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Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 9:33 am
I just want to see how people see how Mustafar Kenobi compares to RotS Sidious, because I’ve seen some make some colourful claims about how good he is based on what is perceived as proximity to pre-suit Vader, who is as strong as Sidious according to George.

Round 1: Mustafar Kenobi vs pre-order 66 RotS Sidious.

Round 2: Mustafar Kenobi vs post-order 66 RotS Sidious.

Can he really contend with Sidious? If so, identify the victor and the extent of his victory in each round.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 9:41 am
Sidious annihilates him both times.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 10:00 am
"To fight this lord Sidious, strong enough you are not"
Don't really need more evidence than that, lmao.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 10:00 am
@Meatpants wrote:Sidious annihilates him both times.
Nice  RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi 2266747095
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 10:07 am
If Dooku can clap Kenobi in 1v2, Sidious blinks and he ceases to exist.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 10:19 am
Lightning secures Sheev's victory
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 10:37 am
Kenobi might be able to compete with Sheev from a pure augmentation standpoint based off his contention with Anakin (however like against his apprentice he has no path to victory) but lightning grants Sheev a totally one sided win.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 11:21 am
I mean, “Only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor.” Is clear enough.
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 1:05 pm
We have direct quotes from Yoda in the movie and Lucas from the commentary that Obi-Wan can't contend with Sidious.

His duel with Anakin on Mustafar doesn't change this.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 4:07 pm
Obi's complete mastery of Soresu and precog would allow him to block some strikes from Sid but he would still fall very quickly in a duel. In terms of force, Sid could probably just ragdoll. If Dooku was able to ragdoll Obi, whether that's from raw power or finding an opening, whatever, Sid could do the same.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 7:05 pm
Any pro Obi-Wan arguments?
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 7:57 pm
I can't think of any outside of people on YouTube saying that due to his Soresu Kenobi could stand up to Sidious in sabers. 

I mean it depends on how literally you take his fight with Anakin. I personally think Anakin was hindered and plan on making a video on it but for the people that think he wasn't hindered you could use Mustafar Anakin > Sidious to suggest Kenobi has a chance.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 11:31 pm
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:I can't think of any outside of people on YouTube saying that due to his Soresu Kenobi could stand up to Sidious in sabers. 

I mean it depends on how literally you take his fight with Anakin. I personally think Anakin was hindered and plan on making a video on it but for the people that think he wasn't hindered you could use Mustafar Anakin > Sidious to suggest Kenobi has a chance.

It seems you are referring to me. When I said Obi could block some strikes from Palpatine with his Soresu/precog I only meant an amount that was very small in number. Obi would likely be able to perceive Palpatine, which others had trouble doing; B-team, unamped Mace (with circumstances), tpm Maul. Obi at the very least would avoid getting blitzed but yeah, it's still a stomp. 

I also tend to agree more with the hindered argument. Obi was still likely more powerful in his M duel at some time period then he ever had been before. But I don't buy it when people entertain the idea that he fighting way way stronger than his normal state.

@TheNuisanceBird
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 25th 2020, 11:39 pm
Kenobi can compete for a short time (longer than Kit and the B-Team) but he’s not winning. Sidious is too fast, too powerful, too skilled, and far too ruthless for Kenobi to beat in his wildest dreams.
BigMouthPrick
BigMouthPrick

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 26th 2020, 12:32 am
Pretty clear Obi gets ragdolled in an all-out fight. Sabers only he'll likely hold his own for some time, but Sidious is too refined of a duelist to "mess-up" like Grievous; in other words there will be no opening for him to exploit. He will tire like he did against Anakin and die sooner than later.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Three
Level Three

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 26th 2020, 4:03 am
Sheev hits him with a confusion haze and kills him within seconds.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 9:17 am
@SnowxElf wrote:It seems you are referring to me. When I said Obi could block some strikes from Palpatine with his Soresu/precog I only meant an amount that was very small in number. Obi would likely be able to perceive Palpatine, which others had trouble doing; B-team, unamped Mace (with circumstances), tpm Maul. Obi at the very least would avoid getting blitzed but yeah, it's still a stomp. 

I also tend to agree more with the hindered argument. Obi was still likely more powerful in his M duel at some time period then he ever had been before. But I don't buy it when people entertain the idea that he fighting way way stronger than his normal state.

@TheNuisanceBird

Oh no that was just in response to Latham.

From what I remember the ROTS novel makes note of him being amped due to "enlightenment" before hand. Kenobi being amped and Anakin being hindered would explain the even TK contest they had in the control room.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 9:22 am
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:
Oh no that was just in response to Latham.

From what I remember the ROTS novel makes note of him being amped due to "enlightenment" before hand. Kenobi being amped and Anakin being hindered would explain the even TK contest they had in the control room.

The RotS screenplay sums this up:

"OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.

Both combatants are blasted backward onto the control panels." Revenge of the Sith Script.

If you look at it from the screenplay's perspective, Obi-Wan was the aggressor, Anakin was just defending by blocking Obi-Wan in that telekinetic contest. Obi-Wan kept pushing and Anakin kept defending until there was too much Force energy for both of them to contain, overloading their Force defenses, hence why they are both sent flying. Kenobi didn't exhibit equal strength in the Force (that intepretation flies in the face of Gillard's statement that Anakin is "enormously" more powerful than Obi-Wan), he just kept exerting offensive TK whilst Anakin kept exerting a Force defense until they couldn't contain each other's power in close quarters.


Last edited by Latham2000 on July 27th 2020, 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 11:54 am
@Latham2000 wrote:
"OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.

Both combatants are blasted backward onto the control panels." Revenge of the Sith Script.

If you look at it from the screenplay's perspective, Obi-Wan was the aggressor, Anakin was just defending by blocking Obi-Wan in that telekinetic contest. Obi-Wan kept pushing and Anakin kept defending until there was too much Force energy for both of them to contain, overloading their Force defenses, hence why they are both sent flying. Kenobi didn't exhibit equal strength in the Force (that intepretation flies in the face of Gillard's statement that Anakin is "enormously" more powerful than Obi-Wan", he just kept exerting offensive TK whilst Anakin kept exerting a Force defense until they couldn't contained each other's power in close quarters.

Sure the screen play has this but the novel has Kenobi deflecting TK blasts from an aggressive Anakin and the film has them resort to the Force at the same time which is what I was referring to.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 2:48 pm
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:
@Latham2000 wrote:
"OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.

Both combatants are blasted backward onto the control panels." Revenge of the Sith Script.

If you look at it from the screenplay's perspective, Obi-Wan was the aggressor, Anakin was just defending by blocking Obi-Wan in that telekinetic contest. Obi-Wan kept pushing and Anakin kept defending until there was too much Force energy for both of them to contain, overloading their Force defenses, hence why they are both sent flying. Kenobi didn't exhibit equal strength in the Force (that intepretation flies in the face of Gillard's statement that Anakin is "enormously" more powerful than Obi-Wan", he just kept exerting offensive TK whilst Anakin kept exerting a Force defense until they couldn't contained each other's power in close quarters.

Sure the screen play has this but the novel has Kenobi deflecting TK blasts from an aggressive Anakin and the film has them resort to the Force at the same time which is what I was referring to.

Kenobi deflecting Force blasts from an aggressive Anakin is good but the novel doesn't specify how much effort Anakin put in his Force blasts and how much effort Kenobi put on summoning a Force barrier to deflect those Force blasts, what could easily be the case is that Kenobi exerted more of a Force defense than Anakin exerted offensive Force blasts, which makes sense in the light of Gillard's statement that the gap between Anakin as a 9 and Obi-Wan as an 8 is "enormous" in RotS DVD commentary.


Last edited by Latham2000 on July 27th 2020, 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 3:51 pm
Plus, we know Sidious can't directly breach Maul's Force Barrier - despite the massive gap between them - so Kenobi doing so against Anakin isn't indicative of closeness or parity.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 8:44 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:Kenobi deflecting Force blasts from an aggressive Anakin is good but the novel doesn't specify how much effort Anakin put in his Force blasts and how much effort Kenobi put on summoning a Force barrier to deflect those Force blasts, what could easily be the case is that Kenobi exerted more of a Force defense than Anakin exerted offensive Force blasts, which makes sense in the light of Gillard's statement that the gap between Anakin as a 9 and Obi-Wan as an 8 is "enormous" in RotS DVD commentary.

Regardless of whether Anakin's hindered or not I'd still say that due to the overall portrayal of the fight it'd make sense that Anakin is legitimately trying to kill Obi-Wan and go all out. The behind the scenes comments from Hayden have detailed that Mustafar Vader's fighting style is a lot more aggressive than Anakin's which could be explained by Anakin's new affiliation with the dark side but either way it comes off as him trying to kill Obi-Wan.

Even if we go by the novel which is where the deflection comes from Anakin's still pretty pissed. Granted he does send Kenobi back with Force waves at least twice and starts bending his bones that where shown earlier in the book to be stronger than the IH hull but I don't see any reason that Anakin would be holding back. 

Well exactly, given the enormous difference between them it'd make sense that Obi-Wan is amped by enlightenment as per the novel (from what I remember last time I checked) and Anakin to be hindered.

Unrelated but I was typing this with my parrot on my shoulder and he liked the sound of the keyboard and after headbanging to get my attention started singing. Now he won't shut up.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 8:48 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:Plus, we know Sidious can't directly breach Maul's Force Barrier - despite the massive gap between them - so Kenobi doing so against Anakin isn't indicative of closeness or parity.

Well in canon the tiers seem to be compressed overall where it does seem like standard numbers 1-100 rather than the richter scale. 

Especially in Filoni medium where you have Maul getting knocked down by a dog and Anakin blitzed by a Sped monkey so given the PIS and plot armor in fights the standard for top tier isn't very high lol 

Also translates not so great into Rebels where a distracted but far superior Vader gets floored by Kanan and Ezra.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
Level One
Level One

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 9:23 pm
If Sheev uses lightning it's over. If he keeps to sabers and TK Kenobi can make it last a good long while, maybe pull a win with Force Light.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

on July 27th 2020, 10:17 pm
Lightning securing Sheev's victory is absurd. Sheev doesn't need lightning or sabers to beat Kenobi. He is infinitely faster, much more stronger and his monstrous TK alone guarantees the victory. Kenobi has 0 chance.
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RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi Empty Re: RotS Sidious vs Mustafar Kenobi

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