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Nute_Chethray
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★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge Empty ★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge

on September 17th 2020, 2:51 pm
★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge Cc


Challenge 1: 

Argue why a Prequel-era jedi master of your choosing would beat TCW S5 Maul.

The following are excluded since they’d be too simple:
-          Mace
-       Yoda
-       Kenobi
-       Hero of Umbara
-       Anakin

But other than these you can pick whichever you want.

Time Limit is until September 24th

[hideedit]


Last edited by Nute_Chethray on September 20th 2020, 5:30 am; edited 2 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on September 17th 2020, 3:14 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
imma take a stab at it.

kit fisto comes to mind. 

first argument is his strength and speed being above maul's own strength and speed. fisto could fight a faster, stronger, more serious, and bloodlusted sidious than maul ever could. since maul is mostly a duelist, he would likely lose any duel against fisto, and if he tries to use the force against kit, i see no arguments that point towards the idea that he could overpower him enough to win (or enough to even match/counter fisto's greater stats. actually, im not even sure if maul is actually more powerful than a fisto that had been hand picked to fight sidious, whom they knew was more powerful than dooku)

do i need to post sources for shit?
Nute_Chethray
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on September 17th 2020, 3:24 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:imma take a stab at it.

kit fisto comes to mind. 

first argument is his strength and speed being above maul's own strength and speed. fisto could fight a faster, stronger, more serious, and bloodlusted sidious than maul ever could. since maul is mostly a duelist, he would likely lose any duel against fisto, and if he tries to use the force against kit, i see no arguments that point towards the idea that he could overpower him enough to win (or enough to even match/counter fisto's greater stats. actually, im not even sure if maul is actually more powerful than a fisto that had been hand picked to fight sidious, whom they knew was more powerful than dooku)

do i need to post sources for shit?
Sources are optional but giving them helps improve your case
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on September 17th 2020, 3:46 pm
@Nute_Chethray wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:imma take a stab at it.

kit fisto comes to mind. 

first argument is his strength and speed being above maul's own strength and speed. fisto could fight a faster, stronger, more serious, and bloodlusted sidious than maul ever could. since maul is mostly a duelist, he would likely lose any duel against fisto, and if he tries to use the force against kit, i see no arguments that point towards the idea that he could overpower him enough to win (or enough to even match/counter fisto's greater stats. actually, im not even sure if maul is actually more powerful than a fisto that had been hand picked to fight sidious, whom they knew was more powerful than dooku)

do i need to post sources for shit?
Sources are optional but giving them helps improve your case
k

guys, go watch sidious vs maul, then watch/read ROTS. good luck.
PlagTheDarth
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on September 17th 2020, 5:52 pm
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
Hello everyone, this is my first post here. 

I was originally going to try to go with Colemon Trebor for this, but I decided that Jedi Master Cin Drallig has more to work with.

My first piece of evidence towards this is Dooku's suggestion to General Grievous per Labyrinth of Evil, note that by this point, Grevious has previously stalemated Maul per Son of Dathomir.

Labyrinth of Evil (Credit to WolfMyth209) wrote:"'Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, yoda?'"


Clearly the intent here is that Cin Drallig is at least close to these 3 fellow Jedi Masters, likely being closer to Kenobi than the other 2.

I'm willing to bet that Revenge of the Sith will be brought up, so I will mention the fact that Knightfall Vader and Cin Drallig's duel has only a tiny glimpse of it shown. In comparison, the tie-in game for the film shows the duel to its full extent. It is furthermore important to remind of the fact that Knightfall Vader >/>> Zonakin, who broke through Darth Tyranus' defenses within 10-15 seconds Due to this, if Cin Drallig can hold his own against KFV for any meaningful amount of time, it can be considered a very impressive showing for him.

Thanks to his role of battlemaster and lead lightsaber instructor within the Order, Cin Drallig would be familiar with the double bladed lightsaber, dual wielding lightsabers, and the lightsaber form of Juyo. As a result, S5 Maul would be less likely to be capable of calling upon an advantage in the form of Cin Drallig being unfamiliar with his technique.

In conclusion, Cin Drallig is capable of giving a decent fight (in context to how powerful that someone is) to a direct superior to Maul in both dueling and force power, along with being cited as one of the most likely people to give Grevious difficulty, while a weaker version of himself is capable of stalemating a superior Maul. Maul generally focuses on martial and dueling techniques, which Cin Drallig should be one of the best members of the Order in understanding said techniques and thus countering them.
BigMouthPrick
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on September 18th 2020, 1:32 pm
Message reputation : 100% (7 votes)
In Legends there is one obvious answer here. In my mind this Jedi Master is a second-rate Mace Windu who is capable of defeating Maul due to him sharing a unique power with the former.

The other co-founder of Vaapad, a master of all forms of lightsaber combat; yes I am talking about Sora Bulq.

Right off the bat, Sora is considered to be the second most proficient user of Vaapad after Windu himself:

From the horse's mouth:  

★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge 7447891-screenshot_20200703-143955


Vaapad of course is the power that allowed Mace to defeat (or at least match if you're one of "those" people) Darth Sidious by re-directing the Sith's own energy against him. It is also only accessible to the most skilled Jedi, reaffirming that Sora is one of the Order's most skilled Jedi:

"'Only the most skilled members of the Order could master the Form VII discipline of combat, the aggressive nature of which trod dangerously close to the dark side. He also developed a new fighting style, elements of which he passed on to his more capable Padawans.''

-Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #008 (2014)


''Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat.

But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.

-ROTS Novel


Even on a baseline level without Vaapad, Sora is Mace Windu's chosen sparring partner, and they have stalemated in battle (if you count this for the discussion being he was a fallen jedi at the time).

Other jedi have compared Sora to Mace in regards to power:

"[...] I think he is every bit as powerful as Master Windu."
- Jedi: Mace Windu


Physically, Bulq's Weequay anatomy gives him an endurance level rivaling Maul's, as he has tanked even superficial lightsaber slashes to the chest (NOTE: This duel with Ventress was staged, and Sora voluntarily took the slash to deceive his jedi comrades):

★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge 6607285-bulq%27s%20endurance%201

""My wound is not serious — nor important."
- Jedi: Mace Windu

"n keeping with their rough appearance, Weequay have a unique resilience to injury from blunt trauma and burns. Their skeletal frames are more dense than those of most humanoid races, and their skin is more like a tough hide. A Weequay’s skin can withstand blaster fire and attacks from blunt weapons with little injury—though at close range a blaster will cause their skin to smolder. Average knife attacks are also ineffective, though a vibro-blade can puncture their skin. It is not resistant to lightsabers, however. This natural body armor makes them extremely durable fighters in close quarters and renders them very desirable as personal guards to organized crime figures and the like."

- The New Essential Guide to Alien Species


Maul does not have much of a physical edge over Sora. Unlike with Qui-Gon Jinn, Maul won't be able to wear him down into fatigue and sloppiness, and his physical strength will be rivaled. Any kicks or physical strikes from Maul can likely be tanked by Bulq. Even without accounting for Vaapad, Sora is comparable to a base-line Mace Windu in lightsaber combat. He is a weapon's master and combat instructor of the Jedi Temple with an array of tools to choose from in his metaphorical toolbox.

Once you account for his proficiency in Vaapad, Maul does not stand a chance. Windu's mastery of Vaapad allowed him to take down the most powerful Sith Lord in the Star Wars mythos. Maul is far from being the most powerful Sith, and his reliance on anger and raw-emotions in combat makes him a prime target for Vaapad's super-conducting loop. If Sidious with all his power and experience was helpless against Vaapad, Maul won't see what hit him.


TL;DR:

- Sora is a master of all lightsaber forms, an instructor comparable to Cin Drallig, and one of the most skilled duelists in the order

- Sora is the co-founder of Vaapad along with Mace, and his proficiency in the style is comparable

- Sora is comparable to Mace at a base-line combat level without Vaapad

- Vaapad is extremely powerful when utilized against dark-siders like Maul and Sidious

- Maul is significantly less powerful and skilled than Sidious who Windu already defeated with Vaapad; Bulq would have an easier time

- Sora's weequay anatomy means he is just as rugged as Maul, and can take damage without faltering
Meatpants
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on September 19th 2020, 12:00 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Jedi Master Dooku. Only Yoda was ever able to defeat him in lightsaber combat, and was a match for Mace Windu, who never defeated him. It's hard to see how S5 Maul has grown enough above his TPM self (who was challenged by Qui-Gon Jinn) that he could even contend with Master Dooku.
LadyKulvax
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on September 19th 2020, 2:11 am
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
Master Fay,

She's more powerful than three other of the 'greatest living Jedi' and is stated to be > Kenobi by the man himself:

"She was the strongest of us all, and for a brief moment I could feel how strong..."
- Obi-Wan Kenobi, Republic #53: Blast Radius


In fact, Kenobi feels like an apprentice again compared to her:

A well-respected Jedi in his own right, Obi-Wan was soon brought into contact with four of the greatest living Jedi. So experienced was this group that Kenobi felt like an apprentice again.
- Star Wars Fact File 102


She was so powerful in the Force that she didn't age and could've lived forever:

Her connection with the Force made her ageless.
- Star Wars Fact File 128


The Force kept her alive for many hundreds of years, Obi-Wan.
- Republic 53: Blast Radius


She outright wiped Ventress's memories for as long as she wanted to:

Master Fay used the Force to throw shards of glass at Asajj and then incapacitated her by temporarily wiping her memory.
- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


Asajj Ventress is outright more powerful than Darth Maul, Quinlan Vos and K'Kruhk:

Of all the foes faced by the Jedi, Dark Jedi Asajj Ventress was second only to Count Dooku himself.
-- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 55


Ventress required all of Mace Windu's skill to defeat her:

★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge Images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT9laP88lAjPxkJlyEk6BivDXZ1TE2xb-CY0Q&usqp=CAU

She tanked and could've pretty much instantly healed two lightsaber blades through her upper chest and gone on:

★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge 5833276-4079582-3596629141-40795
★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge 5833277-4079583-9984241383-40795
★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge 5833278-4079584-8446888775-40795

Even so, such a terrible wound might not have killed Master Fay, had she not devoted her last strength to saving Kenobi.
- Star Wars Fact File 128


She's got more than enough of the power and survivability to deal with Maul.


Last edited by LadyKulvax on September 19th 2020, 9:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
HellfireUnit
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on September 19th 2020, 5:37 am
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I was gonna write Fay, fuck
Master Azronger
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on September 19th 2020, 9:27 am
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@HellfireUnit You can still argue for her. Just make a better case.

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lorenzo.r.2nd
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on September 19th 2020, 2:26 pm
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@Meatpants wrote:Jedi Master Dooku. Only Yoda was ever able to defeat him in lightsaber combat, and was a match for Mace Windu, who never defeated him. It's hard to see how S5 Maul has grown enough above his TPM self (who was challenged by Qui-Gon Jinn) that he could even contend with Master Dooku.

i thought of doing him, but decided to go for fisto, so thanks for doing it in my stead lol
LadyKulvax
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on September 19th 2020, 8:42 pm
Updated my post.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on September 19th 2020, 9:26 pm
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i actually really like this tbh. shows how there are other strong jedi aside from the main obvious ones.
Nute_Chethray
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on September 22nd 2020, 12:30 pm
Lots of great responses so far, but I'd like to encourage those who haven't posted yet to do so, and to remind them that time limit is coming up ★ Canon Conundrums - First Challenge 228124001

Also I'm glad you like the idea Lorenzo
Nute_Chethray
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on September 24th 2020, 9:13 am
If anyone still plans to post an entry here and haven't yet, remember that the time limit passes by the end of the day
blackymarket
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on September 24th 2020, 9:51 am
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I'm going to be arguing as to why Depa Billaba would be able to defeat TCW S5 Maul

Depa Billaba's mastery of Vaapad was highly recognized, and Billaba is suggested to be possibly superior to Mace as of "Shatterpoint" with the ability, and even by ROTS was listed as a peer to Windu's mastery.

"Her voice echoed inside him: Nothing is more dangerous than a Jedi who's finally sane, but he said only- "She is a master of Vaapad." In the silence that followed, he studied the folds and wrinkles of his interlaced fingers, focusing his attention into his visual field to hold at bay dark dream-ghosts of Depa's blade flashing toward Jedi necks" —Star Wars: Shatterpoint

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from great swordbeings of the Jedi Order. He lack entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda could become."

—Star Wars: Revenge Of The Sith Novelization

This is particularly impressive considering that Mace Windu was able to fight evenly with ROTS Palpatine with Form VII Vaapad for a moment.

''Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat.

But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source."  —Star Wars: Revenge Of The Sith Novelization

Assuming that Sidious grew in power between ROTS and TCW, this means that Depa is a superior swordsfighter to Maul, though even if we discount that Sidious improved between ROTS and TCW, this doesn't help the case for Maul, whom at best desperately parried Palpatine's attacks before his majesty started ramping up his speed.

"Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor. Then Sidious seized his former apprentice with the Force, hurling him against the wall. Maul’s vision swam."
A rhyme crept into his head, a nagging sing-song bit of poetry." —Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy


Maul's physique also wouldn't drive the fight, considering Billaba's mental state and physical state in Shatterpoint, and yet was able to keep herself up.

"He says she has nightmares-that screams from her tent tear through the camp. He says no one ever sees her eat-that she's wasting away as though something inside is instead eating her. He says she has headaches that painkillers cannot touch, and sometimes cannot leave her tent for days at a time." —Star Wars: Shatterpoint

"Depa tottered to her feet. "Mace." Her voice trickled off into a whimper of pain; she lowered her head and clenched her jaw, pulling herself together by sheer willpower. "Mace, we can't let the militia kill those people. Your people-" —Star Wars: Shatterpoint



This is my first time constructing such an argument so hopefully its sufficient
Nute_Chethray
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on September 25th 2020, 12:54 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Many great posts (which made my life hard), but @LadyKulvax won this weeks challenge

Especially loved the posts from new users

Thanks to @lorenzo.r.2nd @Meatpants @PlagTheDarth @blackymarket @BigMouthPrick for participating, and I hope to see you participate in the next challenge as well

The next challenge will be released today.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on September 25th 2020, 1:44 pm
when u posting the next one?
Nute_Chethray
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on September 25th 2020, 6:29 pm
LadyKulvax
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on September 25th 2020, 8:25 pm
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@Nute_Chethray wrote:Many great posts (which made my life hard), but @LadyKulvax won this weeks challenge.

Thank you.
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