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UnquantifiableCharacter77
UnquantifiableCharacter77
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 10:00 am
In character.

Fight takes place in an open field.

Darth Vader as of Return Of The Jedi.

Exar Kun as of Tales of the Jedi - The Sith War #6.

Who wins?
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 10:06 am
Kun obliterates.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 10:23 am
Kun actually one-shots, to be honest.
UnquantifiableCharacter77
UnquantifiableCharacter77
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 10:28 am
Raisins folks?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 10:30 am
He's got scaling and feats well beyond Vader's league.
UnquantifiableCharacter77
UnquantifiableCharacter77
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 10:37 am
Bit vague, mind elaborating?

Darth Vader V Exar Kun 228124001
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 10:39 am
His simultaneous Kyp and Luke trollfest as a spirit already seals the deal.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 11:11 am
Vader, good fight.
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 11:21 am
Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 11:29 am
Yikes there's some serious Kun overrating taking hold already.

It seems likely that spirit Kun was stronger than Kun was while alive. He was able to complete his ritual and consume the Massassi just before he was killed by the Wall of Light. The quote that states he was still trying to regain the power he had while alive could be referring to that moment just then.

Given that spirit Kun is a presence out of proportion with Kun as portrayed while alive, it's the position that makes the most sense. Additionally, spirit Kun was able to dominate Luke due to Luke not having prepared for Kun's attacks, and not knowing how to defend against them. In a direct contest of wills & power, Luke prevailed fairly easily.

Malak's utter domination of the Star Forge and pushing it to over 300% capacity is a better feat than Kun has while alive. There's no doubt that Malak>living Kun.
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 11:36 am
SithArchaeologist wrote:Yikes there's some serious Kun overrating taking hold already.

It seems likely that spirit Kun was stronger than Kun was while alive. He was able to complete his ritual and consume the Massassi just before he was killed by the Wall of Light. The quote that states he was still trying to regain the power he had while alive could be referring to that moment just then.

Given that spirit Kun is a presence out of proportion with Kun as portrayed while alive, it's the position that makes the most sense. Additionally, spirit Kun was able to dominate Luke due to Luke not having prepared for Kun's attacks, and not knowing how to defend against them. In a direct contest of wills & power, Luke prevailed fairly easily.

Malak's utter domination of the Star Forge and pushing it to over 300% capacity is a better feat than Kun has while alive. There's no doubt that Malak>living Kun.

See, the issue there is that no evidence supports Kun actually being more powerful as a spirit than in physical form in TOTJ, and like you said, it's stated he's trying to regain the power he had while alive. The massassi ritual has always been stated to be the means by which Kun ascended to become a force spirit, it never actually made him more powerful. Furthermore, Spirit Kun already made a return  between the events of TOTJ and JA, (he TP's some miners but ultimately gets defeated/they escape), and he's a weakened plebe compared to his FP while living. The idea that consuming some few hundred thousand massassi is turning Kun from far below SF Malak to being vastly beyond Vader as a spirit with no channel for midichlorians is "the position that makes the most sense" with the aforementioned information in mind is ludicrous.
LSDMB
LSDMB
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 11:38 am
Well you could look at it as somewhat a similar situation to one of Vitiate's rituals and expect a spirit boost from that or some shit idk.

Though, this quote shit was always weird, so I'm interested in seeing how this pans out.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 11:39 am
The Divine Source wrote:See, the issue there is that no evidence supports Kun actually being more powerful as a spirit than in physical form in TOTJ, and like you said, it's stated he's trying to regain the power he had while alive. The massassi ritual has always been stated to be the means by which Kun ascended to become a force spirit, it never actually made him more powerful. Furthermore, Spirit Kun already made a return  between the events of TOTJ and JA, (he TP's some miners but ultimately gets defeated/they escape), and he's a weakened plebe compared to his FP while living. The idea that consuming some few hundred thousand massassi is turning Kun from far below SF Malak to being vastly beyond Vader as a spirit with no channel for midichlorians is "the position that makes the most sense" with the aforementioned information in mind is ludicrous.

Well then you're failing to see the most logical conclusion: that Kun wasn't actually all that powerful, comparably speaking, as a spirit.
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 11:48 am
SithArchaeologist wrote:
The Divine Source wrote:See, the issue there is that no evidence supports Kun actually being more powerful as a spirit than in physical form in TOTJ, and like you said, it's stated he's trying to regain the power he had while alive. The massassi ritual has always been stated to be the means by which Kun ascended to become a force spirit, it never actually made him more powerful. Furthermore, Spirit Kun already made a return  between the events of TOTJ and JA, (he TP's some miners but ultimately gets defeated/they escape), and he's a weakened plebe compared to his FP while living. The idea that consuming some few hundred thousand massassi is turning Kun from far below SF Malak to being vastly beyond Vader as a spirit with no channel for midichlorians is "the position that makes the most sense" with the aforementioned information in mind is ludicrous.

Well then you're failing to see the most logical conclusion: that Kun wasn't actually all that powerful, comparably speaking, as a spirit.

You first claim that the logical conclusion is that Spirit Kun >> Living Kun given their variance in hype and showings, yet move the goal posts upon being shown more arguments/evidence.

This is far from the most logical conclusion, though, given that Spirit Kun is stated to be more powerful than Kueller (who in turn is implied to be >> Vader), more powerful than any being Corran Horn knew, in league with Sidious, etc. and was capable of magnifying Kyp's power to such an extent that he could dominate Luke Skywalker and bind his spirit outside of his body. I think people lowball this because it's a shared feat with Kyp, but we can even see in mid - KOTFE that Spirit Valkorion doing something similar with the Outlander was less effective against someone much weaker than Luke in KOTFE Arcann. Kyp has much more potential than the Outlander at that point, but that Kun could magnify Kyp's applicable power to such an extent is nigh-unprecedented when compared to similar situations. What's telling is that even when Kun is no longer directly possessing Kyp, Luke is unable to escape his spiritual binding until Exar Kun's spirit is obliterated entirely.


LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 12:01 pm
The Divine Source wrote:Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.

There are actual reasons to dismiss it anyway.

1.The web enhancement is outdated due to the KotOR:CG Malak Character Sheet in which no similar claim was made.

2.That web enhancement can be considered a part of an overarching gameplay narrative along with the Draay near Vader and Bastila ~ Obi-Wan quotes from the same source.

3.The TOTJ Omnibus states Kun is the greatest threat the galaxy's faced since the Republic was formed, which puts Kun over the Star Forge; by extension Malak.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 12:08 pm
The Divine Source wrote:
SithArchaeologist wrote:
The Divine Source wrote:See, the issue there is that no evidence supports Kun actually being more powerful as a spirit than in physical form in TOTJ, and like you said, it's stated he's trying to regain the power he had while alive. The massassi ritual has always been stated to be the means by which Kun ascended to become a force spirit, it never actually made him more powerful. Furthermore, Spirit Kun already made a return  between the events of TOTJ and JA, (he TP's some miners but ultimately gets defeated/they escape), and he's a weakened plebe compared to his FP while living. The idea that consuming some few hundred thousand massassi is turning Kun from far below SF Malak to being vastly beyond Vader as a spirit with no channel for midichlorians is "the position that makes the most sense" with the aforementioned information in mind is ludicrous.

Well then you're failing to see the most logical conclusion: that Kun wasn't actually all that powerful, comparably speaking, as a spirit.

You first claim that the logical conclusion is that Spirit Kun >> Living Kun given their variance in hype and showings, yet move the goal posts upon being shown more arguments/evidence.

This is far from the most logical conclusion, though, given that Spirit Kun is stated to be more powerful than Kueller (who in turn is implied to be >> Vader), more powerful than any being Corran Horn knew, in league with Sidious, etc. and was capable of magnifying Kyp's power to such an extent that he could dominate Luke Skywalker and bind his spirit outside of his body. I think people lowball this because it's a shared feat with Kyp, but we can even see in mid - KOTFE that Spirit Valkorion doing something similar with the Outlander was less effective against someone much weaker than Luke in KOTFE Arcann. Kyp has much more potential than the Outlander at that point, but that Kun could magnify Kyp's applicable power to such an extent is nigh-unprecedented when compared to similar situations. What's telling is that even when Kun is no longer directly possessing Kyp, Luke is unable to escape his spiritual binding until Exar Kun's spirit is obliterated entirely.

I'd argue both are true; they aren't mutually exclusive. I'll get back to you on the rest.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 12:44 pm
Kun *should* win.
Trayvon
Trayvon

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 2:40 pm
ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Kun obliterates.
Ziggy
Ziggy

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 2:41 pm
Kun in a fairly lopsided match.

It's not that I think Kun is super powerful anymore but, he does still look better than Vader in a feature comparison and doesn't have his handicaps.

He isn't gimped in terms of his mobility. Vader on the other hand is. Allowing multiple neophytes, including Luke on bespin, to trim his hedges.

There's a source claiming Luke at that point,actually pushed Vader to mid difficulty rather than giving him the stomping he should have... which is completely pathetic for Vader. I have to assume the guy who couldn't lift up and x-wing during that relative time period (days?) is somehow a beast for Vader to come out looking good.

To the contrary, Kun's spirit, even when drained dry, not even having a temple to tether his ethereal form to the physical realm, is choking Luke's force melded Praxium collective who were both amped by the spirit of Vodo and Luke. Many of these students were better trained than ESB Luke and had better feats than failing to lift an X wing.

To top it of, The physical benefits of Vader's cybernetics are moot if Kun's strength feats, even as a Jedi, are better than his with augmentation alone.










DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 4:55 pm
I'd say Kun, but its very close.
> Korriban
> Korriban
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 6:37 pm
Vader disintegrates with a glare
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 8:51 pm
The Divine Source wrote:
SithArchaeologist wrote:Yikes there's some serious Kun overrating taking hold already.

It seems likely that spirit Kun was stronger than Kun was while alive. He was able to complete his ritual and consume the Massassi just before he was killed by the Wall of Light. The quote that states he was still trying to regain the power he had while alive could be referring to that moment just then.

Given that spirit Kun is a presence out of proportion with Kun as portrayed while alive, it's the position that makes the most sense. Additionally, spirit Kun was able to dominate Luke due to Luke not having prepared for Kun's attacks, and not knowing how to defend against them. In a direct contest of wills & power, Luke prevailed fairly easily.

Malak's utter domination of the Star Forge and pushing it to over 300% capacity is a better feat than Kun has while alive. There's no doubt that Malak>living Kun.

See, the issue there is that no evidence supports Kun actually being more powerful as a spirit than in physical form in TOTJ, and like you said, it's stated he's trying to regain the power he had while alive. The massassi ritual has always been stated to be the means by which Kun ascended to become a force spirit, it never actually made him more powerful. Furthermore, Spirit Kun already made a return  between the events of TOTJ and JA, (he TP's some miners but ultimately gets defeated/they escape), and he's a weakened plebe compared to his FP while living. The idea that consuming some few hundred thousand massassi is turning Kun from far below SF Malak to being vastly beyond Vader as a spirit with no channel for midichlorians is "the position that makes the most sense" with the aforementioned information in mind is ludicrous.

Or maybe Kun just isn't more powerful than Vader. Ever thought of that? Darth Vader V Exar Kun 228124001
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 9:04 pm
Multiple lines of scaling, accolades and feats state he objectively murks him. Not even a debate, tbh. Kyp is confirmed to be at least a Vader level threat if not greater. We know he achieved his 'full might' when empowered by Kun, which utterly dwarfs Vader. Kun is confirmed to be even stronger than Kyp and proves so by dominating his will from across the galaxy whilst fighting off the students and spirits in the Praxeum.

Kun destroys Vader.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 20th 2019, 9:52 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:
The Divine Source wrote:Personally, I have my own doubts on whether or not the Malak quote really applies anymore, given the number of retcons and contradictions it causes trying to rationalize the quotes and showings from JA. Even if the Malak quote is "newer" than all of these quotes and showings, I think it breaks the lore too greatly to be taken as infallible.
 
With that said, Exar Kun pounds Vader into the dirt.

There are actual reasons to dismiss it anyway.

1.The web enhancement is outdated due to the KotOR:CG Malak Character Sheet in which no similar claim was made.

2.That web enhancement can be considered a part of an overarching gameplay narrative along with the Draay near Vader and Bastila ~ Obi-Wan quotes from the same source.

3.The TOTJ Omnibus states Kun is the greatest threat the galaxy's faced since the Republic was formed, which puts Kun over the Star Forge; by extension Malak.

1: A similar claim not being made does not constitute a retcon or provide valid reason to dismiss the quote that we do have, lol. Unless it's directly contradicted by a newer source, there is no real reason to assume the quote is false, especially given the level of verification that specific quote has undergone.

2: "Can be considered" defeats your point. It's not absolute truth that it's a game mechanic or exclusive to the game itself, and the quote's author has since made comments regarding it that pretty clearly demonstrate he wasn't writing it from that POV. Can you substantiate that it's wholly just part of the gameplay narrative? If not, then you don't really have any valid point.

3: The TotJ Omnibus was released pre-SWTOR, so any quote proclaiming Kun's all time supremacy, or even Old Republic era supremacy, is irrelevant, due to SWTOR proclaiming Tenebrae's supremacy.
slayne
slayne

Darth Vader V Exar Kun Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on April 21st 2019, 12:38 am
Leaning Exar.
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