Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 12:44 am
@darthbane77 wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
The Divine Source wrote:Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.

There are actual reasons to dismiss it anyway.

1.The web enhancement is outdated due to the KotOR:CG Malak Character Sheet in which no similar claim was made.

2.That web enhancement can be considered a part of an overarching gameplay narrative along with the Draay near Vader and Bastila ~ Obi-Wan quotes from the same source.

3.The TOTJ Omnibus states Kun is the greatest threat the galaxy's faced since the Republic was formed, which puts Kun over the Star Forge; by extension Malak.

1: A similar claim not being made does not constitute a retcon or provide valid reason to dismiss the quote that we do have, lol. Unless it's directly contradicted by a newer source, there is no real reason to assume the quote is false, especially given the level of verification that specific quote has undergone.

2: "Can be considered" defeats your point. It's not absolute truth that it's a game mechanic or exclusive to the game itself, and the quote's author has since made comments regarding it that pretty clearly demonstrate he wasn't writing it from that POV. Can you substantiate that it's wholly just part of the gameplay narrative? If not, then you don't really have any valid point.

3: The TotJ Omnibus was released pre-SWTOR, so any quote proclaiming Kun's all time supremacy, or even Old Republic era supremacy, is irrelevant, due to SWTOR proclaiming Tenebrae's supremacy.

1.Again, the web enhancement is an outdated source. It's been replaced by a newer source by the same company under the same media.

2.Unless you think Malak one-shots ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi, and by extension Revan and everyone else who scales from her. Then you're being hypocritical. KotOR Revan solos the PT era then. A lot of people didn't and don't consider the Champions of the Force miniatures series as seriously relevant to Canon because it's an internal universe that doesn't abide by lore at all.

3.Yeah, doesn't work like that champ. Kun being the biggest threat the galaxy has known since the Republic formed as of 4000 years before Luke was born doesn't in any way contradict the Vitiate most powerful quotes that are dated as of the Cold War in the TOR era by an in-universe text.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 1:07 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
The Divine Source wrote:Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.

There are actual reasons to dismiss it anyway.

1.The web enhancement is outdated due to the KotOR:CG Malak Character Sheet in which no similar claim was made.

2.That web enhancement can be considered a part of an overarching gameplay narrative along with the Draay near Vader and Bastila ~ Obi-Wan quotes from the same source.

3.The TOTJ Omnibus states Kun is the greatest threat the galaxy's faced since the Republic was formed, which puts Kun over the Star Forge; by extension Malak.

1: A similar claim not being made does not constitute a retcon or provide valid reason to dismiss the quote that we do have, lol. Unless it's directly contradicted by a newer source, there is no real reason to assume the quote is false, especially given the level of verification that specific quote has undergone.

2: "Can be considered" defeats your point. It's not absolute truth that it's a game mechanic or exclusive to the game itself, and the quote's author has since made comments regarding it that pretty clearly demonstrate he wasn't writing it from that POV. Can you substantiate that it's wholly just part of the gameplay narrative? If not, then you don't really have any valid point.

3: The TotJ Omnibus was released pre-SWTOR, so any quote proclaiming Kun's all time supremacy, or even Old Republic era supremacy, is irrelevant, due to SWTOR proclaiming Tenebrae's supremacy.

1.Again, the web enhancement is an outdated source. It's been replaced by a newer source by the same company under the same media.

2.Unless you think Malak one-shots ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi, and by extension Revan and everyone else who scales from her. Then you're being hypocritical. KotOR Revan solos the PT era then. A lot of people didn't  and don't consider the Champions of the Force miniatures series as seriously relevant to Canon because it's an internal universe that doesn't abide by lore at all.

3.Yeah, doesn't work like that champ. Kun being the biggest threat the galaxy has known since the Republic formed as of 4000 years before Luke was born doesn't in any way contradict the Vitiate most powerful quotes that are dated as of the Cold War in the TOR era by an in-universe text.

1. Provide something from this "newer source" that contradicts the quote then. Unless there's a direct contradiction, the quote stands.

2: Not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Revan is bound by numerous quotes for Yoda, Windu and Anakin, so he absolutely can't solo the PT era. Elaborate on how this means Revan could solo the PT era though, I do need some new comedic material. Also, while my personal stance on it isn't exactly relevant, I actually do think Malak one-shots Kenobi. *shrug*

3: Was under the impression you meant Kun was the greatest threat the galaxy had ever faced, that's my fault for not better understanding. That said, I'd still argue the point. Kun being the "greatest threat" the Republic had known doesn't really speak to personal usable power in combat/through the Force. It could just as easily be referring Kun's military power, which was considerable. Of course, if you provide the actual quote, you could potentially prove me wrong. I think you'd relish the opportunity, so why not share the quote and prove Kun's might? If you can.
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 1:49 am
In-sidiousvader wrote:Vader disintegrates with a glare
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 2:05 am
@darthbane77 wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
The Divine Source wrote:Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.

There are actual reasons to dismiss it anyway.

1.The web enhancement is outdated due to the KotOR:CG Malak Character Sheet in which no similar claim was made.

2.That web enhancement can be considered a part of an overarching gameplay narrative along with the Draay near Vader and Bastila ~ Obi-Wan quotes from the same source.

3.The TOTJ Omnibus states Kun is the greatest threat the galaxy's faced since the Republic was formed, which puts Kun over the Star Forge; by extension Malak.

1: A similar claim not being made does not constitute a retcon or provide valid reason to dismiss the quote that we do have, lol. Unless it's directly contradicted by a newer source, there is no real reason to assume the quote is false, especially given the level of verification that specific quote has undergone.

2: "Can be considered" defeats your point. It's not absolute truth that it's a game mechanic or exclusive to the game itself, and the quote's author has since made comments regarding it that pretty clearly demonstrate he wasn't writing it from that POV. Can you substantiate that it's wholly just part of the gameplay narrative? If not, then you don't really have any valid point.

3: The TotJ Omnibus was released pre-SWTOR, so any quote proclaiming Kun's all time supremacy, or even Old Republic era supremacy, is irrelevant, due to SWTOR proclaiming Tenebrae's supremacy.

1.Again, the web enhancement is an outdated source. It's been replaced by a newer source by the same company under the same media.

2.Unless you think Malak one-shots ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi, and by extension Revan and everyone else who scales from her. Then you're being hypocritical. KotOR Revan solos the PT era then. A lot of people didn't  and don't consider the Champions of the Force miniatures series as seriously relevant to Canon because it's an internal universe that doesn't abide by lore at all.

3.Yeah, doesn't work like that champ. Kun being the biggest threat the galaxy has known since the Republic formed as of 4000 years before Luke was born doesn't in any way contradict the Vitiate most powerful quotes that are dated as of the Cold War in the TOR era by an in-universe text.

1. Provide something from this "newer source" that contradicts the quote then. Unless there's a direct contradiction, the quote stands.

2: Not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Revan is bound by numerous quotes for Yoda, Windu and Anakin, so he absolutely can't solo the PT era. Elaborate on how this means Revan could solo the PT era though, I do need some new comedic material. Also, while my personal stance on it isn't exactly relevant, I actually do think Malak one-shots Kenobi. *shrug*

3: Was under the impression you meant Kun was the greatest threat the galaxy had ever faced, that's my fault for not better understanding. That said, I'd still argue the point. Kun being the "greatest threat" the Republic had known doesn't really speak to personal usable power in combat/through the Force. It could just as easily be referring Kun's military power, which was considerable. Of course, if you provide the actual quote, you could potentially prove me wrong. I think you'd relish the opportunity, so why not share the quote and prove Kun's might? If you can.

1.There doesn't need to be a direct retcon for a newer version of an older source to render the old redundant. Darth Bane trilogy did it to the Jedi VS Sith series; where Bane TKs a moon, the New Essential Chronology did so to the Essential Chronology, and so forth. It's the same deal here.

2.The same media source as the Malak > Kun quote is what claims the following:

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.

3.It's the galaxy, not merely the Republic. He's the greatest threat the galaxy has faced since the formation of the Republic. It's not talking about a military. It's clearly Kun himself:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!

By the way, even if you manage to deal with these three points. There's two much bigger issues at hand here.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 2:26 am
Oh I'll address all your "points", don't you worry. Can't do it tonight though, and won't be able to do it within the next week. I'll make a note to come back to this, if I forget, feel free to spam-tag me here until I do.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 6:48 am
It's always nice to watch AP get battered.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 8:44 pm
Yes, because that's certainly what's happened. Not.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 8:45 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:Yes, because that's certainly what's happened. Not.

Zinger.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 8:48 pm
ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:It's always nice to watch AP get battered.

Let's tone it down.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 10:55 pm
@LadyKulvax

Will get to this sometime soon, hopefully. Had to cancel my plans last minute, so I should have time now.
Odan-Urr
Odan-Urr

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 22nd 2019, 4:21 pm
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:I'd say Kun, but its very close.

Care to elaborate? I don't think it's that close at all.
The Witness
The Witness

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 23rd 2019, 1:38 pm
Vader
SummertimeSadness
SummertimeSadness

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 23rd 2019, 1:51 pm
Vader, nice fight.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 23rd 2019, 2:13 pm
Always has, and always will be, Kun.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 5:22 pm
@LadyKulvax

[[1.There doesn't need to be a direct retcon for a newer version of an older source to render the old redundant. Darth Bane trilogy did it to the Jedi VS Sith series; where Bane TKs a moon, the New Essential Chronology did so to the Essential Chronology, and so forth. It's the same deal here.]]

Except it’s not the same at all. The quote that proclaims Malak’s supremacy over Kun is a character summary written from an in-universe POV, and is independent of anything concerning Malak from an in-game POV.

Character Summary:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903302-malaksupreme.png

Stats:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903301-malakstats.png

The character summary is making a statement within the confines of the lore, but the quote regarding the stats note specifically that they’re referencing his powers within the game exclusively. The two quotes aren't tied together, they’re two separate claims about two separate topics. So there’s no retcon. It’s also possible that the later version of the game doesn’t acknowledge the Star Forge, while the original version obviously did.

[[2.The same media source as the Malak > Kun quote is what claims the following:

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:
Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.]]

The key difference here is, as I said above, the character summary and stats for Malak are independent of one another. The two quote you posted above aren’t lore based, they’re game based. I don’t see how you can draw a comparison between what’s said for Malak and what’s said for Draay and Bastila, since the Malak summary is made for lore, and the two above quotes are exclusively in-game, based on the fact that the source makes a difference between the two character’s lore descriptions and in-game descriptions, and those quotes are under the in-game descriptions. The Malak bit was also prior to the miniatures game in general. So even if the stats for Malak are different, the quote about him being Kun’s superior is in no way retconned or otherwise made irrelevant.

Notice how in the actual article, the quotes you provided specify “in the Star Wars miniatures game.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20090602090304/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars%2Farticle%2FCotFPreview6

http://swse.xphilesrealm.com/Mini%20RPG%20Stats/KOTOR2.pdf


[[3.It's the galaxy, not merely the Republic. He's the greatest threat the galaxy has faced since the formation of the Republic. It's not talking about a military. It's clearly Kun himself:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:
Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!]]

This is all well and good, but you seem to be assuming that the quote applies to people who came to galactic attention after Kun. Unless you have something that suggests that the quote applies to Sith and other threats that came after Kun. Otherwise the quote is pretty pointless.

As well, Darth Revan has a very similar accolade himself:

"As Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy."

-Revan Reborn codex

The above quote is pretty generalized, and doesn’t really specify that Revan was the greatest threat of just his time. One could argue that this applies to to the Republic’s entire history, which would make the Kun quote irrelevant. Now, since we know for a fact that Tenebrae was far beyond Darth Revan, this would be a pretty clear indicator of hierarchy, that hierarchy being Vitiate>>>Darth Revan>Exar Kun.

What’s more is that unlike the quote you provided, this quote attributes the threat to Darth Revan personally. The quote that you provided doesn’t directly attribute the danger to Kun himself, it just says  “the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!” with no reference or implication to Kun himself. The quote is general enough that it could mean Kun, it could mean Kun and Ulic together, or it could mean the Sith Empire as a whole, there’s no way to know for sure.


Last edited by darthbane77 on April 24th 2019, 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 5:33 pm
Darthbane77 ragdolling.
The Witness
The Witness

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 6:08 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:Kun *should* win.
Reasons?
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 6:12 pm
DeadlyJedi wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:Kun *should* win.
Reasons?

Edit: Will elaborate later.
The Witness
The Witness

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 6:21 pm
@Darthbane77 Ok cuz if Exar Kun is supposedly below Malak and Dooku, then I see no reason to believe why he shouldn't be below Vader too
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 6:24 pm
DeadlyJedi wrote:@Darthbane77 Ok cuz if Exar Kun is supposedly below Malak and Dooku, then I see no reason to believe why he shouldn't be below Vader too

Because Vader is below them as well.
The Witness
The Witness

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 6:31 pm
@SithArchaeologist I'm afraid I don't share that opinion
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 7:52 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:@LadyKulvax

[[1.There doesn't need to be a direct retcon for a newer version of an older source to render the old redundant. Darth Bane trilogy did it to the Jedi VS Sith series; where Bane TKs a moon, the New Essential Chronology did so to the Essential Chronology, and so forth. It's the same deal here.]]

Except it’s not the same at all. The quote that proclaims Malak’s supremacy over Kun is a character summary written from an in-universe POV, and is independent of anything concerning Malak from an in-game POV.

Character Summary:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903302-malaksupreme.png

Stats:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903301-malakstats.png

The character summary is making a statement within the confines of the lore, but the quote regarding the stats note specifically that they’re referencing his powers within the game exclusively. The two quotes aren't tied together, they’re two separate claims about two separate topics. So there’s no retcon. It’s also possible that the later version of the game doesn’t acknowledge the Star Forge, while the original version obviously did.

[[2.The same media source as the Malak > Kun quote is what claims the following:

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:
Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.]]

The key difference here is, as I said above, the character summary and stats for Malak are independent of one another. The two quote you posted above aren’t lore based, they’re game based. I don’t see how you can draw a comparison between what’s said for Malak and what’s said for Draay and Bastila, since the Malak summary is made for lore, and the two above quotes are exclusively in-game, based on the fact that the source makes a difference between the two character’s lore descriptions and in-game descriptions, and those quotes are under the in-game descriptions. The Malak bit was also prior to the miniatures game in general. So even if the stats for Malak are different, the quote about him being Kun’s superior is in no way retconned or otherwise made irrelevant.

Notice how in the actual article, the quotes you provided specify “in the Star Wars miniatures game.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20090602090304/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars%2Farticle%2FCotFPreview6

http://swse.xphilesrealm.com/Mini%20RPG%20Stats/KOTOR2.pdf


[[3.It's the galaxy, not merely the Republic. He's the greatest threat the galaxy has faced since the formation of the Republic. It's not talking about a military. It's clearly Kun himself:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:
Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!]]

This is all well and good, but you seem to be assuming that the quote applies to people who came to galactic attention after Kun. Unless you have something that suggests that the quote applies to Sith and other threats that came after Kun. Otherwise the quote is pretty pointless.

As well, Darth Revan has a very similar accolade himself:

"As Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy."

-Revan Reborn codex

The above quote is pretty generalized, and doesn’t really specify that Revan was the greatest threat of just his time. One could argue that this applies to to the Republic’s entire history, which would make the Kun quote irrelevant. Now, since we know for a fact that Tenebrae was far beyond Darth Revan, this would be a pretty clear indicator of hierarchy, that hierarchy being Vitiate>>>Darth Revan>Exar Kun.

What’s more is that unlike the quote you provided, this quote attributes the threat to Darth Revan personally. The quote that you provided doesn’t directly attribute the danger to Kun himself, it just says  “the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!” with no reference or implication to Kun himself. The quote is general enough that it could mean Kun, it could mean Kun and Ulic together, or it could mean the Sith Empire as a whole, there’s no way to know for sure.

1.Wait, did you just argue it's an in-universe POV? Very well, I agree. Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 815462187

2.The Kun quote doesn't need to cover the after-the-fact. It places him over the Star Forge, which is much more impressive.

3.That Revan quote is obviously referring to the time, and not all-time. Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 1220391476

4.Considering Kun is already stated to be the biggest threat of that time. That's a self-solving puzzle.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 9:13 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:@LadyKulvax

[[1.There doesn't need to be a direct retcon for a newer version of an older source to render the old redundant. Darth Bane trilogy did it to the Jedi VS Sith series; where Bane TKs a moon, the New Essential Chronology did so to the Essential Chronology, and so forth. It's the same deal here.]]

Except it’s not the same at all. The quote that proclaims Malak’s supremacy over Kun is a character summary written from an in-universe POV, and is independent of anything concerning Malak from an in-game POV.

Character Summary:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903302-malaksupreme.png

Stats:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903301-malakstats.png

The character summary is making a statement within the confines of the lore, but the quote regarding the stats note specifically that they’re referencing his powers within the game exclusively. The two quotes aren't tied together, they’re two separate claims about two separate topics. So there’s no retcon. It’s also possible that the later version of the game doesn’t acknowledge the Star Forge, while the original version obviously did.

[[2.The same media source as the Malak > Kun quote is what claims the following:

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:
Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.]]

The key difference here is, as I said above, the character summary and stats for Malak are independent of one another. The two quote you posted above aren’t lore based, they’re game based. I don’t see how you can draw a comparison between what’s said for Malak and what’s said for Draay and Bastila, since the Malak summary is made for lore, and the two above quotes are exclusively in-game, based on the fact that the source makes a difference between the two character’s lore descriptions and in-game descriptions, and those quotes are under the in-game descriptions. The Malak bit was also prior to the miniatures game in general. So even if the stats for Malak are different, the quote about him being Kun’s superior is in no way retconned or otherwise made irrelevant.

Notice how in the actual article, the quotes you provided specify “in the Star Wars miniatures game.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20090602090304/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars%2Farticle%2FCotFPreview6

http://swse.xphilesrealm.com/Mini%20RPG%20Stats/KOTOR2.pdf


[[3.It's the galaxy, not merely the Republic. He's the greatest threat the galaxy has faced since the formation of the Republic. It's not talking about a military. It's clearly Kun himself:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:
Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!]]

This is all well and good, but you seem to be assuming that the quote applies to people who came to galactic attention after Kun. Unless you have something that suggests that the quote applies to Sith and other threats that came after Kun. Otherwise the quote is pretty pointless.

As well, Darth Revan has a very similar accolade himself:

"As Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy."

-Revan Reborn codex

The above quote is pretty generalized, and doesn’t really specify that Revan was the greatest threat of just his time. One could argue that this applies to to the Republic’s entire history, which would make the Kun quote irrelevant. Now, since we know for a fact that Tenebrae was far beyond Darth Revan, this would be a pretty clear indicator of hierarchy, that hierarchy being Vitiate>>>Darth Revan>Exar Kun.

What’s more is that unlike the quote you provided, this quote attributes the threat to Darth Revan personally. The quote that you provided doesn’t directly attribute the danger to Kun himself, it just says  “the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!” with no reference or implication to Kun himself. The quote is general enough that it could mean Kun, it could mean Kun and Ulic together, or it could mean the Sith Empire as a whole, there’s no way to know for sure.

1.Wait, did you just argue it's an in-universe POV? Very well, I agree. Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 815462187

2.The Kun quote doesn't need to cover the after-the-fact. It places him over the Star Forge, which is much more impressive.

3.That Revan quote is obviously referring to the time, and not all-time. Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 1220391476

4.Considering Kun is already stated to be the biggest threat of that time. That's a self-solving puzzle.

1: I meant written pertaining to the lore itself. Written for the universe vs written for the game specifically. I thought that was clear enough based on me differentiating between the quotes speaking from a lore POV vs a game specific POV. Even if it *was* exclusively in-universe, that doesn't make it worthless. At any rate, you didn't exactly "counter" what I said, so should I expect you to do so? Or should I expect you to dodge it some more?

2: Except the Star Forge was never established as a threat to galaxy or the Republic itself, that I can remember, only that it destroyed the Rakata species, then obviously faded into obscurity until the Jedi Civil War. As well, the Star Forge stopped being a direct threat to anyone after the destruction of the Infinite Empire, when Kun rose to power, the Star Forge wasn't a threat to anyone because nobody knew where or even what it was. The quote also specifically says that Kun was the greatest threat the galaxy had seen "since the formation of the Republic" which occurred centuries after the fall of the Infinite Empire. Regardless of how you look at it, the quote does not, in any way, scale Kun above the Star Forge.

Even if Kun DID scale above the Forge, it wouldn't mean much of anything anyway, because Malak's ability to dominate the Forge and then power it to 300% efficiency is rather indicative that Malak himself is more powerful than the Star Forge. So ultimately, the quote you provided for Kun doesn't matter in the slightest.

3: How is that? The language in the quote doesn't give any indication of era specificity, it just says that he became "the Republic's deadliest enemy." If you consider that era specific, and not the quote you provided for Kun, then maybe we should address your clear double standards before moving on. The quote you provided reads:

"Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!"

The first part of the quote gives a time period, four thousand years before Luke Skywalker, which is when "Tales of the Jedi" takes place, and the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the Republic being created. The quote is very clearly attributing Kun's threat to just that time period, to just Kun's lifetime. There is absolutely nothing in the quote that implies Kun was a greater threat than those who followed immediately after him.

4: The strongest threat of his time, specifically, yes. SWTOR and KotOR aren't of his time. So can you prove definitively that the quote applies to the whole of the Old Republic, as you seem to be arguing? Or what?
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 9:15 pm
DeadlyJedi wrote:@Darthbane77 Ok cuz if Exar Kun is supposedly below Malak and Dooku, then I see no reason to believe why he shouldn't be below Vader too

Vader is significantly below Dooku himself, and Malak's domination of the Star Forge is something vastly beyond Vader's abilities, imo.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 24th 2019, 10:48 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:@LadyKulvax

[[1.There doesn't need to be a direct retcon for a newer version of an older source to render the old redundant. Darth Bane trilogy did it to the Jedi VS Sith series; where Bane TKs a moon, the New Essential Chronology did so to the Essential Chronology, and so forth. It's the same deal here.]]

Except it’s not the same at all. The quote that proclaims Malak’s supremacy over Kun is a character summary written from an in-universe POV, and is independent of anything concerning Malak from an in-game POV.

Character Summary:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903302-malaksupreme.png

Stats:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6903301-malakstats.png

The character summary is making a statement within the confines of the lore, but the quote regarding the stats note specifically that they’re referencing his powers within the game exclusively. The two quotes aren't tied together, they’re two separate claims about two separate topics. So there’s no retcon. It’s also possible that the later version of the game doesn’t acknowledge the Star Forge, while the original version obviously did.

[[2.The same media source as the Malak > Kun quote is what claims the following:

Knights of the Old Republic Preview 2 wrote:
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:
Bastila. Clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.]]

The key difference here is, as I said above, the character summary and stats for Malak are independent of one another. The two quote you posted above aren’t lore based, they’re game based. I don’t see how you can draw a comparison between what’s said for Malak and what’s said for Draay and Bastila, since the Malak summary is made for lore, and the two above quotes are exclusively in-game, based on the fact that the source makes a difference between the two character’s lore descriptions and in-game descriptions, and those quotes are under the in-game descriptions. The Malak bit was also prior to the miniatures game in general. So even if the stats for Malak are different, the quote about him being Kun’s superior is in no way retconned or otherwise made irrelevant.

Notice how in the actual article, the quotes you provided specify “in the Star Wars miniatures game.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20090602090304/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars%2Farticle%2FCotFPreview6

http://swse.xphilesrealm.com/Mini%20RPG%20Stats/KOTOR2.pdf


[[3.It's the galaxy, not merely the Republic. He's the greatest threat the galaxy has faced since the formation of the Republic. It's not talking about a military. It's clearly Kun himself:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:
Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!]]

This is all well and good, but you seem to be assuming that the quote applies to people who came to galactic attention after Kun. Unless you have something that suggests that the quote applies to Sith and other threats that came after Kun. Otherwise the quote is pretty pointless.

As well, Darth Revan has a very similar accolade himself:

"As Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy."

-Revan Reborn codex

The above quote is pretty generalized, and doesn’t really specify that Revan was the greatest threat of just his time. One could argue that this applies to to the Republic’s entire history, which would make the Kun quote irrelevant. Now, since we know for a fact that Tenebrae was far beyond Darth Revan, this would be a pretty clear indicator of hierarchy, that hierarchy being Vitiate>>>Darth Revan>Exar Kun.

What’s more is that unlike the quote you provided, this quote attributes the threat to Darth Revan personally. The quote that you provided doesn’t directly attribute the danger to Kun himself, it just says  “the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!” with no reference or implication to Kun himself. The quote is general enough that it could mean Kun, it could mean Kun and Ulic together, or it could mean the Sith Empire as a whole, there’s no way to know for sure.

1.Wait, did you just argue it's an in-universe POV? Very well, I agree. Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 815462187

2.The Kun quote doesn't need to cover the after-the-fact. It places him over the Star Forge, which is much more impressive.

3.That Revan quote is obviously referring to the time, and not all-time. Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 1220391476

4.Considering Kun is already stated to be the biggest threat of that time. That's a self-solving puzzle.

1: I meant written pertaining to the lore itself. Written for the universe vs written for the game specifically. I thought that was clear enough based on me differentiating between the quotes speaking from a lore POV vs a game specific POV. Even if it *was* exclusively in-universe, that doesn't make it worthless. At any rate, you didn't exactly "counter" what I said, so should I expect you to do so? Or should I expect you to dodge it some more?

2: Except the Star Forge was never established as a threat to galaxy or the Republic itself, that I can remember, only that it destroyed the Rakata species, then obviously faded into obscurity until the Jedi Civil War. As well, the Star Forge stopped being a direct threat to anyone after the destruction of the Infinite Empire, when Kun rose to power, the Star Forge wasn't a threat to anyone because nobody knew where or even what it was. The quote also specifically says that Kun was the greatest threat the galaxy had seen "since the formation of the Republic" which occurred centuries after the fall of the Infinite Empire. Regardless of how you look at it, the quote does not, in any way, scale Kun above the Star Forge.

Even if Kun DID scale above the Forge, it wouldn't mean much of anything anyway, because Malak's ability to dominate the Forge and then power it to 300% efficiency is rather indicative that Malak himself is more powerful than the Star Forge. So ultimately, the quote you provided for Kun doesn't matter in the slightest.

3: How is that? The language in the quote doesn't give any indication of era specificity, it just says that he became "the Republic's deadliest enemy." If you consider that era specific, and not the quote you provided for Kun, then maybe we should address your clear double standards before moving on. The quote you provided reads:

"Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!"

The first part of the quote gives a time period, four thousand years before Luke Skywalker, which is when "Tales of the Jedi" takes place, and the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the Republic being created. The quote is very clearly attributing Kun's threat to just that time period, to just Kun's lifetime. There is absolutely nothing in the quote that implies Kun was a greater threat than those who followed immediately after him.

4: The strongest threat of his time, specifically, yes. SWTOR and KotOR aren't of his time. So can you prove definitively that the quote applies to the whole of the Old Republic, as you seem to be arguing? Or what?

1.It doesn't matter. The entire narrative is within the Wizards of the Coast game.

2.The Star Forge was a threat to the galaxy regardless of its dormancy. A threat doesn't cease to be one just because its not actively in use. There are tsar bombas in Russia not in use, are they no longer threats then?

3.Again, you're the only arguing that the Omnibus quote goes beyond Kun's time.

4.If the greatest threat to the galaxy is in the Great Sith War and the greatest threat in the Great Sith War is Exar Kun....

Okay, so apparently I have to go through this properly or Arkham's going to have a hype-man orgasm.

The quote interpreted in your way, is massively contradictory to Kun's canonical status from OOU and IU sources as a nigh-Sheev tier Sith in Force power. To ignore that is egregious at best.

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Malak's quote has stated that he was given far greater powers, plural. Notice how it clearly differentiates between plural and singular at the start of the quote? These powers could be, but aren't limited to, the unique giga-draining technique, the Star Forge affording him the ability to extend his longevity indefinitely.

Beyond that, we know that Darth Traya was powered by a 'colossal geyser' of dark side energy that was echoing across the galaxy. A nexus that is demonstratably far more corruptive and dangerous than anything we've seen the Star Forge display. Thus she empowered by the Trayus Core, would be even more powerful than Malak. Yet by every comparison, Traya is not as powerful as some of the strongest ancient Sith Lords such as Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Ajunta Pall, and obviously the strongest amongst them, Marka Ragnos. Hell, even Darth Nihilus isn't. Yet Kun is supreme over all of them.

I mean, honestly, this is no greater a source than, for example, the blurb on the Darth Plagueis novel. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that a novel stated to be the most important, highest canonicity, Star Wars Legends material to date, is on a vastly higher level of authenticity than any Wizards article. Yet this novel wasn't just maintained by someone like Leland Chee, it went through the desk of none other than George Lucas before the stamp of approval. Yet Chee insists that any major 'most powerful' quotes are subjective by nature. If the Darth Plagueis blurb can be subjective by its nature, and this is the most carefully created work in the history of the expanded universe; maintained and purviewed by both of the supreme authorities on all of this, then why the hell should I take a statement in a deleted web supplement for a game that has absolutely no ground in bonafide source material at all as an infallible factoid?

Now unless you want to go about arguing that a Wizards supplement has any form of greater viability to stand on its own two feet than the most carefully crafted work in all of Star Wars Expanded Universe history, then I imagine my point here is crystal clear.
Sponsored content

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum