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DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 5th 2020, 1:01 pm
@UnquantifiableCharacter77: There's no indication "the most powerful of the Sith Lords" is in reference to political/military power rather than Force power. The fact they write "forces of Darth Caedus" doesn't comment on the nature of the description about Caedus. Consider the quote, "The heroes fought the forces of Ulic-Qel Droma -- the most powerful Jedi of his generation." I wouldn't take that to mean most politically/militarily powerful Jedi, would you? Political power supremacy quote arguments open a can of worms that potentially delegitimize the vast majority of them, hence why we don't use them unless its plainly apparent. In this case, it's not at all. 

(Previous responses on last page. The quote is canon.)


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on April 5th 2020, 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 5th 2020, 1:05 pm
I want to know the TOR brigade policy on supremacy quotes. They seem to accept this but reject statements such as KFV>previous sith or Maul > previous sith. Please enlighten me.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 5th 2020, 1:06 pm
@DarthSkywalker0: Maul > previous Sith is in-universe limited, unaware of/wrong about EU material. I'm unaware of KFV > previous Sith, but I hold that position anyway. It is also my conviction, based on Chee's sentiments, that OOU quotes are generally bound by OOU chronology and not IU chronology, so I agree with Cilghal that this quote should only apply to Krayt unless Vol is referenced somewhere else as of publication (which he very well may be; we would have to look into that).
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

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on April 5th 2020, 1:15 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@DarthSkywalker0: Maul > previous Sith is in-universe limited, unaware of/wrong about EU material. I'm unaware of KFV > previous Sith, but I hold that position anyway. It is also my conviction, based on Chee's sentiments, that OOU quotes are generally bound by OOU chronology and not IU chronology, so I agree with Cilghal that this quote should only apply to Krayt unless Vol is referenced somewhere else (which he very well may be, we would have to look into that).

I mean if we are relying on Chee here, he has explicitly rejected supremacy quotes in the past. I thought there was some KF Vader quote putting him above Valk, could be wrong on that one. I am also fairly you certain you have told me on multiple occasions that after seeing the quotes discovered by Jake you no longer care about supremacy quotes, why the change in thinking?
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 5th 2020, 3:08 pm
Lmao.


Tpm Maul > all Sith is "limited."

Excuses excuses
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
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Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 5th 2020, 3:37 pm
@DarthAnt66 Seems fair.
Nute_Chethray
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on April 5th 2020, 6:06 pm
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:I want to know the TOR brigade policy on supremacy quotes. They seem to accept this but reject statements such as KFV>previous sith or Maul > previous sith. Please enlighten me.
Not sure I count as part of any TOR brigade but I am the opinion that supremacy quotes are lame and don't want to use them. Though in debates I can of course not just ignore them, I just find them to strip away lots of the possible enjoyment of debating as a whole, especially cross-era ones
Ziggy
Ziggy

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on April 5th 2020, 6:28 pm
"The fact they write "forces of Darth Caedus" doesn't comment on the nature of the description about Caedus. Consider the quote, "The heroes fought the forces of Ulic-Qel Droma -- the most powerful Jedi of his generation." I wouldn't take that to mean most politically/militarily powerful Jedi, would you?"



No.  I wouldn't take it to mean that Ulic was the most politically powerful Jedi. 

The imperative for any sole Jedi to rule the Galaxy with an army, resources, political standing and force might usually isn't the raison d'être, unlike for most Sith.  And with Caedus being most sith, the ultimate goal bieng to rule.  To acquire power both in personal might and influence over others.  The latter being sometimes even more important than the former.  The quote in question doesn't have to isolate one facet on its own.  I think that considering the context - a war with Caedus.  One might look at the sum of power at his disposal and not just those limited to his wizardry.  


"Political power supremacy quote arguments potentially delegitimize the vast majority of them"


Is this a problem?

What changes for most people?
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
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Level Three

Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 5th 2020, 10:48 pm
Ziggy. I understand that your rhetoric is your strongest asset and you leverage that constantly, but holistically (something you appeal to quite frequently) most of the "political power" quotes are clearly meant to depict force power. Anyone can weasel and squirm their way out of things with semantics, but there comes a time where we should just take things at face value or look to the lore itself to circumvent them and argue against it with different avenues. It comes down to being a squirming bias little moron forcing things to fit with your interpertation for the sake of your preference or making a competent case based on logic and reason against your enemy.
Geistalt
Geistalt

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on April 6th 2020, 1:55 am
I love hearing Korriban and Ziggy bitch and attempt to justify a non-literal interpretation, respectively.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 6th 2020, 1:57 am
Yeah you clearly didn't comprehend what I was saying
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 6th 2020, 1:58 am
Very Nice thread
Geistalt
Geistalt

Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 6th 2020, 1:59 am
@> Korriban

No; I understood it. You're just trying to convince Ziggy to change his mind.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
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Level Three

Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 6th 2020, 2:04 am
No. I'm trying to get people to start trimming the fat and stop dancing around with semantic based arguments that go against the structure of the sentence because it's just a spindly whiny thing to do.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
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on April 6th 2020, 2:05 am
I appealed to Ziggy's own personal values to reinforce that point
Ziggy
Ziggy

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on April 6th 2020, 12:30 pm
> Korriban wrote:Ziggy. I understand that your rhetoric is your strongest asset and you leverage that constantly, but holistically (something you appeal to quite frequently)   

Nice of you to say,  but I disagree.  

I'm not out here trying to convince people which character is more supreme than others, I don't think I'd have much success in the endeavour either.  

I'm merely attempting to test ideas, perhaps shed light on overlooked possibilities.  For this, honesty and open-mindedness are the only assets in need of leveraging.  


most of the "political power" quotes are clearly meant to depict force power.



And many do :


"Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history."


-- Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm



Is clearly meant to depict the power channelled against a lone target.  But a general decleration of supremacy, without the context of a force battle against a Jedi Grandmaster, could mean one thing, another or perhaps multiple things.  


"The most powerful Sith Lord" 


A Sith lords is a dark wizard with the Machiavellian goal of ruling the galaxy.  A Sith Lord's power is measured by own midichlorians but also how far he's managed to codify the sith imperative on a galactic scale.  He may command a great army, perhaps be loved and respected by the quadrillions and he may also possess deadly skill.  In the context of a galactic civil war, the context discussed here, Caedus' power is this :  Himself.  His forces.  The sum of which certainly dwarf LOTF Krayt, who is stuck on Korriban with whichever wayward sith chose his company. 


Now I can't see why this quote "clearly" refers to Force power alone.  I can why someone who enjoys spending time debating which character can beat the other 1 v 1  would automatically assume that very narrow interpretation, however.  



It comes down to being a squirming bias little moron forcing things to fit with your interpertation for the sake of your preference or making a competent case based on logic and reason against your enemy.



Logic and reason predicates one making a case, and explaining the reasons for it at least.  You have claimed that "power" is only force power and nothing else, whiteout explaining why.  If logic and reason is a man's wealth, I guess you're skint.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol?

on April 6th 2020, 6:33 pm
@DarthSkywalker0

I have always followed LFL policy as it pertains to quotes for debates. I do not necessarily take quotes as absolute to shape my private views, however. Darth Caedus > FOTJ Darth Krayt / Darish Vol? - Page 2 1289255181
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