relative to his time.
DarthAnt66
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on October 21st 2020, 9:58 am
@Sith Archivist: Consider Bane had already interacted with all the major Sith of the era and received a measure of their power and abilities. I find it very plausible that Bane knows enough to at least personally believe that the Sith Academy Blademaster, who was currently kicking his ass in a duel, is the greatest Sith duelist around.
KingKopecz
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on October 21st 2020, 10:21 am
@DarthAnt66
The quote says he was the greatest living duelist in the galaxy. That is also taking into account all the Jedi duelists as well. Aside from Kas'im, the only other duelists Bane had fought at this time were students at the Sith academy. It wouldn't make sense for Bane to make such a claim.
DarthAnt66
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on October 21st 2020, 11:35 am
@Sith Archivist: Why would Bane think some unknown Jedi duelists may be better than the legendary Sith Battlemaster currently beating him? Note that Bane believes in dark side supremacy and repeatedly comments that the Sith are generally greater warriors but the Jedi are winning through other means like numbers and cooperation. Besides, characters make statements and have beliefs without full knowledge to back it all the time. Palpatine says Maul has unrivaled lightsaber skills--it's unlikely he personally analyzed every Jedi ever to make sure that statement is true. Vader says Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever--did he meditate into the past and get a gauge of the extent of Sadow, Kun, and Vitiate's powers? Revan says Vitiate is the greatest destructive evil ever--but it's unlikely he knows all about the threat of Abeloth and the Ones. I would contend it would be more surprising / less likely that a novel like this would abruptly shift to third-person omniscient.

Edit: To add to that, it's probable Bane knows of the greatest Jedi warriors from his studies on Korriban (why wouldn't the Sith apprentices learn about their enemies?).


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on October 21st 2020, 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edit)
LadyKulvax
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on October 21st 2020, 7:23 pm
1.Grand Master Skywalker.
2.Grand Master Yoda.
3.Anakin Skywalker.
4.Darth Sidious.
5.Count Dooku.
6.Exar Kun.
7.Mace Windu.
8.Obi-Wan Kenobi.
9.Ulic Qel-Droma.
10.Darth Maul.
Geistalt
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on October 22nd 2020, 7:18 pm
LUL this forum now has not one, but 3 Kun wankers
Vaelias
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on October 22nd 2020, 9:24 pm
@Geistalt wrote:LUL this forum now has not one, but 3 Kun wankers

Simply look at how he scales to ROTJ Sidious level

If you deny Kun as one of the top 5 sith you Don’t know enough about him
DarthAnt66
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on October 22nd 2020, 10:06 pm
@Vaelias wrote:
@Geistalt wrote:LUL this forum now has not one, but 3 Kun wankers

Simply look at how he scales to ROTJ Sidious level

If you deny Kun as one of the top 5 sith you Don’t know enough about him

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Vaelias
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on October 22nd 2020, 10:21 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
@Geistalt wrote:LUL this forum now has not one, but 3 Kun wankers

Simply look at how he scales to ROTJ Sidious level

If you deny Kun as one of the top 5 sith you Don’t know enough about him

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U read the French quote ?
DarthAnt66
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on October 22nd 2020, 10:32 pm
The non-canon one from the early 1990s?  Top 10 lightsaber Duelists  - Page 2 3146861145

Note that Malak aside, ROTS Palpatine and Anakin are bound above Kun, and ROTJ Palpatine is infinitely more powerful than them.
Vaelias
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on October 22nd 2020, 10:37 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:The non-canon one from the early 1990s? ;) 

Note that Malak aside, ROTS Palpatine and Anakin are bound above Kun, and ROTJ Palpatine is infinitely more powerful than them.

Yeh I’m aware that ROTS Palp is the most powerful but being stated to be ROTJ Palp level is enough to be put in third place just below Palp an Vader

May you provide the quote stating that ROTS Sidious is the most powerful sith ever please ive read it but can’t find it anywhere, also does that also lock ROTS Palps and Vader above Krayt or not? Seeing as he is after Palp
DarthAnt66
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on October 22nd 2020, 10:53 pm
I have little doubt that Kun was intended in the 1990s to be comparable to ROTJ Palpatine. A lot of in-universe and author statements attest to that. After all, he was the only prominent major dark side baddie besides Palpatine around. However, with the prequel trilogy, KOTOR, and SWTOR, we see Kun's relative position continually drop. Multiple 1999 statements emphasize Palpatine and Maul are proof that the Sith are back and more powerful than ever. 2002 statements prop KOTOR's new dark side baddie above Kun with LFL's support. Infinite 2005-2014 statements label ROTS Palpatine as the most powerful Sith ever, meaning Kun couldn't even lick ROTJ Palpatine's shoes. 2012-2014 statements hail Vitiate as the most powerful dark sider ever per the SWTOR characters and sourcebooks. Meanwhile, again, all of Kun's big supremacy quotes are from decades past and long retconned, and most (like the French quote you're thinking about) were never recognized as binding canon anyway. 

Also, you can read most of ROTS Palpatine's supremacy quotes in this thread: 

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3778-top-fifteen-most-powerful-star-wars-characters-ultimate-source-compendium
Darth Nihilus
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on October 22nd 2020, 11:46 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:I have little doubt that Kun was intended in the 1990s to be comparable to ROTJ Palpatine. A lot of in-universe and author statements attest to that. After all, he was the only prominent major dark side baddie besides Palpatine around. However, with the prequel trilogy, KOTOR, and SWTOR, we see Kun's relative position continually drop. Multiple 1999 statements emphasize Palpatine and Maul are proof that the Sith are back and more powerful than ever. 2002 statements prop KOTOR's new dark side baddie above Kun with LFL's support. Infinite 2005-2014 statements label ROTS Palpatine as the most powerful Sith ever, meaning Kun couldn't even lick ROTJ Palpatine's shoes. 2012-2014 statements hail Vitiate as the most powerful dark sider ever per the SWTOR characters and sourcebooks. Meanwhile, again, all of Kun's big supremacy quotes are from decades past and long retconned, and most (like the French quote you're thinking about) were never recognized as binding canon anyway. 

Also, you can read most of ROTS Palpatine's supremacy quotes in this thread: 

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3778-top-fifteen-most-powerful-star-wars-characters-ultimate-source-compendium

Not to mention that KOTOR 3's ancient Sith were probably even meant to be more powerful than the known ancient Sith.
LadyKulvax
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on October 23rd 2020, 12:08 am
Given almost all of those are secondary material or can be considered part of marketing campaigns whereas Kun's statements are all either derived directly from the original source material or are straight up OOU statements from primary peer reviewed sources. Literally none of that's true.
Master Azronger
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on October 24th 2020, 10:00 am
@Vaelias

Kun scales over the likes of ROTJ Sidious in power

Citation needed. If you're referring to the French quote, it may not even necessarily refer to power, and even TPM Sidious has at least three statements solidifying his position as the most powerful Sith Lord to have ever existed. This number is only redoubled by his later incarnations.

If you're applying Jedi Academy feats and accolades to living Kun from Tales of the Jedi, that doesn't work because Kun became more powerful after consuming the Massassi race, but he remained a spirit that was unable to exist without an anchor. We're looking at these characters on neutral ground without nexuses, so spirit Kun would simply dissipate on the spot and lose a duel even to an untrained youngling.

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And why would Bane not be here, he’s fast to the point where he can dodge rain, applying that into combat he’s likely faster than Sidious who relies entirely on force speed in combat.

He didn't dodge rain; he formed a shield out of his lightsaber by spinning it quick enough to remain dry for ten minutes - an impressive feat, but it's baseless to conclude it'd place him beyond Sidious who has exorbitantly more Force reserves to draw on, and is therefore capable of outputting exorbitantly more power than Bane. Not to mention, moving faster than the a hyper-perceptive Force-sensitive's eye or Force perceptions can follow is likely a superior feat to blocking rain - the speed to accomplish that is much greater - and Sidious has done that as early as TPM to Maul.

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LadyKulvax
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on October 24th 2020, 10:11 am
@Master Azronger wrote:@Vaelias

Kun scales over the likes of ROTJ Sidious in power

If you're applying Jedi Academy feats and accolades to living Kun from Tales of the Jedi, that doesn't work because Kun became more powerful after consuming the Massassi race, but he remained a spirit that was unable to exist without an anchor.

This is factually incorrect via numerous sources and statements. The spirit of Exar Kun had its power extinguished by the wall of light, by the time of the GCW he gets defeated by a random group of featless spacers (Star Wars Galaxies Ch.9) and in the actual novels of Jedi Academy we have numerous sources stating outright that he's powerless without feeding on his thralls. We also know that his goal is to return in living form and the only way to do that was to restore his lost reserves of Force energy from his living state.

My respect thread makes this undeniably clear. It's not even debatable anymore.
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on October 24th 2020, 2:28 pm
@Master Azronger wrote:@Vaelias

Kun scales over the likes of ROTJ Sidious in power

Citation needed. If you're referring to the French quote, it may not even necessarily refer to power, and even TPM Sidious has at least three statements solidifying his position as the most powerful Sith Lord to have ever existed. This number is only redoubled by his later incarnations.

If you're applying Jedi Academy feats and accolades to living Kun from Tales of the Jedi, that doesn't work because Kun became more powerful after consuming the Massassi race, but he remained a spirit that was unable to exist without an anchor. We're looking at these characters on neutral ground without nexuses, so spirit Kun would simply dissipate on the spot and lose a duel even to an untrained youngling.

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And why would Bane not be here, he’s fast to the point where he can dodge rain, applying that into combat he’s likely faster than Sidious who relies entirely on force speed in combat.

He didn't dodge rain; he formed a shield out of his lightsaber by spinning it quick enough to remain dry for ten minutes - an impressive feat, but it's baseless to conclude it'd place him beyond Sidious who has exorbitantly more Force reserves to draw on, and is therefore capable of outputting exorbitantly more power than Bane. Not to mention, moving faster than the a hyper-perceptive Force-sensitive's eye or Force perceptions can follow is likely a superior feat to blocking rain - the speed to accomplish that is much greater - and Sidious has done that as early as TPM to Maul.

Yes I’m referring to the French quote I have also checked it myself I have a mate who speaks fluent French and his confirmed it and then my other mate knows some actual French dude and he also confirmed it said the same thing, obviously Sidious as of ROTS Is the most powerful Sith ever, but that quote pushes Kun to second place and then Vitiates supremacy quotes put him just above Kun meaning that a top 4 sith would be
Sheev
Vader (parity with sheev)
Vitiate
Kun

When it comes to dueling tho Sidious never even trained the full time with Maul, who did most of his training with bots, and then maul nearly bested him in a spar anyway, yes he was taunted but goes to show Sidious being out of practice does show, he may have mastered all forms but he never practices with it an it shows in his spar with maul when he was almost overwhelmed, plus he relies too heavily on his insane force speed augmentation, and doesn’t even have much technical skill

Also may I see those quotes from TPM implying Sidious may be the most powerful by that point
Master Azronger
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on October 25th 2020, 4:40 am
@Vaelias wrote:Yes I’m referring to the French quote I have also checked it myself I have a mate who speaks fluent French and his confirmed it and then my other mate knows some actual French dude and he also confirmed it said the same thing, obviously Sidious as of ROTS Is the most powerful Sith ever, but that quote pushes Kun to second place and then Vitiates supremacy quotes put him just above Kun meaning that a top 4 sith would be
Sheev
Vader (parity with sheev)
Vitiate
Kun

I've seen others claim it doesn't refer to power; I'd need the testimony of a vast majority of French speakers saying the most straightforward interpretation would be that it's referring to Force power, which I don't buy at the moment. Regardless, Kun is not only bound beneath Vitiate and TPM Sidious by a greater quantity of evidence, he is also hardcapped below Malak by a more recent, less ambiguous accolade.

When it comes to dueling tho Sidious never even trained the full time with Maul, who did most of his training with bots, and then maul nearly bested him in a spar anyway, yes he was taunted but goes to show Sidious being out of practice does show, he may have mastered all forms but he never practices with it an it shows in his spar with maul when he was almost overwhelmed, plus he relies too heavily on his insane force speed augmentation, and doesn’t even have much technical skill

Sidious did spar with Maul many times, instructing him with the lightsaber as well as multiple hand-to-hand martial arts. He also sparred with Plagueis, and after TPM - when he would have had even less time to train given his newfound duties as Supreme Chancellor - he was still skilled enough to teach Dooku new things with the blade, so he definitely wasn't "out of practice" or whatever you mean by that.

But regardless, I don't get this logic. So Sidious is bad because Maul nearly bested him once (for the record, Maul himself noted that Sidious had barely tapped into his reserves so he may not have been going all-out)? Why doesn't that just make Maul good? Sidious is a level 9 duelist by ROTS, with Anakin and Yoda and above Dooku, so he definitely has technical skill in spades. Him relying on Force augmentation is literally what everyone else does too - I don't see why it would detract from his technical skill.

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with Bane. He's clearly inferior to Sidious in every conceivable way by a vast margin. You didn't have a rebuttal to my point.

Also may I see those quotes from TPM implying Sidious may be the most powerful by that point

They're in the link Ant cited.

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on October 25th 2020, 5:16 am
@Master Azronger wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:Yes I’m referring to the French quote I have also checked it myself I have a mate who speaks fluent French and his confirmed it and then my other mate knows some actual French dude and he also confirmed it said the same thing, obviously Sidious as of ROTS Is the most powerful Sith ever, but that quote pushes Kun to second place and then Vitiates supremacy quotes put him just above Kun meaning that a top 4 sith would be
Sheev
Vader (parity with sheev)
Vitiate
Kun

I've seen others claim it doesn't refer to power; I'd need the testimony of a vast majority of French speakers saying the most straightforward interpretation would be that it's referring to Force power, which I don't buy at the moment. Regardless, Kun is not only bound beneath Vitiate and TPM Sidious by a greater quantity of evidence, he is also hardcapped below Malak by a more recent, less ambiguous accolade.

When it comes to dueling tho Sidious never even trained the full time with Maul, who did most of his training with bots, and then maul nearly bested him in a spar anyway, yes he was taunted but goes to show Sidious being out of practice does show, he may have mastered all forms but he never practices with it an it shows in his spar with maul when he was almost overwhelmed, plus he relies too heavily on his insane force speed augmentation, and doesn’t even have much technical skill

Sidious did spar with Maul many times, instructing him with the lightsaber as well as multiple hand-to-hand martial arts. He also sparred with Plagueis, and after TPM - when he would have had even less time to train given his newfound duties as Supreme Chancellor - he was still skilled enough to teach Dooku new things with the blade, so he definitely wasn't "out of practice" or whatever you mean by that.

But regardless, I don't get this logic. So Sidious is bad because Maul nearly bested him once (for the record, Maul himself noted that Sidious had barely tapped into his reserves so he may not have been going all-out)? Why doesn't that just make Maul good? Sidious is a level 9 duelist by ROTS, with Anakin and Yoda and above Dooku, so he definitely has technical skill in spades. Him relying on Force augmentation is literally what everyone else does too - I don't see why it would detract from his technical skill.

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with Bane. He's clearly inferior to Sidious in every conceivable way by a vast margin. You didn't have a rebuttal to my point.

Also may I see those quotes from TPM implying Sidious may be the most powerful by that point

They're in the link Ant cited.

Ah yes that ONE accolade for Malak>Kun that is the ONLY evidence that Malak is > Kun even though Kun is better at literally everything hahaha, I remember u used to have Kun at second lol

And I’m not saying Sidious is bad but I’m saying there are people more technically skilled than him u can c him being sloppy in his fight with maul and savage, yes he was throwing the fight but that’s exactly he can afford to be sloppy, because his force augmentation is god tier, in other words he doesn’t need to try, so he’s sloppy and there are people more technically skilled than him
LadyKulvax
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on October 25th 2020, 5:23 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The SWTOR:E is dubiously acceptable given that BiOWare confirmation of authenticity isn't the same as an LFL source. So their power to authenticate a claim as strong as a supremacy quote that binds lore far beyond their own narrative is limited.

TPM Sidious quotes really aren't very convincing given the publisher they come from and the amount of lore even provided within context.

The Malak quote has been beaten to death so badly that it's very relevance is disappearing as time goes on.

Meanwhile, Exar Kun has quotes supported by numerous starwars.com brands or quotes and feats that hail from bona fide original source material. Not merely secondary sourcebooks or cereal box quotes. So yes, Kun's placement hasn't changed regardless of any of the above. He remains one of the very top super powerhouses of the mythos.
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on October 26th 2020, 12:42 am
Might change this later, off the top of my head I would say something like:

1) Luke - of course
2) DE Sheev - he surpassed Yoda at this point
3) Yoda - Greatest Lightsaber duelist in Jedi order's history behind Luke
4) Anakin - Maybe approaching or surpassing Yoda in an ideal state of mind
5) Plagueis - Skill of Banites improved over the many generations
6) Valkorion - not that skilled but has the power to augment himself to insane levels.
7) Jacen Solo - not really sure where to rank him, I'll just put him here.
8) Tenebrous / Krayt - I don't hold Krayt as high as many others, and I hold Tenebrous higher than most. 
9) Dooku / Mace - both seem to be around the same level, but Mace can do more with his Vaapad but that has circumstances.
10) Obi / Grievous - THE master of form 3, Grievous is also underrated.

Don't Know but clearly super good: Vol and Yaddle
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