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Force Choke/Pin/Ragdoll Supremacy Examples? Empty Force Choke/Pin/Ragdoll Supremacy Examples?

on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 5:24
I've been questioning if it's possible to quantify the various examples where character A Force Chokes character B. It's usually a case where B is already subordinate to A, and/or completely caught off-guard by them and/or already inferior to them. We would usually say "Well they are caught off-guard, A wouldn't be able to do that in a fight." That much I agree with.

However, have we ever seen a case where a weaker character chokes/pins/ragdolls a stronger character, even by catching them off-guard? The reason I think about it is, it occurs to me that characters like Sidious could (and apparently often did) solve so many problems by just TK-assassinating his opponents across the galaxy, shattering their trachea before they can respond in their sleep or something. So it got me thinking, if it is possible to TK assassinate someone off-guard, why haven't the various Sith subordinates throughout galactic history been able to quickly smash their Master's trachea or internal organs when they are off-guard?

From what I can tell, even when someone is caught in a choke off-guard, as long as they are kept there against their will, it's a clear sign of A being superior to B, and we would never see B successfully, or even attempt to, choke A by surprise, presumably because A would break out, it would lead to a fight, and they would die. I think that's why the likes of Dooku and Vader schemed to kill Sidious with an apprentice rather than individually assassinating them. Whether it's because Sidious is so strong that trying to kill him individually would be a fool's errand, or he is so superior in precog he would sense them coming way before they could make the attempt, or both.

So with that being the case, I'd argue that any instance of character A choking/pinning/ragdolling character B, even if they are caught off-guard or subordinate, is still a clear cut sign that they are inferior, could never do the same to character A and would likely die in the attempt.

To throw out some examples of supremacy:

-Sidious and his apprentices
-Krayt and the One Sith
-Luke and Caedus
-Potentially Nihl and Cade in early Legacy
-Plagueis and early Sidious
-Bane and early Zannah

Some examples of parity:

-Galen being able to fight back when Vader chokes him
-Rahm Kota losing a choke-struggle to Galen Marek largely because his lungs were empty to begin with whereas Galen's were full
Azronger
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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 9:41
Kenth pinning Kyp, although I'm not sure as to what the context was

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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 10:41
ILS wrote:From what I can tell, even when someone is caught in a choke off-guard, as long as they are kept there against their will, it's a clear sign of A being superior to B, and we would never see B successfully, or even attempt to, choke A by surprise, presumably because A would break out, it would lead to a fight, and they would die. I think that's why the likes of Dooku and Vader schemed to kill Sidious with an apprentice rather than individually assassinating them. Whether it's because Sidious is so strong that trying to kill him individually would be a fool's errand, or he is so superior in precog he would sense them coming way before they could make the attempt, or both.

Bingo. If character A has character B in a choke hold grip, character B can trying to resist the grip, whether they can do resist the grip or not dependents if they have the strength, if they don't have the strength to resist the grip, then they are inferior to character A, but we do have to take into account whether character B is at full strength or not e.g. if they're exhausted, this doesn't prove that they would be unable to resist the choke if they were fresh.


Last edited by Latham2000 on Fri 3 Apr 2020 - 5:45; edited 1 time in total
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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 11:54
Maul pinning Sidious in a deleted scene, Flesh Raider knocking the HoT clean off their feet with the Force, Kira knocking down the HoT when possessed by Vitiate and thus using her reserves, act 3 Vitiate sending the HoT reeling, Malgus blasting the Outlander clean off their feet.

Not sure how many of these fit what you're talking about, I'm afraid.
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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 11:57
He's asking for examples of chokes, pins, and ragdolls, not pushes.

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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 12:01
In that case, only a couple spring to mind, e.g. Maul pinning Sidious in a deleted scene.
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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 12:38
You can break out of stasis with an explosion of inner power (Bane, coalition strike team), and a choke/grapple by breaking the focus of whoever is grabbing you (Starkiller, Luke). Like Lantham said, I generally agree that a failure to do so is—at least in large part—due to an inability to do so. Force Choke/Pin/Ragdoll Supremacy Examples? 1289255181
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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 13:29
Vaylin and Senya in A Mother's Hope.


“You sound like SCORPIO,” Vaylin sneered, swiping ineffectually at the air where her target had been a split second before. “Always talking about logic and reason.”

“Is that who you take orders from now?” Senya pressed. “A machine?”

Vaylin flicked her wrist, hurtling Senya through the air to slam against the hull of one of the broken vessels surrounding the camp. Senya crumpled to the ground, momentarily stunned.

“SCORPIO is not the Empress!” Vaylin snarled, striding towards her fallen opponent. “She commands the GEMINI fleet, but they all answer to me. I am the one who sits on the Eternal Throne!”

Shaking her head to clear the fog, Senya rose to one knee. A few meters away on either side, twin rows of flames blazed, the acrid smoke stinging her eyes and nostrils.

She can’t defeat me in hand-to-hand combat, but she could still kill me anytime she likes. She’s been toying with me this whole time.


[hideedit]


Last edited by Praxis on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 16:34; edited 2 times in total
MasterCilghal
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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 13:51
@Azronger wrote:Kenth pinning Kyp, although I'm not sure as to what the context was

Kyp was taken off-guard and how long Kenth was able to keep him pinned is unclear.
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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 15:12
DarthAnt66 wrote:You can break out of stasis with an explosion of inner power (Bane, coalition strike team), and a choke/grapple by breaking the focus of whoever is grabbing you (Starkiller, Luke). Like Lantham said, I generally agree that a failure to do so is—at least in large part—due to an inability to do so. Force Choke/Pin/Ragdoll Supremacy Examples? 1289255181

Bane didn't break out with "an explosion of inner power" ; he was so much more powerful than Farfalla already that the stasis only held him in place for a fraction of a second and he continued his stride virtually uninterrupted.

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on Thu 2 Apr 2020 - 15:59
If a Force grip is a sign of superiority, it means that:

  1. The victim is using his/her full TK ability. Otherwise we wouldn't hold the characters to the same standard, so we couldn't infer superiority.
  2. The victim is immediately overpowered. If the victim could match the power of the attacker for even one second, they would break free of the Force grip.

Therefore, it is not possible for characters to show superiority via Force grip, unless the gaps are so astronomical that they would rip through their opponents' full TK power from the get-go.

In (Disney) canon, some examples go against the notion that full power can be used to break a Force grip. Taron Malicos ragdolled Cal Kestis, Kanan Jarrus ragdolled the Grand Inquisitor, Darth Vader choked Kirak Infil'a to death... but none of them could replicate those showings without an opening. Only possibility is that the the victims couldn't use their full power to counter, or else they would have broken free (surely they could match the power of those grips for a time).

I don't know whether there are similar examples in Legends, though. TCW Ventress vs Anakin & Obi-Wan might qualify, depending on whether you think the duo should have broken free within the ~5 seconds they were choking.
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on Sat 4 Apr 2020 - 10:42
Numerous examples come to mind:

1. Maul pinning Sidious in the deleted scenes

2. Vader choking Starkiller, and the general consensus is that Starkiller is superior to that version of Vader noticeably

3. Ventress choking Anakin and Obi Wan and continuing to pin them for a pretty noticeable amount of time. While Ventress would have been exposing her limits, it is pretty evident that both Anakin and Obi Wan working together should have been able to overpower her, given both are noticeably superior to Ventress then

4. Hamner pinning Kyp, putting him in the pin for a noticeable amount of time, probably

Pretty sure other examples exist too

However, have we ever seen a case where a weaker character chokes/pins/ragdolls a stronger character, even by catching them off-guard? The reason I think about it is, it occurs to me that characters like Sidious could (and apparently often did) solve so many problems by just TK-assassinating his opponents across the galaxy, shattering their trachea before they can respond in their sleep or something. So it got me thinking, if it is possible to TK assassinate someone off-guard, why haven't the various Sith subordinates throughout galactic history been able to quickly smash their Master's trachea or internal organs when they are off-guard?

Probably because internal augmentation is also a thing. Naturally stronger force users have naturally stronger passive augmentation( the reason that Jedi are largely not phased by even explosions when caught off guard) so should Sidious be able to do such a thing, his opponents can't respond in kind because his passive augmentation would probably render their efforts useless

This also varies hugely with force users. Some like Obi Wan can tank laser cannons and not be physically harmed by any noticeable margin, yet you have seen the Jedi fall to simple blaster fire in ROTS

That and some examples? I have actively looked for such cases on reading the novels but couldn't find them at all. Closest was Sidious interrupting Luke's sleep from across the galaxy
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on Sat 4 Apr 2020 - 11:05
Vader pinning Aurra Sing to the floor with the Force
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