ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

I’d actually disagree with that last part, I don’t think there’s much parity between Yoda and Mace in regards to base/conventional abilities. I never got the impression from sources like Shatterpoint and Dark Rendezvous that Mace was incredibly gifted in a base sense.

Lmao at Mace stomping. One of the most cancerous positions you could hold.

The Dragon of Zakuul wrote:Lmao at Mace stomping. One of the most cancerous positions you could hold.

Look, I know that you have a hard on for Dooku but the fact is that an inferior version of Anakin( that was still a level 8) beat Dooku in 12 seconds

Mace is a bonafide level 9, someone that can match Sidious in combat, and for sure, Sidious is going to stomp Dooku. There is nothing cancerous about this at all, in fact, it is infinitely more reasonable than some crap you are undoubtedly going to give about Dooku being "reasonably close" to Sidious and I seriously am waiting for it because I really want a laugh

Yoda says Mace and Dooku are equals during 19BBY...

Am I to believe that Yoda is somehow hilariously wrong in his assessment so much so that there's in actuality a stomp tier gap between them?

Speaking of cancerous positions this is going to be forever etched in memory

"After him finding out about Sidious he probably beats Dooku"

LOTL wrote:Speaking of cancerous positions this is going to be forever etched in memory

"After him finding out about Sidious he probably beats Dooku"

My opinion on that fight depends entirely on whether I view Mace's "amp" (for lack of a better word) against Sidious as a permanent boost or something that can only be applied against Sidious himself. Regardless you're dodging the point.

I can accept people thinking Windu wins with mid-high difficulty but saying he stomps gave me a good laugh.

The Dragon of Zakuul wrote:YDR says Mace and Dooku are equals...

Am I to believe that Yoda is somehow hilariously wrong in his assessment so much so that there's in actuality a stomp tier gap between them?

Yoda's judgement of Dooku is as follows: He still wants to believe that Dooku can be turned to the light and to such an extent that he wants to bring him back into the Jedi Order despite the Count being a genocidal sociopath. If Yoda is really that deluded regarding Dooku, I have no doubt that he would hype up the abilities of his former padawan too for some misplaced pride. By the way, speaking of Yoda's judgement, he also considered Jinn to be as powerful in the force as any Jedi Master they had known

I look forward to your concession, or "YDR says Mace and Jinn are equals...

Am I to believe that Yoda is somehow hilariously wrong in his assessment so much so that there's in actuality a stomp tier gap between them?"

Speaking of the quote itself, this is Yoda, it is just his opinion, not an objective narration, and so it is not binding. At all. Certainly not compared to statements by Lucas

Furthermore, Vaapad is dependent on the inner darkness of the force user. Mace becomes more powerful by that. In ROTS Obi Wan notes that the darkness inside Mace had increased "much more" than before meaning a huge surge in his power would immediately follow by the dynamics of Vaapad. Obi Wan had seen Mace after Y:DR in Obsession so yeah, it is entirely possible that even if Mace is equal to Dooku in Y:DR, he still far surpasses him come the end of the war

The Dragon of Zakuul wrote:I can accept people thinking Windu wins with mid-high difficulty but saying he stomps gave me a good laugh.

No offense, because you are great regarding Galen but your Dooku wank is nothing but high class comedy.

Will respond tomorrow.

LOTL wrote:

The Dragon of Zakuul wrote:YDR says Mace and Dooku are equals...

Am I to believe that Yoda is somehow hilariously wrong in his assessment so much so that there's in actuality a stomp tier gap between them?

Yoda's judgement of Dooku is as follows: He still wants to believe that Dooku can be turned to the light and to such an extent that he wants to bring him back into the Jedi Order despite the Count being a genocidal sociopath. If Yoda is really that deluded regarding Dooku, I have no doubt that he would hype up the abilities of his former padawan too for some misplaced pride. By the way, speaking of Yoda's judgement, he also considered Jinn to be as powerful in the force as any Jedi Master they had known

I look forward to your concession, or "YDR says Mace and Jinn are equals...

Am I to believe that Yoda is somehow hilariously wrong in his assessment so much so that there's in actuality a stomp tier gap between them?"

Speaking of the quote itself, this is Yoda, it is just his opinion, not an objective narration, and so it is not binding. At all. Certainly not compared to statements by Lucas

Furthermore, Vaapad is dependent on the inner darkness of the force user. Mace becomes more powerful by that. In ROTS Obi Wan notes that the darkness inside Mace had increased "much more" than before meaning a huge surge in his power would immediately follow by the dynamics of Vaapad. Obi Wan had seen Mace after Y:DR in Obsession so yeah, it is entirely possible that even if Mace is equal to Dooku in Y:DR, he still far surpasses him come the end of the war

Your description of vaapad seems to be incomplete. If it were only drawing on the user's inner emotions and darkness then it would be no different from juyo which does the same. What separates vaapad from juyo is its ability to redirect and channel the dark power and emotions of your opponent as well. The latter ability seems to only allow the user to stalemate a superior foe in a 1v1 confrontation. So Mace using Vaapad against Dooku would only allow him to match Dooku in power and stalemate. If Mace is going to win he needs to be more powerful than Dooku without Vaapad. Which is what I'm questioning.

Mace mid diff

IMO this is a real close match, I'd say Dooku wins 5.1/10

Prime Mace wins, mid diff.

@LOTL @The Dragon of Zakuul Keep it civil. No condescension, calling other people's opinions' cancerous, etc.

Mace does stomp, though.

Windu solidly though not easily.

My only remark was that his comment "Mace stomps" gave me a laugh. I don't recall anything in the rules that permits me from doing this. Regardless I apologise.

I feel Dooku's portrayal in relation to his underlings like Grievous and Ventress paints him in a more favorable light than Mace's portrayals in relation to them though I think in general they're meant to be viewed as equals. I'd personally side with Dooku for the fact that during the invasion of Coruscant we have Grievous, someone who Dooku is portrayed to be solidly above around the same time frame, seems to match if not outright have the advantage against Windu despite the text nothing that he is hindered to a greater degree than his opponent. While this isn't definitive proof of Dooku's superiority, this along with other comparisons such as Yoda noting in YDR that Mace MAY be the only one capable of matching Dooku on even ground ( implying that he is unsure if Mace even is capable of matching him ) and Dooku's casual domination of Ventress late into the Clone Wars vs Mace's inability to do the same earlier during the Clone Wars would suggest to me that, outside of Mace's amped state in RotS, Dooku is meant to be the superior of the two. While we have earlier quotes that suggest Mace's superiority, these are all prior to quotes stating that Dooku had grown in power and skill.

@LOTL

Yoda's judgement of Dooku is as follows: He still wants to believe that Dooku can be turned to the light and to such an extent that he wants to bring him back into the Jedi Order despite the Count being a genocidal sociopath.

The fact that Yoda wants to see the good in Dooku doesn't mean he isn't able to objectively judge his combative prowess especially since he's seen his limitations in AOTC.

If Yoda is really that deluded regarding Dooku, I have no doubt that he would hype up the abilities of his former padawan too for some misplaced pride.

Yoda actually displayed disappointment with Dooku in AOTC and claimed he had learned absolutely nothing which doesn't lend credence to the idea that he'd be biased towards Dooku regarding his combat prowess. He's in general disappointed with his former padawan regarding the choices he's made but naturally wants to help him. You're literally trying to assert that Yoda is an unreliable narrator based on the fact that he wants to see the good in his former padawan but the question is which master wouldn't?

You're also essentially arguing that Yoda's so hilariously off the mark that Mace can in actuality stomp Dooku which even accounting for bias I don't see as plausible.

By the way, speaking of Yoda's judgement, he also considered Jinn to be as powerful in the force as any Jedi Master they had known

I look forward to your concession, or "YDR says Mace and Jinn are equals...

Next time provide a source and you might get a concession. Until then this is an unsubstantiated claim.

Am I to believe that Yoda is somehow hilariously wrong in his assessment so much so that there's in actuality a stomp tier gap between them?"

Speaking of the quote itself, this is Yoda, it is just his opinion, not an objective narration, and so it is not binding. At all. Certainly not compared to statements by Lucas

And where exactly does Lucas state there's a hilarious disparity between Mace and Dooku? Regardless, though the accolade is an opinion, it's from a 900-year-old wizened Jedi Master who has experienced the Count's full abilities first hand. Funnily enough, I favour it over a Uni student's subjective interpretation of the lore.

Furthermore, Vaapad is dependent on the inner darkness of the force user. Mace becomes more powerful by that. In ROTS Obi Wan notes that the darkness inside Mace had increased "much more" than before meaning a huge surge in his power would immediately follow by the dynamics of Vaapad. Obi Wan had seen Mace after Y:DR in Obsession so yeah, it is entirely possible that even if Mace is equal to Dooku in Y:DR, he still far surpasses him come the end of the war

The full quote, please for your claim regarding Kenobi and Windu? Regardless I very much doubt he increased to the point where he can stomp Dooku given that he had a few months to grow at most. At best you can say he's significantly better but I still don't see a stomp tier gap as plausible.

@The Dragon of Zakuul

1. Alright, I watched the episode again and yes Dooku beat her easily. Point conceded.

2. The only source that said he needed all his skill is a secondary in-universe Fact-File anyways. It doesn't inform the primary comic, where the visual context is clear: Mace is beating her without any visible strain while casually stating his superiority and giving her an opportunity to surrender, whereas she is clearly desperate and uncharacteristically agrees openly.

3. Alright, I'll admit I did shift goalposts there, by comparing different mediums. That said upon rereading the fight on the mag-lev I don't see any real disparity. Mace beat Grievous in little over a single exchange, as per the RotS SN, and in the time it took for Fisto to stomp the bodyguards. The whole fight was actually shorter than the OCW spar.

As for Grievous being a legitimate threat to Mace? Not in the book. Grievous's strength and speed were astonishing to Mace ... and that's it. Same would apply to Dooku or any human for that matter, for which species can't move remotely as fast as his cybernetics, paraphrasing the RotS SN.

Grievous himself didn't seem to think the fight was particularly close and was left humbled by Mace's prowess with a blade:

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade and now he understood. His literal "misstep" shamed him and he was grateful his two magnaguards had not survived to bear witness to it.

And was of the opinion that Kit and Mace alone would be enough to overcome him and six of his elite had they been present in the bunker where he took the chancellor:

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:
Perhaps if the chancellor had been intelligent enough to surround himself with real Jedi - Jedi of the caliber of Windu and that tentacle-headed Kit Fisto - the engagement would have gone differently.

Also the unpredictability Grievous is weak to isn't the method based unpredictability from Vaapad or Juyo the latter of which he's mastered. It's the kind that isn't grounded in any particular fighting style. Vaapad is seemingly random but it follows a specific fight pattern Grievous's programing can analyze. What the computers can't answer for is a sudden break from combat form, such as when Windu cut a hole in the roof and basically beat him without any regards to winning elegantly. Dooku likened it to a cantina brawler beating a professional athlete without a thought to elegance or winning gracefully because the combat artist is geared to countering combos and fight patterns. Or a Dejarik player who spends too much time memorizing classical openings and countermoves and losing to inexperienced players who don't have any knowledge of the traditional methods.

In conclusion, Ventress is small fry to Mace and Grievous isn't pressing Mace. Dooku and Mace's performances against the same opponents remain comparable as was my original point.

@Kilius Will respond tomorrow.

Kilius wrote:The only source that said he needed all his skill is a secondary in-universe Fact-File anyways. It doesn't inform the primary comic, where the visual context is clear: Mace is beating her without any visible strain

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't exactly say that the comic portrays him "defeating her without any visual strain" considering scans like this:

Kilius wrote:while casually stating his superiority and giving her an opportunity to surrender, whereas she is clearly desperate and uncharacteristically agrees openly.

A couple things must be noted here:

1. This was Ventress's first appearance in Star Wars meaning that she cannot be accurately described to be behaving "uncharacteristically" when she had never had the chance to demonstrated characteristics prior to her fight with Mace.

2. While Ventress has appeared in material that chronologically occurred prior to her fight with Mace, nothing from that material would suggest it's uncharacteristic of her to admit inferiority when faced with a superior opponent. While her first appearance in the miniseries does depict her as prideful and arrogant, she's left humbled by her defeat by Dooku and likely to an even greater degree by her defeat by Anakin  who, to her, would've simply been a random Jedi padawan.  

3. While Mace notes his superiority and Ventress agrees that he is, he indicates that he would be unable to take her alive which is why he asks for her surrender.



Given his stated preference is to keep her alive for questioning, you think he would have simply outright incapacitated her if he was capable of such a feat. Given that he didn't, I can only assume he was not. On the flipside, we have Dooku outright incapacitating a far more powerful Ventress in Y:DR with seemingly casual ease:

"Though often thwarted by the Jedi, there was no doubt that Asajj Ventress was not only a powerful dark side Force user, but that she was growing in power all the time." - Star Wars Fact File 67.

-

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly. Dooku looked around. "Or what?" Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.

You might make the argument that Mace wouldn't be willing to use such methods on her, but such suggestions ring hollow when you consider he was willing to crush Grievous's organs simply to make his retrieval of the Chancellor easier.

Kilius wrote:Alright, I'll admit I did shift goalposts there, by comparing different mediums. That said upon rereading the fight on the mag-lev I don't see any real disparity. Mace beat Grievous in little over a single exchange, as per the RotS SN, and in the time it took for Fisto to stomp the bodyguards. The whole fight was actually shorter than the OCW spar.

1. Grievous was noted to be hindered to a greater degree than Windu in their fight:

"Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long." - Labyrinth of Evil.

It should be noted that restricted mobility was noted to be one of the reasons ( along with his own familiarity ) Obi Wan able to overcome Grievous:

Jedi and cyborg fought briefly along a catwalk suspended over the lower levels of the hangar. By limiting Grievous' movement to the catwalk, Obi-Wan was able to neutralize the General's usually more ranging fighting style. Kenobi kept the fight close to the cyborg and, used to Grievous' moves now after so many encounters, it wasn't long before a clawed mechanical hand and the lightsaber it had once held clattered down onto the deck." - The Official Star Wars Fact File Relaunched #39.

2. Mace never "beat" Grievous. He managed to land a Force push on him by taking advantage of Grievous living and droid brain not always being in sync. Prior to this, Mace was actually giving ground to Grievous:

Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance." - Labyrinth of Evil.

And to clarify, Mace lost interest in prolonging the contest and ended the duel in this manner only AFTER Grievous had successfully analyzed Vaapad. Coincidentally, this is also when the description of their fight switches from Grievous and Mace simply trading blows to Grievous actively advancing on him. This would seem to indicate that once Grievous had successfully analyzed Vaapad it gave him the advantage over Mace and that Mace was less confident in his ability to win such a duel. Why else would he attempt to end the duel in a manner that might allow Grievous to escape when the text had just noted that Fisto had finished off his own magnaguard opponents and was coming to aid him?

"As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad

-

Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance." - Labyrinth of Evil.

3. What is there to suggest that the fight between Mace and Grievous was shorter then the fight between Dooku and Grievous in OCW? Considering the text goes out of its way to state that Mace and Grievous clashed "again and again" and that he had enough time to analyze Windu's form, I would say the opposite was implied.

"Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

-

Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. - Labyrinth of Evil.

Kilius wrote:Grievous himself didn't seem to think the fight was particularly close and was left humbled by Mace's prowess with a blade:

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade and now he understood. His literal "misstep" shamed him and he was grateful his two magnaguards had not survived to bear witness to it.

Nowhere in the above quote does Grievous suggest Mace was superior to him. He notes that Mace is indeed skillful and that HIS mistake is what shamed him.

Kilius wrote:And was of the opinion that Kit and Mace alone would be enough to overcome him and six of his elite had they been present in the bunker where he took the chancellor:

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:
Perhaps if the chancellor had been intelligent enough to surround himself with real Jedi - Jedi of the caliber of Windu and that tentacle-headed Kit Fisto - the engagement would have gone differently.

Grievous notes that if the chancellor had SURROUNDED himself with Jedi on Windu and Fisto's caliber the kidnapping would have failed. Not that Windu and Fisto alone would have been capable of preventing it.

@Syndiciate Thanks for responding so, I don't have to.

@Syndiciate

1. Fair points on arrogance and strain in the first scan.

Mace is still portrayed as her clear and obvious superior though.

Dooku Force choked her when she wasn't expecting an attack, much like Sidious Force choking Dooku across the galaxy when his equal in Yoda can't simply wave his hand and Force incapacitate Dooku when it's perfectly within his morals such as when he tooled Ventress.

Dooku's other fights with Ventress aren't much different from Mace. My main point remains.

2.

Mace never "beat" Grievous. He managed to land a Force push on him by taking advantage of Grievous living and droid brain not always being in sync. Prior to this, Mace was actually giving ground to Grievous:

A legitiment shortcoming of Grievous. It proves Mace is the superior warrior who has truly mastered the art where's Grievous is merely a machine enslaved to form, as Dooku mussed. One minor break from standard combat methods and Grievous is helpless.

Dooku gave ground the entire time in the OCW spar if giving ground is actually indicative of Grievous holding an advantage over Mace who "never seemed to be in once place for long" and not simply a strategy in luring Grievous into his trap.


The environment only hindered his normal ability to make quick advances and sudden retreats. His jar kai and the dexterity of his upper body as demonstrated on Hypori when all five Jedi tried to flank him, is sufficient to protect his flanks from omnidirectional attacks. His lightsaber technique isn't significantly hindered. He fights stationery in plenty of sources, this isn't a crippling hindrance, just an inconvenience, nor does it negate the clear disparity between the two. If Grievous had access to more mobility his tactics wouldn't change all that much based on his other showings.

And to clarify, Mace lost interest in prolonging the contest and ended the duel in this manner only AFTER Grievous had successfully analyzed Vaapad. Coincidentally, this is also when the description of their fight switches from Grievous and Mace simply trading blows to Grievous actively advancing on him. This would seem to indicate that once Grievous had successfully analyzed Vaapad it gave him the advantage over Mace and that Mace was less confident in his ability to win such a duel. Why else would he attempt to end the duel in a manner that might allow Grievous to escape when the text had just noted that Fisto had finished off his own magnaguard opponents and was coming to aid him?

Mace never had "interest" in prolonging the contest in the first place. He's not going to put civilian lives in jeopardy just to prove his dueling skills against the cyborg when a far more efficient method is available.

Mace didn't know about the hijacked Gunship, which he thought was on his side. Even Grievous acknowledged he barely survived the fall. Without the benefit of hindsight it's not likely Mace would have guessed Grievous would escape after taking a thousand-meter plunge into the canyon base.

Considering the text goes out of its way to state that Mace and Grievous clashed "again and again" and that he had enough time to analyze Windu's form, I would say the opposite was implied.

It wasn't much more than a single exchange:

RotS SN wrote:Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

Brief by Grievous's recollection:

He had been forced to improvise when Palpatine's protectors had opted to follow an alternate route to the bunker, and he had enjoyed chasing the mag-lev - - if not the brief duel on the roof of the train car.

Whereas we cut to the OCW spar when it was already in progress and it goes on for about 30 seconds. Mind you Dooku didn't actually "beat" Grievous; he still had one saber and access to more on his hip. It was cut short. Dooku is obviously portrayed as superior but my main point is that Mace's performance isn't inferior to Dooku's. Both are clearly obviously superior to Grievous. Which goes back to my main point in Dooku and Mace's performances against the same opponents being comparable, which goes hand in hand with the sources pegging them as equals.

Nowhere in the above quote does Grievous suggest Mace was superior to him. He notes that Mace is indeed skillful and that HIS mistake is what shamed him.

It sure as hell implies it. And no he notes Tyranus had warned him of Mace's prowess with a blade. If Mace's prowess with a blade was of no consequence to his loss then there would be no point in the novel bringing it up, especially if the novel was trying to insinuate, as you suggest, that Grievous was holding an advantage before Mace slashed the roof.



Your other points are fair, but the main thrust of my arguments remain. Dooku and Mace are comparable in their performances against the same opponents.

Note that Mace explicitly acknowledges it would have been a prolonged engagement and chose to BFR Grievous rather than finish him off, implying that the two were well matched. This coupled with the fact that Grievous met him blow for blow despite having to adapt to Windu's unpredictable style and environmental disadvantages and I think it's fairly obvious who's performance was superior out of the two.