Search found 1 match for 39

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

Kilius wrote:The only source that said he needed all his skill is a secondary in-universe Fact-File anyways. It doesn't inform the primary comic, where the visual context is clear: Mace is beating her without any visible strain

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't exactly say that the comic portrays him "defeating her without any visual strain" considering scans like this:

Kilius wrote:while casually stating his superiority and giving her an opportunity to surrender, whereas she is clearly desperate and uncharacteristically agrees openly.

A couple things must be noted here:

1. This was Ventress's first appearance in Star Wars meaning that she cannot be accurately described to be behaving "uncharacteristically" when she had never had the chance to demonstrated characteristics prior to her fight with Mace.

2. While Ventress has appeared in material that chronologically occurred prior to her fight with Mace, nothing from that material would suggest it's uncharacteristic of her to admit inferiority when faced with a superior opponent. While her first appearance in the miniseries does depict her as prideful and arrogant, she's left humbled by her defeat by Dooku and likely to an even greater degree by her defeat by Anakin  who, to her, would've simply been a random Jedi padawan.  

3. While Mace notes his superiority and Ventress agrees that he is, he indicates that he would be unable to take her alive which is why he asks for her surrender.



Given his stated preference is to keep her alive for questioning, you think he would have simply outright incapacitated her if he was capable of such a feat. Given that he didn't, I can only assume he was not. On the flipside, we have Dooku outright incapacitating a far more powerful Ventress in Y:DR with seemingly casual ease:

"Though often thwarted by the Jedi, there was no doubt that Asajj Ventress was not only a powerful dark side Force user, but that she was growing in power all the time." - Star Wars Fact File 67.

-

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly. Dooku looked around. "Or what?" Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.

You might make the argument that Mace wouldn't be willing to use such methods on her, but such suggestions ring hollow when you consider he was willing to crush Grievous's organs simply to make his retrieval of the Chancellor easier.

Kilius wrote:Alright, I'll admit I did shift goalposts there, by comparing different mediums. That said upon rereading the fight on the mag-lev I don't see any real disparity. Mace beat Grievous in little over a single exchange, as per the RotS SN, and in the time it took for Fisto to stomp the bodyguards. The whole fight was actually shorter than the OCW spar.

1. Grievous was noted to be hindered to a greater degree than Windu in their fight:

"Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long." - Labyrinth of Evil.

It should be noted that restricted mobility was noted to be one of the reasons ( along with his own familiarity ) Obi Wan able to overcome Grievous:

Jedi and cyborg fought briefly along a catwalk suspended over the lower levels of the hangar. By limiting Grievous' movement to the catwalk, Obi-Wan was able to neutralize the General's usually more ranging fighting style. Kenobi kept the fight close to the cyborg and, used to Grievous' moves now after so many encounters, it wasn't long before a clawed mechanical hand and the lightsaber it had once held clattered down onto the deck." - The Official Star Wars Fact File Relaunched #39.

2. Mace never "beat" Grievous. He managed to land a Force push on him by taking advantage of Grievous living and droid brain not always being in sync. Prior to this, Mace was actually giving ground to Grievous:

Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance." - Labyrinth of Evil.

And to clarify, Mace lost interest in prolonging the contest and ended the duel in this manner only AFTER Grievous had successfully analyzed Vaapad. Coincidentally, this is also when the description of their fight switches from Grievous and Mace simply trading blows to Grievous actively advancing on him. This would seem to indicate that once Grievous had successfully analyzed Vaapad it gave him the advantage over Mace and that Mace was less confident in his ability to win such a duel. Why else would he attempt to end the duel in a manner that might allow Grievous to escape when the text had just noted that Fisto had finished off his own magnaguard opponents and was coming to aid him?

"As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad

-

Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance." - Labyrinth of Evil.

3. What is there to suggest that the fight between Mace and Grievous was shorter then the fight between Dooku and Grievous in OCW? Considering the text goes out of its way to state that Mace and Grievous clashed "again and again" and that he had enough time to analyze Windu's form, I would say the opposite was implied.

"Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

-

Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. - Labyrinth of Evil.

Kilius wrote:Grievous himself didn't seem to think the fight was particularly close and was left humbled by Mace's prowess with a blade:

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade and now he understood. His literal "misstep" shamed him and he was grateful his two magnaguards had not survived to bear witness to it.

Nowhere in the above quote does Grievous suggest Mace was superior to him. He notes that Mace is indeed skillful and that HIS mistake is what shamed him.

Kilius wrote:And was of the opinion that Kit and Mace alone would be enough to overcome him and six of his elite had they been present in the bunker where he took the chancellor:

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:
Perhaps if the chancellor had been intelligent enough to surround himself with real Jedi - Jedi of the caliber of Windu and that tentacle-headed Kit Fisto - the engagement would have gone differently.

Grievous notes that if the chancellor had SURROUNDED himself with Jedi on Windu and Fisto's caliber the kidnapping would have failed. Not that Windu and Fisto alone would have been capable of preventing it.